Except I am not the only one that holds these thoughts, and the IHSAA is also listening. Hard to Be better, and get better when some of the best players from a district leave because the private school is winning championships. Hard to build on that when they heard the ads on the radio, commercials on tv, etc. Public schools do not do this. Private schools have always had an advantage.
Realignment Classifications
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Except I am not the only one that holds these thoughts, and the IHSAA is also listening. Hard to Be better, and get better when some of the best players from a district leave because the private school is winning championships. Hard to build on that when they heard the ads on the radio, commercials on tv, etc. Public schools do not do this. Private schools have always had an advantage.
Or Regina can "Crean" a few more kids and drop to 8-man and get the same result.
A muliplier used by Illinois would bump DB to A football. That would be fun to see them compete against Regina for a state title.
We could see the next Alabama-Clemson or Cleveland-Golden State between those two at the 8-man level.
Meanwhile, Pine and cid will be like "derp welp tha numbers say wat da numbers say..........
"I'm sure they would make the same argument for any school dropping down to classes they don't have any business being in. Like if Valley suddenly lost a bunch of kids and moved to 2A to take on the likes of Saydel, and PCM and Centerville and Des Moines Christian.
But hey the BEDS numbers are similar so it must be fair, end of story!
Or Regina can "Crean" a few more kids and drop to 8-man and get the same result.
We could see the next Alabama-Clemson or Cleveland-Golden State between those two at the 8-man level.
Meanwhile, Pine and cid will be like "derp welp tha numbers say wat da numbers say..........
I'm sure they would make the same argument for any school dropping down to classes they don't have any business being in. Like if Valley suddenly lost a bunch of kids and moved to 2A to take on the likes of Saydel, and PCM and Centerville and Des Moines Christian.
But hey the BEDS numbers are similar so it must be fair, end of story!
Except it is not. It would be like Dowling dropping to 3A after dominating 4A for years. Essentially what Regina is doing
https://www.iahsaa.org/resources/general/
Question to clarify if someone could. The above link contains enrollment info. Why is there such a discrepancy in student numbers when you compare bed count and the football classification resource for individual schools, there is significant variance in numbers. What is the reason behind this?
The bed count which is 9-12
I saw that originally. Better wording on my part would be why ‘18-‘19 bed count used in the bed count report, while “Football Classification” document references only enrollment. Classifications of schools is driven by bed count correct.
Do not see why each report (bed count and classification reports) would introduce a distinction between beds and enrollment. Both reports titled as 19-20. Why not congruent to each other? What is the value of displaying each differently and not on par with each other? Beds drives classifications anyway correct?
Question to clarify if someone could. The above link contains enrollment info. Why is there such a discrepancy in student numbers when you compare bed count and the football classification resource for individual schools, there is significant variance in numbers. What is the reason behind this?
The bed count which is 9-12
I saw that originally. Better wording on my part would be why ‘18-‘19 bed count used in the bed count report, while “Football Classification” document references only enrollment. Classifications of schools is driven by bed count correct.
Do not see why each report (bed count and classification reports) would introduce a distinction between beds and enrollment. Both reports titled as 19-20. Why not congruent to each other? What is the value of displaying each differently and not on par with each other? Beds drives classifications anyway correct?
Some pretty inaccurate and ridiculous posts from Calmhawk here.
I could try to explain and correct, but I can see it would be pointless.
I could try to explain and correct, but I can see it would be pointless.
The BED count is 9-11 from this year for next year. That information is out on the department of education website, I haven't found the parochial numbers but I really haven't looked for them. They haven't made a sheet yet to put on the IAHSAA website. I wish they would as they are much easier to use.
A muliplier used by Illinois would bump DB to A football. That would be fun to see them compete against Regina for a state title.
The multiplier that Illinois uses would not do that. The Illinois multiplier applies to all non boundary schools. In Iowa there is a pesky little thing called open enrollment which for the vast majority of schools makes them non boundary schools. Nice effort. Is this what we have to look forward to?
Other than the facts don’t match that premise you have it exactly right. Keep working, twice a day you may be right
Or Regina can "Crean" a few more kids and drop to 8-man and get the same result.
We could see the next Alabama-Clemson or Cleveland-Golden State between those two at the 8-man level.
Meanwhile, Pine and cid will be like "derp welp tha numbers say wat da numbers say..........
