Interesting Quess over in 3A Forum

[makelovenotwar]

IGo42 wrote:

5A Superclass- made up of (16) 4A teams according to BEDS, power rankings, socioeconomics, records from previous 5 years.
4A- next 32 teams
3A- next 54
2A- next 54
1A- next 54
A- (approx 60 teams) anyone left playing 11-man
8-man- anyone under 120 BEDS #


* NOTE: This is my guess, not necessarily what is happening
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Actually looks pretty reasonable. Thoughts?

 

[areukiddingme]

Makes too much sense , so it really has no chance of ever getting approved

 

[PNation]

Couple of things:

1. The IHSAA released the results of their survey they asked Superintendents, Principals and ADs to take, and there are some interesting results.
2. I like the idea, but actually choosing the top 16 is kind of hard, these are the teams that I see for sure.

Dowling
Valley
Waukee
Johnston
Southeast Polk
Centennial
Ankeny
Cedar Falls
Bettendorf

After that I think there are schools that could argue that they shouldn't be in the top class, like Urbandale, they are a suburb school but haven't necessarily been dominate in any way. CR Kennedy has been very good the last few years, but they have a high level of poverty at the same time. What about teams like Xavier, Western Dubuque, Solon and Pella. They have all been really good and are very good socioeconomically but aren't close in enrollment to a school like Valley or Waukee.

3. Do you do this for other classes, or just the top one?

I am all for a system that levels the playing field a bit, however I think you have to have a consistent formula that is relatively easy to understand. I also think that you have to make sure that it isn't unfair for schools with current advantages, I think the idea is to bring them back closer to the pack but not all of the way, it is the job of the other schools to catch up to them.

 

[Zeek86]

From what I am hearing.....that there will not be a 5A this go around.

 

[hawxs22]

What do you do for schools like Perry, Saydel, Denison, Clarke, Clinton, and others that have struggled due to low socioeconomics for them to be competitive? I'm not sure moving them down a class would even automatically allow them able to compete with teams around them that are a lower class...

Thoughts or insight?

 

[Break the Rock]

What do you do for schools like Perry, Saydel, Denison, Clarke, Clinton, and others that have struggled due to low socioeconomics for them to be competitive? I'm not sure moving them down a class would even automatically allow them able to compete with teams around them that are a lower class...

Thoughts or insight?

I think the notion of a 5A class is a good idea....followed by laundry list of questions that would cause more complaining than the current system...at this point.
I do however think it is a good idea to run some models and continue to evaluate what it would look like.
The issue is simply that its hard predict how teams with a lower enrollment will perform in upcoming years. Past performance does not always predict future performance. I also think that if you ever go to a 5A class you have to use the same basis for selection through all classes. If not you will have a school like Xavier in 3A, with many of the current top 3A going to 4A - Western Dubuque, Lewis Centeral, North Scott. You also would move up a school like Clinton to 4A even though they currently struggle in 3A. You cannot just use the model for 5A.
It's for those reasons I think it is a little late in the game to completely turn Iowa classifications upside-down. At this point I think they should adopt the coaches recommendation to expand play-offs to 32 and "punt" for the next 2 years.

 

[PNation]

I think that if you made a formula for all schools then you wouldn't necessarily be moving any down or up you would just be adjusting the enrollment of the school. Then from their classifying them off of that enrollment. For example lets take Des Moines North, they have an enrollment of 1095, which makes them the 24th biggest high school in the state this year. I'm guessing that if you figure in socioeconomic factors, participation, success, and other things, I guessing that their enrollment would be less then half of that.

My question is if they are going to do it on a sport by sport basis, because using DSM North they have been far more competitive in Basketball then they have been in other sports.

 

[areukiddingme]

I dont think you can treat football the same as other sports. Football requires more players and more contributors than a sport such as Basketball where if you have a couple stars that can take you a long way.

 

[Reasoned]

Not sure where to even start on this...but I will anyway.

1) Regarding a proposed new 5A class, why? Because there are less than a dozen consistently competitive schools in the current 4A bracket? If the desired number of teams is 16 and you for instance take the short list of nine cited above:
Dowling
Valley
Waukee
Johnston
Southeast Polk
Centennial
Ankeny
Cedar Falls
Bettendorf
one thing immediately sticks out, other than CF & Bett it’s all DM metro , throw in Urbandale now you’re at 8 DM metro & 2 East side. So the other 6 would all need to come from East side (assuming you’re after 2 eight team districts or some such thing), also means the entire “west coast” is out...or down to be exact. Possibilities PV, Dub (2), LM, CRK, Prairie, then you have other CR schools and both IC schools (plus Liberty is improving)...you get my point. I just don’t see the wisdom in creating a concentrated 5A division. Travel/cost for the non DM metro would be significant.

