North Linn poor sportsmanship & running up score

[theocia]

Thought this example of poor sportsmanship deserved its own thread.
Already has 4+ games of running up the score and playing starters well into the 2nd half when leading by 70+.

Know what this tells us coach?

1. You have terrible sportsmanship.
2. You must enjoy humiliating teenagers.
3. You play an incredibly weak schedule.

Talk to some of your peers. It's easy to get a game that's out of hand over in a hurry.
Pull your starters, no press, work the ball around,.......

Would love to have someone from North Linn come on and defend this bad behavior.

Shame on you!

 

[cidhawkeye]

Some interesting stats in some of their games.

 

[Pinehawk]

I had noticed the same thing. Looks like poor coaching and poor sportsmanship from the outside looking in.

Looks like 101 out of the 105 points in their recent 105-8 win were scored by Juniors and Seniors.

 

[theocia]

Some interesting stats in some of their games.

111-28 (21 in the 4th qtr)
102-26
115-31
105-8
Plus 3 more by 50+

 

[Red87]

I'll defend NL a little here. North Linn's goal is win a state championship this year. That's simple. In getting better, they have to play the style they believe in, as hard as they can, in hopes they'll be ready come March. They have no control over their conference schedule, and thus no control of the relative strength or weakness of their opponents. They shouldn't apologize for being better. I'm of the firm belief that the first halves of games (in all sports), are fair game. if it's a varsity contest, you are under no obligation to change anything for the first half. In this game, NL scored 73 points in the first, meaning they only scored 32 in the second. Talking to people who saw the game, they pulled back their pressure and simply played hard basketball with their second and third team guys (who are good in their own right). Further, is it not more condescending and thus poor sportsmanship to intentionally NOT PLAY? Like a dad going easy on his kid? Their second and third team guys deserve to be able to play hard basketball and be productive as well. Now, I agree a team needs to stop pressing at a certain time (and NL has indeed been guilty of crossing that blurry line in the past), and one could argue that NL needs to learn to purely guard in the half court with their starters, as they will probably have to at the State tournament. But, that's their philosophy, to press, guard everywhere, and run, that they feel will get them a state title, and they have the right to perfect that, for at least a half every night.

 

[Earvin32]

Well, I attended a HS ballgame this year where one team had a 40+ point lead at halftime and did not play a starter the entire second half...nor did they press. This to me is proper. Program development, opportunity to teach/instruct the up and comers in a varsity contest. This is HS, how would you feel on the side of those losses? Those poor kids. Not appropriate in the HS game.

 

[VanderHoops]

I don't buy that Red.
I'll use my team as an example. I looked back at Western's last 5 years (like many, their goal is always to win a state championship).
They had 40+ games where the mercy rule (up by 35 in 2nd half) came into play.
Only twice did they win by 60+
Only 6 were by 50+
Often they won by less than 35.

Occasionally a game gets out of hand when your subs get red-hot during garbage time or the opponents speed things up by popping 3's as soon as they cross the half court (Camanche last year at state). But scores like North Linn is putting up tells me one thing: they disrespect their opponents.
Guessing this coach dunks on his 5 year old kid on their nerf hoop at home too.

Taking your foot off the gas is easy. You can still play good, fundamental ball, & I'd argue that they (and North Linn) get plenty of good competition in practice every day.

 

[theocia]

Guessing this coach dunks on his 5 year old kid on their nerf hoop at home too.

The coach has one of his kids playing.......

My guess: padding stats for his kid and trying to set some kind of record for scoring margin. (coach: that's not an official stat)

He's been coaching a long time, you'd think he'd know better.

 

[Greenway12]

You don't beat a team 105-8. You just don't. The starters scored 87 points in the game. There was a running clock in the 2nd half so of course they will score fewer points. Do you know how easy it is to waste time just by subbing frequently in a running clock situation? Many times you see 4-8 points a quarter by the winning team in a running clock game.

He only played 10 guys. The other team was 0-9 coming in - why not have jv or fresh sitting on the bench and play them the 2nd half? Was the coach fearful there would be some big comeback from the 73-4 halftime score? C'mon man.

