All classes have issues and complaints. What is a reasonable solution here? Use BCMoore's rankings? Assign a panel of people who know their stuff? Others?
What is a solution to the state pairing problems?
- Thread starter LukeFeddersen
- Start date
Ok, I will bite on this one. I like the way 4A blocks the teams into sub-states and not districts, so I wondered what 3A would look like doing the same (I only did NW Iowa). So with that said, this is what I came up with.
#1 - Le Mars vs. #16 - Storm Lake
#8 - Atlantic vs. #9 - Harlan
#4 - Denison Schleswig vs. #12 - Spencer
#5 - MOC-FV vs. #11 - Glenwood
#3 - Spirit Lake vs. #14 - Greene County
#6 - Carroll vs. #13 - Bishop Heelan
#2 - Algona vs. # - #15 - Adel, ADM
#7 - Sergeant Bluff vs. #10 - Creston
To explain this a little bit, I used BCMoore and found the total # points and loses for each team (games 5-15), Carroll and Sergeant Bluff tied with 26 points and 3 loses and since they didn't play head to head, it then goes by alphabetical order this year. If they did it this way you could take the top 2 teams to Des Moines, or I've also heard that the state is thinking about only having 4 teams going to Des Moines in the future so you could play it out and only take 1 team. I thought that these matchups would be very interesting, and I think that it allows a sub-state such as this one with so many quality teams a better shot to advance instead of having 2-3 top 10 teams in the same district.
#1 - Le Mars vs. #16 - Storm Lake
#8 - Atlantic vs. #9 - Harlan
#4 - Denison Schleswig vs. #12 - Spencer
#5 - MOC-FV vs. #11 - Glenwood
#3 - Spirit Lake vs. #14 - Greene County
#6 - Carroll vs. #13 - Bishop Heelan
#2 - Algona vs. # - #15 - Adel, ADM
#7 - Sergeant Bluff vs. #10 - Creston
To explain this a little bit, I used BCMoore and found the total # points and loses for each team (games 5-15), Carroll and Sergeant Bluff tied with 26 points and 3 loses and since they didn't play head to head, it then goes by alphabetical order this year. If they did it this way you could take the top 2 teams to Des Moines, or I've also heard that the state is thinking about only having 4 teams going to Des Moines in the future so you could play it out and only take 1 team. I thought that these matchups would be very interesting, and I think that it allows a sub-state such as this one with so many quality teams a better shot to advance instead of having 2-3 top 10 teams in the same district.
Simply reseed after districts. May be a little more travel involved, but at least then you get some of your weaker links out of there before Des Moines. It won't solve the problem as a whole, but it will alleviate some of it. I know there are still some whiners about Central Lyon and Boyden Hull being in the same district but oh well. Don't see how you can avoid that one. Simply putting them in two different districts because they are both good would be making an exception. They aren't the only ones that have the conundrum.
As someone who is more familiar with the Illinois structure, I honestly don't see a problem. You will always have some heavyweights have to play each other before the state tournament. It stinks for the teams involved, but it's sort of the nature of the beast. To be the best, you have to beat the best anyway, so I don't get too caught up in if these teams have to play before the actual state tournament or not.
This exactly. If you think your team is state title worthy then they should just win it. Problem I see is the expectation of regular people that their team SHOULD be in Des Moines. They crown them before they even play the games. No wonder kids have inflated egos.
Why should geography decide who plays in a state tournament? I understand legistics and i am not saying seed 1 - whatever it is per class, but why geography? Why does the NW corner of the state or anyone west of I-35 need to be at state?
Bravo Wolverine , you absolutely nailed it. It will all pan out in the end of day. Those early heavyweight matchups are the best preparation for the final run during tournament time. There is another path to a state title and Danville was a perfect example back in the late 1990's and early 2000's. They were in a conference with a lot of elite 1A heavyweights(similar to the Siouxland)....Marquette, Notre Dame, Aquinas......so Danville made the decision to voluntarily move up to 2A....made it to state.... beat super power Western Christian, Cascade and Adam Viet and company at AGWSR then a repeat the following year.
