I agree ghost. Sometimes replaying and replaying a play that has been made and called, especially at the high school level where plays cannot be reviewed or reversed. As they say, he may have been down, but if the refs don't call it that way then he was not down. No different with penalties, someone may have held, may not have, if the ref does or does not call it, that is how the play is played out. Props to Washington and Solon for, in my opinion, properly displaying what good hard-nosed 3A football is about.
******GAME TALK: Solon vs. Washington******
- Thread starter LukeFeddersen
- Start date
Some penalties are somewhat subjective like holding and one play doesn't decide a game but the runner was down, not really a "may" to it. The only people who feel as bad as the players are the officials who missed the call.
While statements #s 2 & 3 are true, statement #1 is not true at all, at least not in this case. The play in question almost certainly decided the game. Solon was up 9-7 at the time; if the call had gone the other way (I'm still not convinced that the wrong call was made), Solon, with the good field position, could have scored again themselves. Or at very least run a bunch of time off the clock, punted deep into Washington territory and made it very difficult for them to come back.
Iowa high school needs to change the fumble rule on 4th downs like college. If the player fumbles and the ball bounces forward and their own team recovers, the ball needs to move back to the spot of the fumble. There's nothing stopping kids who are stopped short, to intentionally fumble the ball forward and have a teammate jump on the ball for a 1st down or td. Not saying that's what the kid did last night, but that rule needs to be changed ASAP.
The officials did the cardinal sin - played a hand in the outcome of the game and if that was their "best" then Boone needs some serious revamping. Those saying "solon should have scored TD's", how about the officials should have made the correct call? The game is over and it cannot be changed, best of luck to Washington vs Heelan.
There is definitely going to be some heat and anger from the team\fans that were on the wrong side of the "coin flip", put yourself in their shoes - if that is your school, your team that just had that happen to them - pretty positive that you would have the same reaction and disgust towards the officials. It wasn't just one guy making the bad call, it was all of the officiating crew getting together and making it - which just baffles me (not one of them saw his knee down 3yds shy of the 1st down marker and then the ball come out, really?).
As far as them not officiating again, if I am them I am going to think long and hard about it as the decision they made played a role in one team winning and one team losing (especially with it being a semi-final game).
There is definitely going to be some heat and anger from the team\fans that were on the wrong side of the "coin flip", put yourself in their shoes - if that is your school, your team that just had that happen to them - pretty positive that you would have the same reaction and disgust towards the officials. It wasn't just one guy making the bad call, it was all of the officiating crew getting together and making it - which just baffles me (not one of them saw his knee down 3yds shy of the 1st down marker and then the ball come out, really?).
As far as them not officiating again, if I am them I am going to think long and hard about it as the decision they made played a role in one team winning and one team losing (especially with it being a semi-final game).
I don't agree with you. Refs make mistakes, but they didn't decide the outcome of that game. The players & coaches did. Solon had the ball how many times after that TD to score? Washington's defense held solon out of the end zone and that was the difference. That one play did not decide the outcome of a great game. Solon had the ball several times in Washington territory and did not punch one in. Credit to Wash's defense for keeping a high powered solon offense out of the end zone.
Penalties not called like holding. I was at a game this year when one particular player should have had 22 holding penalty calls against him, yes 22. The official missed every call, he didn't flag one. In 3 of the 22 holding calls, the particular player tackled the defensive lineman. Yes, he tackled him, one tackle was a double leg takedown, the other two were shoulder pad tackles. I've watch the video on hudl five times and those tackles and holding plays, over and over four to five times each. How in the hell could an official miss those calls? In most of the holding missed calls, the official was within ten feet or less. Perhaps he was too close?
In so many other bad calls this year, an official who was right there by the play to make a penalty call and didn't, an official on the far side of the field, who could not see the front side of both players, would throw the yellow hanky for a pass interference - when it clearly showed both were going for the ball, both touched the ball, and one or the other offense or defense fell down after the ball hit the turf - then this official on the far side of the field throws the yellow hanky for pass interence. Seriously?
I was at an early game this year in August, where the ref (the guy in the white cap) was trying to decide if the ball was advanced enough for a first down. He finally called time out after 5 or 6 seconds. He looked across to the far side of the field where the chains were. - Ok, what would you do or expect to see the ref do? The normal procedure is for the ref to signal for the chains to come to the ball to measure, right?
Oh contrare camel breath, he did the unthinkable (I have never EVER seen this done before), he picked up the ball and walked across to the far side of the field where the chains were. He put the ball down. He stepped back a few feet to observe if the ball was ahead of the chains. He declared that it was by 3-4 inches and turned to the press box and signaled - first down.