 

[iowalongs230]

I'm somewhat sympathetic to NL because Grand View Christian got accused of a lot of this last year on their way to the state championship (notice I said "somewhat," please read to the end of this post). The focus in extreme blowout games is on who you chose to play and how you chose to play, so let's look at each of those.

Who you chose to play (the players you put in the game)

• Someone said if you're playing a really bad team you should dress your freshmen and sophomores and play them. I don't get that at all. This is a varsity game, they are playing their varsity players and you should play yours. It would be extremely disrespectful to start your JV or Freshmen team. And when do you determine that you need to do that, when BCMoore predicts you to win by 90? What about 80? 70? 50? If you start doing at some point, then people will start demanding you do it for games you're favored to win by 40.
• Then of course it's said that you should pull your first string. Well, there are two issues that make this not as easy a solution as you'd think. First, in quite a number of games last year (12-14) due to their run and gun style of play, GVC was up 25-30 by the end of the 1st quarter. So they're supposed to pull their starters at that point? So for almost half of their games, the starters are only playing 1, maybe 2 quarters? What happens when they get to the state tourney and have to play full games against tough competition? Will they be in shape? I'm more sympathetic to not playing them in the second half, but again that means for half of the games that season, your starters will only be playing half of the game. The second problem is that the bench players may still be far more talented that the other team's starters.

How they chose to play (strategy)

• I understand what Red87 says about NL's style of play because that is GVC's as well--aggressive defense (at least half court if not 3/4 court) and a run-and-gun offense with a lot of breakaways and a lot of 3s. So the first thing people say is take off the press. Ok, fair enough. After a couple of games early in the season where perhaps they kept the press on a bit too long, I cannot remember a game where they pressed after getting up 25-30 points.
• The reason they still won big is because of the style of play that they were taught. So what is the coach supposed to tell them? Stop playing defense? Stop shooting open shots? Completely change your style of play for half (or more) of the games for the season, and only play your style of play when it's a close game? GVC only had 2 close games all year before the state tourney, against Pella and Ankeny Christian. So for 22 games play stall ball, and for 2 games play run and gun? It's like a football team that plays up tempo, no huddle offense, but because they're playing a bad team there's supposed to play a completely different style of offense that they don't practice?
• Yes, you can pull the press, and yes you can tell them to stop trapping, but you simply cannot tell your kids to stop playing defense. If you do, it will become very obvious and I think that's disrespectful to the other team. If you play run and gun for the first half and then say "Ok, we have to pass it 8 times before we shoot" in the 2nd half, it will become very obvious that you're toying with them and they'll be just as frustrated with that.

VanderHoops, with all due respect, Western plays a much tougher schedule than GVC did last year or NL is playing this year. When you are really good and the other team is really, really bad, it's just difficult for even your 3rd string not to score points. (This is why GVC went Independent and really beefed up their schedule this year.)

Now, HAVING SAID ALL THAT, I do wonder about the North Linn scores this year. In the first 8 wins of the season last year, GVC had wins of 87, 82, and 87. For the rest of the season, they had a couple of wins in the 70s and a few in the 60s but for the most part I think they backed it off a bit.

Here's my question: How much do you think BCMoore factors into this? Do you think some coaches are tempted to try to keep up with the predicted scores to keep their ranking up? I find it interesting that at one point BCM had predicted NL would beat Cedar Valley Christian and Wyoming Midland by 95+ points, and whaddya know, they won by 84 and 97.

 

[iowalongs230]

You don't beat a team 105-8. You just don't. The starters scored 87 points in the game. There was a running clock in the 2nd half so of course they will score fewer points. Do you know how easy it is to waste time just by subbing frequently in a running clock situation? Many times you see 4-8 points a quarter by the winning team in a running clock game.

He only played 10 guys. The other team was 0-9 coming in - why not have jv or fresh sitting on the bench and play them the 2nd half? Was the coach fearful there would be some big comeback from the 73-4 halftime score? C'mon man.

Ok, this is a fair point. This seems to be taking it too far.

 

[EHS1505]

I had noticed the same thing. Looks like poor coaching and poor sportsmanship from the outside looking in.

