When they have been dominate the last 12 years or so down at the state tournament is easy to be confident and have an ego. I just think people in NW IA feel like if they get out of the area and down to Des Moines they feel like they will do very well down at state. Thats why they are arrogant bc they see teams from the Siouxland win games by 20 plus down at the state tourney where as they were playing single digit games against teams in their conference day n and day out.
What is a solution to the state pairing problems?
- Thread starter LukeFeddersen
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> I love BCMoore rankings, but you can't possibly even add that to the equation. Dubuque Wahlert could lose every single game and they would still be ranked above all of the teams that play 2A teams during conference play.
I agree with this sentiment. The computer seems to generally overestimate 2A-3A MAC/MVC teams in the tournament.
I agree with this sentiment. The computer seems to generally overestimate 2A-3A MAC/MVC teams in the tournament.
It is still small-town overconfidence. I get there has been a run of dominance the past 12 years. That like everything else will change with time. Doubt you will hear a peep out of that group when the tides change.
Highest seeds in districts deserve home games for first round.
District finals you can find a neutral site, but it either needs to be within 5 miles of equal distance for both teams or a neutral site that is closer to the higher seed.
Substate needs to be at a neutral site that is fair for both teams.
Personally, Davenport Assumption was completely shafted this post season.
#1 seed playing at Central Dewitt for first round(vs. Maquoketa). Playing at Clinton District Finals(Mt.Vernon or Central Dewitt). Substate game is at US Cellular Center in Cedar Rapids(Favorite is CR Xavier, Solon/Marion/Benton are other teams)...
Essentially, other than Mt. Vernon going to Dewitt and Clinton... Assumption was given the farthest travel for each game and basically playing true road games while the rest of the teams are playing in there own backyard.
I know North Scott has the proper seating to host a District Finals game, but instead they go to Clinton. That makes travel longer for each team in the district. North Scott also has a much nicer floor than Clinton. Clinton has several dead spots on the floor that when the ball bounces it feels hollow underneath, so the ball doesn't bounce as well.
I know Iowa City has the seating to host a Substate game, but instead they go to Cedar Rapids.
Assumption was also given the early game at Dewitt. If you are sending the #1 seed out of town you should at least give them the late game and make the host team play the early game.
District finals you can find a neutral site, but it either needs to be within 5 miles of equal distance for both teams or a neutral site that is closer to the higher seed.
Substate needs to be at a neutral site that is fair for both teams.
Personally, Davenport Assumption was completely shafted this post season.
#1 seed playing at Central Dewitt for first round(vs. Maquoketa). Playing at Clinton District Finals(Mt.Vernon or Central Dewitt). Substate game is at US Cellular Center in Cedar Rapids(Favorite is CR Xavier, Solon/Marion/Benton are other teams)...
Essentially, other than Mt. Vernon going to Dewitt and Clinton... Assumption was given the farthest travel for each game and basically playing true road games while the rest of the teams are playing in there own backyard.
I know North Scott has the proper seating to host a District Finals game, but instead they go to Clinton. That makes travel longer for each team in the district. North Scott also has a much nicer floor than Clinton. Clinton has several dead spots on the floor that when the ball bounces it feels hollow underneath, so the ball doesn't bounce as well.
I know Iowa City has the seating to host a Substate game, but instead they go to Cedar Rapids.
Assumption was also given the early game at Dewitt. If you are sending the #1 seed out of town you should at least give them the late game and make the host team play the early game.
That is somewhat similar to Substate 1 in 4A. Assuming CBAL makes it to the substate final from the topside of the bracket, and either SCN or SCE makes it from the lower side of bracket, they will have to play CBAL in council bluffs at Thomas Jefferson High School to determine who will make it to state. I'm assuming they do this because there isn't a big enough gym between the schools to hold the large crowds, but who knows I guess.
You guys can troll on this thread about Northwest Iowa Basketball all you want, arrogance is a little harsh, we might call it proud of the type of basketball we play. Facts are facts, Northwest Iowa has been the most dominate for the last 15 years, so for those that whine, without looking up the facts, here you go.
Since 2000, there have been 60 state championship games played.
There have been 21 State Champions from Northwest Iowa.
There have been 11 State Runner-Up's from Northwest Iowa.
There have been 3 State Championship games that have had both teams from Northwest Iowa.
So if I do my math right that would mean 53% of the time a team from Northwest Iowa is playing/winning a State Championship.
Definitely not trying to brag it up, just tired of all the haters. We hear it all the time about Private Schools winning all the state championships, if you can't beat them then just whine about how they win all the time, don't work harder just whine.
