Interesting Quess over in 3A Forum

[PNation]

Of the schools that you listed Harlan has always been a 3A never moved up. West Lyon back in the 90s during the start of their run was a 2A school then actually shrunk all the way down to a class A, and now has started to see enrollment increase again. West Sioux similar to West Lyon started as a bigger school, then shrunk now is gaining enrollment again. West Branch has been 1A forever except for a few years in 2A. Solon would be the one that you could say that had success in a smaller class then moved up.

West Sioux also has not been a great program for a long time, they used to be a very poor program.

I understand your argument but it isn't as true in public schools, it usually takes time for schools to adjust to playing in a higher classification, especially moving from 2A to 3A. Solon was able to do it because they were on an unbelievable steak as a program. Finally most schools that move up and have success are in well to do areas of the state, which is one of the biggest arguments people have been making as well.

Finally I think if you look at a lot of the recent parochial success most of these schools have been moving down in classes, and yes they have a smaller enrollment, but playing an 8 man, A or 1A schedule when you are essentially in a metro area that is 4A or in a few cases 3A you are going to have success, also when you are a successful 4A program and move down to 3A you are going to dominate.

 

[CalmHawk]

The same can be said for public schools. The same ones that are winning now that is.
Solon, West Lyon, Harlan, West Sioux, West Branch, the same schools that have established winning programs.
They would keep winning and have. Many of the schools listed won 1A or 2A championships, and are now doing the same thing at 2A and 3A.
Winning programs have: a winning culture, high expectations, access to resources, and stable programs.
To think it is as simple as a multiplier or free and reduced lunch is misguided.

They are in those classes because they have the BEDs to be in them. Harlan in 4A? West Lyon in 2A? West Sioux will come down a notch with their graduation class in2020. private schools would just reload. West Sioux has not population base to get to the semis every year. Solon in 4A would win?

 

[dtk913]

The same can be said for public schools. The same ones that are winning now that is.
Solon, West Lyon, Harlan, West Sioux, West Branch, the same schools that have established winning programs.
They would keep winning and have. Many of the schools listed won 1A or 2A championships, and are now doing the same thing at 2A and 3A.
Winning programs have: a winning culture, high expectations, access to resources, and stable programs.
To think it is as simple as a multiplier or free and reduced lunch is misguided.

I agree some would, but the percentages are not even close. There are far, far fewer public schools percentage-wise that could make a jump and be successful. So I am still wondering what you think the reason is that private schools have more of the qualities you mentioned "a winning culture, high expectations, access to resources, and stable programs"?

I am very familiar with a couple of the programs you mentioned. Solon is not a perennial title contender in 4A like they are in 3A. That is a huge difference. I think you could easily make the case for Xavier to be. West Branch is not a perennial title contender in 2A, but I think Regina would be.

The majority of the top private schools could move up a class and still be title contenders year in and year out. Very few of the top public schools could say the same year in and year out. Saying there is no difference is ridiculous.

 

[makelovenotwar]

I too was shocked they released this data and I had the following takeaways:

1. I was surprised by the anger directed towards the private schools.
2. I found the references to private schools keeping their enrollments down to stay in lower classes very surprising. My natural thinking given the closest private school is Wahlert is "that's not true, Wahlert wants more and more bodies not fewer." Still, I read some version of that comment so many times, I can't help wonder if maybe some of the smaller schools do somehow and for some reason limit enrollment.
3. I finally understand why people want different BEDS data for boys and girls. That always seemed odd to me in that the ratio is going to be 50-50 more or less. But the administrator that explained that is makes "shared programs" unworkable was my "oh, now I get it" moment. Both the boys and girls count in BEDS while the males may only shard the one sport.
4. The SES comments seemed very fair.
5. The 8 man football teams issue was new to me and the proposed 2 leagues makes sense.
6. Seems like support of making the classifications be more similarly sized was pretty widespread.

I have no idea if we will see a multiplier for private schools and/or SES corrections this cycle, but it certainly seems the writing is on the wall. It is coming, only question is when. My guess is we will also see additional classes in football. The challenge is going to be building a logical multiplier. There is no way Wahlert (or Waterloo Columbus or Beckman) fields a team if they get moved up a class. Just not very good at their current size.