Its like that everywhere. And LyonCounty why do you think Northwest IA is the epicenter of basketball? Yes there is good small school ball in Northwest IA. It isn't all that great in the grand scheme of things. People need to get off of their pedestals.
I know there was some discussion about the state going to only 4 schools in each class who will reach Des Moines - has that thought been shelved? In my opinion, I think that would solve a lot of the post season problems. The two substate tourney champs in the East and the two substate tourney champs from the West in each class meet in Des Moines.
(I do realize the best teams might not always reach state then if the best 3 teams are from the same side of the state). If only 2 teams from each side of the state make Des Moines, it won't really matter who is in your pod because you would have to face them sooner or later.
I don't like how there is no strength of schedule factor in the current substate team placement system or for games 5-15 seeding. In 4A, the number 2 seed in substate 5 has a 7-13 record. The number 1 seed has a SOS ranked 41 of 48? Are you telling me someone from the IAHSAA couldn't see that? Also, substate 4, the number 1 seed will go into the tourney losers of 6 of 7 games - but because they had the 'right' games on their schedule for 5-15 that they earned the 1 seed?
I know the Wahlert, Assumption, Xavier and Heelan fans may disagree, but if you play in the 3A tourney at year end, 60%-70% of your games during the year should be against 3A teams. It is too much of an advantage every year playing a 4A schedule and then dropping down in class for the tourney.
(I do realize the best teams might not always reach state then if the best 3 teams are from the same side of the state). If only 2 teams from each side of the state make Des Moines, it won't really matter who is in your pod because you would have to face them sooner or later.
I don't like how there is no strength of schedule factor in the current substate team placement system or for games 5-15 seeding. In 4A, the number 2 seed in substate 5 has a 7-13 record. The number 1 seed has a SOS ranked 41 of 48? Are you telling me someone from the IAHSAA couldn't see that? Also, substate 4, the number 1 seed will go into the tourney losers of 6 of 7 games - but because they had the 'right' games on their schedule for 5-15 that they earned the 1 seed?
I know the Wahlert, Assumption, Xavier and Heelan fans may disagree, but if you play in the 3A tourney at year end, 60%-70% of your games during the year should be against 3A teams. It is too much of an advantage every year playing a 4A schedule and then dropping down in class for the tourney.
Show me where i said anything of the sort? i just asked a simple question. I made no reference to NWIA being great. You assumed it based on my "name". I just asked a simple question. Why should geography determine who gets to the state tournament? Instead of telling me to get off my pedestal, answer the question.
Go look at 5A for girls basketball. they split up DesMoines area schools. Waukee has SC schools and Marshalltown, Dowling goes to Council Bluffs, West DM plays the Waterloo schools, SE Polk plays Cedar Rapids Schools, IA city West and IA City High are split into different regions
My personal opinion on the subject is that i really like what the girls union is doing. they are trying to split the best teams and give them a chance to have the best 8 teams at state. We all love upsets and they happen, so nobody is guaranteed to make the state tourney. Personally, i enjoyed the girls state champ between Unity and MOC. it didnt bother me in the least they were in the same town
Go look at 5A for girls basketball. they split up DesMoines area schools. Waukee has SC schools and Marshalltown, Dowling goes to Council Bluffs, West DM plays the Waterloo schools, SE Polk plays Cedar Rapids Schools, IA city West and IA City High are split into different regions
My personal opinion on the subject is that i really like what the girls union is doing. they are trying to split the best teams and give them a chance to have the best 8 teams at state. We all love upsets and they happen, so nobody is guaranteed to make the state tourney. Personally, i enjoyed the girls state champ between Unity and MOC. it didnt bother me in the least they were in the same town
People will bitch and moan regardless.
No need to change the system. The top team will always still win the state tournament.
No need to change the system. The top team will always still win the state tournament.