Looks like 101 out of the 105 points in their recent 105-8 win were scored by Juniors and Seniors.

They have 10 kids listed on quikstats and 8 are Juniors and Seniors. I have no clue how many they actually dress, but based on those numbers, that stat is not inappropriate if that is all they dress.

Without having a dog in the fight and knowing nothing about North Linn besides what I see on quikstats, a couple of scaled down thoughts:

Sometimes it's more embarrassing to have a team let off the gas. I've seen teams take a knee on their opponents 1 yard line in football with a minute + remaining in the 1st half. I've seen baseball coaches hold their kids from scoring on passed balls as the opponents catcher walked to the back stop. To me, those situations are more embarrassing than another 6-7 points or 2-3 runs would have been.

Would agree that blowouts are a good time to give others an opportunity to play. Would disagree that it's ALL on the winning coach to keep the score reasonable. There is no shot clock. Go into a stall offense right away if you have to. Turn it into a 4-2 type game. As the over-matched team, you'll need that skill in other games where it might actually matter, might as well practice against the best.

 

[theocia]

They have 10 kids listed on quikstats and 8 are Juniors and Seniors. I have no clue how many they actually dress, but based on those numbers, that stat is not inappropriate if that is all they dress.

Agree. You have a good team, you know you'll have a lot of blowouts, you'll pull up JV kids for tournament: Pull them up now and let them play the garbage minutes.

[/QUOTE]Sometimes it's more embarrassing to have a team let off the gas. I've seen teams take a knee on their opponents 1 yard line in football with a minute + remaining in the 1st half. I've seen baseball coaches hold their kids from scoring on passed balls as the opponents catcher walked to the back stop. To me, those situations are more embarrassing than another 6-7 points or 2-3 runs would have been.[/QUOTE]Disagree. I think it shows class to limit scoring. It's not sitting down in centerfield or purposely throwing the ball into the stand, just being ultra conservative.
Everyone in the stands knows what's up, and I think most respect it.

In basketball, it SO EASY to burn time with a running clock. Sub 1 player in on every dead ball, walk the ball up the floor, and pass it around. I've seen teams try to get every player in the book, so they really work it around to get each guy a look. Kinda fun for the fans to watch too.

Conditioning is easy to solve in practice. A good practice should be MORE exhausting than playing 32 minutes

 

[Red87]

Iowalongs230, good post. That's basically the situation NL is in. You can't overstate the talent gap between NL and most of the 1A teams in their league (remember, NL is about 2 kids away from being 2A). Further, they actually only have less than 20 kids in the program 9-12. That's why they only suit 10 kids on varsity. Again, I'm not saying they never cross that nebulous "poor sportsmanship" line, but you can't summarily dismiss their dominance as being inherently wrong. It's not their fault nor burden that other teams are so far below them. I believe you actually disrespect the game when you don't play hard and don't try to play as well as you can with whoever is on the court.

I know their coach; trust me, he doesn't enjoy these games at all. he knows they aren't helping them get much better. But, it's his conference schedule, and he doesn't have to apologize for it. They play how they believe they should play for a half, and then they just play regular basketball. Can't do much beyond that.

 

[theocia]

I know their coach; trust me, he doesn't enjoy these games at all. he knows they aren't helping them get much better. But, it's his conference schedule, and he doesn't have to apologize for it. They play how they believe they should play for a half, and then they just play regular basketball. Can't do much beyond that.

He's flat out running up the score! Winning by 100 is an embarrassment. He knows what he's doing and has the ability to temper it down while still playing hard, fundamental basketball.
It sure looks like stat-padding for his son (including assists/steals)
He knows that All-State voters look almost solely at stats.

0-9 team ....No respect for that, it's just flat out cruel.
I hope they apologized.

 

[Red87]

He's flat out running up the score! Winning by 100 is an embarrassment. He knows what he's doing and has the ability to temper it down while still playing hard, fundamental basketball.
It sure looks like stat-padding for his son (including assists/steals)

0-9 team travels here from Wyoming?....No respect for that, it's just flat out cruel.
I hope they apologized.

You realize they traveled to Troy Mills from Wyoming, Iowa, right? Not the state.

