interesting stat

[usfhawk]

The private school vs. public school debate is a bigger issue in the lower classes. Private school advocates claim that open enrollment evens the field. I agree, open enrollment has changed from what it used to be. But, has it really changed much in the lower classes? I can only speak of NW Iowa, but I don't see kids flocking to the George Little Rocks or the Central Lyons of the state.

It's hard to argue the advantages that private schools have from a numbers standpoint. No sped departments (-15-20 students) and no home school kids to claim (-5-10 students) affect numbers.

I normally don't like to get into this argument but there are advantages.

Looking back. 1A football has been dominated by private schools over the last 15 years.

11 State Titles
8 Runner Ups

FYI class 1A had 6 private schools this year.

It is concerning that such a small percentage of 1A can have such success.

 

[Lyoncounty]

and no home school kids to claim (-5-10 students) affect numbers.

Can you clarify this statement for me? Are you telling me that public school has to factor in home school students into their Beds numbers?

 

[Bulldog198240]

You certainly implied it. Not much wriggle room once you pronounce something as "nothing more".

I will admit that the demographics of most private schools are different then many publics. That doesn't mean they don't have free and reduced lunch students or special needs kids, I can guarantee you they do. It may be a smaller percentage than some public schools though. The idea that they are turning kids away who fall into those categories as neverreads suggests is just asinine though. Once people start making claims that have no basis in reality it is hard to have an actual discussion.

Let's not act like this is just a private school problem though. Let's look at the percentage of kids eligible for free and reduced lunches in some 3A schools for example. You have DCG at 16%, Pella at 16%, Gilbert all the way down at 5%, probably lower than some private schools. Then you have Perry at 59% and Storm Lake all the way at 70%. So there is a pretty huge disparity among public schools as well. Where is the outrage about their advantages.

I have always said I am willing to have this conversation, but only if we look at the whole picture. If you are really concerned about actual equality among schools when it comes to sports you must be concerned about the huge disparities found in both private and public schools. Even if you do separate out private schools there will still be a handful of public schools who have significantly more success than the others. Some schools will always have advantages over others. How long before complaints start getting lobbied against them?

Here is where I got my info: https://www.educateiowa.gov/documen...chool-k-12-students-eligible-free-and-reduced

See NeverReadthetermsofService posts...its about demographics...my analysis referring to the free and reduced lunch is to point the disparity in demographics as it applies to sports AND academics and also to the geographical area. As one poster notes Ft. Madison Holy Trinity was horrible this year, but look at their demographics they have to pull from...smaller community and very poor area. The whole point was that the private schools continue to dominate in sports and there is a direct correlation which some of you "private schoolers" continually want to deny.

Is there also a problem in the public schools?...yes there is...Look at the "arms" race in the Des Moines school with all their new athletic equipment (I'm sure this applies to academics as well) and schools like DM East are at a severe disadvantage...

Is there an easy solution , No there isn't..My solution has always been that a team like Xavier should be required to play in the class of their local public school as they have a large population base that other 3A schools do not have to pull from...at least their kids admit they transferred there for sports....3 out of starting 5 last year and 2 out of starting 5 this year....

 

[iowalongs230]

So Grand View Christian, Iowa Christian, and Ankeny Christian would have to play in 4A? Even though GVC's 9-11 enrollment was 80 for 2016-2017?

 

[iowalongs230]

....The whole point was that the private schools continue to dominate in sports...

Based on what statistics? The fact that this year 3 out of 4 classes were won by private schools in basketball? Should we look at previous years? Other sports?

...and there is a direct correlation which some of you "private schoolers" continually want to deny.

What, specifically, is the "direct correlation"? How would you define/quantify it, specifically?

 

[theocia]

Remember, this is sports that we're talking about where a small % of private schools have excelled. Almost all public schools are vastly superior in academic facilities, teacher pay, dollars for capital improvements. Things that really matter.

Does Grandview Christian even have a gym?

