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Dowling Valley Final?

I say this regularly and I will say this in response to several tweets I saw last night and messages on here of "shouldn't they be every year?"

You can't on one hand talk about how Dowling never won a state title before 2000 and then say "well the state has to do something about private schools." Where was this talk when Dowling didn't make the playoffs in 2002 or 2003? Or when Dowling didn't make a title game between 2001 and 2010?

Dowling didn't suddenly become private. These arguments seem hollow when they can only be applied while cherry picking ebbs and flows of the football program.
I can say Dowling and Valley never won a State title before 2000, I never singled out Dowling and always brought Valley in the conversation.

I never said the state had to do anything with private school at any level to keep things from being so lopsided.

You think this is only about Dowling, but it is not. Tell me who the state champions were from 2000 on up that were not Dowling or Valley.

You can refuse to believe this if you want. This Dowling/Valley finals is going to be few before the Iowa Athletic Association steps in again and they revert to the East/West split once again
 
This year I’d agree they’re the pick of the litter but then again shouldn’t they be every year?

I think they win by a small margin on Friday, however, I think this is the last year of "the streak." I know they get a few difference making transfers every year, but they sure lose about everybody next year. Dowling's OL and running game make them go every year, but they lose all of their OL, top two RB's and QB, too much to overcome, even with a few unknown transfers they get
 
Give me a break! For crying out loud, did Williams transfer to Dowling (or countless others over the past decade) to increase their devotion to the Blessed Sacrament? I wish it were so but just be honest, it’s the only Catholic HS in the greater DM area and happens to love it’s FB success...so just admit they fill the holes as needed, period! As for Valley, they have twice the enrollment of Cedar Falls, Bett or CRK, so congratulations for pasting the smaller schools. Yeah, I’m beyond fed up with the disparity which has been on display for the past decade, it’s high time for the serfs to rebel!

Reasoned-on the one hand, Dowling, being a private school, can draw students from all over the metro, but with open enrollment policies at public schools, students sometimes CHOOSE to transfer to public schools as well, for either academics, other reasons, and yes, sometimes sports (see Valley and Roosevelt basketball programs the past few years). Do you want to ban private schools? The parents sending their kids to these schools still pay local property taxes that go to the local school district, but they decide to invest their own money in a private education (although, not to start a debate, but perhaps churches/religious institutions in particular should not be tax exempt as they are? I don't know the answer to that question).

I think if you look at the data, you would find the vast majority of football players for Dowling in particular come from the K-8 parochial schools in the metro area, and a sizable minority decide to come to Dowling from public middle schools all over the metro, either freshmen year or later, for various reasons or their parents were planning on the switch once their kids reached high school because they couldn't afford K-8 parochial but then want their kids at Dowling.

Truly, most of the students at Dowling (and Xavier and many other parochial schools around the state) aren't actively recruited by coaches, their parents just have a higher SES and were planning on sending their kids there, which is also why parents CHOOSE to and have the ability to choose high SES districts to live in Ankeny Centennial/Waukee/Johnston districts, which tend to have money to invest in sports programs, but also their teachers, extracurriculars, facilities, and this also correlates with having strong communities. Also, realize public schools districts aren't really fair (although I believe the state of Iowa guarantees a minimum of funding if the local properties tax revenues are too low), because houses and neighborhoods tend to get built by developers and neighbors and homes/communities tend to be similar in SES. Look at the various mini mansions (and actual mansions) in WDM, Waukee, Johnston, Ankeny, Bettendorf, Iowa City-because many of the households have high incomes, they own more expensive property, and therefore the schools get more money AND this is also compounded by parents with more disposable income to invest in their children's athletic development or to donate even more money and energy to school programs! So if anything, you should be raging about the vast inequalities between DMPS and rural/poor school districts that don't have the same funding/are plagued by poverty, lack of community investment, and lack of opportunities as the kids at Dowling but also Waukee, WDM, Ankeny, Cedar Falls, Bettendorf, IC West, etc. These inequalities reflect wider population/demographic trends in society, as seen through Robert Putnam's work (Bowling Alone and his more recent " Our Kids", which denotes the widening wealth gap in the USA with a handful of thriving upper middle class communities that are separated from the have nots). Taken altogether, all those schools blow DMPS schools out of the water, despite DM East and DM Lincoln being in the top 5 largest high schools in the state by population depending on the year. Do you think the people in Cedar Falls/Bettendorf are really the serfs if we are looking at the broader picture?

But going back to your main argument about Williams, when it comes to Dowling, there are a few things at work as I see it: 1) Students like Williams are attracted to the school for its football prowess but perhaps others reasons as well, just as some parents pick their homes because of the school district (for example, my friend who chose parochial schools and then Dowling because he was bullied at public schools), and remember, although an overused phrase, lets remember 'it is a free country': does Gavin Williams somehow owe his athletic prowess to the Southeast Polk school district? He can do what we wants, just as we allow our kids to go to whatever college they want to/get accepted into, work where they want, and when we as adults we consider and take better job offers that are good for our families and ourselves (often in new locations), we move-so maybe chill out a bit and realize he is a young kid and he had an opportunity and took it. Maybe he owes something to his community, but to what extent? Maybe he didn't go to Dowling for religion, but more students (and parents) than you realize send their kids their because it is private and they can afford it-although there is a minority of super Catholic families at Dowling, many are nominal Catholics or Christians (like the rest of America, and there are plenty of increasingly secular families) that don't really go to church and aren't that interested in religion, or only vaguely. As a graduate of Dowling, my parents saw it more as a private school (and investment in my future) with a religion class, as studies show that one of the most important decision our parents can make for their children are their sociocultural surroundings, and in particular, who will be our friends/peers as our peers habits will influence us and our futures, see literally any book on social psychology, emotional contagion, etc. ((seriously, I often think of where I would be if I was sent to the local public school which was not well funded and had fights and gangs-many of my friends who went to the k-8 parochial school and then to the local public schools that had lower SES, on average, tended to not go to nor graduate from university, whereas the one's that went to the high SES public schools often went to university)).