Someone said that the dominance will come to an end someday and you are right, everything comes and goes, but WE will still be proud of the way we play EVERY sport not just basketball.
So that's my rant on the subject, can't wait to see how it all plays out. Good Luck to all teams!!!
Since 2000, there have been 60 state championship games played.
There have been 21 State Champions from Northwest Iowa.
There have been 11 State Runner-Up's from Northwest Iowa.
There have been 3 State Championship games that have had both teams from Northwest Iowa.
So if I do my math right that would mean 53% of the time a team from Northwest Iowa is playing/winning a State Championship.
Definitely not trying to brag it up, just tired of all the haters. We hear it all the time about Private Schools winning all the state championships, if you can't beat them then just whine about how they win all the time, don't work harder just whine.
Someone said that the dominance will come to an end someday and you are right, everything comes and goes, but WE will still be proud of the way we play EVERY sport not just basketball.
So that's my rant on the subject, can't wait to see how it all plays out. Good Luck to all teams!!!
I'll put this into perspective for everybody.
There are 4 parts to the state. Northwest, Southwest, Northeast, Southeast.
2 teams make it to the championship game.
Using a little bit of math, if the regions were equal, each region would have a 50% chance of making the championship.
Predicted - 50% Actual - 53%
I believe that your math is incorrect. However, I do agree that NW IA schools have played in a higher percentage of state championship games than the other 3 parts of the state in the last 14/15 years. You took the average based on 100%, but you have to take the average based on 200% because in a state title game you either win or lose... I went ahead and broke down the state into 4 quadrants based on Highway 30 and Interstate 35. Of the four quadrants in all 4 classes:
NW IA: 72% of the time there is a team from NW IA in the final.
NE IA: 53% of the time from NE IA.
SW IA: 20% of the time from SW IA.
SE IA: 55% of the time from SE IA.
NW IA: 72% of the time there is a team from NW IA in the final.
NE IA: 53% of the time from NE IA.
SW IA: 20% of the time from SW IA.
SE IA: 55% of the time from SE IA.
Nope Northwest Iowa is the epicenter of basketball. They should move the Basketball Hall of Fame there.
Everything goes in cycles - some cycles are longer than others - but there is no getting around the fact that for the past 12 years, the best basketball in 1A and 2A has been played in the far NW corner of the state, specifically in Sioux County and to a lesser extent Lyon Co. Just a quick check shows:
1A titles since 2003: 2003 (Boyden-Hull), 2006 (George Little Rock), 2009 and 2010 (Rock Valley), 2012 and 2013 (BH), 2014 (West Lyon). That's 7 titles in 12 years and 5 out of last 6 from two counties.
2A titles since 2003: 2003 (Sioux Center), 2005 (Unity Christian), 2007 and 2008 (Western Chr), 2010 (Western), 2013 (Sheldon), 2014 (Western). 7 in 12 years. Note: Sheldon is O'Brien Co. but a good-sized portion of the school district is in Sioux. You can adjust the numbers accordingly if you wish.
These totals do not include a 3A title in 2005 for MOC/FV and 3 other second place finishes during the same time period. That is 14 state titles in 1A and 2A in the past 12 years for those two counties with the rest of the state combined claiming 10.
The dominance by that area could come to a halt starting this season, but until it does, it is understandable that the way the boys assoc splits up teams is more of a topic for the folks up there.
Re-posting the link to the article on the pairing controversy from an earlier thread for those that didn't see it.
Link
1A titles since 2003: 2003 (Boyden-Hull), 2006 (George Little Rock), 2009 and 2010 (Rock Valley), 2012 and 2013 (BH), 2014 (West Lyon). That's 7 titles in 12 years and 5 out of last 6 from two counties.
2A titles since 2003: 2003 (Sioux Center), 2005 (Unity Christian), 2007 and 2008 (Western Chr), 2010 (Western), 2013 (Sheldon), 2014 (Western). 7 in 12 years. Note: Sheldon is O'Brien Co. but a good-sized portion of the school district is in Sioux. You can adjust the numbers accordingly if you wish.
These totals do not include a 3A title in 2005 for MOC/FV and 3 other second place finishes during the same time period. That is 14 state titles in 1A and 2A in the past 12 years for those two counties with the rest of the state combined claiming 10.
The dominance by that area could come to a halt starting this season, but until it does, it is understandable that the way the boys assoc splits up teams is more of a topic for the folks up there.
Re-posting the link to the article on the pairing controversy from an earlier thread for those that didn't see it.