I'm sure they would make the same argument for any school dropping down to classes they don't have any business being in. Like if Valley suddenly lost a bunch of kids and moved to 2A to take on the likes of Saydel, and PCM and Centerville and Des Moines Christian.
But hey the BEDS numbers are similar so it must be fair, end of story!
Makes perfect sense, let’s get some kids out of the school and risk getting into financial troubles so we can win a championship. Guessing you did well in business school.
So let me get this straight Kuemper and Regina just called up the association and said hey we want to win championships so put us in a lower class? And the association said ok? Is that how that happened in your mind? You make it seem so easy.
Forgive me if I’m wrong but are private schools funded by the state like public schools because if not why would they lower costs to not pick up any additional students?
I think what you fail to realize is parents send there kids to private schools A) for there faith B) education C) because they as parents went to that private school or just a private school in general and want the same for there kids or D) all of the above.
So because private schools are within the guidelines of what class to be in determined by the state, and they are winning and public schools are not we should punish those 15-18 year olds so it’s easy for others?
I’m just not understanding the logic in any of this.
Can you break down the public funding? What it’s for and how much of their funding is public?
https://www.desmoinesregister.com/s...ion-school-choice-millions-funding/715596002/
Not sure this answers all of your questions, but it does show the state is giving public money to private/home schools.
If open enrollment is the sole argument that makes the playing field level, then I guess I will have to agree to disagree here. I am not saying what private schools are doing is wrong. I am saying the playing field is not fair. Some states have private schools vs each other.
IMO football should have private schools districts for each class. Like 8 man has a private school district. and so on for A-4A. The winner of the district goes to the playoffs and the other schools qualify by using the RPI. If nothing is going to change that would help. In basketball/ wrestling/ baseball/ track they get put into the same substate/ sectional/ district during playoff time.
My frustration with the schools that are dropping is due to them being competitive in their old class. My other frustration is the smaller school class like 1A on down, competes with Private schools from LARGE population areas. Some from 3A towns that are large to huge metro areas like Des Moines, IC, CB, Waterloo, etc. They can pull whoever then need from those areas. I view that as not fair when they have to play against rural competition for championships.
IMO football should have private schools districts for each class. Like 8 man has a private school district. and so on for A-4A. The winner of the district goes to the playoffs and the other schools qualify by using the RPI. If nothing is going to change that would help. In basketball/ wrestling/ baseball/ track they get put into the same substate/ sectional/ district during playoff time.
My frustration with the schools that are dropping is due to them being competitive in their old class. My other frustration is the smaller school class like 1A on down, competes with Private schools from LARGE population areas. Some from 3A towns that are large to huge metro areas like Des Moines, IC, CB, Waterloo, etc. They can pull whoever then need from those areas. I view that as not fair when they have to play against rural competition for championships.
So Gavin Williams went to Dowling for the education? All kids that go to Private schools do not go for the extra curriculars? I have seen kids leave to go play at private schools for the sole purpose of winning.
I've seen kids leave private schools for the sole purpose of winning.
There are far more public school open enrollments for sports than people deciding to pay for private school. Many, many more.
People are caught up in the classifications, but what is being ignored is that a number of private schools are seeing reduced enrollment. This should make private school haters happy, but it's just a different group that's upset now. And, this will always be the case.
Always has to be some excuse.
If it wasn't 'private schools', it would be 'open enrollment', or 'urban vs. rural schools', or whatever reason could be blamed for the reason that Calmhawk's school didn't win it all this year.
But, it most certainly wouldn't ever be that some other school was just better.
There are far more public school open enrollments for sports than people deciding to pay for private school. Many, many more.
People are caught up in the classifications, but what is being ignored is that a number of private schools are seeing reduced enrollment. This should make private school haters happy, but it's just a different group that's upset now. And, this will always be the case.
Always has to be some excuse.
If it wasn't 'private schools', it would be 'open enrollment', or 'urban vs. rural schools', or whatever reason could be blamed for the reason that Calmhawk's school didn't win it all this year.
But, it most certainly wouldn't ever be that some other school was just better.
I don't think anyone is happy when Parochial schools lose enrollment, or at least they don't hope for that.
Pine I don't see how you don't understand or completely disagree with smaller classification parochial schools in larger cities have an advantage. If nothing else you can say that kids at these schools have many more resources easily available to them do to the fact that they are in a larger community that the kids from smaller communities that they are competing against do not have or must drive an hour or more to receive.