2) On the other hand, although Dowling doesn't actively recruit to my knowledge, it is clever/smart in many ways: it has a very strong youth football program for kids from ages 6 up, as well as their basketball youth program (used to be called M.A.C. in my day, or Maroon Athletic Club), and they make relationships with families from all over the metro and create summer teams/AAU teams at a young age so even if parents didn't think about parochial schools, they start to think about it more and some switch their kids into the parochial schools. So one could argue that this is a subtle form of recruiting, as they harness the relationship at a young age, and yes, sometimes these students then might get a scholarship because of low SES when they go to Dowling as many who get scholarships for low SES but don't play sports (or, I hope its still not a practice, but they would sometimes have these students work after school to pay off some of their tuition), and then they have to keep their grades up or they lose the scholarship (I remember friends, mostly non-athletes on scholarship because they had a low SES, getting yelled at to keep their grades up). However, again, the VAST majority of players come from parochial k-8 schools and were planning on Dowling all along (if you are Catholic, the diocese covers 30-40 percent of the tuition costs for you as an incentive to go there, depending on the year/coffers). Other students chose to go to Dowling as a high school for other reasons, such as more personal attention, academic reputation (there has been quite an influx of wealth throughout the metro, and sometimes these parents just want a private school). As many have said, it is more about SES-the parents that were already going to send their kids to Dowling have a generally higher SES, and therefore can pay for the tuition at k-8 schools and Dowling, and therefore are also more likely to invest in their sports program and the development of their children's abilities, whether it be through AAU, Summer camps, special trainers, etc. Again, THIS is the same as many strong public schools and I'd like to point out how many suburban schools in the metro have really close football games with Dowling, and in nearly every sport, many are on par-Dowling hasn't won a basketball championship since like the 70s (at least for boys).

Remember, Catholic schools (depending on the state and federal policies), get little to no government funding, so although the parents have SES, the school itself often doesn't have anything near the resources of a typical public school (and the teachers are paid less). So, when discussing resources in particular, Ankeny, Waukee, Johnston, Cedar Falls, Bettendorf, Iowa City and other wealthy districts actually have MUCH more money (from property taxes) to support programs and can pay their coaches more (in general), so although you have a point with Valley's very slight advantage in population pool in particular, which I will not disagree with, there is no reason that Waukee, Johnston, and Ankeny can't be on par with Dowling or Valley, especially as they grow, and again, there is open enrollment. I imagine if Waukee starts dominating in football or some other sport (again, see how some students have moved from public to public for basketball in the metro), kids would transfer there or parents would choose to move to the district, but as I have mentioned earlier, once they split up and have more than one high school, that splits up the talent.

Overall, if students/families want to choose a private school for any reason and it will be good for their futures, whether it be sports, academics, extracurriculars, whatever-who are we to stop that personal decision? Who are we to stop the open enrollment policies of the public schools? Perhaps being private gives Dowling an advantage, but it already has a huge advantage just like all the other high SES school districts especially comparing to the poverty stricken districts and communities not just in 4a, but in rural communities as well, so we must look at the larger picture.

This makes me think that perhaps it is the tradition of Dowling football, the coaching (I think this is at least a partial factor), and the very strong community (despite being non-religious myself, religion can be a powerful way for groups to cooperate efficiently, or as some psychologists and anthropologists argue, biological and cultural evolution work at the same time and perhaps religion is an adaptation to get groups to cooperate and cohere, but who knows?) that increases Dowling's already high SES advantage (which they share with Waukee/CF/Bettendorf) and gives them a slight edge, but who knows? Wouldn't one argue that Cedar Falls and Iowa City have an advantage being exposed to and integrated with the resources, coaching, etc. of Division 1 football programs? I imagine that might be a factor but I don't see many talking about it.

Anyways, sorry for the long rant, but I think it is inappropriate to go after a high school kid and his personal decision on which school to attend, and although you have a point to an extent, there are a lot of factors (mentioned above) that I think would have helped you come to a more " reasoned" analysis. Perhaps the best way forward, as many have said, is a 5a program and also a rethinking of how we design cities and communities as well as funding for schools.
 
Reasoned-on the one hand, Dowling, being a private school, can draw students from all over the metro, but with open enrollment policies at public schools, students sometimes CHOOSE to transfer to public schools as well, for either academics, other reasons, and yes, sometimes sports (see Valley and Roosevelt basketball programs the past few years). Do you want to ban private schools? The parents sending their kids to these schools still pay local property taxes that go to the local school district, but they decide to invest their own money in a private education (although, not to start a debate, but perhaps churches/religious institutions in particular should not be tax exempt as they are? I don't know the answer to that question).

I think if you look at the data, you would find the vast majority of football players for Dowling in particular come from the K-8 parochial schools in the metro area, and a sizable minority decide to come to Dowling from public middle schools all over the metro, either freshmen year or later, for various reasons or their parents were planning on the switch once their kids reached high school because they couldn't afford K-8 parochial but then want their kids at Dowling.

Truly, most of the students at Dowling (and Xavier and many other parochial schools around the state) aren't actively recruited by coaches, their parents just have a higher SES and were planning on sending their kids there, which is also why parents CHOOSE to and have the ability to choose high SES districts to live in Ankeny Centennial/Waukee/Johnston districts, which tend to have money to invest in sports programs, but also their teachers, extracurriculars, facilities, and this also correlates with having strong communities. Also, realize public schools districts aren't really fair (although I believe the state of Iowa guarantees a minimum of funding if the local properties tax revenues are too low), because houses and neighborhoods tend to get built by developers and neighbors and homes/communities tend to be similar in SES. Look at the various mini mansions (and actual mansions) in WDM, Waukee, Johnston, Ankeny, Bettendorf, Iowa City-because many of the households have high incomes, they own more expensive property, and therefore the schools get more money AND this is also compounded by parents with more disposable income to invest in their children's athletic development or to donate even more money and energy to school programs! So if anything, you should be raging about the vast inequalities between DMPS and rural/poor school districts that don't have the same funding/are plagued by poverty, lack of community investment, and lack of opportunities as the kids at Dowling but also Waukee, WDM, Ankeny, Cedar Falls, Bettendorf, IC West, etc. These inequalities reflect wider population/demographic trends in society, as seen through Robert Putnam's work (Bowling Alone and his more recent " Our Kids", which denotes the widening wealth gap in the USA with a handful of thriving upper middle class communities that are separated from the have nots). Taken altogether, all those schools blow DMPS schools out of the water, despite DM East and DM Lincoln being in the top 5 largest high schools in the state by population depending on the year. Do you think the people in Cedar Falls/Bettendorf are really the serfs if we are looking at the broader picture?

