You sorta did, but whatever. I am in favor of a reverse multiplier. I can agree that many private schools have a demographical advantage, but I argue that many public schools do as well. I feel that a reverse multiplier would address both those issues and provide a little more even playing field for some of our most disenfranchised schools.
interesting stat
- Thread starter LBdomination12
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I'd be cool with that. Really anything is better than the way it is now.
I don't know how it is out west with Western Christian, but on the East, the big private schools have such a glaring advantage. Seeing them just run over little schools every single year, waiting for them to finally graduate their stars and then seeing them re-load with 4A kids from other schools really takes a toll. I couldn't imagine how frustrating it is for a high school kid to learn about how their road to state got blocked by a Cedar Rapids/Dubuque/Davenport All-Star team. (Not saying all three of those schools are currently stacking, but they always seem to acquire the help they need before making their runs in a multitude of sports)
Here is some basis for you public schools have a special education programs that private schools do not it's not the private schools fault for this for it is a government funded program for public schools to teach these kids. and yes these kids count against enrollment and never compete in athletics . And one more fact the Hispanic population has increased enrollment in public schools in some cases by 40%. And very rarely do many of them compete in athletics unless maybe that school has soccer. I also agree I find it hard to believe a private school would turn away kids they need all the revenue they can get to keep the school running. So yes this is why a 1.5 multiplier is needed to balance the playing field. I know I'm talking to a brick wall here but facts are facts
I will agree with you on the Special Ed population, but not with minorities. There is no reason for them to not take part in ANY extra curricular activity. IMO, its the school job, starting with the AD to get those kids to be involved in extra curricular activities
I agree school has a part in it but I also think the parents that work 12 15 hour days and then try and bring there text kids to practice are not going to push their kids to take Sports a lot of the Hispanic kids have to work when they're done with school it still starts at home
I would LOVE to see Hull Western taken down a notch as much as the next guy but I will defend them begrudgingly on some of these points. I can't speak for the private schools in the metro areas but I've lived in NW Iowa all my life and I can tell you these three things are fact:
1) Don't ever try to tell me about the public schools in NW Iowa suffering money-wise because of the presence of private schools. If Western were to close, the districts of Rock Valley, Boyden Hull, Sheldon, etc, to name a few would have to absorb that student body and would not get one extra penny of state money as a result. Those public school districts are getting 1-student-worth of state money for every one of those resident private school kids. Kids that they don't have to actually educate. Free money if you will. It's the private school parents who are paying double, if and until the voucher bill passes.
2) The vast majority of student athletes on Western's rosters have been in the private school system since they were 5 years old. I would say all of them, and I'd very possibly be right, but there may be an exception. It's actually very much more common for kids to go to private school through 8th grade and then transfer to public high school. This kind of puts the damper on the recruiting theory unless a parent wants to wager about 50K over 12 years that their kid might possibly be good at BB or VB. And that would mean you like High School sports way more than I do. Which brings me to my final point.
3) None of these kids are getting a free ride there folks. You go there, and your parents will pay the tuition unless their rich aunt loves watching teenagers play basketball enough to pony up. The school board consists of parents and not just athletes parents. Do you really think that Mr Smith paying 5K/yr to send his violin playing kid there is going to stand for Mr Jones skating by for free because his son is 6'7" Give me a break, not happening.
Western's constant success in BB and VB is due to 1) Those dutch kids are tall, they just are. 2) They've built such a winning tradition that these kids live and breath this from the time they are in Kindergarten. 3)The emphasis that Western puts on sports and winning is unreal. Actually it's sad really, but that's another argument for another time.
1) Don't ever try to tell me about the public schools in NW Iowa suffering money-wise because of the presence of private schools. If Western were to close, the districts of Rock Valley, Boyden Hull, Sheldon, etc, to name a few would have to absorb that student body and would not get one extra penny of state money as a result. Those public school districts are getting 1-student-worth of state money for every one of those resident private school kids. Kids that they don't have to actually educate. Free money if you will. It's the private school parents who are paying double, if and until the voucher bill passes.