 

[rk#5]

The private school vs. public school debate is a bigger issue in the lower classes. Private school advocates claim that open enrollment evens the field. I agree, open enrollment has changed from what it used to be. But, has it really changed much in the lower classes? I can only speak of NW Iowa, but I don't see kids flocking to the George Little Rocks or the Central Lyons of the state.

It's hard to argue the advantages that private schools have from a numbers standpoint. No sped departments (-15-20 students) and no home school kids to claim (-5-10 students) affect numbers.

I normally don't like to get into this argument but there are advantages.

Looking back. 1A football has been dominated by private schools over the last 15 years.

11 State Titles
8 Runner Ups

FYI class 1A had 6 private schools this year.

It is concerning that such a small percentage of 1A can have such success.

3 of those 6 this year though combined to win 3 games. I only counted 10 state titles going back to 2002, but a difference of 1 doesn't change it. 3 private schools make up the teams that have won a championship since 2002. St. Albert and Regina have won a combined 9 and Western has won 1. Regina and St. Albert make up most of the runner-up places also. Most of the years teams like Unity Christian are not very good in football.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Still waiting for someone to post a reasonable solution. The Illinois multiplier? Would apply to every iowa high school changing nothing. 'Super Teams' is another good one, there are transfers, not a ton of transfers into Regina. Foreign exchange students? Regina has a bunch, full tuition paying students. The special ed is a viable discussion point. How large is that number? Why no huge spike in enrollment for these successful privates?

 

[dj1432]

Enrollment spikes would possibly mean new facilities. Privates may cap enrollment to prevent need to build?

 

[NWIAHawkfan]

Enrollment spikes would possibly mean new facilities. Privates may cap enrollment to prevent need to build?

Speaking strictly for NW IA Christian grade schools and high schools, this is a big NO. We want every student we can get and if running out of room necessitates a building project then we make it happen. Capping enrollment would be a last resort emergency option. If the school choice/voucher thing ever happens it will be interesting to see how this discussion changes.

 

[Bulldog198240]

Speaking strictly for NW IA Christian grade schools and high schools, this is a big NO. We want every student we can get and if running out of room necessitates a building project then we make it happen. Capping enrollment would be a last resort emergency option. If the school choice/voucher thing ever happens it will be interesting to see how this discussion changes.

I can't imagine the chaos if they actually have a voucher program...not just with private but can you imagine if you are an athlete/high academic achiever at say a DM East and you could go to any of the suburban schools with their facilities!

 

[iowalongs230]

You are obviously a private school supporter and I don't have the time or patience....do your own research.

Ah, ok. The accusation is made that there is a "direct correlation" between private schools and athletic success, but no evidence or data is provided to back that up. I would say it's on the people making the charge to provide the evidence.

 

[rk#5]

And you probably think privates don't recruit athletes either!...hahaha!.

Oh wait you are a private schooler,
No way you're admitting that!

You say all private schools recruit athletes, name one on western Christian's football or basketball team.

 

[Bulldog198240]

You say all private schools recruit athletes, name one on western Christian's football or basketball team.

There you go again....Did I say ALL?!!

Look, let me say where I stand once
and for all...I think some private schools have a direct athletic advantage over their competition especially in 1A, 2A, 3A....I realize this does not relate to all situations or even to every year. My view point is that private schools that reside in large metro areas have the distinct advantage of drawing from a huge student population that other schools do not ...i.e. Regina and Xavier ...and they have used that to their advantage. So I believe those schools should have to play in the class of their local public School.

I can't even speak to WC as I do not live in that part of the state and do not know anything about them. I'll leave that to someone else. I did watch their games at state and I was very impressed even after they lost some players.

 

[NWIAHawkfan]

There you go again....Did I say ALL?!!

Look, let me say where I stand once
and for all...I think some private schools have a direct athletic advantage over their competition especially in 1A, 2A, 3A....I realize this does not relate to all situations or even to every year. My view point is that private schools that reside in large metro areas have the distinct advantage of drawing from a huge student population that other schools do not ...i.e. Regina and Xavier ...and they have used that to their advantage. So I believe those schools should have to play in the class of their local public School. And I do know from experience that they do openly recruit athletes...