But going back to your main argument about Williams, when it comes to Dowling, there are a few things at work as I see it: 1) Students like Williams are attracted to the school for its football prowess but perhaps others reasons as well, just as some parents pick their homes because of the school district (for example, my friend who chose parochial schools and then Dowling because he was bullied at public schools), and remember, although an overused phrase, lets remember 'it is a free country': does Gavin Williams somehow owe his athletic prowess to the Southeast Polk school district? He can do what we wants, just as we allow our kids to go to whatever college they want to/get accepted into, work where they want, and when we as adults we consider and take better job offers that are good for our families and ourselves (often in new locations), we move-so maybe chill out a bit and realize he is a young kid and he had an opportunity and took it. Maybe he owes something to his community, but to what extent? Maybe he didn't go to Dowling for religion, but more students (and parents) than you realize send their kids their because it is private and they can afford it-although there is a minority of super Catholic families at Dowling, many are nominal Catholics or Christians (like the rest of America, and there are plenty of increasingly secular families) that don't really go to church and aren't that interested in religion, or only vaguely. As a graduate of Dowling, my parents saw it more as a private school (and investment in my future) with a religion class, as studies show that one of the most important decision our parents can make for their children are their sociocultural surroundings, and in particular, who will be our friends/peers as our peers habits will influence us and our futures, see literally any book on social psychology, emotional contagion, etc. ((seriously, I often think of where I would be if I was sent to the local public school which was not well funded and had fights and gangs-many of my friends who went to the k-8 parochial school and then to the local public schools that had lower SES, on average, tended to not go to nor graduate from university, whereas the one's that went to the high SES public schools often went to university)).

2) On the other hand, although Dowling doesn't actively recruit to my knowledge, it is clever/smart in many ways: it has a very strong youth football program for kids from ages 6 up, as well as their basketball youth program (used to be called M.A.C. in my day, or Maroon Athletic Club), and they make relationships with families from all over the metro and create summer teams/AAU teams at a young age so even if parents didn't think about parochial schools, they start to think about it more and some switch their kids into the parochial schools. So one could argue that this is a subtle form of recruiting, as they harness the relationship at a young age, and yes, sometimes these students then might get a scholarship because of low SES when they go to Dowling as many who get scholarships for low SES but don't play sports (or, I hope its still not a practice, but they would sometimes have these students work after school to pay off some of their tuition), and then they have to keep their grades up or they lose the scholarship (I remember friends, mostly non-athletes on scholarship because they had a low SES, getting yelled at to keep their grades up). However, again, the VAST majority of players come from parochial k-8 schools and were planning on Dowling all along (if you are Catholic, the diocese covers 30-40 percent of the tuition costs for you as an incentive to go there, depending on the year/coffers). Other students chose to go to Dowling as a high school for other reasons, such as more personal attention, academic reputation (there has been quite an influx of wealth throughout the metro, and sometimes these parents just want a private school). As many have said, it is more about SES-the parents that were already going to send their kids to Dowling have a generally higher SES, and therefore can pay for the tuition at k-8 schools and Dowling, and therefore are also more likely to invest in their sports program and the development of their children's abilities, whether it be through AAU, Summer camps, special trainers, etc. Again, THIS is the same as many strong public schools and I'd like to point out how many suburban schools in the metro have really close football games with Dowling, and in nearly every sport, many are on par-Dowling hasn't won a basketball championship since like the 70s (at least for boys).

Remember, Catholic schools (depending on the state and federal policies), get little to no government funding, so although the parents have SES, the school itself often doesn't have anything near the resources of a typical public school (and the teachers are paid less). So, when discussing resources in particular, Ankeny, Waukee, Johnston, Cedar Falls, Bettendorf, Iowa City and other wealthy districts actually have MUCH more money (from property taxes) to support programs and can pay their coaches more (in general), so although you have a point with Valley's very slight advantage in population pool in particular, which I will not disagree with, there is no reason that Waukee, Johnston, and Ankeny can't be on par with Dowling or Valley, especially as they grow, and again, there is open enrollment. I imagine if Waukee starts dominating in football or some other sport (again, see how some students have moved from public to public for basketball in the metro), kids would transfer there or parents would choose to move to the district, but as I have mentioned earlier, once they split up and have more than one high school, that splits up the talent.

Overall, if students/families want to choose a private school for any reason and it will be good for their futures, whether it be sports, academics, extracurriculars, whatever-who are we to stop that personal decision? Who are we to stop the open enrollment policies of the public schools? Perhaps being private gives Dowling an advantage, but it already has a huge advantage just like all the other high SES school districts especially comparing to the poverty stricken districts and communities not just in 4a, but in rural communities as well, so we must look at the larger picture.

This makes me think that perhaps it is the tradition of Dowling football, the coaching (I think this is at least a partial factor), and the very strong community (despite being non-religious myself, religion can be a powerful way for groups to cooperate efficiently, or as some psychologists and anthropologists argue, biological and cultural evolution work at the same time and perhaps religion is an adaptation to get groups to cooperate and cohere, but who knows?) that increases Dowling's already high SES advantage (which they share with Waukee/CF/Bettendorf) and gives them a slight edge, but who knows? Wouldn't one argue that Cedar Falls and Iowa City have an advantage being exposed to and integrated with the resources, coaching, etc. of Division 1 football programs? I imagine that might be a factor but I don't see many talking about it.

Anyways, sorry for the long rant, but I think it is inappropriate to go after a high school kid and his personal decision on which school to attend, and although you have a point to an extent, there are a lot of factors (mentioned above) that I think would have helped you come to a more " reasoned" analysis. Perhaps the best way forward, as many have said, is a 5a program and also a rethinking of how we design cities and communities as well as funding for schools.
I haven't seen where anyone is trying to disclude Dowling or Private Schools. At the End of the Day you still have to put 11 guys on the field and face off.

You have a point of Basketball, how can a Cedar Falls team won back to back state championships with everything that's been discussed, it has to be coaching
 
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DM East and Lincoln may have large Population, but they also have some of the smallest rosters in the state.