2) The vast majority of student athletes on Western's rosters have been in the private school system since they were 5 years old. I would say all of them, and I'd very possibly be right, but there may be an exception. It's actually very much more common for kids to go to private school through 8th grade and then transfer to public high school. This kind of puts the damper on the recruiting theory unless a parent wants to wager about 50K over 12 years that their kid might possibly be good at BB or VB. And that would mean you like High School sports way more than I do. Which brings me to my final point.
3) None of these kids are getting a free ride there folks. You go there, and your parents will pay the tuition unless their rich aunt loves watching teenagers play basketball enough to pony up. The school board consists of parents and not just athletes parents. Do you really think that Mr Smith paying 5K/yr to send his violin playing kid there is going to stand for Mr Jones skating by for free because his son is 6'7" Give me a break, not happening.
Western's constant success in BB and VB is due to 1) Those dutch kids are tall, they just are. 2) They've built such a winning tradition that these kids live and breath this from the time they are in Kindergarten. 3)The emphasis that Western puts on sports and winning is unreal. Actually it's sad really, but that's another argument for another time.
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I've seen plenty of students from different countries pop into public schools and play so I don't think that should be taken into consideration at all. But I do agree that 1.5 is about right, and as many have pointed out, that doesn't even bump that many schools up (maybe in girls' sports or football it will bump more because of the increased number of classes). All this really does competitiveness-wise is serve as a deterrent for a private school to have one of the biggest BEDS reports in their class, because in that case they have WAY more students to choose from. Even with a 1.5 multiplier, I fully expect private schools to have more kids who are eligible for sports and thereby continue to win far more often than public schools.
I am not arguing that at all. It is a clear advantage for private schools. I now live in Perry which has one of the largest Hispanic populations in the state. So I know all too well the challenges that creates. Which is actually part of why I try to include public schools in the conversation and am an advocate for a reverse multiplier.
Sure a 1.5 multiplier would even the playing field between publics and privates, but we would still be dealing with an incredibly uneven playing field among public schools. I showed earlier in this thread just how huge the disparity is between districts like DCG and Pella vs Perry and Storm Lake. So if we are going to engage in a major step to even out the playing field in Iowa I would like to see us address this issue as well.
There are two problems with that. First off most immigrant families and struggling to establish themselves in a new country. That means they are typically poor families working long hours and extra curriculars are not a priority.
Second you need kids who actually care about the sports we care about. To expect kids who come from a culture that has no experience with football or basketball to just pick up the sports and be good is asking a lot. Even if the kids play, and Perry has quite a few minorities who do, they have no background with the sport and are starting from scratch. Perry struggles really hard to get kids to go out for football every year, but had 90 kids go out for soccer last season. It isn't that they don't want to participate as much as they have little interest in what are typical American sports.
Here's another article that addresses this issue, talks about what some states do, and what has and has not seemed to work.
https://www.nfhs.org/articles/state-associations-continue-quest-for-competitive-balance-of-schools/
https://www.nfhs.org/articles/state-associations-continue-quest-for-competitive-balance-of-schools/
I think Minnesota may use a formula based on the number of kids in school districts that receive free/reduced meals. I live in Rock Valley, have 3 kids in the public school system (I love our school), and had a HUGE eye opener 2 weeks ago at our band/choir concerts. Our school was running a powerpoint presentation before the concert, highlighting the many good things currently happening in our school system (enrollment growth, adding teachers, etc.). In our Elementary, currently 44% of the students receive free or reduced meals. In the Jr-Sr High School, that drops to 36.8%. I'm all for a growing school district and our growing community, it is a great thing and which we are blessed with, but when 40% of the kids (and their parents) are worried about making ends meet more that participating on a sports team.....And because of this growth Rock Valley is now one of the smallest 2A schools in the state. Growth is good, but....