Do kids open enroll for athletic purposes? Yes, you will never see say that kids don't do that. But I think at the 8 man, A or 1A level you don't see that nearly as much as in the 3A and 4A level. The exceptions would be the smaller schools that are near larger cities, like West Branch, Dike New Hartford, AP, etc. I doubt a school like Wapello or Columbus Junction are getting too many open enrollees for athletic purposes.
Just out of curiosity why would you say that in the Cook family the boys went to Regina but the girl went to West?
Pine I don't see how you don't understand or completely disagree with smaller classification parochial schools in larger cities have an advantage. If nothing else you can say that kids at these schools have many more resources easily available to them do to the fact that they are in a larger community that the kids from smaller communities that they are competing against do not have or must drive an hour or more to receive.
Do kids open enroll for athletic purposes? Yes, you will never see say that kids don't do that. But I think at the 8 man, A or 1A level you don't see that nearly as much as in the 3A and 4A level. The exceptions would be the smaller schools that are near larger cities, like West Branch, Dike New Hartford, AP, etc. I doubt a school like Wapello or Columbus Junction are getting too many open enrollees for athletic purposes.
Just out of curiosity why would you say that in the Cook family the boys went to Regina but the girl went to West?
SO what do you think about putting all private schools in say 1A basketball in the same district for postseason play. What is wrong with that idea?
If you are going by numbers, it would make a ton of sense as there are less private schools than public by a wide margin. Maybe even make it 2 districts if it is an issue for travel
Yes, being near a larger city is an advantage. An advantage shared by both private and public schools.
There is a reason why West Branch, Solon, Lone Tree and many like them are better than most. Their proximity to a large urban area. Put West Branch in southwest Iowa and they would not be where they are today.
I agree, the open enrollments are to good, established programs, but in all classes. The rich get richer every time, and who can blame the parents or the kids really?
Your Cook example is a good one. Regina wins a girls state basketball championship if she stayed at Regina instead of transferring to West. That was one of Regina's best girl's basketball teams ever, just missed a title and she lead West to the Title that year over City High. That private to public transfer cost Regina a state title. I never mentioned it or complained.
Her AAU basketball friends and teammates played there and she had recruiting aspirations. It worked, she is now a member of the Iowa women's basketball team which is amazing.
Even Brauns left Regina for West as well. He very well may have put the Regina boys team over the top this year too.
So, while people make up stories that private schools get all these kids. The truth is that they also lose their best players to the local bigger (free) schools, which is a bigger impact.
Two 2A basketball teams with a shot to win it all this year are where they are because of public school transfers. West Sioux gets Coppock from Newell-Fonda and Camanche gets LJ Henderson from 4A Clinton.
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Why single out all private schools, when you really only have a problem with the success of 1 or 2?
How about we put all successful 1A schools in the same district so some other schools can have a chance to make the state tournament? What is wrong with that idea? Is that what you're looking for?
No, I am looking for provisions for private schools in the small classes. What is wrong with all the private schools playing together when there are only 1 or 2 successful? It seems like it would be fair if that is the case right?
So they just miss a state title because 1 girl leaves. What did they get that year 2nd?
It has been noted that the West Sioux kid went there because his mom got a principal or administrative job, it was not for sports only. And it is not like Newell Fonda was missing much with how many kids they have playing 8 man football (40-50 kids).
It must be exhausting caring this much about the parochial school vs public school issues. There are obvious advantages to sending kids to private school, that's why they do it. Do some do it for the sole purpose of sports? Sure. So do public school open enrollees. The state sets the standards and benchmarks for classification so maybe bark up that very tall tree instead of tirelessly backing your argument on here. I highly doubt Regina's coach is asking families to switch schools so they become class A, same for Don Bosco. They play where the state says they should. Now teams well over the benchmark for 8 man still being allowed to play down when the state has said otherwise is an issue that definitely needs to be addressed soon.
The arguments are interesting ... "These parochial schools are dropping down a class just so they can dominate!" while at the same time "I know these parochial schools are losing students they should drop their tuition rates to bring in more kids!"
Parochial schools are not falsely limiting their enrollments just so they can play in a lower class. They want as many students as will come and pay their tuition. They aren't going to turn kids away just so they can play in A instead of 1A. That's ridiculous and you should feel bad for making that argument.