 

[theocia]

You realize they traveled to Troy Mills from Wyoming, Iowa, right? Not the state.

Nope. My bad

 

[Earvin32]

This is a stat situation...pull your starters early and certain individuals don't obtain the stats they could playing a full game. They are trying to beat all-time state individual records. The only way to make sense of beating teams this bad.

 

[PNation]

My biggest thing with this is why didn't North Linn find a few better out of conference games to play this year? They knew in advance that they would have a darn good team this year so why did they not try to schedule a big 2A or 3A school to play. The only school who is truly a bigger school on their schedule is Monticello who I would call an average 2A team.

My guess is that they knew 2 or 3 years ago they knew that they would be good.

 

[AN96]

Tri Rivers teams get 2 non-conference games this year, so not much flexibility there.

Have you been to any NL games? The 2 I was at Hilmer, Miller, etc. were out early 3rd quarter. If they are trying to pad stats, wouldn't you leave them in longer?

Bottom line is NL is as good as anyone and there are some serious sub-par teams in their league. Should their kids who put in hours and years of work be penalized by playing half of each and every game?

 

[Hawk2015]

Iowalongs230, good post. That's basically the situation NL is in. You can't overstate the talent gap between NL and most of the 1A teams in their league (remember, NL is about 2 kids away from being 2A). Further, they actually only have less than 20 kids in the program 9-12. That's why they only suit 10 kids on varsity. Again, I'm not saying they never cross that nebulous "poor sportsmanship" line, but you can't summarily dismiss their dominance as being inherently wrong. It's not their fault nor burden that other teams are so far below them. I believe you actually disrespect the game when you don't play hard and don't try to play as well as you can with whoever is on the court.

I know their coach; trust me, he doesn't enjoy these games at all. he knows they aren't helping them get much better. But, it's his conference schedule, and he doesn't have to apologize for it. They play how they believe they should play for a half, and then they just play regular basketball. Can't do much beyond that.

NL probaby doesn't keep their BEDS stats as good as they keep their basketball stats...2 kids short of 2A seems like pretty good planning.

 

[AN96]

NL probaby doesn't keep their BEDS stats as good as they keep their basketball stats...2 kids short of 2A seems like pretty good planning.

Yes, because in this era of excessive school funding, I am sure the school would cheat their certified count and sacrifice that state money per student for the sake of a basketball team.

 

[VanderHoops]

IMO, there's no excuse for running up the score this high over and over.

I've sat through tons of games against over-matched opponents and its actually easier to control the score with the starters playing.
The subs are so anxious for playing time that its hard for them to throttle back. The starters have already scored, are better at ball control, and have less to prove, so if you feel the need to play the starters longer, go ahead! But don't use it as way to justify piling on a weak opponent.
Guess what? When you're up 50, its time to call off the dogs coach!

The fact that his son is the one racking up gaudy stats against weak players makes it look twice as bad.

There have been incidents of teams doing this in the past and the opposing coach just pulls his team off the floor.
In one case, a player was trying to personally score 100. Other team had enough and walked off: FORFEIT! Final score: 4-0 (1 basket per half).
Maybe this coach needs a wake-up call like this to get the message?

 

[Pinehawk]

I know if I were on the team getting beat 105-8, I would be looking to foul N. Linn's best player very hard and wouldn't mind a bit if it cost me or him a few games.

I'll be rooting for N. Linn's opponents from here on out.

None of the excuses or reasoning given in this thread hold up for me at all.

 

[cruhawk]

I'll defend NL a little here. North Linn's goal is win a state championship this year. That's simple. In getting better, they have to play the style they believe in, as hard as they can, in hopes they'll be ready come March. They have no control over their conference schedule, and thus no control of the relative strength or weakness of their opponents. They shouldn't apologize for being better. I'm of the firm belief that the first halves of games (in all sports), are fair game. if it's a varsity contest, you are under no obligation to change anything for the first half. In this game, NL scored 73 points in the first, meaning they only scored 32 in the second. Talking to people who saw the game, they pulled back their pressure and simply played hard basketball with their second and third team guys (who are good in their own right). Further, is it not more condescending and thus poor sportsmanship to intentionally NOT PLAY? Like a dad going easy on his kid? Their second and third team guys deserve to be able to play hard basketball and be productive as well. Now, I agree a team needs to stop pressing at a certain time (and NL has indeed been guilty of crossing that blurry line in the past), and one could argue that NL needs to learn to purely guard in the half court with their starters, as they will probably have to at the State tournament. But, that's their philosophy, to press, guard everywhere, and run, that they feel will get them a state title, and they have the right to perfect that, for at least a half every night.