To add.....Using Rock Valley (the town) as an example. My daughter is a freshman. I consider her grade at school to have 3 average/above average female athletes (likely playing/starting varsity BB next year as sophomores) and the rest of her class will fill the remaining spots in future years and we'll be OK down the road and compete in most cases. I can name 3 average/above average freshman girls from Rock Valley that also go to Western, and I'm probably forgetting someone. Its simply numbers. We get diluted and Western maintains. Rock Valley, Hull, Sheldon, part/some of Sioux Center(?), Sanborn, and maybe some others have Christian elementary/middle schools that go to Western as freshman. I have nothing against them, just wish we didn't always have to go through them to get anywhere!! That part I have issue with because when you look at our school and their school, you're not comparing apples to apples. The bad part, most of us (Western Christian friends/colleagues and parents whose kids played together in Rock Valley Summer Rec)(My wife graduated from Western as well) agree on that premise here, we just don't know how to fix it.
Since 4th grade, the most girls out for volleyball in my daughter's class was 10 (now down to 5) and our Freshman/JV girls BB teams had to intertwine teams to field teams this fall/winter and had to drop some Freshman games due to the number of games played. Never had more than 8 girls on the combined team this year.
I probably rambled on to much, but I think plenty of people would entertain a change if it made sense.
To add.....Using Rock Valley (the town) as an example. My daughter is a freshman. I consider her grade at school to have 3 average/above average female athletes (likely playing/starting varsity BB next year as sophomores) and the rest of her class will fill the remaining spots in future years and we'll be OK down the road and compete in most cases. I can name 3 average/above average freshman girls from Rock Valley that also go to Western, and I'm probably forgetting someone. Its simply numbers. We get diluted and Western maintains. Rock Valley, Hull, Sheldon, part/some of Sioux Center(?), Sanborn, and maybe some others have Christian elementary/middle schools that go to Western as freshman. I have nothing against them, just wish we didn't always have to go through them to get anywhere!! That part I have issue with because when you look at our school and their school, you're not comparing apples to apples. The bad part, most of us (Western Christian friends/colleagues and parents whose kids played together in Rock Valley Summer Rec)(My wife graduated from Western as well) agree on that premise here, we just don't know how to fix it.
Since 4th grade, the most girls out for volleyball in my daughter's class was 10 (now down to 5) and our Freshman/JV girls BB teams had to intertwine teams to field teams this fall/winter and had to drop some Freshman games due to the number of games played. Never had more than 8 girls on the combined team this year.
I probably rambled on to much, but I think plenty of people would entertain a change if it made sense.
I'm not sure I understand the intent of your questions? Feel free to clarify if I've missed your point.
I was not implying there isn't open enrollment to those schools. Rather, the opportunity to open enroll there, probably isn't as great as it would be for schools in a metro area.
My overall point was, rural 1A schools will not have the number of students transitioning into the district, and likely not have comparably open enrollment options when compared to a 1A private in a metro like a Des Moines, Sioux City, CR or IC area. In other words, there are likely more jobs and family opportunities moving to a Des Moines than a small town like a Sigourney or whatever rural 1A/2A school you'd like to use as an example.
I simply picked a handful of rural 1A schools as an example. Feel free to pick any rural 1A school (Winfield Mt. Union, Waco, Pekin (Packwood), Cardinal-Eldon, etc.) and use them instead.
These Rock Valley girls that you lost to Western. Is their church affiliation CRC? Or RCA, Lutheran, etc?
Because if it was CRC, you never had them to begin with.
And I'm no Western fan (you like them more than me it sounds like), I just know how Dutch churches relate to schools.
Because if it was CRC, you never had them to begin with.
And I'm no Western fan (you like them more than me it sounds like), I just know how Dutch churches relate to schools.
If you use Free & reduced lunches, I think it should pick a number say 35%, if F&R is lower your BEDS # gets elevated 2% for every percent from 35%. If F&R is higher your BEDS number gets reduced by the same ratio. Would be effectively a 1.7 multilayer if a school had 0% F&R. But a Des Moines H.S. would be eligible for 8 player with 85% F&R and 0 BEDS.
Even if only 1% from the average would cut some schools beds numbers in half, but would be the 1.35 multiple that corresponds with the article linked above that stated in MO I think that said privates had 35% higher participation. Maybe you have to limit it to a single class bump up or down.