People just don't get the point, we went to the East/West split because the Eastern teams met in the finals 6 times before they went to the Split. The East/ West split at least put a team from each side of the state in the finals.

I can tell you from what I've seen in the past, they will do it again and if you can read. You will see the RPI is a two year experiment. After this season they will decide to keep it, tweak it or leave it alone.

It doesn't even have to be a Dowling/ Valley finals, it could be a Ankeny/ Marshalltown finals to take us back to the East/West split
 
db1280, thank you for a well thought out and comprehensive response. If my previous post gave the impression I was going after the transfer student, it wasn’t meant to be, he’s not the one who makes that decision it’s the parents/guardians who do. Although thinking back to my HS years I’d never have considered transferring from my friends (even on a losing team) in search of a ring, but that’s just me. I’m also not anti-parochial, quite opposite, my kids attended Catholic schools until HS and believe faith formation is the most important “subject” for them (recognizing this must begin and end in the home). Again, I’m not advocating punishing DHS for their success, quite the opposite. I agree with Coach White (CRK), Dowling & Valley are the New England & Alabama of IA, the rest of the state needs to figure out how to compete...or not. However, tacit condoning of schools with vastly larger enrollments or advantageous student athlete recruitment does not bode well for a harmonious prep athletic system.
 
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People just don't get the point, we went to the East/West split because the Eastern teams met in the finals 6 times before they went to the Split. The East/ West split at least put a team from each side of the state in the finals.

I can tell you from what I've seen in the past, they will do it again and if you can read. You will see the RPI is a two year experiment. After this season they will decide to keep it, tweak it or leave it alone.

It doesn't even have to be a Dowling/ Valley finals, it could be a Ankeny/ Marshalltown finals to take us back to the East/West split

Which brings up an important topic, would it have been preferable (in the interest of structuring an East/Central final) to have the semifinals of Dowling/Valley & Bett/CRK? After seeing the way the Central teams dominated, of course not. Like it or not, the championship game “should” be between the two best, remaining schools...period. There should not be a structured geographic component to the title game, no participation trophies here.
 
I'm not going to disagree, but I also think that's true of pretty much any state championship game in any sport.

Yes and No.

Yes in the sense that unless people have a dog in the fight they don't cheer, follow, or care about a game involving other teams as much as they did in the past.

No in the sense that there are a still a fair number of people who enthusiastically cheer for whoever is facing Valley or Dowling in a state championship game.
 
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Which brings up an important topic, would it have been preferable (in the interest of structuring an East/Central final) to have the semifinals of Dowling/Valley & Bett/CRK? After seeing the way the Central teams dominated, of course not. Like it or not, the championship game “should” be between the two best, remaining schools...period. There should not be a structured geographic component to the title game, no participation trophies here.
So 14 teams are receiving participation trophies?
 
If they split it up (East/West) in the Semi’s again, it’ll be to pacify the East.

After watching Bettendorf and Kennedy both play I think it’s safe to say that Ankeny, Centennial, SEP, and Waukee all could hang with both of those teams. I won’t say who would win, but, all 4 of those teams could hang with the two best teams out of the East. At least for this year.
 
So 14 teams are receiving participation trophies?
Perhaps you misunderstood, my point is when the semifinal brackets are set they should not be constructed to ensure geographic representation but (1vs4) & (2vs3) seed...just was done this year...regardless of how one may feel about the result (and trust me, it ain’t ending the way I wanted it to)
 
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If they split it up (East/West) in the Semi’s again, it’ll be to pacify the East.

After watching Bettendorf and Kennedy both play I think it’s safe to say that Ankeny, Centennial, SEP, and Waukee all could hang with both of those teams. I won’t say who would win, but, all 4 of those teams could hang with the two best teams out of the East. At least for this year.
What do you think they did back in 1999 was to pacify the West
 
Perhaps you misunderstood, my point is when the semifinal brackets are set they should not be constructed to ensure geographic representation but (1vs4) & (2vs3) seed...just was done this year...regardless of how one may feel about the result (and trust me, it ain’t ending the way I wanted it to)
I understand but 1vs4 and 2vs3 type was done last year it was just the #1 & #2 seed lost before the Semis
 
If they split it up (East/West) in the Semi’s again, it’ll be to pacify the East.

After watching Bettendorf and Kennedy both play I think it’s safe to say that Ankeny, Centennial, SEP, and Waukee all could hang with both of those teams. I won’t say who would win, but, all 4 of those teams could hang with the two best teams out of the East. At least for this year.
3-6 Waterloo West almost beat Centennial so I'm not sure if what you are saying is accurate. It's more like CF and Bettendorf could easily play in the West
 
I understand but 1vs4 and 2vs3 type was done last year it was just the #1 & #2 seed lost before the Semis
I looked at last year’s PO brackets and interestingly 1 AC lost to 16 SEP, thus proving the old adage on any given day...but it does appear they seeded all according to the RPI’s as best they could. That said I think this year’s lopsided semifinals were a one off and aren’t necessarily indicative of the future...at least I hope.
 
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3-6 Waterloo West almost beat Centennial so I'm not sure if what you are saying is accurate. It's more like CF and Bettendorf could easily play in the West
Here’s another factor cutting against CF, Bett or any other competitive Eastern team, since there seems to be scant depth in their geographic vicinity, they try and schedule at least one opponent in their 4 non-district games in the Central area (e.g., CF vs Ankeny, CRK vs Valley, Bett vs CF) Bett is really at a disadvantage in that DM is 2 1/2 hrs away , which is why they ought to really explore the interstate opponent options and see about suburban Chicago, almost the same time of travel as DM.
 
I looked at last year’s PO brackets and interestingly 1 AC lost to 16 SEP, thus proving the old adage on any given day...but it does appear they seeded all according to the RPI’s as best they could. That said I think this year’s lopsided semifinals were a one off and aren’t necessarily indicative of the future...at least I hope.
You are correct about last year and the same thing happened this year but only the #2 &#4 seed lost
 
Here’s another factor cutting against CF, Bett or any other competitive Eastern team, since there seems to be scant depth in their geographic vicinity, they try and schedule at least one opponent in their 4 non-district games in the Central area (e.g., CF vs Ankeny, CRK vs Valley, Bett vs CF) Bett is really at a disadvantage in that DM is 2 1/2 hrs away , which is why they ought to really explore the interstate opponent options and see about suburban Chicago, almost the same time of travel as DM.
Bettendorf did play Valley a few years back, I looked at Dowling and they Scheduled CR Xavier a few years back.