I can't even speak to WC as I do not live in that part of the state and do not know anything about them. I'll leave that to someone else. I did watch their games at state and I was very impressed even after they lost some players.

This is why these discussions go round and round and get nowhere on a message board. We all live in very different situations in very different parts of the state. Some rural, some urban, some small town, some Parochial, some Calvinist, etc etc. The advantages that Western and Unity have, and yes even some of us Western supporters can see it, are very different from Regina, Heelan or Xavier. A rule that minimizes that advantage in Iowa City, may be completely unapplicable in other parts of the state. If Regina has to play 4A with West then does Ankeny Christian have to play 4A with Centennial? If you apply that logic to Sioux County does Western move to 1A with Boyden Hull but Unity goes to 3A with MOCFV? Do you use a multiplier and what is it? A 1.5 multiplier this year leaves Western and Regina both in 2A and solves nothing. The recruiting argument is unwinnable. Are some private schools recruiting? Yes. Are some public schools recruiting? Yes. Are all of them? No. How do you solve the whole thing? I believe those looking at the socio economic makeup of the student body are on to something. I believe this is probably the only way to implement a policy that applies to both public and private schools and even begins to address perceived advantages one school has over another.

 

[Bulldog198240]

5/8 semifinal teams from class 1A and 2A were private schools. this is interesting because I don't think there are 60 private schools in the state total.

 

[usfhawk]

Can you clarify this statement for me? Are you telling me that public school has to factor in home school students into their Beds numbers?

Yes

 

[BlackHawkPride1]

IMO the advantage private schools have in athletics is tied more to what their enrollment consists of than whether or not they "recruit".
Special Ed is an example of a group that counts towards enrollment but more than likely doesn't contribute in a competitive setting. They certainly deserve the opportunities they get, and thankfully public schools have the funding to provide them.
I think the unspoken advantage is one they shouldn't be punished for but it's obvious- parents are invested in their children! It doesn't make them automatically better parents, but they're making a commitment which likely drives them to expect more commitment from their children. This in comparison to some families that maybe only send their kids to school because the state requires it and as a form of day care (this is awful but sadly true in some situations). This is an advantage, but shouldn't be punishable and certainly isn't quantifiable.

 

[BlackHawkPride1]

IMO the advantage private schools have in athletics is tied more to what their enrollment consists of than whether or not they "recruit".
Special Ed is an example of a group that counts towards enrollment but more than likely doesn't contribute in a competitive setting. They certainly deserve the opportunities they get, and thankfully public schools have the funding to provide them.
I think the unspoken advantage is one they shouldn't be punished for but it's obvious- parents are invested in their children! It doesn't make them automatically better parents, but they're making a commitment which likely drives them to expect more commitment from their children. This in comparison to some families that maybe only send their kids to school because the state requires it and as a form of day care (this is awful but sadly true in some situations). This is an advantage, but shouldn't be punishable and certainly isn't quantifiable.

I'm a public school guy, and have competed against private schools all my life. I'm not sure what change could be made our if it should be. But it's crazy to not admit that from an enrollment and participation/contribution % standpoint the private schools have a major advantage.

 

[Pinehawk]

People like to focus on private schools gaining kids. But, I can assure you that they lose a lot of kids to public school as well. I can name a handful of good kids who are very athletic that have recently switched to public school at 7th and 9th grade.
These kids attended private school all throughout Elementary school, but they made the change for a variety of reasons. So, it's certainly not as clear cut as some make it seem.

 

[cidhawkeye]

You say all private schools recruit athletes, name one on western Christian's football or basketball team.

All of them. Private schools recruit each and every student. They have to in order to survive.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

Not to belabor the point, but should these schools have to move up an entire class?