 

[Pinehawk]

They will try to make it 'better', but it won't end up 'fixing' the 'problem', and I suspect there will be even more complaints.

 

[falconfanx3]

Private schools dominate the 8 man and IA basketball playoffs every year. There are advantages when you can pick who you want to enroll from areas where there are huge towns and cities to field those type of teams. It is not a secret to anyone and is frustrating because those schools do not have to work on a group of kids at say, 3rd grade and get them super competitive. Those schools just can wait it out and get kids to attend middle and high school and all of a sudden they are better. The advantage is huge. They also have a lot of sustained success whereas smaller rural schools go through competitive cycles. A multiplier only makes sense when you look at surrounding states.

^ this post right here officer, this is the stupidity I was telling you about

 

[cidhawkeye]

Yes private schools pick who they want to go there. which is why there is an enrollment process. Every kid going to a private school has to go through that. They can choose to not have kids attend or move on from them. It happens everywhere. Not sure why that is hard for private schools to accept that perception. And I am aware that private schools have kids playing together young, but they also have an easier time getting that one or two extra kids to put them over the edge each and every year, especially at programs within big city or suburban districts. To make things more competitive, that needs to be addressed with a multiplier. All I suggest is a level playing field. Now, public schools are starting to work the open enrollment system also, i get that, but that is a different issue. If you look in 8 man football and A football at the success level of Don Bosco and put the Illinois 1.65 multiplier to their BEDs, they go up to class A. Same can be said for a lot of other schools in 1A basketball. Smaller schools are getting sick of the Private schools dominating the championships at their levels. (Grandview in BB, Nueman in Baseball, Bosco in football). They are at a clear advantage in those places.

I was surprised at how many ‘educated’ people sounded so stupid in the comments made, thought that couldn’t be topped and then I read this post. What a small minded ‘my team got beat’ response. Unlike public schools private schools will die if they keep choosing to exclude students. Regina (a favorite whipping boy here) accepts foreign students who don’t contribute athletically. Why? To survive. The angst expressed in this post and the comments shows a very closed minded approach to the process. The post I am responding to? Wow is about it.

 

[Reasoned]

Yeah I must admit reading the sheer number of comments which expressed concerns regarding perceived private school advantages and a desire to “level the playing field”, so to speak, was quite surprising.

 

[Pinehawk]

Should it be surprising? Coaches are going to go after any opportunity to benefit their school.
If things haven’t been going well enough, then they think change is preferable.

 

[Reasoned]

I understand that dynamic but if you look at who filled out those surveys it was AD’s, Principals & SI’s (recognizing that coaches would have input and in smaller districts there’s considerable dual roles).

 

[woodsiding]

I hear that they are not doing the 5A now. I thought that was a good path. The new 4A would have been a blast to watch play out. Teams like Roosevelt, Washington, Davenport North, Dub Senior, Waterloo West would have become powerhouses. Then if they would have rotated the assignments (top 4 4A teams go to 5A and bottom 4 5A go to 4A) every district cycle you would have had the chance to see a whole new crop of schools get some added success on the field which would have lead to rebuilding programs.

 

[CalmHawk]

^ this post right here officer, this is the stupidity I was telling you about

How is it wrong? Public serves everyone. Private could take in a few extra kids if they wanted to, but they have their enrollment $$ to worry about. They vet students during the enrollment process, which anyone would in that position. Yes they would accept anyone and everyone, but not anyone and everyone has the opportunity to attend. It is as simple as that. The we want more kids argument is an excuse because if you would say lower the tuition, more students would be able to attend. It is a double edge sword of sorts. And a weak argument.

 

[CalmHawk]

I was surprised at how many ‘educated’ people sounded so stupid in the comments made, thought that couldn’t be topped and then I read this post. What a small minded ‘my team got beat’ response. Unlike public schools private schools will die if they keep choosing to exclude students. Regina (a favorite whipping boy here) accepts foreign students who don’t contribute athletically. Why? To survive. The angst expressed in this post and the comments shows a very closed minded approach to the process. The post I am responding to? Wow is about it.

When 5/8 of the smallest class in Iowa is private schools for the 2019 basketball tournament, that is an issue. Especially when less than 20% of the teams in 1A are private. And when those schools come from CB, DM, Algona, Clinton (all with bigger population bases, especially CB and DM, to find students athletes) it is a huge advantage. Please tell me how it is not an advantage. I am not being closed minded about anything here. Actually very open minded.