However they didn't schedule any teams other than what is on their side of the state.
 
Bettendorf did play Valley a few years back, I looked at Dowling and they Scheduled CR Xavier a few years back.

However they didn't schedule any teams other than what is on their side of the state.
I looked last night and maybe what some of the top teams on the Eastern side of the state is missing, is they need to get the lower tier teams to increase their team depth. Maybe if that happens they can play more competitive games, be better than what they are now and give the Western Side of the State a game
 
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3-6 Waterloo West almost beat Centennial so I'm not sure if what you are saying is accurate. It's more like CF and Bettendorf could easily play in the West


Here is what you may not know about that game...Centennial was down their college-bound left tackle, their #1 running back, their #1 defensive end. They moved the starting tight end to play the interior line. There was a lot of shuffling that took place. As you probably know, Centennial runs a 2 and sometimes 3 RB offense. With Gates down for the 2nd week in a row, they slid the #2 back to the #1 RB for the 2nd week in a row, and then Centennial shuffled in a bunch of guys that don't normally carry the ball. I'll give West a lot of credit, they played a good game. However, Centennial was trying to survive and get healthy prior to district play.
On that note, I was talking to our coach the other day; he stated how hard it was to get teams around the state to play games against many of the Des Moines Schools. CF is one of the few who is willing to take a game, as well as offer up freshman and sophomore games. Obviously, no one wants to travel 2-3 hours to play a game, so clearly that is a factor in getting non-district games scheduled as well.
 
Here is what you may not know about that game...Centennial was down their college-bound left tackle, their #1 running back, their #1 defensive end. They moved the starting tight end to play the interior line. There was a lot of shuffling that took place. As you probably know, Centennial runs a 2 and sometimes 3 RB offense. With Gates down for the 2nd week in a row, they slid the #2 back to the #1 RB for the 2nd week in a row, and then Centennial shuffled in a bunch of guys that don't normally carry the ball. I'll give West a lot of credit, they played a good game. However, Centennial was trying to survive and get healthy prior to district play.
On that note, I was talking to our coach the other day; he stated how hard it was to get teams around the state to play games against many of the Des Moines Schools. CF is one of the few who is willing to take a game, as well as offer up freshman and sophomore games. Obviously, no one wants to travel 2-3 hours to play a game, so clearly that is a factor in getting non-district games scheduled as well.
Here is what you may not know about the game.... West High had to replace their entire backfield and fill holes on the offensive line. They went through the same thing Centennial was going through and every team in the state
 
Here is what you may not know about that game...Centennial was down their college-bound left tackle, their #1 running back, their #1 defensive end. They moved the starting tight end to play the interior line. There was a lot of shuffling that took place. As you probably know, Centennial runs a 2 and sometimes 3 RB offense. With Gates down for the 2nd week in a row, they slid the #2 back to the #1 RB for the 2nd week in a row, and then Centennial shuffled in a bunch of guys that don't normally carry the ball. I'll give West a lot of credit, they played a good game. However, Centennial was trying to survive and get healthy prior to district play.
On that note, I was talking to our coach the other day; he stated how hard it was to get teams around the state to play games against many of the Des Moines Schools. CF is one of the few who is willing to take a game, as well as offer up freshman and sophomore games. Obviously, no one wants to travel 2-3 hours to play a game, so clearly that is a factor in getting non-district games scheduled as well.
That maybe ending for CF and well, if you can't let your sophs play, then CF wont schedule you
 
Here is what you may not know about the game.... West High had to replace their entire backfield and fill holes on the offensive line. They went through the same thing Centennial was going through and every team in the state

Have you seen Ankeny Centennial play this year? If not, I would advise not basing their talent/skill level off of a game where they hampered with a plague of injuries. Yes, every team goes through injuries, but, I've seen on this site time and time again that people can't evaluate injuries individually and the severity an injury has to a specific team. Centennial has wins this year over Urbandale (Playoff team) by 20, Ankeny (Playoff team), SEP (Playoff team), and I will leave FD out (they were a playoff team but they were far from a quality opponent). Centennial played 4 quality opponents in the regular season (SEP, Ankeny, Urbandale, and Dowling) and went 3-1. That's solid.

I also don't believe you can use a score as an indicator as to how this team would fair vs another, that's why I comment that a specific team could contend, I honestly don't know who would win, but after watching teams play, I can tell if the game would be competitive. I mean if you want to go down the transitive property....we can...but it isn't an indicator of what's real.

After WATCHING Bettendorf, Kennedy, SEP, Waukee, Ankeny, and Centennial I can tell you that all 4 of the western teams listed above could CONTEND with Bettendorf and Kennedy. I DO NOT KNOW WHO WOULD WIN, but, after WATCHING them play, I would believe that the games would be competitive.
 
Have you seen Ankeny Centennial play this year? If not, I would advise not basing their talent/skill level off of a game where they hampered with a plague of injuries. Yes, every team goes through injuries, but, I've seen on this site time and time again that people can't evaluate injuries individually and the severity an injury has to a specific team. Centennial has wins this year over Urbandale (Playoff team) by 20, Ankeny (Playoff team), SEP (Playoff team), and I will leave FD out (they were a playoff team but they were far from a quality opponent). Centennial played 4 quality opponents in the regular season (SEP, Ankeny, Urbandale, and Dowling) and went 3-1. That's solid.

I also don't believe you can use a score as an indicator as to how this team would fair vs another, that's why I comment that a specific team could contend, I honestly don't know who would win, but after watching teams play, I can tell if the game would be competitive. I mean if you want to go down the transitive property....we can...but it isn't an indicator of what's real.