 

[KidSilverhair]

IGo42 wrote:

5A Superclass- made up of (16) 4A teams according to BEDS, power rankings, socioeconomics, records from previous 5 years.
4A- next 32 teams
3A- next 54
2A- next 54
1A- next 54
A- (approx 60 teams) anyone left playing 11-man
8-man- anyone under 120 BEDS #


* NOTE: This is my guess, not necessarily what is happening
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Actually looks pretty reasonable. Thoughts?

Not that I know anything, but ... why 54? That’s 6 districts of 9 or 9 districts of 6, neither of which seems very efficient. Why not 56 for a standard class size? Then you have 8 districts of 7 teams each, which allows 3 non-district games per year (assuming we keep a 9-game season). You could easily say the top 2 in each district make the playoffs, if you didn’t like how the RPI was working (or if you expand to 32 playoff teams, take the top 2 per district and fill the rest of the field with RPI, I dunno).

54 just seems wonky to me.

 

[Reasoned]

2) Not having done any research on this but the only multiplyer adjustments I’ve seen used elsewhere is for instance IL, to address private school perceived advantage. You would take the BEDS number x1.65 to give your new enrollment classification. May work for Xavier or Assumption but does nothing to Dowling. And trying to address the “socioeconomic” issue???? Can’t even imagine how that works, other states doing this, examples??

 

[Numba9]

Only 16 teams in 5A....why? If they can't have at least 32, then don't have it. How about just get better or deal with getting beat...that's life.

 

[FootballFan1009]

https://www.iahsaa.org/resources/general/

Look at the classification survey report- This is a new tab (I haven't noticed it until today). Appears the state is looking at making some major adjustments with the socioeconomic situation.

Just found it interesting

 

[FootballFan1009]

Not saying things classification need to change or that it will ever be "fair", but seeing some responses from some school districts blows my mind about how winning is their only worry. Can't even respond to a survey with honest answers.......


Principal Urban Southeast Johnson 163 9% Non-Public School No
Athletic Director/Activities Director Urban Southeast Johnson 163 8% Non-Public School No

Also pretty telling that Iowa City Regina's admin (A.D. and Principal) feel there is not a competitive equity issue in the athletics. 8-9% free and reduced qualifiers in their 163 freshman to juniors enrollment (14 total kids)..... I wonder what the lowest public school with those numbers are......

So here is Tri-Centers: (160 freshman to juniors- similar numbers)
Superintendent/President Rural Southwest Pottawatamie 160 42% Public School Yes

42% free and reduced qualifiers for 67 of its population........

Regina admin are obviously oblivious of the equity in sports classification.

 

[IGo42]

Not that I know anything, but ... why 54? That’s 6 districts of 9 or 9 districts of 6, neither of which seems very efficient. Why not 56 for a standard class size? Then you have 8 districts of 7 teams each, which allows 3 non-district games per year (assuming we keep a 9-game season). You could easily say the top 2 in each district make the playoffs, if you didn’t like how the RPI was working (or if you expand to 32 playoff teams, take the top 2 per district and fill the rest of the field with RPI, I dunno).

54 just seems wonky to me.

I used 54 because that was the numbers of schools in 3A, 2A, and 1A the last cycle so I stuck with those number. Nothing less, nothing more. 56 would also make sense.

9 Districts of 6 teams equals five district games and 3 or 4 non-district games, depending on whether or not we go to 8 regular season games or stay with 9.

The 9 district champs get automatic bids and the other 7 or 23 are determined by RPI (depending on if they stay with 16 teams or expand to 32).

 

[MepoDawg#]

Is there really a need for seven classes of football in Iowa? If so, there is absolutely no reason to expand the playoffs. If 5A was 16 teams with all making the playoffs and the remaining six classes at 32 teams in the playoffs, then 208 teams make the playoffs.

Going by Quik Stats there were 327 teams last year, meaning 63.6% of teams would have made the playoffs. If you’re going to do that then might as well expand it so all make the playoffs.

Stick to six classes, 16 teams in playoffs, even out districts in most classes so it’s eight districts with champs in playoffs with next 8 rpi or district runner-up. If using RPI then fix it so your wins count more than opponents wins and so on.

 

[wolverine55]

The more I think about a class 5A, the more I don't like it honestly. Unless some of it is open to the school's choice to be in it or not if factors other than enrollment are going to be taken into account. While a division of the top 16 teams sounds fine and dandy, that's not going to be a whole lot of fun for the teams that would rank say 13-16th in that division.