 

[CalmHawk]

I hear that they are not doing the 5A now. I thought that was a good path. The new 4A would have been a blast to watch play out. Teams like Roosevelt, Washington, Davenport North, Dub Senior, Waterloo West would have become powerhouses. Then if they would have rotated the assignments (top 4 4A teams go to 5A and bottom 4 5A go to 4A) every district cycle you would have had the chance to see a whole new crop of schools get some added success on the field which would have lead to rebuilding programs.

I agree with that. It would definitely been awesome to see.

 

[RoundMound1]

The same can be said for public schools. The same ones that are winning now that is.
Solon, West Lyon, Harlan, West Sioux, West Branch, the same schools that have established winning programs.
They would keep winning and have. Many of the schools listed won 1A or 2A championships, and are now doing the same thing at 2A and 3A.
Winning programs have: a winning culture, high expectations, access to resources, and stable programs.
To think it is as simple as a multiplier or free and reduced lunch is misguided.

Pine, you couldn't be more right!! Winning programs have exactly what you said; winning culture, high expectations, access to resources, and stable programs. Do you know what low SES communities have? Unstable homes (domestic and substance abuse, constant moving even homelessness, kids have to work or babysit to help parents working 2nd or 3rd shift), low expectations (graduation is good, but then again my parents didn't graduate and are fine), a losing culture (always had nothing, lower academic ability and performance, constant failures in life), little access to resources (parents unwilling to sign kids up for youth or take them to practices/games/camps/lifting, don't/can't pay for travel teams, no parents home to practice with kids when they are younger, hell they wear the same clothes to school every week).

I respect Coach Miller, Rozeboom, Bladt, Scheiwsow and Pedersen and they deserve every accomplishment they have earned. Now, would they go into schools like DM/Dav Metro, Burlington, Clinton, Denison, Postville, Columbus Junction, and Eagle Grove and magically change that culture and turn them into winners? It definitely is possible that they could go into those schools and improve them, but to the same level as their current schools? Nobody would say yes to that.

Moving these schools down a class isn't going to bring them state titles, but it gives their kids a better chance to be competitive which will could in turn help improve their participation and school culture. What's so wrong with that?

 

[PNation]

Pine, you couldn't be more right!! Winning programs have exactly what you said; winning culture, high expectations, access to resources, and stable programs. Do you know what low SES communities have? Unstable homes (domestic and substance abuse, constant moving even homelessness, kids have to work or babysit to help parents working 2nd or 3rd shift), low expectations (graduation is good, but then again my parents didn't graduate and are fine), a losing culture (always had nothing, lower academic ability and performance, constant failures in life), little access to resources (parents unwilling to sign kids up for youth or take them to practices/games/camps/lifting, don't/can't pay for travel teams, no parents home to practice with kids when they are younger, hell they wear the same clothes to school every week).

I respect Coach Miller, Rozeboom, Bladt, Scheiwsow and Pedersen and they deserve every accomplishment they have earned. Now, would they go into schools like DM/Dav Metro, Burlington, Clinton, Denison, Postville, Columbus Junction, and Eagle Grove and magically change that culture and turn them into winners? It definitely is possible that they could go into those schools and improve them, but to the same level as their current schools? Nobody would say yes to that.

Moving these schools down a class isn't going to bring them state titles, but it gives their kids a better chance to be competitive which will could in turn help improve their participation and school culture. What's so wrong with that?

I agree with this 100%, sometimes I think we look at this too much from the winning standpoint. Maybe it's more about participation. If you are a high school boy going to one of the schools mentioned, let's just say Burlington. If you are going to have to play Bettendorf, Pleasant Valley, and other 4A schools are you going to want to put yourself through playing those schools if you are sort of one the fence about going out? Now lets say you are playing Keokuk, Fort Madison, Washington, Fairfield and schools like that? I'm guessing that participation numbers will go up which I think is a positive.

As for you comment on the coaches I agree with you, all of those men are great coaches and I would guess that most would find success in most places. But about a year ago someone asked me who I thought was someone who was a Iowa High School coaching great that is never thought of (or something like that). I answered with Dave Holdiman, who lead Marshalltown to a state title game, but also had success in Mason City and Cherokee. If you look at those 3 jobs I don't think anyone would see them as desirable but he was able to turn each into a winner.