I only want to respond to your second paragraph. In this current technological day and age. why seed on games 5-15. Cant they write a computer program that will seed on the entire season? X amount of points for a win, adjust that based on the class they are in. If you beat a school a class higher than you the X is larger. Also, give bonus points for each opponents wins. So if i beat team A i get X amount of points and then get a much smaller X amount of points for each of their wins. So beating a school that is 19-3 rewards me more than beating a school that is 0-22.
The IGHSAU does it right IMO. Not really much else to say about it. Last year they had two teams playing for the state title that most people could play as a long par 5 between the two schools.
Combine the associations, IAHSAA's tech staff can stay as I think their site is better. IGHSAU post-season panel can stay as they clearly have a better feel for how to properly organize the postseason.
Combine the associations, IAHSAA's tech staff can stay as I think their site is better. IGHSAU post-season panel can stay as they clearly have a better feel for how to properly organize the postseason.
Some teams play 1-2 OOC games per year. When your opponents all play each other and nobody else then it doesn't help compare teams between conferences. In your system beating 1A Orient-Macksburg (7-13) in the Bluegrass is the same as beating St. Albert (7-14) in the Hawkeye 10. Pretty soon you're going to suggest adjusting the opponents scores too (starting to sound a lot like BCMoore), but again computer programs are very limited when dealing with small sample sizes.
Currently there are 7 teams with 0-1 losses in 1A.
Then throw in Boyden-Hull, Central Lyon, South O'Brien, West Hancock, Earlham, Meskwaki, Gehlen, Janesville, Montezuma, Ankeny Christian, West Central, and others at 2-3 losses. Everybody is going to play somebody good.
I guess I didn't realize there was a state pairing problem. Simply, there are just too many teams covering too vast an area to ever get a perfect system. No matter what you do I can guarantee there will always be issues and complaints. There will always be really good teams having to play each other to get to state. There will always be teams sitting at home who may have been able to beat someone else who got there. It is just the nature of the beast. If you want to get to state you have to win and if you can't do that you don't deserve to be there. Same thing is true for district pairings, if you don't want to have a tough opening round match you need to win more games. Teams control their own destiny in any of this. If you truly are one of the best teams prove it on the court, simple as that.
I think because teams pretty much just play their geographical neighbors it is incredibly difficult to know for sure who the best teams really are. I can think of multiple years when 5 or 6 loss teams from Northwest Iowa go down to state and beat teams with 1 or even 0 losses from other parts of the state. I can also think of years when just the opposite has happened. Because most teams are so geographically limited in who they play during the season we usually just don't know how good a certain part of the state is till the tournament. We can often guess but are just as often proved wrong. Even BCMoore's ranking, as accurate as they often are, are not perfect in that regard. That is why I like the current system. It lets us see who the best team from each part of the state is and how the different areas match up. Outside of teams doing some serious traveling during the season to play all over the state I can't think of a better way to do it.
I think because teams pretty much just play their geographical neighbors it is incredibly difficult to know for sure who the best teams really are. I can think of multiple years when 5 or 6 loss teams from Northwest Iowa go down to state and beat teams with 1 or even 0 losses from other parts of the state. I can also think of years when just the opposite has happened. Because most teams are so geographically limited in who they play during the season we usually just don't know how good a certain part of the state is till the tournament. We can often guess but are just as often proved wrong. Even BCMoore's ranking, as accurate as they often are, are not perfect in that regard. That is why I like the current system. It lets us see who the best team from each part of the state is and how the different areas match up. Outside of teams doing some serious traveling during the season to play all over the state I can't think of a better way to do it.
Agree.
Geography is still a factor, but they put real thought into splitting the top teams into different substate regions.
Result is hopefully fewer round 1 blowouts, and fewer top teams never making it to the Well in the first place.
Boy's Union is flat-out lazy.
Unless they are wrong on their prediction of who the best team is, or if there is an upset the next best team isn't as good because they tried to make it an easy path for the 1/2 seed. Look at 2013 1A girls. Upset occurred, the team that won the substate upset lost first round at state 75-28. Just an example of that system not working either.