As has been mentioned earlier, there are three or four parochial schools with enrollments that would permit them to play 8-player football, yet they choose to keep playing the 11-player game in Class A. Why isn't anyone making a claim that they're gaming the system? Oh, right, because they're actually working against their own self-interest to stay in A.
Parochial schools are not falsely limiting their enrollments just so they can play in a lower class. They want as many students as will come and pay their tuition. They aren't going to turn kids away just so they can play in A instead of 1A. That's ridiculous and you should feel bad for making that argument.
As has been mentioned earlier, there are three or four parochial schools with enrollments that would permit them to play 8-player football, yet they choose to keep playing the 11-player game in Class A. Why isn't anyone making a claim that they're gaming the system? Oh, right, because they're actually working against their own self-interest to stay in A.
I just wanted to touch on this notion “the private schools in each class should be in their own district!” and see how that plays out.
in 4A Dowling would win their “district” every year, because they’d be the only member.
In 3A it’s a 4-team district with Assumption, Wahlert, Xavier ... and Heelan (no travel issues there).
2A has just Des Moines Christian and Unity Christian ... and do you force West Burlington Notre Dame to end their partnership with the public school?
Finally in 1A you actually can get a 5-team district, with 4 of them at least able to sorta use Highway 20/30 (from Dyersville through Waterloo to Hull, with a side trip to Carroll) ... it’s just Pella Christian way out of the way.
There aren’t any simple answers that you can just throw out and think it’ll solve everything. Competitive balance is complicated, and it’s not just a private v. public school issue.
in 4A Dowling would win their “district” every year, because they’d be the only member.
In 3A it’s a 4-team district with Assumption, Wahlert, Xavier ... and Heelan (no travel issues there).
2A has just Des Moines Christian and Unity Christian ... and do you force West Burlington Notre Dame to end their partnership with the public school?
Finally in 1A you actually can get a 5-team district, with 4 of them at least able to sorta use Highway 20/30 (from Dyersville through Waterloo to Hull, with a side trip to Carroll) ... it’s just Pella Christian way out of the way.
There aren’t any simple answers that you can just throw out and think it’ll solve everything. Competitive balance is complicated, and it’s not just a private v. public school issue.
Ultimately my issue with competative balance, as has been stated, as that when you go to make a pick a who will win a state title in say football next year for each class who would you pick?
8man - DB
A - Regina
1A - ?
2A - ?
3A - Xavier
4A - Dowling
Those would be the picks most years right?
When private schools are dominating the championship ranks it gets old. Why is this happening? That question should be asked. How is it possible? another that should be asked. I am not going to say their coaching is head and shoulders above the rest of the state. It is because of who they have on their roster with the coaching. They reload their roster every year. How can that be in a state with the population as it is? Part of it is because of the kids that enroll in the school. Part of it is the kids that attend are there for a certain sport program. Saying it is because of strictly religion and academics is not always the case.
When a school like DB is dominating the competition like they have with a BEDs around 80 and winning against schools that are in the 110s-120s it makes you wonder how they do that for 8 years running. When you look at schools with similar BEDs of 80 and see how they cannot maintain that success it also makes you wonder how DB can do it. Also those other schools with BEDs in the 80s are usually not located near large metro areas like DB. All I am saying is that some things needs to be questioned and explored. Keeping as is will only continue the trend of private schools winning championships. Regina located in a large metro should not be playing A football. There will be 1 or 2 teams annually that might be able to compete with them and DB, but after those schools talent level changes and BEDs number fluctuate, the Private schools are always the ones left standing at the end of the day.
Some of my statements may be exaggeration as not all are happening in 1 school, but a collective generalization of all private schools. Some recruit, some offer financial assistance, some advertise on radio, billboard, TV, some pull kids from large metro areas and stay small. A small public school in middle of nowhere Iowa cannot compete with that on a year to year basis.
8man - DB
A - Regina
1A - ?
2A - ?
3A - Xavier
4A - Dowling
Those would be the picks most years right?
When private schools are dominating the championship ranks it gets old. Why is this happening? That question should be asked. How is it possible? another that should be asked. I am not going to say their coaching is head and shoulders above the rest of the state. It is because of who they have on their roster with the coaching. They reload their roster every year. How can that be in a state with the population as it is? Part of it is because of the kids that enroll in the school. Part of it is the kids that attend are there for a certain sport program. Saying it is because of strictly religion and academics is not always the case.