• Waterloo Christian, 0-22
• Hull Trinity, 2-19
• Heartland Christian, 2-17
• Cedar Valley Christian, 5-17
• Iowa Christian Academy, 9-13
• Ft. Madison Trinity, 10-12
• Storm Lake St. Mary's, 12-10

Or again GVC in football, 0-9 last year.

Again, this is anecdotal evidence. The three classes where privates have an unfair advantage due to how the numbers break down are DOMINATED by private schools. The fact that a handful of private schools didn't have a good season doesn't change that overall, publics are at a disadvantage and overall, privates do better than publics.

Nobody is saying move teams who win to a higher class. There just needs to be a multiplier to make up for the numbers disadvantages the public schools have. It's not a punishment for being good or a boost for being bad. It's just allowing the numbers to even up so a school with 400 eligible athletes isn't playing in the postseason against a school with 200 eligible athletes.

Multiplier or not, there are going to be good teams and bad teams. You don't need to wait for every single private school to have a great season in every sport to make a change.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

You certainly implied it. Not much wriggle room once you pronounce something as "nothing more".

I will admit that the demographics of most private schools are different then many publics. That doesn't mean they don't have free and reduced lunch students or special needs kids, I can guarantee you they do. It may be a smaller percentage than some public schools though. The idea that they are turning kids away who fall into those categories as neverreads suggests is just asinine though. Once people start making claims that have no basis in reality it is hard to have an actual discussion.

Let's not act like this is just a private school problem though. Let's look at the percentage of kids eligible for free and reduced lunches in some 3A schools for example. You have DCG at 16%, Pella at 16%, Gilbert all the way down at 5%, probably lower than some private schools. Then you have Perry at 59% and Storm Lake all the way at 70%. So there is a pretty huge disparity among public schools as well. Where is the outrage about their advantages.

I have always said I am willing to have this conversation, but only if we look at the whole picture. If you are really concerned about actual equality among schools when it comes to sports you must be concerned about the huge disparities found in both private and public schools. Even if you do separate out private schools there will still be a handful of public schools who have significantly more success than the others. Some schools will always have advantages over others. How long before complaints start getting lobbied against them?

Here is where I got my info: https://www.educateiowa.gov/documen...chool-k-12-students-eligible-free-and-reduced

I NEVER said privates are turning away special ed students. My entire point was public schools have a higher percentage of them.

 

[iowalongs230]

It is NOT 3 classes. 1A is not dominated by private schools. Since 1985 when Iowa went to 4 classes, this year is only the 2nd time ever a private school has won the title of the smallest classification.

And again, mentioning the teams who are doing well is also anecdotal evidence.

But I guess we don't really have that much of a beef, because I don't personally have a problem with a multiplier. However, as others have pointed out, that may or may not make a difference in classifications.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

And again, mentioning the teams who are doing well is also anecdotal evidence.

But I guess we don't really have that much of a beef, because I don't personally have a problem with a multiplier. However, as others have pointed out, that may or may not make a difference in classifications.

I don't mean to be pointing out certain schools. Overall, privates are doing better. If you put all the good teams and bad teams together, privates are doing better.

And yeah, it wouldn't necessarily even move the privates all up a class. It's not like we're saying to put them all in 4A. But it would do a lot of good in bumping up these private schools that are right at the top of their respective class.

 

[basketball777]

I'm torn on this subject. When my alma mater broke through for their first state championship, it was against a private school from one of the bigger metros that seemingly had their number. It was a nice send off to have them not only win the championship but do it against that school.

Having said that, a small private school in a big city does have an advantage over a small public open enrollment. An IC Regina, Ankeny Christian, Grand View Christian, Des Moines Christian, etc. will have an easier time getting kids to their school then a 1A public or even 2A public just because of their city's size.

Let's face it, how exactly is open enrollment going to enhance relatively rural schools like a Murray, East Union-Afton, Diaganol, Sigourney, etc. It's not like there are a lot of students in their areas to open enroll from. And there is very little in the way of family transitions / moving to those types of areas for jobs or life changes.