The fact that you want the state to choose which 8 teams are the best is an awful, awful, thing to me. This is the exact same organization that everyone complains about from scheduling too many football games in too short of a span, to letting too many teams in the playoffs, to now not getting "the right" teams to the Well, and you want to give this organization the power to schedule the post-season in a BIASED manner? That's crazy and yes, it is biased because it is who they think the best teams are and you can't know that before the games are played. Perhaps I am old-fashioned.
What I'm asking for is that the teams that had the best regular season be rewarded by having to square off with another top team in an early round. They don't need to have 1-8 perfect, just divided up as much as geography allows.
The seeding gets done using the collective info from BCMoore, Iowa sports writers & coaches. The state only collates & makes a few judgment calls in regards to travel distance.
Upsets are great & will occur regardless of how things are organized, but if I'm going to buy a ticket for a state tourney session that my team isn't playing in , I want to see the best teams square off.
Also, it is easier to split top girls teams up because they have 5 classes. Imagine if the girls class systems was the same as the boys for this year, you would have Unity Christian, Western Christian, and Sioux Center all in the same area. I don't see how all 3 could get split up into different regions. So same problem, one will lose and be left at home even though they are probably better than teams that make it.
Why would anyone within the unions want to combine them? Those that are employees will do everything they can to not make it happen. Iowa I believe is the lone state in the entire country with two unions. The girl's union even promotes it on twitter. With no governing body, I have no clue what would force a change here. They can do whatever they want.
Vanderhoops ...I don't think the purpose of the state tournament is to provide entertainment for you or anyone else who chooses to buy a ticket to go watch high school athletes. It's about the athletes, not the spectators in the stands. The best teams are the best teams on any given night. Your schedule means nothing. Win and you advance. Lose you go home. That's about as fair as you can get.
So you must not believe in seeding of any kind?
Just draw names out of a hat & set up the tourney at random.
Agree that the state tourney is foremost about the teams, but competition is most fair (and enjoyable) when each round becomes increasingly more competitive and the climax is the 2 best teams squaring off in the finals.
Are you saying the boy's union sets it up better than the girl's?
Originally posted by VanderHoops:
So you must not believe in seeding of any kind?
Just draw names out of a hat & set up the tourney at random. (wrestling says hi....)
Agree that the state tourney is foremost about the teams, but competition is most fair (and enjoyable) when each round becomes increasingly more competitive and the climax is the 2 best teams squaring off in the finals. (which always happens in every sport)
Are you saying the boy's union sets it up better than the girl's? (if it means keeping the State tournament from being more full of NW Iowa teams than it already is, then yes...........)
Don't forget not that long ago that the basketball district/substate pairings used to come out BEFORE THE SEASON. Talk about drawing names out of a hat. It was a big deal that they decided to wait and follow what the girls do.
Right here. And also, teams overrate their districts and the area of the state they play in. If you want in the tournament, you have to beat the teams in your area first. Example: Williamsburg vs. Ft. Madison will be a top 5 matchup. I haven't heard either fan base complain that they have to play each other to get to state. But NW Iowa people all think that area of the state is extremely tough. So what happens if the NW Iowa team gets rocked in the state tournament? To me, that would justify the system a bit.
A combination of BC Moore rankings with some thought put into it. You're never going to get the 8 'best' teams to state because geography will always play a role, but at least you could avoid first round matchups of top-15 teams and not have other substate finals where neither team is in the top 20, which happened in Class 2A this year.
Its a small world complex honestly. Just enjoy the kids competing. Adults make too big a deal out of this.
Each association will fight tooth and nail to avoid combining. Unfortunately, the only thing I can see to facilitate a combination would be a scandal of some kind that would get the attention of the media and the legislature.
Having separate associations is a colossal waste of money and very inefficient. Where do people think their funding comes from? For two groups who claim to exist for the best interests of the kids - it is highly hypocritical to continue this costly and self-serving charade.