 

[RoundMound1]

Fantastic post PNation and I’m glad you brought up Coach Holdiman. Incredible coach and a better man!

 

[Break the Rock]

So here is my question.....what do you think they will announce next Friday? Not what you want to happen, not what you think should happen....what do you actually think we change?
My opinion is that they should should keep everything the same for the time being and use the coaches recommendation of expanding the play-off to 32 (except 4A).
Given all of the feedback I think they should announce that a change will be made next cycle in an attempt to "level the playing field" but that additional time, analytics and models need to be run over the next two years to get it right. My worry is that if they react to the feedback in this 3 week span they will through something together that will just cause even more complaints. This isn't something they were previously planning on doing and had spent time on....so don't over react and just do something for the sake of doing it.
My two cents.

 

[PNation]

No change what so ever, with an announcement that there will be major changes in 2 years with the use of a formula to find a schools "true enrollment" things like SES numbers, special education numbers, community size, and I think success will have a small factor as it is usually a factor in participation. I also think (or hope) that they will look at things on a sport by sport basis.

 

[CalmHawk]

I am not seeing much of a change regarding private vs public being done. I do expect some sort of change regarding districting and number of games being played prior to the playoff, if it is expanded to 32 teams. I would love for them to use that 1st week of playoffs as a match up for teams to play based on their district finishes. so seeds 5-8 will match up with the 5-8 in another district. This will give kids something to play for and something to look forward to when they are out of the playoffs with 5 weeks left to play. Participation will likely increase in this sense. use the RPI to determine who gets home field in those games.

 

[Notfromiowa]

I will wait and see you never know. The sticking point is 4A how do you make it Fair for the lower football schools to competed with the big schools. This is just a examples but go way way back in the 1991 look at how bad bondurant farrar was until 1998 or sometime before. Now look at them. They were in 2A back then. My friend gives the credit on turning the program around to a coach who only coach one year at bondurant farrar and it was Wes Stover. Then in after him was Jeremy Whalen the after he left Adam Busch came in for a couple of year's and now they have pfantz. Who done a hell of a job.

 

[Notfromiowa]

Just expand the RPI to the top 32 teams in 3A to 8 man. 4A I have no clue what to do. Just wait and see. I guess but their going to do what best for business!.

 

[MepoDawg#]

Just expand the RPI to the top 32 teams in 3A to 8 man. 4A I have no clue what to do. Just wait and see. I guess but their going to do what best for business!.

Expand the RPI or the playoffs? The RPI is figured for all teams.

 

[Reasoned]

My fear is, worse than doing nothing, these yahoo’s really turn this into a major CF...which will make the kids even less interested in playing football.

 

[Redraider906]

I hear that they are not doing the 5A now. I thought that was a good path. The new 4A would have been a blast to watch play out. Teams like Roosevelt, Washington, Davenport North, Dub Senior, Waterloo West would have become powerhouses. Then if they would have rotated the assignments (top 4 4A teams go to 5A and bottom 4 5A go to 4A) every district cycle you would have had the chance to see a whole new crop of schools get some added success on the field which would have lead to rebuilding programs.

I'm curious what your source for this is or what leads you to believe there will be no 5A. I personally havent hear one way or another but dont have a 1st hand 4A source (AD or principal) that would be involved in the discussions

 

[cidhawkeye]

When 5/8 of the smallest class in Iowa is private schools for the 2019 basketball tournament, that is an issue. Especially when less than 20% of the teams in 1A are private. And when those schools come from CB, DM, Algona, Clinton (all with bigger population bases, especially CB and DM, to find students athletes) it is a huge advantage. Please tell me how it is not an advantage. I am not being closed minded about anything here. Actually very open minded.