I don't like the method of using a reducer as you can only go down so far. I think it's more fair to push some up and allow some to go down.
Even if only 1% from the average would cut some schools beds numbers in half, but would be the 1.35 multiple that corresponds with the article linked above that stated in MO I think that said privates had 35% higher participation. Maybe you have to limit it to a single class bump up or down.
I don't like the method of using a reducer as you can only go down so far. I think it's more fair to push some up and allow some to go down.
That's right.
How many kids went to RV Christian & switched to the public school after 6th or 8th grade? <My guess: 3-5 per class>
How many went to RV Elementary and then switched to Western? <Zero, maybe 1>
It's the same for all area communities. The public schools gain kids from the privates, not the other way around.
No one is switching for sports.
I was talking the town of Rock Valley. We didn't lose them to Western, they were raised in the Christian Schools, so no drama involved
The girls played Summer Rec ball together....but my point is when you take our town's kids (girls in this case) and divide them into other schools, Rock Valley is still left with 3 and Western gets those 3, plus 3 from Hull, plus 3 from Sheldon, etc.Agree.
1) Don't want kids that are already at a disadvantage, to think themselves as less than others.
2) Don't equate finances with athletic talent.
Minnesota does the reverse system and huge intercity schools mop the floor with little rural communities come tourney time. Exact opposite of what was wanted.
I agree with what you're saying....I don't see anyone switching for sports. The only one I can think of was Tyson Kooima, but that was for him to have the opportunity play football for his brother. Completely understandable in my eyes. Family.
Yes, despite my distaste in other matters involving this school, I don't believe there are free-rides. These kids are in the private school system from kindergarten. Pretty tough sell to tell a public school parent to pay that $ to switch just for HS sports
Not sure on that one, there always was two separate Hull private elementary schools feeding Western. Hull Chr and Hull Prot. Hull Prot now feeds Trinity (not Lutheran by the way, just Christian).
Totally speculating but maybe the Hull Prot people wanted the main focus to be God in their Christian High School instead of winning at sports. No idea. Maybe somebody more knowledgeable will reply.
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You can accuse Western of many things, but not having God at the center of all they do is not one of them. If all Western really cared about was winning they wouldn't have just suspended 4 kids for the two biggest games of the season. Don't even start with that crap.
Trinity Christian is not at all Lutheran. It is affiliated with the Protestant Reformed Church which is a very small and conservative church body. Much more conservative than the Christian Reformed Church that Western is affiliated with, and that is saying something. As a church body they wanted their own school so they started Trinity. I think their first class was like 5 kids. Now they are probably up to like 15-20 a class, so still very small. All of their students come out of that one small denomination though.
Trinity Christian is not at all Lutheran. It is affiliated with the Protestant Reformed Church which is a very small and conservative church body. Much more conservative than the Christian Reformed Church that Western is affiliated with, and that is saying something. As a church body they wanted their own school so they started Trinity. I think their first class was like 5 kids. Now they are probably up to like 15-20 a class, so still very small. All of their students come out of that one small denomination though.
I liked the idea of a reverse multiplier mainly because it was the best idea I had heard in dealing with the problem. I like this better. I would be open to Iowa looking into something along these lines. It would do a good job at dealing with both the private school issue as well as helping schools in poorer areas have a chance to compete.
There you go grindit, I thought somebody more knowledgeable than me could shed light on the conversation. Thanks sarcastico!
Hey, by the way, how did your "chapel of praise" for the win go? To God be the glory? Was he rooting for a Wolfpack win the whole time? Did the old coach (the legend) show up to get his feet bathed in precious oils? Haha, pathetic. It's about the win baby.
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Listen, I've been defending Western against this BS that they give kids free rides and pull the best athletes out of local public schools. That's because it just doesn't happen. These kids have been in the western-bound private school system since they were born. Western has all its success solely because they have a culture of sports and winning that is so pervasive that even the little kids are just mesmerized by it.