Link
I think we already may be seeing a bit of a dip in 2A. Currently I do not see the depth that Northwest Iowa had during much of the 2000's. That stretch from 2005-2010 in particular had some incredibly good teams fighting to make it to state. Some of the perennial powerhouses are not nearly as strong as they once were. I also don't see as many other teams emerging with strong squads like there was with Emmetsburg and West Sioux for a couple of years. So maybe things are starting to even out again, I guess we will just have to wait and see.
One thing I will say though is after having lived in a few different states, and currently living in central Iowa, I have yet to see anything which resembles the insane basketball culture I grew up with in Northwest Iowa. I have even lived in a couple towns that won state basketball titles while I was there and it still didn't even begin to compare. Basketball truly is a way of life in Sioux County. From an early age the level of devotion to the game and the time put into making yourself better is truly remarkable. I wasn't even that great a player and I was in the gym year round, because that is what everyone else was doing.
That and how crazy tall Dutch kids get has made for many a championship as we have seen this past decade.
Does that mean good basketball isn't played in other parts of the state? Of course not. There are lots of great teams and players from all over the state, any of which could win a title this year or any year. But you can't deny what has happened in Northwest Iowa in recent history.
This post was edited on 2/20 2:39 PM by sarcastico
One thing I will say though is after having lived in a few different states, and currently living in central Iowa, I have yet to see anything which resembles the insane basketball culture I grew up with in Northwest Iowa. I have even lived in a couple towns that won state basketball titles while I was there and it still didn't even begin to compare. Basketball truly is a way of life in Sioux County. From an early age the level of devotion to the game and the time put into making yourself better is truly remarkable. I wasn't even that great a player and I was in the gym year round, because that is what everyone else was doing.
That and how crazy tall Dutch kids get has made for many a championship as we have seen this past decade.
Does that mean good basketball isn't played in other parts of the state? Of course not. There are lots of great teams and players from all over the state, any of which could win a title this year or any year. But you can't deny what has happened in Northwest Iowa in recent history.
This post was edited on 2/20 2:39 PM by sarcastico
Honestly, NW IA has the perfect storm for having a lot of successful basketball programs. There was mention of tall Dutch kids, but it is the truth. The families that grow up in NW IA tend to stay in NW IA, and those families tend to be taller than in most other parts of the state... Tall people keep on getting taller up there. Another fact is... it's colder than most other parts of the state in the winter, and there is nothing to do up there other than play basketball in the winter. The small towns buy into the basketball culture and that is how the kids grow up.
Or more likely they didn't count Des Moines as SW Iowa. Use the I35 - Highway 30 intersection then go straight North/South and East/West as opposed to following the road.
To the guy who said the rich basketball history in NW Iowa is unlike anywhere else. I ask you what states you have lived in other than Iowa. This comment is insane. No wonder people up that way have inflated egos.
I'm not saying there are no other places that have such devotion to basketball. I am sure there are places in Indiana that surpass NW Iowa when it comes to basketball, but I haven't lived there. I am speaking from my own experience and that is all I can do. I have lived in South Dakota, Minnesota, and Michigan none of them had the passion for basketball I saw in NW Iowa or even close to it. Of course I can't even speak for those entire states just the area I lived in. I can only measure things by what I have experienced and I stand by what my experiences have shown me. NW Iowa really loves its basketball, more so than any where else I have been.
Nobody loves their pizza like the area of the state I live in. I mean nobody. I have lived in California, New York and Illinois. I can't speak for Chicago because I didn't live theire. I can only judge based on my experiences but I stand by what my experience has shown me. Nobody is devoted to their pizza like where I live. Our area of the state has won multiple blue ribbons at the state fair, proving our devotion stands above all. I realize other areas might like pizza. But we live it! We breathe it! We are pizza!!!!
Does your pizza have multiple trophies to back that up, cause if not it really is a very poor comparison. But I am glad you live in such a pizza loving area, sounds fantastic. I too love some good pizza, probably not as much as you being from there though. Still I should come and check it out.
The reality is NW Iowa wins a lot and we have every right to be proud of that. I have said over and over that doesn't mean we are always going to have the best team in the state, but for the past decade in the smaller classes it has been true more often than not. No comment anyone can make will change that fact.
The reality is NW Iowa wins a lot and we have every right to be proud of that. I have said over and over that doesn't mean we are always going to have the best team in the state, but for the past decade in the smaller classes it has been true more often than not. No comment anyone can make will change that fact.
So we all get the fact that some of you dislike Northwest Iowa, fine move on. It seems like you have some really good thoughts, maybe some of the comments could actually be directed to the topic of the thread instead of saying the same things in each post. I didn't see anything in the topic about the best pizza!!