I have never claimed they don’t have advantages. No ESL, lower % of free and reduced lunch, traditionally more 2 parent homes, etc. there are however significant disadvantages as well. When they are located in metro areas they are usually the smaller school with many other choices in the area with better tax funded facilities, more administration to help with programs, more varied academic and arts programs which can take kids, more exposure for athletics and chances to be seen by colleges, and a significantly less expensive route for kids. I am a Regina supporter and I have seen a wide variety of situations, saw a football program with all of the same advantages be one school board vote from being shut down because they weren’t competitive, the right people get involved, attitudes change and a dynasty is formed. The star center at #1 West didn’t start his career there. One of my sons classes went from 64 kids to 48 between 8th and 9th grade, multiple reasons, better arts opportunities, tuition goes up at that stage(should change that), bigger sports opportunities etc. so it is a balancing act. Some schools will do well wherever they go with the right people involved. Some schools with those same advantages won’t succeed. I don’t know the right answer, I get tired of the ‘it just isn’t fair’ answer. People need to look themselves and say ‘how can I get better’ rather than ‘those guys are better, how can we get them down to where we are at’ if it is a priority, get better, work harder, work smarter. The comments from AD’s and Superintendents were embarrassing in my opinion are a pretty solid example of what is creating issues in our schools and society and I think posting those was a bad choice on the boy$ in Boone’s part.

 

[Notfromiowa]

A lot of this complaining from metro schools don't want to go down a class a leave the metro. If they want to be competitive they are going to have to leave the metro area. That's the main problem. They complained it's not fair but like the person said above work hard get kids out and you have a chance to complete but these people who complained are the ones not doing anything to help the football program alone.

I was wondering why doesn't the metro schools don't have a Jr high football programs or do they. That in skills you are going have to work hard to get your way you want for your program you look at the best 3A to A they have Jr high football program to developed the youth.

 

[CalmHawk]

I have never claimed they don’t have advantages. No ESL, lower % of free and reduced lunch, traditionally more 2 parent homes, etc. there are however significant disadvantages as well. When they are located in metro areas they are usually the smaller school with many other choices in the area with better tax funded facilities, more administration to help with programs, more varied academic and arts programs which can take kids, more exposure for athletics and chances to be seen by colleges, and a significantly less expensive route for kids. I am a Regina supporter and I have seen a wide variety of situations, saw a football program with all of the same advantages be one school board vote from being shut down because they weren’t competitive, the right people get involved, attitudes change and a dynasty is formed. The star center at #1 West didn’t start his career there. One of my sons classes went from 64 kids to 48 between 8th and 9th grade, multiple reasons, better arts opportunities, tuition goes up at that stage(should change that), bigger sports opportunities etc. so it is a balancing act. Some schools will do well wherever they go with the right people involved. Some schools with those same advantages won’t succeed. I don’t know the right answer, I get tired of the ‘it just isn’t fair’ answer. People need to look themselves and say ‘how can I get better’ rather than ‘those guys are better, how can we get them down to where we are at’ if it is a priority, get better, work harder, work smarter. The comments from AD’s and Superintendents were embarrassing in my opinion are a pretty solid example of what is creating issues in our schools and society and I think posting those was a bad choice on the boy$ in Boone’s part.

The whole thing about bigger schools surrounding us in a big city with better facilities I can get, but Regina is not competing against those schools. They are competing against schools with their enrollment size. That is the issue at hand. If you had a choice to stay in the city and maybe lose some kids here and there to the bigger schools or be located in a rural setting about 30 minutes away from a city, what would you chose? You will not get a kid, say going to IC West enrolling at your school to have a change of pace or senery if you are located more than a half hour away. You will have student leave though for other institutions (both private and public) if your rural school is lacking in talent for say 3-4 classes in a row. Private schools in big cities do not have that hurdle to climb and it is obvious when you look at who wins the championships at the 8 man and 1A level.

 

[CalmHawk]

A lot of this complaining from metro schools don't want to go down a class a leave the metro. If they want to be competitive they are going to have to leave the metro area. That's the main problem. They complained it's not fair but like the person said above work hard get kids out and you have a chance to complete but these people who complained are the ones not doing anything to help the football program alone.

I was wondering why doesn't the metro schools don't have a Jr high football programs or do they. That in skills you are going have to work hard to get your way you want for your program you look at the best 3A to A they have Jr high football program to developed the youth.

I think the big elephant in the room is a school like Dowling last year getting Gavin Williams to attend for his senior year and leave SE Polk. No fault to the kid at all as it was his choice, but it does not look good to an outsiders view on what Dowling is about at this point, and that is to get who they can to win a championship. I am sure the DM Metro is sick of it and they need to figure out how to fix it. One way to do this is to maybe do what Omaha Public Schools does. It is basically open enrollment within the city. Those kids can pick anywhere they want to go for HS within the city limits.