But you gotta call a spade a spade. I have relatives that have currently and in the past had kids in Western. Their kids aren't even the elite and they are just consumed by it. It's just the culture. It is what it is.
The old BB coach was the Iowa version of Bobby knight, his behavior on the court was embarrassing. It was bad recently but was really bad in the 80's and 90's. He was worshipped.... Adored. Overlooked because why? Wins. Choking players, swearing at score keepers.....Not very Christian is it? Just win baby.
But you gotta call a spade a spade. I have relatives that have currently and in the past had kids in Western. Their kids aren't even the elite and they are just consumed by it. It's just the culture. It is what it is.
The old BB coach was the Iowa version of Bobby knight, his behavior on the court was embarrassing. It was bad recently but was really bad in the 80's and 90's. He was worshipped.... Adored. Overlooked because why? Wins. Choking players, swearing at score keepers.....Not very Christian is it? Just win baby.
Matt Mims...He was a freshman and his brother was a senior when they transferred from Prairie......Burger from last year came at some point, not sure but i was told before his freshman year...
Ancedotal evidence, the current class of seniors at Regina went from 64 to 48 kids between 6th and 7th grade, probably kicked the non athletic kids out to keep numbers down. Can't apply the Illinois multiplier because all Iowa schools are non boundary schools. Still waiting to see the answer to the 'what is the goal of the multiplier and where has it achieved that goal?'
I'm just wondering with all the success Western has , how does Boyden Hull still have that much success also (albeit not as much as Western)? It seems like there is just an abundance of talent to go around in that neck of the woods. Does Boyden Hull recruit? I honestly don't know.
No recruiting necessary. Hull just loves it's basketball. It really is just a culture there. The Des Moines Register actually did a whole article about this very topic last year with the appropriate title, The Iowa town where basketball is king. Be sure to watch the video with the article where they show the full court gym a guy built in his machine shed.
Check it out; http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2016/03/15/iowa-town-where-basketball-king/80864594/
I'm old so this is along time ago, but some of the best basketball was played in the park in Hull. Great pickup basketball. I have no idea if thats still the case, but we had a lot of fun there back in the olden days
http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/SectionProcess.asp
Minnesota if over 50% Free & Reduced the school may ask to go down one class.
Minnesota if over 50% Free & Reduced the school may ask to go down one class.
I played many a pickup game in that park myself. That was 15 years ago though, but knowing Hull I am sure those hoops are still getting plenty of use.
This is accurate. Must public schools have a few home school students. Some times these students participate, but in most cases they do not participate in athletics. Public school do receive funds for these students.
For one thing WC kids are from multiple school districts- Sioux Center, Rock Valley, West Lyon, Central Lyon, GLR, Sheldon, etc...
But there's no denying bball is in the blood of those in Hull and Sioux County. Genetics are a big thing! Dutchman are tall with unusually long arms besides. And oh by the way, they're extremely competitive in everything they do and stubborn to a fault. Good qualities in athletics!
Is there a way to determine how many kids open enroll to a district?
With Murray, no first hand knowledge, I heard they encourage athletes from the area to come and enroll in Murray...when my son played them a few years back in 8-man fball, Murray had 40+ players on their sideline to our 20..very well ran program at Murray...interested to know how many students open enroll to Murray which may or may not be athletes..
I can't believe more 1A-2A schools near a large metro area don't have more athletes transferring in because of playing time in the 4A schools...some 4A schools have freshman D teams with 20+ players only getting 5 or so games a year...tough to play at 4A level...except paying double for education deters a lot....or on the flip side exposure for the good athletes makes them transfer out of the smaller private school for the college looks in a 3A-4A school...
Good questions. I'm not at all familiar with Murray's situation and know you were hearing it 2nd hand. If that is the case with Murray, I had no idea and wouldn't have used them as an example. It's a bit surprising if true.
There was a Murray poster on here earlier in the season. Maybe they'll reply?
So, Murray started with 264, had 5 opt out and 1 tuition out for 258. Then open enrolled 62 to get to 320. More than I would've thought or guessed - maybe my assumptions were off??
Lot of kids open enrolling to Urbandale.
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