I won't say the game or the date or the officating crew, but this guy and his crew are THE WORST CREW that I've seen over the past several years. They continually miss more calls than any other crew I've seen.
Anyhow, the current group of officials "may do it for the love of the game" but they need to be more professional in their calls and not cave to sideline pressure from the home coach (or the visiting coach).
I agree, I wouldn't want to be an official, but something needs to be done to get better official calling made. Perhaps it's time for instant replay, where and when possible - perhaps not. I'd suspect most coaches would be against it. Yet - - - these same coaches are the first to scream and rant when "they get screwed over" by a bad call.
So, coaches, how do you fix this bad official call problem? Get it done - or live with what ya got.
In so many other bad calls this year, an official who was right there by the play to make a penalty call and didn't, an official on the far side of the field, who could not see the front side of both players, would throw the yellow hanky for a pass interference - when it clearly showed both were going for the ball, both touched the ball, and one or the other offense or defense fell down after the ball hit the turf - then this official on the far side of the field throws the yellow hanky for pass interence. Seriously?
I was at an early game this year in August, where the ref (the guy in the white cap) was trying to decide if the ball was advanced enough for a first down. He finally called time out after 5 or 6 seconds. He looked across to the far side of the field where the chains were. - Ok, what would you do or expect to see the ref do? The normal procedure is for the ref to signal for the chains to come to the ball to measure, right?
Oh contrare camel breath, he did the unthinkable (I have never EVER seen this done before), he picked up the ball and walked across to the far side of the field where the chains were. He put the ball down. He stepped back a few feet to observe if the ball was ahead of the chains. He declared that it was by 3-4 inches and turned to the press box and signaled - first down.
I won't say the game or the date or the officating crew, but this guy and his crew are THE WORST CREW that I've seen over the past several years. They continually miss more calls than any other crew I've seen.
Anyhow, the current group of officials "may do it for the love of the game" but they need to be more professional in their calls and not cave to sideline pressure from the home coach (or the visiting coach).
I agree, I wouldn't want to be an official, but something needs to be done to get better official calling made. Perhaps it's time for instant replay, where and when possible - perhaps not. I'd suspect most coaches would be against it. Yet - - - these same coaches are the first to scream and rant when "they get screwed over" by a bad call.
So, coaches, how do you fix this bad official call problem? Get it done - or live with what ya got.
The call did affect the outcome of the game. Solon would have taken over on downs near the 50 yd line with 5:40 to go. They would have run off 2 minutes of time even if they wouldn't have gotten a first down. And, then they likely would have pinned Washington deep as they had all second half and contained them.
I don't think the refs should quit or be suspended, it's a very tough job. But, I can't believe the entire crew missed that call.
And, if teams are allowed to fumble forward and recover the ball, that needs to be changed this off season for certain.
The game is over, but that is a tough, tough way to lose on such a big blown call.
I don't think the refs should quit or be suspended, it's a very tough job. But, I can't believe the entire crew missed that call.
And, if teams are allowed to fumble forward and recover the ball, that needs to be changed this off season for certain.
The game is over, but that is a tough, tough way to lose on such a big blown call.
I fine it hard to believe that nobody wants to give Washington credit and that's fine.
Did anybody see the Washington kid just out hustle everybody on that field to recover that fumble that ball went by 2 or 3 Solon kids and Knupp just wanted worse.
I will give Washington all the credit in the world.They're a nice group of home grown young men that came together at the right time of the year.
The other thing we will never no is if Solon doesn't have a outstanding player fall into there lap a year ago are they even still playing.
I get it Solon hates to lose and that's what makes them so good every year but come on Washington match ya last night and got the win.
This post was edited on 11/15 9:51 AM by bigfridaynite
Did anybody see the Washington kid just out hustle everybody on that field to recover that fumble that ball went by 2 or 3 Solon kids and Knupp just wanted worse.
I will give Washington all the credit in the world.They're a nice group of home grown young men that came together at the right time of the year.
The other thing we will never no is if Solon doesn't have a outstanding player fall into there lap a year ago are they even still playing.
I get it Solon hates to lose and that's what makes them so good every year but come on Washington match ya last night and got the win.
This post was edited on 11/15 9:51 AM by bigfridaynite
BF - look at the first thing Shadow said and in my post eariler - both said "congrats to wash" "Wash won" good luck vs Heelan.