 

[Reasoned]

Again let’s be honest, the socioeconomic red herring is a PC way of addressing the manifestation caused by family dysfunction and ineffective school administrators. By and large kids from poorer districts are just as capable of being athletically competitive as kids from affluent districts. There’s more at work than just financial considerations why the DM & Dav metro schools have competitive challenges with their “suburban” counterparts. That being said, this season Davenport North defeated a much more affluent (and larger enrollment) PV team...so it is possible.

 

[PNation]

Just to put things in perspective for those that think some of these classes are too small. In South Dakota there are 58 11 man football teams and they have 4 classes, they have 10,8, 15 and 25 teams. They have 68 9 man teams with 3 classes of 22, 23 and 23. Personally I think that these are too small, but there are states that have classes this small, actually smaller.

 

[IGo42]

If they created a Class 5A with 16 schools, they wouldn't have to play all district football games. They could have 4 districts of 4, so they'd have 3 district games and 6 non district games. This would alleviate the issue of travel for many of their games. They could still play 4A teams in their area, but when it came to playoffs they'd be in a different class.

As for the statement that it wouldn't be much fun being the teams finishing #13-16 in class 5A, that's really no different than finishing 45th-54th in any other class. I bet even the bottom teams in the 5A class would still have a decent record because they'd still be playing the 4A competition in 6/9 non-district games.

 

[Hwkfn1]

https://www.iahsaa.org/resources/general/

Look at the classification survey report- This is a new tab (I haven't noticed it until today). Appears the state is looking at making some major adjustments with the socioeconomic situation.

Just found it interesting

I can't believe the state has the comments public.

 

[KidSilverhair]

I used 54 because that was the numbers of schools in 3A, 2A, and 1A the last cycle so I stuck with those number. Nothing less, nothing more. 56 would also make sense.

9 Districts of 6 teams equals five district games and 3 or 4 non-district games, depending on whether or not we go to 8 regular season games or stay with 9.

The 9 district champs get automatic bids and the other 7 or 23 are determined by RPI (depending on if they stay with 16 teams or expand to 32).

Oh, no worries, I wasn’t picking on you. I get that the state went with 54 per class this last cycle, although I thought it was strange that they did that.

I don’t really like the idea of having almost as many non-district games as district games, but I suppose if “every game matters” with RPI it’s not really that big of a deal.

I just like even numbers of districts, and 8 districts per class just *sounds* right.

 

[Reasoned]

I can't believe the state has the comments public.

Yeah that’s fascinating to read. One thing’s for sure, if they actually read these and respond to the most cited concerns, private schools are in for a change.

 

[KidSilverhair]

In the IHSAA data I see Cedar Falls is claiming Catholic schools need to follow the same rules as everyone else. Which rules, exactly, do they think parochial schools aren’t following?

it’s hard to argue against the fact that private schools have advantages; it’s different saying they’re skirting the rules somehow.

 

[Pinehawk]

Spoiler alert: make it 5 classes, 6 classes, whatever.
Won’t change anything. Still going to see the same complaints from the same people.
The same well established programs will rise to the top.

 

[cidhawkeye]

For some highly educated individuals there were some very poorly thought out comments. Should be an interesting process to watch.

 

[IGo42]

For some highly educated individuals there were some very poorly thought out comments. Should be an interesting process to watch.

I thought the same thing cidhawkeye. The fact that the IAHSAA publicized that survey makes me believe that they ARE going to create a multiplier this cycle. If they don't then they are going to look like fools!

 

[Reasoned]

I thought the same thing cidhawkeye. The fact that the IAHSAA publicized that survey makes me believe that they ARE going to create a multiplier this cycle. If they don't then they are going to look like fools!

Oh yeah, that’ll really address the Dowling dominance, they move up to a fictional 5A?

 

[IGo42]

Oh yeah, that’ll really address the Dowling dominance, they move up to a fictional 5A?

Well they'd win 10A if we had it, fact is if there's another class that'll give another larger school a chance at a title.

 

[RoundMound1]

I was also surprised the comments were made public. The associations (IGHSAU published them too) must not care about autonomy because it's so easy to connect the dots and figure out each school. They could've easily taken the data and created a results piece where they tallied up the results of each question. Strange

The number of comments about private schools was definitely shocking. Obviously coaches, parents, and fans complain about private schools a lot, but I was surprised to see so many administrators go that route. Through all the comments, I noticed three main trends in the grievances.

1. Public schools with decent to good football programs were more likely to complain about private schools

2. 3A schools complained about the huge disparity in the size of schools in 3A and Xavier

3. Schools with high free and reduced numbers obviously complained about their disadvantages, many bringing up wealthy suburban/bedroom schools.