This.

Plus, it's not one team's job to "hold back" or "call off the dogs"; it's the other team's job to stop them.

 

[StatewidePundit]

Let’s see
The Coach’s kid has over 100 assists in 9 games while averaging 24 pts and shooting 60 % ...who documents these stats ... Well of course the coach.
Nice try Coach. You are fooling no one. Enjoy keeping his fake stats during your kids future intramural games at UNI. And North Linn administrators do everyone a favor and ask this bush league egomaniac coach to resign.

 

[StatewidePundit]

This.

Plus, it's not one team's job to "hold back" or "call off the dogs"; it's the other team's job to stop them.

Not in high school sports ! especially little 1a ball in Iowa.

 

[cidhawkeye]

The sun don't shine on the same dogs rump every day. I have watched sports programs handle being the far more dominant team and win with class. I haven't been at any games so I can't make an informed decision, I looked at the % of points scored by the starters and went hmmmm....I saw only 10 on the varsity and went hmmmm....I read only 20 in the program for 9-12 and went ... what? For a fun style of hoops to play and in a larger 1A school that is surprising....... why is there only 20? Why only 10 to play varsity? Are they managing quarters for the kids? Any inside information would be interesting.

 

[Red87]

The sun don't shine on the same dogs rump every day. I have watched sports programs handle being the far more dominant team and win with class. I haven't been at any games so I can't make an informed decision, I looked at the % of points scored by the starters and went hmmmm....I saw only 10 on the varsity and went hmmmm....I read only 20 in the program for 9-12 and went ... what? For a fun style of hoops to play and in a larger 1A school that is surprising....... why is there only 20? Why only 10 to play varsity? Are they managing quarters for the kids? Any inside information would be interesting.

NL tries to play two levels of JV (fresh/soph and JV) with the other 10 kids as much as possible. In doing so, they only have so many quarters to go around. It's not uncommon for 1A schools to have 20 or less kids 9-12. And, NL has a very successful wrestling program as well. Their leading scorer, Miller, was a fantastic wrestler growing up and had to make a decision which sport to play in high school actually. Pretty much their entire bball team will state track guys and on a great baseball team as well. Again, I'm not saying they're not crossing the line some times in games. But, it's wrong to brand their coaches selfish, unethical, etc.

 

[Hawk2015]

I know if I were on the team getting beat 105-8, I would be looking to foul N. Linn's best player very hard and wouldn't mind a bit if it cost me or him a few games.

I'll be rooting for N. Linn's opponents from here on out.

None of the excuses or reasoning given in this thread hold up for me at all.

There is always a way to stop a team from scoring and I like the hard foul option. NL's coach would slow it down or pull his starters if there was a significant risk of injury involved.

 

[mtdew_fever]

I completely agree. It only takes one hard foul to set the tone. One opposing team will get stripped on the press and when a NL kid goes up for a layup he'll knocked down hard. Not saying that's the right thing to do, but it is inevitable.

North Linn obviously has a very good team. I have zero problems with them suiting up and playing only 10 guys. Their game is to press on defense to force turnovers and create easy baskets....however once a team is up by 30+, it does not help your team's development to continue to press against an over matched opponent.

North Linn's schedule does get a little more competitive starting tonight with Lisbon and a few games in a row after that.

There is always a way to stop a team from scoring and I like the hard foul option. NL's coach would slow it down or pull his starters if there was a significant risk of injury involved.

 

[AN96]

North Linn obviously has a very good team. I have zero problems with them suiting up and playing only 10 guys. Their game is to press on defense to force turnovers and create easy baskets....however once a team is up by 30+, it does not help your team's development to continue to press against an over matched opponent.