It's one of those years in 3A anyways that there are quite a few really good teams throughout the state. Next year could be a whole different story. The state should not make the exception, even for Northwest Iowa of trying to split up the top teams. The way I see it, it will only make you more prepared for the next game, whether it is in a district final, sub-state final or in Des Moines. I do however like the idea someone had about the potential to re-seed after districts, I think that would at least be a good step in the right direction.
It's one of those years in 3A anyways that there are quite a few really good teams throughout the state. Next year could be a whole different story. The state should not make the exception, even for Northwest Iowa of trying to split up the top teams. The way I see it, it will only make you more prepared for the next game, whether it is in a district final, sub-state final or in Des Moines. I do however like the idea someone had about the potential to re-seed after districts, I think that would at least be a good step in the right direction.
Multiple trophies and blue ribbons! It's incredible really. But I'm sure it's just a phase. But for now, we are damn proud of the pizza we produce. No comment from any of you sub par pizza producing areas will ever change that fact. Hahaha. Jesus, you guys are strung a little tight huh?
Man, I really need to try this pizza! Is it Pizza Ranch or is there actually something better out there? What we really need to do is figure out a way to combine these two things our state does so well. Maybe they could throw a big pizza party for all the teams that qualify for state. I am sure that would motivate a lot of players to get there, I know it would me.
When public schools can go out and openly recruit athletes, then the playing field will be equal. Don't even bring up open enrollment, that has nopthing to do with it. Private schools can openly advertise for students....Its been a problem for years and Illinois finally did something about it. Now its time for Iowa to quit living in the dark ages and address the issue.
Are you serious ? I can give you multiple examples of players "transferring" between public schools. How about Sigourney? They just got lucky with two Czech national team players in four years that came as foreign exchange students? Randomly of course. One now playing professionally in Europe two years out of high school. How about the Iowa city west kid now playing for Williamsburg ? I can go on and on. Of course private schools advertise. How do you think they get students? They advertise for students, not athletes. Start listing the public to private school transfers and I'll list the public to public school transfers and let's see who had the longest list.
I believe last years state tourney featured a whopping 2 private schools in the 32 team field.
This post was edited on 2/22 12:25 PM by Saywhat2
I believe last years state tourney featured a whopping 2 private schools in the 32 team field.
This post was edited on 2/22 12:25 PM by Saywhat2
Northwest Iowa is the greatest area for high school basketball in the country. Places like North Jersey and Virginia don't even remotely come close to the NAIA type talent that comes out of Northwest Iowa.
When did this become a public vs private debate?
Hey Bulldog, a few years ago i know of a public school that would run newspaper adds in another school districts local paper to get kids to transfer over. I know of 2 districts that have done this. Like I mentioned before it was a few years ago so i have no link or anything to back this us.
Would you have a problem with this?
Hey Bulldog, a few years ago i know of a public school that would run newspaper adds in another school districts local paper to get kids to transfer over. I know of 2 districts that have done this. Like I mentioned before it was a few years ago so i have no link or anything to back this us.
Would you have a problem with this?
Public vs. Private
Northwest vs. Other Parts of the State
This is one of the whiniest states for high school sports.
Northwest vs. Other Parts of the State
This is one of the whiniest states for high school sports.
I would say there are 6 regions...
North of Ames.
FD to Grundy Center
Algona to Charles City
I consider North Central Iowa.
Ames south.
Perry to Grinnell.
Creston to Ottumwa.
South Central Iowa.
If NW Iowa is claiming Fort Dodge and FDSE that seems a little bogus.
2000-
NF and BH were NW Iowa
FDSE NC Iowa
Johnston and Pella Christian were SC Iowa
ICW SE Iowa
West Deleware NE Iowa
SC north. Is NW Iowa.
South of SC is SW Iowa.
Cedar Rapids North is NE Iowa.
South of Cedar Rapids is SE Iowa.
North of Ames.
FD to Grundy Center
Algona to Charles City
I consider North Central Iowa.
Ames south.
Perry to Grinnell.
Creston to Ottumwa.
South Central Iowa.
If NW Iowa is claiming Fort Dodge and FDSE that seems a little bogus.
2000-
NF and BH were NW Iowa
FDSE NC Iowa
Johnston and Pella Christian were SC Iowa
ICW SE Iowa
West Deleware NE Iowa
SC north. Is NW Iowa.
South of SC is SW Iowa.
Cedar Rapids North is NE Iowa.
South of Cedar Rapids is SE Iowa.