 

[woodsiding]

I think the big elephant in the room is a school like Dowling last year getting Gavin Williams to attend for his senior year and leave SE Polk. No fault to the kid at all as it was his choice, but it does not look good to an outsiders view on what Dowling is about at this point, and that is to get who they can to win a championship. I am sure the DM Metro is sick of it and they need to figure out how to fix it. One way to do this is to maybe do what Omaha Public Schools does. It is basically open enrollment within the city. Those kids can pick anywhere they want to go for HS within the city limits.

What really doesn't look good is the fact that he is back at SEP right now and will graduate from SEP.

 

[woodsiding]

I'm curious what your source for this is or what leads you to believe there will be no 5A. I personally havent hear one way or another but dont have a 1st hand 4A source (AD or principal) that would be involved in the discussions

It was no longer one of the proposals. They are now looking at doing away with districts and going to pods. (basically the same thing). Either 40 or 48 if I remember right. Tiered system, with 40 for example, top 10 teams get a pod, 2nd tier and 2 bottom tier teams in each pod. Non-pod games the state schedules 3 games for each team from the same tier across the state, then you get 3 games to set up as usual. 10 pod winners and the remaining spots will be off an RPI.

 

[RoundMound1]

It was no longer one of the proposals. They are now looking at doing away with districts and going to pods. (basically the same thing). Either 40 or 48 if I remember right. Tiered system, with 40 for example, top 10 teams get a pod, 2nd tier and 2 bottom tier teams in each pod. Non-pod games the state schedules 3 games for each team from the same tier across the state, then you get 3 games to set up as usual. 10 pod winners and the remaining spots will be off an RPI.

Mind sourcing this info (not a name)? Would this just be for 4A? Are they basing tiers off historical performance?

 

[areukiddingme]

It was no longer one of the proposals. They are now looking at doing away with districts and going to pods. (basically the same thing). Either 40 or 48 if I remember right. Tiered system, with 40 for example, top 10 teams get a pod, 2nd tier and 2 bottom tier teams in each pod. Non-pod games the state schedules 3 games for each team from the same tier across the state, then you get 3 games to set up as usual. 10 pod winners and the remaining spots will be off an RPI.

the latest 2 proposals are between 42 teams and 40 teams for 4A using the pods previously mentioned the 5A conversation has been killed from what I have heard

 

[makelovenotwar]

the latest 2 proposals are between 42 teams and 40 teams for 4A using the pods previously mentioned the 5A conversation has been killed from what I have heard

If true, I really don't see how this helps much at all.

 

[areukiddingme]

If true, I really don't see how this helps much at all.

the only "help" is the opponents are chosen based on how teams faired in recent history I believe. So a tier 3 team would play a couple teir 1s, but more tier 2/3 teams not much different than districts really. but maybe give a few more competitive games instead of so many blowouts, but I would guess more travel as sioux city would be in tier 3 in a couple cases and some eastern Iowa schools in same boat.

 

[Notfromiowa]

That's what South Dakota does and I believe Kentucky maybe a couple others states does it to with tiers and they move them around every year.

 

[hawxs22]

What really doesn't look good is the fact that he is back at SEP right now and will graduate from SEP.

Are you kidding me?!

 

[Break the Rock]

Beyond going to "Pods" are we hearing they will go to 32 play off teams?

 

[hawxs22]

The only ones going to pods would be 4A...

 

[Notfromiowa]

I think the big elephant in the room is a school like Dowling last year getting Gavin Williams to attend for his senior year and leave SE Polk. No fault to the kid at all as it was his choice, but it does not look good to an outsiders view on what Dowling is about at this point, and that is to get who they can to win a championship. I am sure the DM Metro is sick of it and they need to figure out how to fix it. One way to do this is to maybe do what Omaha Public Schools does. It is basically open enrollment within the city. Those kids can pick anywhere they want to go for HS within the city limits.

SEP was the only schools that lost a kids to Dowling in that area. Bondurant farrar did to and it was that quarterback also a senior. Gerke left to go their he was just most use for punting and undercenter their.