When a school like DB is dominating the competition like they have with a BEDs around 80 and winning against schools that are in the 110s-120s it makes you wonder how they do that for 8 years running. When you look at schools with similar BEDs of 80 and see how they cannot maintain that success it also makes you wonder how DB can do it. Also those other schools with BEDs in the 80s are usually not located near large metro areas like DB. All I am saying is that some things needs to be questioned and explored. Keeping as is will only continue the trend of private schools winning championships. Regina located in a large metro should not be playing A football. There will be 1 or 2 teams annually that might be able to compete with them and DB, but after those schools talent level changes and BEDs number fluctuate, the Private schools are always the ones left standing at the end of the day.
Some of my statements may be exaggeration as not all are happening in 1 school, but a collective generalization of all private schools. Some recruit, some offer financial assistance, some advertise on radio, billboard, TV, some pull kids from large metro areas and stay small. A small public school in middle of nowhere Iowa cannot compete with that on a year to year basis.
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This whole topic (why “some” private schools seem to consistently excel in FB and certain other sports) is rather simple to explain. Typically the families who are willing to pay for their children’s education (in addition to paying for others through their property taxes) are not only demonstrating being hyper invested in their child’s education (and sometimes spiritual life) but due to their ability to financially support this decision, they also tend to be overachievers in their home and professional life. Yes, this is a broad and sweeping generalization but if you’re familiar with families from each (private and public) you’ll find on average this is the case, realizing there’s always exceptions. This observation is predicated on data and my own experiences having children in both parochial and public schools, it’s just a fact. So tweaking classes may provide some parity benefits (primarily in smaller classes) but I think you’ll find the higher achieving (typically more affluent) public schools in said class will replace the previously dominant private school(s).
If you look at 8 man football, it would not be unrealistic to put the private schools in their own district. you would have Siouxland Christian, Remsen St Mary, Don Bosco, Grandview, It gives you 3 games and then you schedule 6 out of district games according to your area teams. Winner goes to the playoffs and the others go to the RPI for playoffs. I can see Grandview becoming a decent program in the future, as well as Siouxland Christian. Just an idea
I guess how I fail to see that it's even a real problem. Some programs are better than others. It's due to a number of factors.
This will always be the case. If it's not public/private, then it's going to be urban/rural, free/reduced lunch, open enrollment, school sharing agreements, etc.
There will always be some squeaky wheel who doesn't think it's 'fair' because they aren't winning.
But, if you change the rules so they can win...then another squeaky wheel will pop up because now they aren't winning.
This will always be the case. If it's not public/private, then it's going to be urban/rural, free/reduced lunch, open enrollment, school sharing agreements, etc.
There will always be some squeaky wheel who doesn't think it's 'fair' because they aren't winning.
But, if you change the rules so they can win...then another squeaky wheel will pop up because now they aren't winning.
Your response was a nice effort.Makes perfect sense (Because I'm the one that said it?
However....
Good game, cid. Until next time......
I have an idea. What if......you keep doing what you're doing............and continue to lose more, instead of winning championships?
Huh? Yeah?
I have no issue with private schools in the 2A-4A ranks, it is the lower levels that I have an issue with. It is a clear advantage to winning consistently at those levels in 8 man -1A. most programs at those levels cannot maintain success like the private schools can year in and year out. People keep saying well just get better. Hard to do when you have to compete with a school your size located in population bases that have 10,000 students within a 15-20 mile radius.
You complain about 'private' schools at the beginning or your post, but then pivot to the actual problem being population and proximity to an urban area.
Which affects both private and public schools. Small public schools around urban areas traditionally have strong programs for the same reason, while having the advantage of being tuition free.
Kids who would otherwise be at Iowa City High or West High are playing for West Branch, Solon, Clear Creek, Mid-Prairie, Lisbon, Lone Tree... Happens around every decent sized city across the entire state.
Funny how Heelan hasn't been mentioned once in any of this, why? because they're not as successful as they once were? Success of others is your issue? Heelan is in a city that is plenty big and can hand pick kids if they wanted (and have) but open enrollments to public schools are taking over more of Sioux City now a days so that makes it ok?
Beds are misleading with DB, they are also the highest percent in boys vs girls at 60%. Wonder why that hard work and great tradition isn't helping their girls sports.
This man right here, deserves a beer. If you're ever in God's county NWIA let me know