You guys are right, geography is the best way to split teams up. I totally agree, you have to beat the best to be the best. Whoever is in agreement, how does this scenario sound? This year Kentucky should play Duke in the 1st round. Forget seeding, they are close in proximity, lets play that game 1st. They could just as well play ISU vs UNI at Wells Fargo. They are in the same state! These comments make sense right?? According to you guys from outside of NW Iowa you should be all for it... Make the best teams in the NCAA play right away!Just like the boys from Boone do in Iowa! (i.e. Central Lyon vs BH or MOC/Spirit Lake). The CL/BH game will be a down to the wire battle, while the winner will probably go to Des Moines and win at least one of their 3 game by 20+. (i.e. Danville vs BH state championship 2 years ago/West Lyon vs Dunkerton last year) And to those of you who say NW Iowa basketball will dwindle out... I don't see that happening... But you can keep hoping someday it will so people like us will shut up on these discussion boards!
Of course NW Iowa deserves 2 or 3 teams to get to the state tournament(not disagreeing)
the original intent of the tournament was to bring the best teams from each region of the state together.. Not the best teams in the state. So using the NW Iowa logic lets say that 2 teams deserve to be at the state tournament (not disagreeing)
Who decides which 1 or 2 regions do not get to send teams? We would have to think of a new name for the event because the entire state is not represented so it isn't a state tournament. The location of BH and CL is 15 miles or so apart and located in the middle to western side of the County that each is in. Do we jump bunch of schools and move one of them out to put them in District 3 or District 16?
What is the solution? You are right about one thing we are tired of the complaining about it. We really do understand that NW basketball has been really good for a long while ( no need to give us a 15 year run down on the success of NW Iowa). But to that one region that is being told no you can't play this year what do we tell the kids Adults have destroyed so many good things with their desire to live their lives through their children. Let it play out.
What is the solution? You are right about one thing we are tired of the complaining about it. We really do understand that NW basketball has been really good for a long while ( no need to give us a 15 year run down on the success of NW Iowa). But to that one region that is being told no you can't play this year what do we tell the kids Adults have destroyed so many good things with their desire to live their lives through their children. Let it play out.
I have a better idea, close off the post-season to only those teams that have won their conference. If you can't win your own conference, you don't deserve the opportunity to be the state champion. Make the regular season mean something. All these games in Dec-Feb mean nothing if a team can get hot for 6-8 games and win the title.Originally posted by hawkeyefan4ever:
You guys are right, geography is the best way to split teams up. I totally agree, you have to beat the best to be the best. Whoever is in agreement, how does this scenario sound? This year Kentucky should play Duke in the 1st round. Forget seeding, they are close in proximity, lets play that game 1st. They could just as well play ISU vs UNI at Wells Fargo. They are in the same state! These comments make sense right?? According to you guys from outside of NW Iowa you should be all for it... Make the best teams in the NCAA play right away!Just like the boys from Boone do in Iowa! (i.e. Central Lyon vs BH or MOC/Spirit Lake). The CL/BH game will be a down to the wire battle, while the winner will probably go to Des Moines and win at least one of their 3 game by 20+. (i.e. Danville vs BH state championship 2 years ago/West Lyon vs Dunkerton last year) And to those of you who say NW Iowa basketball will dwindle out... I don't see that happening... But you can keep hoping someday it will so people like us will shut up on these discussion boards!
I agree with the person who said adults ruin everything for the kids. Just let them play and shut up. Most of the people who complain about this stuff who are reliving their high school dreams. Get over it. Only the strong survive. It's not like cupcakes ever win state titles. There is no way this truly happens. Yeah there can be upsets, but lets not act like thew teams who score upsets down in Des Moines aren't half decent teams. When was the last time some 5-15 team won a State Title?
What about the many conferences that have teams from multiple classes? What if you are a 1A team that finished 2nd in conference to a 3A school. You were the best school in your class for that conference but now you don't get to represent that class anymore? You would have way more people complaining than you do now. So then we would have to have all new conferences which only have one class each. That type of massive restructuring isn't really feasible. I do think you may be on to something with that Pizza Ranch scheme though. Who knew a ridiculous argument on a message board would lead to their demise?
The college basketball argument given earlier has no bearing on Iowa high school basketball. It is such a drastically different system you can't even compare the two. In college teams actually travel all over the country and play teams from a wide variety of conferences. This year Kentucky has played schools from the Big 12, ACC, Big East, and PAC 12. They are not nearly as limited geographically during the regular season with their play so why would they be with post season. In Iowa you just never see a team from Northwest Iowa play a team from Southwest Iowa until you get to state. You pretty much only play your geographical neighbors until that point. Thus we need to have a geographical factor when sending teams to the state tournament. And that is just the tip of the huge iceberg as to why that argument doesn't hold up.
As much as I love my Northwest Iowa basketball, as shown in this thread, I still believe you need to have all areas of the state represented at state. There really is no better way to truly determine who the best team is.