Isn't a small town who closes up shop, heads to the game, and overinflates egos of teenagers, of whom most won't even play college ball, just as costly and self serving?
Just play a 25 game season and who ever finishes on top of the Bcmoore is state champ!
I think the idea behind the state tournament has become confused over time. Isn't it supposed to be a meeting of the best teams in the state from different regions? How can you simply assume the best team is from one region, even if that region has been historically dominate.
If you used the same theories for college football this year (as proposed by other posters) the college football playoff would have been Alabama, Miss, Miss State, and Auburn.
I think the idea behind the state tournament has become confused over time. Isn't it supposed to be a meeting of the best teams in the state from different regions? How can you simply assume the best team is from one region, even if that region has been historically dominate.
If you used the same theories for college football this year (as proposed by other posters) the college football playoff would have been Alabama, Miss, Miss State, and Auburn.
I love BCMoore rankings, but you can't possibly even add that to the equation. Dubuque Wahlert could lose every single game and they would still be ranked above all of the teams that play 2A teams during conference play.
I cant speak for the rest of you, but i do enjoy these discussions. I think small school NWIA basketball is very good, but not the end all be all. The regular season definitely prepares them for post season, but it is not a given that they will make state or win a state champ. I think BH or CL could win state then again i dont see them being so dominant that it is a given. Neither could make it. I have not seen South Obrien so i wont comment on them. I think the same with Western.
The best post season game i saw last year was the WL vs LeMars Gehlen. It was a truly great high school basketball game. Unfortunately for Gehlen, it was played in LeMars and not Des Moines. After watching the WL games in Des Moines, i truly feel that LG deserved to be there more than the teams WL played in the semis and finals. This is where i struggle with Geography. Did those 2 teams deserve the state tourney more than Gehlen just because they are located in a different part of the state? My personal opinion is no, but other differ and that is great.
Yes, you have to beat the best to be the best. i get it. For most kids the goal of playing in a state tournament is greater and more important than winning a state championship. As a player, it was more disappointing to me the year we got beat in substate vs the times we lost in the semi finals. there is something about playing in the barn/well.
I really like what the girls union is doing in trying to split up the higher rated teams.
The best post season game i saw last year was the WL vs LeMars Gehlen. It was a truly great high school basketball game. Unfortunately for Gehlen, it was played in LeMars and not Des Moines. After watching the WL games in Des Moines, i truly feel that LG deserved to be there more than the teams WL played in the semis and finals. This is where i struggle with Geography. Did those 2 teams deserve the state tourney more than Gehlen just because they are located in a different part of the state? My personal opinion is no, but other differ and that is great.
Yes, you have to beat the best to be the best. i get it. For most kids the goal of playing in a state tournament is greater and more important than winning a state championship. As a player, it was more disappointing to me the year we got beat in substate vs the times we lost in the semi finals. there is something about playing in the barn/well.
I really like what the girls union is doing in trying to split up the higher rated teams.
Those of you attacking the "Northwest Iowa" posters... just because I used the girls title game where the two schools were within ear shot of each other and from Northwest Iowa doesn't mean I think they need to cater to Northwest Iowa. I've been quite vocal in my opposition to the I-29 substate continuing its 20 year streak this year. I do think we frequently have basketball teams that warrant the I-29 substate, but I don't think this is one of those years. I guess in the end, the two teams that play in the state title game in any sport are the two best teams in their class that year. Whether they didn't win a single game during the season and then got hot in the playoffs or were undefeated all year, you have to win the games that count. One could argue that football can be an exception to this rule since the title game is always East vs West.
However, we shouldn't be "ok" with some of the substates that were put together this year. At least you can tell the Girls Union puts some form of thought into their regionals... the boys clearly don't and that's a statewide issue, not just a Northwest Iowa thing.
However, we shouldn't be "ok" with some of the substates that were put together this year. At least you can tell the Girls Union puts some form of thought into their regionals... the boys clearly don't and that's a statewide issue, not just a Northwest Iowa thing.