Those communities are considered fortunate if the stars align and a group of athletes come together for a few grades.

So are you saying there is no open enrollment to Murray? And Diagonal? You pick the smallest school in the state...not sure how they keep open with out having to consolidate....they're doing something special over there with only about 30-35 in the high school...AC and GC had to combined and they are a lot bigger than Diagonal...

 

[iowalongs230]

OK, so I ran some numbers based on the 2016-17 classifications. Using the Illinois 1.25x multiplier on non-boundaried schools (if my Excel math is correct), the following schools might have been classified differently in 16-17:

• Ft. Dodge St. Edmond with an increase from 133 to 166.3 students would jump from 1A to 2A
• Carroll Keumper with an increase from 233 to 291.3 students would be right on the very edge of jumping from 2A to 3A (but they might also have been the very last 2A school)
• Cedar Rapids Xavier with an increase from 510 to 637.5 students would jump from 3A to 4A

All other private schools would have remained in the same class.

[EDIT: Oops, just now saw Council Bluffs ST. Albert would increase from 136 to 170 and jump from 1A to 2A.]

 

[theocia]

OK, so I ran some numbers based on the 2016-17 classifications. Using the Illinois 1.25x multiplier on non-boundaried schools (if my Excel math is correct), the following schools might have been classified differently in 16-17:

• Ft. Dodge St. Edmond with an increase from 133 to 166.3 students would jump from 1A to 2A
• Carroll Keumper with an increase from 233 to 291.3 students would be right on the very edge of jumping from 2A to 3A (but they might also have been the very last 2A school)
• Cedar Rapids Xavier with an increase from 510 to 637.5 students would jump from 3A to 4A

All other private schools would have remained in the same class.

[EDIT: Oops, just now saw Council Bluffs ST. Albert would increase from 136 to 170 and jump from 1A to 2A.]

So how many titles would have been taken away and given to the less fortunate?

 

[Bbvr]

Try a 1.5 multiplier and see what you come up with

 

[iowalongs230]

I misunderstood Illinois' system. I guess it is 1.65. But they are on the extreme end of the spectrum as far as how to handle this. Here's an article that shows all 50 states and what they do.

http://highschoolsports.cleveland.c...nal-fight-between-public-and-private-schools/

Note Georgia: "Georgia: Ended a 1.5 multiplier formula for private schools in 2008 after eight years. Data showed that the multiplier did not impact the percentage of private schools winning state titles. Separation of private and public schools in the state's small-school division was approved in 2012."

 

[Lyoncounty]

Yes

I did not know that. 2 follow up questions. 1. Does the public school receive the state aid for those students? 2. Are home school students allowed to play sports in their local public school district? I like it when i learn new things

 

[theocia]

I did not know that. 2 follow up questions. 1. Does the public school receive the state aid for those students? 2. Are home school students allowed to play sports in their local public school district? I like it when i learn new things

Home-schoolers can participate in extra curricular activities @ private schools as well (if board OK's). Some do, some don't

 

[theocia]

Lyoncounty said: ↑
Can you clarify this statement for me? Are you telling me that public school has to factor in home school students into their Beds numbers?

Yes

IF they accept state $$ for that student.
They don't have to count every child in their district that doesn't attend their school.

 

[theocia]

Try a 1.5 multiplier and see what you come up with

Try 4X.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

I misunderstood Illinois' system. I guess it is 1.65. But they are on the extreme end of the spectrum as far as how to handle this. Here's an article that shows all 50 states and what they do.

http://highschoolsports.cleveland.c...nal-fight-between-public-and-private-schools/

Note Georgia: "Georgia: Ended a 1.5 multiplier formula for private schools in 2008 after eight years. Data showed that the multiplier did not impact the percentage of private schools winning state titles. Separation of private and public schools in the state's small-school division was approved in 2012."