After WATCHING Bettendorf, Kennedy, SEP, Waukee, Ankeny, and Centennial I can tell you that all 4 of the western teams listed above could CONTEND with Bettendorf and Kennedy. I DO NOT KNOW WHO WOULD WIN, but, after WATCHING them play, I would believe that the games would be competitive.
You seem able to judge teams without seeing them play and yes I was at the game
 
Have you seen Ankeny Centennial play this year? If not, I would advise not basing their talent/skill level off of a game where they hampered with a plague of injuries. Yes, every team goes through injuries, but, I've seen on this site time and time again that people can't evaluate injuries individually and the severity an injury has to a specific team. Centennial has wins this year over Urbandale (Playoff team) by 20, Ankeny (Playoff team), SEP (Playoff team), and I will leave FD out (they were a playoff team but they were far from a quality opponent). Centennial played 4 quality opponents in the regular season (SEP, Ankeny, Urbandale, and Dowling) and went 3-1. That's solid.

I also don't believe you can use a score as an indicator as to how this team would fair vs another, that's why I comment that a specific team could contend, I honestly don't know who would win, but after watching teams play, I can tell if the game would be competitive. I mean if you want to go down the transitive property....we can...but it isn't an indicator of what's real.

After WATCHING Bettendorf, Kennedy, SEP, Waukee, Ankeny, and Centennial I can tell you that all 4 of the western teams listed above could CONTEND with Bettendorf and Kennedy. I DO NOT KNOW WHO WOULD WIN, but, after WATCHING them play, I would believe that the games would be competitive.
Maybe when Centennial quits getting beat by #16 seed last year and a #13 seed this year. I might think they are up there with some of the other elite teams
 
Why don't you ever mention Cedar Falls in this mix of Eastern, teams are you a believer that they have a crap program and don't belong to be mentioned in the same breath.

We're you at the Ankeny/CF game. I seen CF up 21-7 until they lost there starting defensive tackle. Then they gave up a td before half on a breakdown on defense.

Then I watched a starting offensive tackle go down and Ankeny tied it 21-21. Then I watched the fullback and running go out and Ankeny went up 27-21.

CF then marched down the field and scored 28-27 win. I never once said all these injuries was an excuse to almost getting beat by Ankeny. But Just think of what the score would have been if I used your logic

So if West would have beaten Centennial, Centennial was going against a very young team. CF was going against a very veteran team. Cael Loecher and two offensive lineman were the only returning starters.

Who did Centennial lose to in the playoffs, oh my it was Urbandale. Was there a reason why Centennial lost to Urbandale 29-28?
 
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Reasoned-on the one hand, Dowling, being a private school, can draw students from all over the metro, but with open enrollment policies at public schools, students sometimes CHOOSE to transfer to public schools as well, for either academics, other reasons, and yes, sometimes sports (see Valley and Roosevelt basketball programs the past few years). Do you want to ban private schools? The parents sending their kids to these schools still pay local property taxes that go to the local school district, but they decide to invest their own money in a private education (although, not to start a debate, but perhaps churches/religious institutions in particular should not be tax exempt as they are? I don't know the answer to that question).

I think if you look at the data, you would find the vast majority of football players for Dowling in particular come from the K-8 parochial schools in the metro area, and a sizable minority decide to come to Dowling from public middle schools all over the metro, either freshmen year or later, for various reasons or their parents were planning on the switch once their kids reached high school because they couldn't afford K-8 parochial but then want their kids at Dowling.

Truly, most of the students at Dowling (and Xavier and many other parochial schools around the state) aren't actively recruited by coaches, their parents just have a higher SES and were planning on sending their kids there, which is also why parents CHOOSE to and have the ability to choose high SES districts to live in Ankeny Centennial/Waukee/Johnston districts, which tend to have money to invest in sports programs, but also their teachers, extracurriculars, facilities, and this also correlates with having strong communities. Also, realize public schools districts aren't really fair (although I believe the state of Iowa guarantees a minimum of funding if the local properties tax revenues are too low), because houses and neighborhoods tend to get built by developers and neighbors and homes/communities tend to be similar in SES. Look at the various mini mansions (and actual mansions) in WDM, Waukee, Johnston, Ankeny, Bettendorf, Iowa City-because many of the households have high incomes, they own more expensive property, and therefore the schools get more money AND this is also compounded by parents with more disposable income to invest in their children's athletic development or to donate even more money and energy to school programs! So if anything, you should be raging about the vast inequalities between DMPS and rural/poor school districts that don't have the same funding/are plagued by poverty, lack of community investment, and lack of opportunities as the kids at Dowling but also Waukee, WDM, Ankeny, Cedar Falls, Bettendorf, IC West, etc. These inequalities reflect wider population/demographic trends in society, as seen through Robert Putnam's work (Bowling Alone and his more recent " Our Kids", which denotes the widening wealth gap in the USA with a handful of thriving upper middle class communities that are separated from the have nots). Taken altogether, all those schools blow DMPS schools out of the water, despite DM East and DM Lincoln being in the top 5 largest high schools in the state by population depending on the year. Do you think the people in Cedar Falls/Bettendorf are really the serfs if we are looking at the broader picture?

But going back to your main argument about Williams, when it comes to Dowling, there are a few things at work as I see it: 1) Students like Williams are attracted to the school for its football prowess but perhaps others reasons as well, just as some parents pick their homes because of the school district (for example, my friend who chose parochial schools and then Dowling because he was bullied at public schools), and remember, although an overused phrase, lets remember 'it is a free country': does Gavin Williams somehow owe his athletic prowess to the Southeast Polk school district? He can do what we wants, just as we allow our kids to go to whatever college they want to/get accepted into, work where they want, and when we as adults we consider and take better job offers that are good for our families and ourselves (often in new locations), we move-so maybe chill out a bit and realize he is a young kid and he had an opportunity and took it. Maybe he owes something to his community, but to what extent? Maybe he didn't go to Dowling for religion, but more students (and parents) than you realize send their kids their because it is private and they can afford it-although there is a minority of super Catholic families at Dowling, many are nominal Catholics or Christians (like the rest of America, and there are plenty of increasingly secular families) that don't really go to church and aren't that interested in religion, or only vaguely. As a graduate of Dowling, my parents saw it more as a private school (and investment in my future) with a religion class, as studies show that one of the most important decision our parents can make for their children are their sociocultural surroundings, and in particular, who will be our friends/peers as our peers habits will influence us and our futures, see literally any book on social psychology, emotional contagion, etc. ((seriously, I often think of where I would be if I was sent to the local public school which was not well funded and had fights and gangs-many of my friends who went to the k-8 parochial school and then to the local public schools that had lower SES, on average, tended to not go to nor graduate from university, whereas the one's that went to the high SES public schools often went to university)).