 

[CalmHawk]

Again let’s be honest, the socioeconomic red herring is a PC way of addressing the manifestation caused by family dysfunction and ineffective school administrators. By and large kids from poorer districts are just as capable of being athletically competitive as kids from affluent districts. There’s more at work than just financial considerations why the DM & Dav metro schools have competitive challenges with their “suburban” counterparts. That being said, this season Davenport North defeated a much more affluent (and larger enrollment) PV team...so it is possible.

I am not being a jerk here, but can you name a school that has been competitive with the low ses numbers as you state? I get what you are saying, but doing the AAU, travel team, camps is not in the cards for those kids. getting to school for extra practices because they do not have a ride or car is also an issue.

 

[CalmHawk]

I was also surprised the comments were made public. The associations (IGHSAU published them too) must not care about autonomy because it's so easy to connect the dots and figure out each school. They could've easily taken the data and created a results piece where they tallied up the results of each question. Strange

The number of comments about private schools was definitely shocking. Obviously coaches, parents, and fans complain about private schools a lot, but I was surprised to see so many administrators go that route. Through all the comments, I noticed three main trends in the grievances.

1. Public schools with decent to good football programs were more likely to complain about private schools

2. 3A schools complained about the huge disparity in the size of schools in 3A and Xavier

3. Schools with high free and reduced numbers obviously complained about their disadvantages, many bringing up wealthy suburban/bedroom schools.

Private schools dominate the 8 man and IA basketball playoffs every year. There are advantages when you can pick who you want to enroll from areas where there are huge towns and cities to field those type of teams. It is not a secret to anyone and is frustrating because those schools do not have to work on a group of kids at say, 3rd grade and get them super competitive. Those schools just can wait it out and get kids to attend middle and high school and all of a sudden they are better. The advantage is huge. They also have a lot of sustained success whereas smaller rural schools go through competitive cycles. A multiplier only makes sense when you look at surrounding states.

 

[Pinehawk]

Private schools dominate the 8 man and IA basketball playoffs every year. There are advantages when you can pick who you want to enroll from areas where there are huge towns and cities to field those type of teams. It is not a secret to anyone and is frustrating because those schools do not have to work on a group of kids at say, 3rd grade and get them super competitive. Those schools just can wait it out and get kids to attend middle and high school and all of a sudden they are better. The advantage is huge. They also have a lot of sustained success whereas smaller rural schools go through competitive cycles. A multiplier only makes sense when you look at surrounding states.

Well, you are completely wrong of course. Private schools do not 'pick' who they want to enroll. They would be happy to take any and everyone. Families pick where they want to live and go to school.
Of course private schools work with groups of kids in 3rd grade to get them 'super competitive'. All of the successful schools (public and private) do that. Success isn't going to happen by itself. You cannot wait for them to 'all of a sudden get better'.
Private schools also go through competitive cycles, but due to the high expectations and high commitment levels, the cycles aren't as deep.

 

[CalmHawk]

Well, you are completely wrong of course. Private schools do not 'pick' who they want to enroll. They would be happy to take any and everyone. Families pick where they want to live and go to school.
Of course private schools work with groups of kids in 3rd grade to get them 'super competitive'. All of the successful schools (public and private) do that. Success isn't going to happen by itself. You cannot wait for them to 'all of a sudden get better'.
Private schools also go through competitive cycles, but due to the high expectations and high commitment levels, the cycles aren't as deep.

Yes private schools pick who they want to go there. which is why there is an enrollment process. Every kid going to a private school has to go through that. They can choose to not have kids attend or move on from them. It happens everywhere. Not sure why that is hard for private schools to accept that perception. And I am aware that private schools have kids playing together young, but they also have an easier time getting that one or two extra kids to put them over the edge each and every year, especially at programs within big city or suburban districts. To make things more competitive, that needs to be addressed with a multiplier. All I suggest is a level playing field. Now, public schools are starting to work the open enrollment system also, i get that, but that is a different issue. If you look in 8 man football and A football at the success level of Don Bosco and put the Illinois 1.65 multiplier to their BEDs, they go up to class A. Same can be said for a lot of other schools in 1A basketball. Smaller schools are getting sick of the Private schools dominating the championships at their levels. (Grandview in BB, Nueman in Baseball, Bosco in football). They are at a clear advantage in those places.

 

[Pinehawk]

You don't know what you are talking about. Kids are not weeded out during an 'enrollment process'. I can 100% guarantee you that. They would love to have every kid and family that wants to be a part of the school.
Public schools have just as big of an advantage with open enrollment, probably bigger with no tuition hurdle to overcome.