Which doesn't make sense to me. So the private schools were just winning state titles in bigger classes? Why would you move them back down if that were the case? If Iowa put in a 1.5 multiplier and the private schools still won all three lower classes for basketball every year (say Western Christian winning 3A for example), wouldn't that prove the multiplier helped? At least then you'd have a little balance instead of Western rolling up on their quarterfinal and semifinal opponent every year and Xavier and Wahlert playing the de-facto state title game for 5 straight years.

 

[sarcastico]

I NEVER said privates are turning away special ed students. My entire point was public schools have a higher percentage of them.

Maybe I misunderstood you when you said, "Private schools don't have to take every student in" If only I had some past context to better understand that sentence. Oh wait, I remember you making this argument last year as well. Where you said the following;

"they all have that built in advantage of being able to control their enrollment, and accept the athletes while turning away the non-athletes."
"They all have the ability to control their enrollment"
"You must be naive if you don't think athletics is a reason schools keep their enrollment down"
"private schools who can keep their enrollment down all while recruiting a bunch of quality kids to the school"

Maybe you have a different definition of NEVER than I do, because you have definitely made the claim that private schools are turning away kids who are not athletes. A claim that I maintain is just asinine.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

Maybe I misunderstood you when you said, "Private schools don't have to take every student in" If only I had some past context to better understand that sentence. Oh wait, I remember you making this argument last year as well. Where you said the following;

"they all have that built in advantage of being able to control their enrollment, and accept the athletes while turning away the non-athletes."
"They all have the ability to control their enrollment"
"You must be naive if you don't think athletics is a reason schools keep their enrollment down"
"private schools who can keep their enrollment down all while recruiting a bunch of quality kids to the school"

Maybe you have a different definition of NEVER than I do, because you have definitely made the claim that private schools are turning away kids who are not athletes. A claim that I maintain is just asinine.

Alright, you caught me.

That doesn't change the bottom line though, that the demographics are different for private schools. I think my point then was that they technically COULD turn away whoever they wanted as a private school, which I believe they can.

 

[sarcastico]

Alright, you caught me.

That doesn't change the bottom line though, that the demographics are different for private schools. I think my point then was that they technically COULD turn away whoever they wanted as a private school, which I believe they can.

My point was if we are going to have this discussion let's keep in based in reality and not deal in "could". In reality private schools are not turning away kids for the sake of their athletic programs. It is a completely false argument. Like I said, Once people start making claims that have no basis in reality it is hard to have an actual discussion.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

My point was if we are going to have this discussion let's keep in based in reality and not deal in "could". In reality private schools are not turning away kids for the sake of their athletic programs. It is a completely false argument. Like I said, Once people start making claims that have no basis in reality it is hard to have an actual discussion.

Well, during this discussion I did not make that case at all. So you really dug for a way to get out of the discussion at hand.

Do you have a solution you lean towards? Are you in favor of any multiplier at all?

 

[sarcastico]

I think it would be helpful if we really understood what we are dealing with here. It is not like all private schools dominate at sports. It is undeniable that private schools have seen much success over the years. Just looking back the last 10 years there have been multiple private school champions. But when you really look at it we are talking about just a few programs who have truly dominated.

Going back to 2006 we have had 48 champions in all four classes. Of those 48 champions 17 have been private schools. Of those 17 teams 14 have been Western, Wahlert, Xavier and Heelan . So really it is a small group of highly successful programs we are talking about here.

So why are they so good? I will concede that demographics play a part. But that is not the sole reason. If it was as large a reason as some people claim all private schools would consistently be good, which is not the case. You also have to take into account coaching, which is actually a huge part of it. Look at programs like Unity and even Heelan. They were once basketball powerhouses but neither program has been back to state after replacing their head coaches. I think tradition also plays a part. Success breads success and every generation of kids who come through the program wants to continue what other's have done. I know for Western basketball is a way of life for kids. It is a year round commitment from an early age. I wasn't even that good and I did nothing but play basketball growing up. You combine that with favorable demographics and some very committed parents and the results speak for themselves. But again if it was just a demographics issue we would see similar success from every private school program, and we just don't.