2) On the other hand, although Dowling doesn't actively recruit to my knowledge, it is clever/smart in many ways: it has a very strong youth football program for kids from ages 6 up, as well as their basketball youth program (used to be called M.A.C. in my day, or Maroon Athletic Club), and they make relationships with families from all over the metro and create summer teams/AAU teams at a young age so even if parents didn't think about parochial schools, they start to think about it more and some switch their kids into the parochial schools. So one could argue that this is a subtle form of recruiting, as they harness the relationship at a young age, and yes, sometimes these students then might get a scholarship because of low SES when they go to Dowling as many who get scholarships for low SES but don't play sports (or, I hope its still not a practice, but they would sometimes have these students work after school to pay off some of their tuition), and then they have to keep their grades up or they lose the scholarship (I remember friends, mostly non-athletes on scholarship because they had a low SES, getting yelled at to keep their grades up). However, again, the VAST majority of players come from parochial k-8 schools and were planning on Dowling all along (if you are Catholic, the diocese covers 30-40 percent of the tuition costs for you as an incentive to go there, depending on the year/coffers). Other students chose to go to Dowling as a high school for other reasons, such as more personal attention, academic reputation (there has been quite an influx of wealth throughout the metro, and sometimes these parents just want a private school). As many have said, it is more about SES-the parents that were already going to send their kids to Dowling have a generally higher SES, and therefore can pay for the tuition at k-8 schools and Dowling, and therefore are also more likely to invest in their sports program and the development of their children's abilities, whether it be through AAU, Summer camps, special trainers, etc. Again, THIS is the same as many strong public schools and I'd like to point out how many suburban schools in the metro have really close football games with Dowling, and in nearly every sport, many are on par-Dowling hasn't won a basketball championship since like the 70s (at least for boys).

Remember, Catholic schools (depending on the state and federal policies), get little to no government funding, so although the parents have SES, the school itself often doesn't have anything near the resources of a typical public school (and the teachers are paid less). So, when discussing resources in particular, Ankeny, Waukee, Johnston, Cedar Falls, Bettendorf, Iowa City and other wealthy districts actually have MUCH more money (from property taxes) to support programs and can pay their coaches more (in general), so although you have a point with Valley's very slight advantage in population pool in particular, which I will not disagree with, there is no reason that Waukee, Johnston, and Ankeny can't be on par with Dowling or Valley, especially as they grow, and again, there is open enrollment. I imagine if Waukee starts dominating in football or some other sport (again, see how some students have moved from public to public for basketball in the metro), kids would transfer there or parents would choose to move to the district, but as I have mentioned earlier, once they split up and have more than one high school, that splits up the talent.

Overall, if students/families want to choose a private school for any reason and it will be good for their futures, whether it be sports, academics, extracurriculars, whatever-who are we to stop that personal decision? Who are we to stop the open enrollment policies of the public schools? Perhaps being private gives Dowling an advantage, but it already has a huge advantage just like all the other high SES school districts especially comparing to the poverty stricken districts and communities not just in 4a, but in rural communities as well, so we must look at the larger picture.

This makes me think that perhaps it is the tradition of Dowling football, the coaching (I think this is at least a partial factor), and the very strong community (despite being non-religious myself, religion can be a powerful way for groups to cooperate efficiently, or as some psychologists and anthropologists argue, biological and cultural evolution work at the same time and perhaps religion is an adaptation to get groups to cooperate and cohere, but who knows?) that increases Dowling's already high SES advantage (which they share with Waukee/CF/Bettendorf) and gives them a slight edge, but who knows? Wouldn't one argue that Cedar Falls and Iowa City have an advantage being exposed to and integrated with the resources, coaching, etc. of Division 1 football programs? I imagine that might be a factor but I don't see many talking about it.

Anyways, sorry for the long rant, but I think it is inappropriate to go after a high school kid and his personal decision on which school to attend, and although you have a point to an extent, there are a lot of factors (mentioned above) that I think would have helped you come to a more " reasoned" analysis. Perhaps the best way forward, as many have said, is a 5a program and also a rethinking of how we design cities and communities as well as funding for schools.

You're killing me Smalls, with this long post. Jeesh.
 
There seems to be a huge dichotomy with this discussion.

1). I have seen Bettendorf and Kennedy play from the East, this year. I have not seen CF play this year. I would agree that CF is a very solid team and would also contend in the West if we are basing this on historical standards.

2). If the injuries you speak of for CF did happen against Ankeny, then yes, CF was very hampered by injuries. It's not hard for me to say that, why is it hard for you say that if Murray was 100% last year against CF then the outcome might have been different? Seems like you argue out of both sides of your mouth.

3). I have no slight intentionally against CF. When speaking of Bettendorf and Kennedy, I was only using them because they were the final two Eastern teams this year. It seems that you have a weird emotional attachment to CF and when discussing teams you automatically jump to their defense if you believe anyone is downing them. Again, for the record, I could care less about CF. I neither like them or dislike them. I only analyze what I see on the field. I would suggest you do the same when comparing teams and commenting on games.
 
Franky,
I was simply pointing out my observations of being there that night...my son plays for Centennial, so I go to the games. I made the assumption that you go to CF games based on your posts, but perhaps I was wrong. I never once said anything bad about CF. You said you were at the Centennial/West game, while also saying you were at the CF/Ankeny game. Those games were played the same night. Maybe you were watching one of the games on YouTube?

And yes, Centennial lost to Urbandale in the playoffs. They lost because Urbandale played better. Like all the other teams to lose in the playoffs, the loss was hard. The boys worked hard, just like Urbandale, and in the end, Urbandale won the game.
 
Not to derail but...IMHO there were probably 3 or 4 teams (this year) from the East (defined as East of the greater DSM area) which were “upper tier”. As for the Central area (sorry Westside but not sure what’s been going on over there) there were 7 or 8, of which 2 were clearly above all and will meet in the final. Point is, with 16 making the Playoffs it encompasses all these teams and about half a dozen more. Does this make #’s 17 or 23 happy? Probably not, but being continuous clocked in the first round probably wouldn’t either but then again you never know what might happen.
 