Again, have any of you that are questioning "inflated stats", etc been to any games? I have seen two of the blowouts. In both NL pulled the press off in the 1st quarter and starters played less than half the minutes in the 3rd quarter. To say they are trying to kid a certain kid stats is flat out wrong. These kids have done it the right way (no recruiting, etc) and have worked their tails off to get to this point. I guess that's the way of the world now. Anyone who is successful gets scrutinized while we try to cater to everyone and not hurt anyone's "feelings". Sometimes you are going to get your butt kicked, guess what it's going to happen in the real world too. Learn from it and move on. I would love to hear the opinions of these opposing coaches. In the games I saw, neither coach looked upset at the NL staff what so ever. The post game handshakes were cordial and there was conversation beyond the normal "good game" Maybe these coaches are aware of something that the rest of us are not.

 

[iowalongs230]

So for some of you, the solution for poor sportsmanship is to injure an opposing player? Nothing like a cheap shot to communicate how important good sportsmanship is!

 

[theocia]

.... Again, I'm not saying they're not crossing the line some times in games. But, it's wrong to brand their coaches selfish, unethical, etc.

I AM calling their coaches selfish and unethical.

I DON'T ever support intentionally trying to hurt a player in retaliation.

I put it almost entirely on the coaching staff for running up the score/padding stats.
That's exactly what they're doing!

North Linn isn't the first school to have a dominant team arise in a weak conference, but they are abusing it BIG TIME.

No respect for a program that continues to do this.

 

[theocia]

So for some of you, the solution for poor sportsmanship is to injure an opposing player? Nothing like a cheap shot to communicate how important good sportsmanship is!

Agree. Not the way to respond to bad sportsmanship.

Everyone in the gym sees they are doing something wrong. Don't give them any ammo to defend their bad behavior.

 

[theocia]

The sun don't shine on the same dogs rump every day. I have watched sports programs handle being the far more dominant team and win with class. I haven't been at any games so I can't make an informed decision, I looked at the % of points scored by the starters and went hmmmm....I saw only 10 on the varsity and went hmmmm....I read only 20 in the program for 9-12 and went ... what? For a fun style of hoops to play and in a larger 1A school that is surprising....... why is there only 20? Why only 10 to play varsity? Are they managing quarters for the kids? Any inside information would be interesting.

Having the 5 best JV players at the end of the bench to play out the 4th quarter does not affect the game count rule at all.

 

[StatewidePundit]

So for some of you, the solution for poor sportsmanship is to injure an opposing player? Nothing like a cheap shot to communicate how important good sportsmanship is!

Welcome to reality. Let's see big time 1A coach pull this bush league BS on CIML or MA coaches. Doubtful the post game greetings would be cordial either, unlike with the 1A PE teacher/coaches.

 

[AN96]

Let’s see
The Coach’s kid has over 100 assists in 9 games while averaging 24 pts and shooting 60 % ...who documents these stats ... Well of course the coach.
Nice try Coach. You are fooling no one. Enjoy keeping his fake stats during your kids future intramural games at UNI. And North Linn administrators do everyone a favor and ask this bush league egomaniac coach to resign.

You have obviously seen this team play to know these stats are wrong and "fooling everyone" then right?? Talk to anyone who has seen the kid play. He is on a different level. Period. And he is putting up these numbers in 2 1/2 quarters most nights.

 

[iowalongs230]

Welcome to reality. Let's see big time 1A coach pull this bush league BS on CIML or MA coaches. Doubtful the post game greetings would be cordial either, unlike with the 1A PE teacher/coaches.

I'm not entirely defending North Linn. I am suggesting that if you think it's OK to injure a high school kid, possibly putting his season or career in jeopardy, then you really need to rethink your sports priorities. There are other ways to express your displeasure over running up the score, a hard foul with the potential for serious injury (like when a kid is running full speed for a full court layup) is not one of them.

"PE teacher/coaches"...LOL

 

[Pinehawk]

I'm not suggesting it's the right way to handle it. I just wouldn't be surprised for poor sportsmanship to be met with poor sportsmanship, and N. Linn shouldn't be surprised when it happens.