Iowa City Regina lost Even Brauns to West High two years ago. Imagine how good they'd be with him this season.
Newell Fonda lost Coppock to West Sioux, ranked #1 in 2A basketball now. Henderson leaves Clinton for Camanche.
2 out of the last 3 West Branch QB's transferred in.

We're beyond a 'private school' multiplier. Public school open enrollment and transfers affect more schools with the overall movement of kids.

Move Bosco up. Move Regina up. Move Xavier up. They will still win and the complaints will just come from a different class.
Admit it, you and many others just won't be happy until YOUR team wins, or the handful of teams you dislike lose.

 

[Reasoned]

I am not being a jerk here, but can you name a school that has been competitive with the low ses numbers as you state? I get what you are saying, but doing the AAU, travel team, camps is not in the cards for those kids. getting to school for extra practices because they do not have a ride or car is also an issue.

Well if you want to get right at the meat of it, you’ll probably find the same schools with SE issues not only have problems with competitive athletics but more importantly academics.

 

[hawxs22]

Well if you want to get right at the meat of it, you’ll probably find the same schools with SE issues not only have problems with competitive athletics but more importantly academics.

I would be shocked if there ever was a school with a low SES that ever was competitive year in and year out. Now they may have a decent season here and there but not consistent.

 

[dtk913]

You don't know what you are talking about. Kids are not weeded out during an 'enrollment process'. I can 100% guarantee you that. They would love to have every kid and family that wants to be a part of the school.
Public schools have just as big of an advantage with open enrollment, probably bigger with no tuition hurdle to overcome.

Iowa City Regina lost Even Brauns to West High two years ago. Imagine how good they'd be with him this season.
Newell Fonda lost Coppock to West Sioux, ranked #1 in 2A basketball now. Henderson leaves Clinton for Camanche.
2 out of the last 3 West Branch QB's transferred in.

We're beyond a 'private school' multiplier. Public school open enrollment and transfers affect more schools with the overall movement of kids.

Move Bosco up. Move Regina up. Move Xavier up. They will still win and the complaints will just come from a different class.
Admit it, you and many others just won't be happy until YOUR team wins, or the handful of teams you dislike lose.

I agree with you that if you moved Xavier, Regina, Bosco, Pella Chrisitian and many other private schools up they would continue to have success at the highest level. So my question to you is why? The large majority of public schools would not have the same success they enjoy now if they were moved up a class above where they were supposed to be playing. You continue to say there is no multiplier needed, but then you also say you could move them up and they would still dominate. The same can't be said for public schools. How do you explain that?

 

[Pinehawk]

I agree with you that if you moved Xavier, Regina, Bosco, Pella Chrisitian and many other private schools up they would continue to have success at the highest level. So my question to you is why? The large majority of public schools would not have the same success they enjoy now if they were moved up a class above where they were supposed to be playing. You continue to say there is no multiplier needed, but then you also say you could move them up and they would still dominate. The same can't be said for public schools. How do you explain that?

The same can be said for public schools. The same ones that are winning now that is.
Solon, West Lyon, Harlan, West Sioux, West Branch, the same schools that have established winning programs.
They would keep winning and have. Many of the schools listed won 1A or 2A championships, and are now doing the same thing at 2A and 3A.
Winning programs have: a winning culture, high expectations, access to resources, and stable programs.
To think it is as simple as a multiplier or free and reduced lunch is misguided.

 

[CalmHawk]

You don't know what you are talking about. Kids are not weeded out during an 'enrollment process'. I can 100% guarantee you that. They would love to have every kid and family that wants to be a part of the school.
Public schools have just as big of an advantage with open enrollment, probably bigger with no tuition hurdle to overcome.

Iowa City Regina lost Even Brauns to West High two years ago. Imagine how good they'd be with him this season.
Newell Fonda lost Coppock to West Sioux, ranked #1 in 2A basketball now. Henderson leaves Clinton for Camanche.
2 out of the last 3 West Branch QB's transferred in.

We're beyond a 'private school' multiplier. Public school open enrollment and transfers affect more schools with the overall movement of kids.

Move Bosco up. Move Regina up. Move Xavier up. They will still win and the complaints will just come from a different class.
Admit it, you and many others just won't be happy until YOUR team wins, or the handful of teams you dislike lose.

No they are not weeded out, but they do get to accept anyone they want and from whatever a distance it may be, then also eliminate the low income families that might want to attend but do not have the assets to do so. Public schools cannot do that. In 1A basketball last year 6 out of 8 teams at state were private. Look at the percentages of private to public in 1A basketball and tell me how these private schools from larger population bases are not at an advantage.