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Have you seen Ankeny Centennial play this year? If not, I would advise not basing their talent/skill level off of a game where they hampered with a plague of injuries. Yes, every team goes through injuries, but, I've seen on this site time and time again that people can't evaluate injuries individually and the severity an injury has to a specific team. Centennial has wins this year over Urbandale (Playoff team) by 20, Ankeny (Playoff team), SEP (Playoff team), and I will leave FD out (they were a playoff team but they were far from a quality opponent). Centennial played 4 quality opponents in the regular season (SEP, Ankeny, Urbandale, and Dowling) and went 3-1. That's solid.

I also don't believe you can use a score as an indicator as to how this team would fair vs another, that's why I comment that a specific team could contend, I honestly don't know who would win, but after watching teams play, I can tell if the game would be competitive. I mean if you want to go down the transitive property....we can...but it isn't an indicator of what's real.

After WATCHING Bettendorf, Kennedy, SEP, Waukee, Ankeny, and Centennial I can tell you that all 4 of the western teams listed above could CONTEND with Bettendorf and Kennedy. I DO NOT KNOW WHO WOULD WIN, but, after WATCHING them play, I would believe that the games would be competitive.

Absolutely. The teams you listed, I'm sure they're about the same level. Except I'd add Cedar Falls and drop Centennial from that group. You can't get bounced in a first round home game two years in a row and put yourself in that group. I'd put Valley on a level in between that group and Dowling. I know Valley won earlier but Dowling is a different beast altogether. Good news the whole east west thing is done. Dowling vs everyone else. And it's not close. The other Central teams can't hang on that coat tail.
 
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Absolutely. The teams you listed, I'm sure they're about the same level. Except I'd add Cedar Falls and drop Centennial from that group. You can't get bounced in a first round home game two years in a row and put yourself in that group. I'd put Valley on a level in between that group and Dowling. I know Valley won earlier but Dowling is a different beast altogether. Good news the whole east west thing is done. Dowling vs everyone else. And it's not close. The other Central teams can't hang that coat tail.

Ride that coat tail? That's a weird concept. Dowling has definitely dominated over the past 20 years...but other schools from the West have held their own.....about as good as anyone from the East has.

Since 2000, 3 schools from the East have won a title (Bettendorf 2x, Xavier, and City High) and 3 from the West have won a title (Dowling 9x, Valley 5x, and Ankeny) and chalk another one up to Valley or Dowling this year as well.
 
Ride that coat tail? That's a weird concept. Dowling has definitely dominated over the past 20 years...but other schools from the West have held their own.....about as good as anyone from the East has.

Since 2000, 3 schools from the East have won a title (Bettendorf 2x, Xavier, and City High) and 3 from the West have won a title (Dowling 9x, Valley 5x, and Ankeny) and chalk another one up to Valley or Dowling this year as well.

What's your question?
 
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There seems to be a huge dichotomy with this discussion.

1). I have seen Bettendorf and Kennedy play from the East, this year. I have not seen CF play this year. I would agree that CF is a very solid team and would also contend in the West if we are basing this on historical standards.

2). If the injuries you speak of for CF did happen against Ankeny, then yes, CF was very hampered by injuries. It's not hard for me to say that, why is it hard for you say that if Murray was 100% last year against CF then the outcome might have been different? Seems like you argue out of both sides of your mouth.

3). I have no slight intentionally against CF. When speaking of Bettendorf and Kennedy, I was only using them because they were the final two Eastern teams this year. It seems that you have a weird emotional attachment to CF and when discussing teams you automatically jump to their defense if you believe anyone is downing them. Again, for the record, I could care less about CF. I neither like them or dislike them. I only analyze what I see on the field. I would suggest you do the same when comparing teams and commenting on games.
When you can comprehend that injuries are part of the game than we can really talk. Go back and defend Dowling, who won a title game by less than a score. I'm not crying about it Dowling won. You can live your life assuming all you want, I on the other hand learned years ago not to assume anything.

You brought up Centennial beat Urbandale by 20pts. Not me I'm asking you directly how did Urbandale beat Centennial in the playoffs? You seem to use injuries as mirror instead of giving the other team credit.

Do tell me how did Centennial be lose to the 13 seeded team this year?
 
Franky,
I was simply pointing out my observations of being there that night...my son plays for Centennial, so I go to the games. I made the assumption that you go to CF games based on your posts, but perhaps I was wrong. I never once said anything bad about CF. You said you were at the Centennial/West game, while also saying you were at the CF/Ankeny game. Those games were played the same night. Maybe you were watching one of the games on YouTube?

And yes, Centennial lost to Urbandale in the playoffs. They lost because Urbandale played better. Like all the other teams to lose in the playoffs, the loss was hard. The boys worked hard, just like Urbandale, and in the end, Urbandale won the game.
You didn't say anything that offended me, you explained they run a complex offense and I agree. It's a timing offense and depends on everybody doing their job.

You are explained when several pieces are things just don't work right.

Any of the questions you see directed at Centennial is directed at Gator Bait, he send to make excuses got the Centennial / West game and you admit that maybe West Waterloo had some talent that night
 
You didn't say anything that offended me, you explained they run a complex offense and I agree. It's a timing offense and depends on everybody doing their job.

You are explained when several pieces are things just don't work right.

Any of the questions you see directed at Centennial is directed at Gator Bait, he send to make excuses got the Centennial / West game and you admit that maybe West Waterloo had some talent that night
My mistake ad I watched CF/Ankeny several times on CFU Channel can 15. Was in Ankeny to watch a relative play game for Centennial
 
When you can comprehend that injuries are part of the game than we can really talk. Go back and defend Dowling, who won a title game by less than a score. I'm not crying about it Dowling won. You can live your life assuming all you want, I on the other hand learned years ago not to assume anything.

You brought up Centennial beat Urbandale by 20pts. Not me I'm asking you directly how did Urbandale beat Centennial in the playoffs? You seem to use injuries as mirror instead of giving the other team credit.

Do tell me how did Centennial be lose to the 13 seeded team this year?

Urbandale has talent on that team, a LB with an Iowa offer, probably the fastest kid in the state at RB, and a QB that will be a D1 pitcher, more D1 athletes than most of the other 4A teams
 
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