It is hard for you to understand the outcome of this when it wasn't your team getting the short end of the stick. Did you see the game BF? Did you see the players knee touch down 3yds short of the to gain line? Did you see that or are you so against admitting that it happened just because it was Solon?
Your jab at Black is mute and inmature.
It is hard for you to understand the outcome of this when it wasn't your team getting the short end of the stick. Did you see the game BF? Did you see the players knee touch down 3yds short of the to gain line? Did you see that or are you so against admitting that it happened just because it was Solon?
Your jab at Black is mute and inmature.
Yes I seen the game and if you read my other posts I said it was a terrible call no doubt.But there is no way you or anybody else can say that Solon would of won if they called him down,If you can forecast that why play the game.
*Scratching head*....Okay let's try this. Did those Solon players touch the fumble first before anyone from Washington did?
That's my point, the offiicials blew a call that would have given Solon the ball at mid-field and a chance to seal it. We will never know due to the officials ineptness on a crucial play in a Semi-Final game. If those are the "best" offiicials that Iowa has to offer, then we have some serious issues with the system.
Again - if it's your team that was on the short end, would you be saying what you say now? I highly doubt it.
Yes I would of been piss too.
But at the end of the day we never will know.
Has far has the jab at Jacob I was just adding to all the what "IF".
But at the end of the day we never will know.
Has far has the jab at Jacob I was just adding to all the what "IF".
You and the officials!
It appeared that they all got there at about the same time. So let me guess your follow-up will be "Solon should have got the ball".
This post was edited on 11/15 10:48 AM by OtherWiseGinger
They play shouldn't have even been a fumble, he was clearly down. Every official missed that, so none of them were watching the ball closely.
The ball was fumbled forward and a Washington and Solon player appeared to get to the ball close to the same time. But, the camera angle showed the players backs on the far sideline.
BUT, it also appeared that the players clearly slid onto the sideline and out of bounds before any possession could have been established.
The ball was fumbled forward and a Washington and Solon player appeared to get to the ball close to the same time. But, the camera angle showed the players backs on the far sideline.
BUT, it also appeared that the players clearly slid onto the sideline and out of bounds before any possession could have been established.
I think that after all is said and done, it is just simply disappointing that a game came down to a play that had multiple errors made my multiple referees on one occasion. That being said, my guess would be that that crew's last dome experience was last night. It is impossible for any of us to tell what could have happened if the play was called appropriately. Multiple scenarios could have happened. Solon drives down and scores, goes up 9. Washington intercepts a pass. Solon runs the clock down to a minute left and gets a 4th field goal to go up 5 and force washington to go all the way down the field (which they hadn't done all night except for 2 plays) So many things could have been different, but the fact of the matter is is that the game is over and whats called was called and what mistakes were made, were made. Both teams played one heck of a football game the other 100-some plays and we can't discredit that.
This post was edited on 11/15 11:36 AM by northclark
This post was edited on 11/15 11:36 AM by northclark
Well said.... There were blown calls on both sides multiple times last night. Washington ended up with the one that had the most significance but I also saw multiple false starts and holds by Solon against Washington that were not called and some on Washington against Solon. On at least 2 of Solons field goal drives there were some holds that were NOT called that would have forced Solon to punt. If all calls were made fairly, then Solon would have only had 1 field goal during the whole game and Washington would have had only 1 touchdown in my opinion.....
I get the rest of what happened and yes it sounds like a comedy of errors on the officials' part, but I just wanted to know if Solon players touched the ball first, because would that then be a live ball and negate the not allowing the offense to "advance due to a fumble"?
Obviously when it's bang bang, it's a judgment call as to who touched the ball first, but I believe if Solon tries to recover first (touching the ball) and then it's recovered by Washington it's their ball on the spot.
Of course this point is all just as an aside considering the description of the play. (mentioning the fact that it appeared it was not even covered in bounds)
I'm just trying to throw out a perspective for the refs.
Obviously when it's bang bang, it's a judgment call as to who touched the ball first, but I believe if Solon tries to recover first (touching the ball) and then it's recovered by Washington it's their ball on the spot.
Of course this point is all just as an aside considering the description of the play. (mentioning the fact that it appeared it was not even covered in bounds)
I'm just trying to throw out a perspective for the refs.
If Washington had been ahead at the time of the play, I'd tend to agree with you. But they weren't. They were down 9-7 and would have had to punt. There wasn't a lot of time left; Solon might have--probably would have--been able to hold on to the lead, especially in a low-scoring game like this one with lots of punting. Washington's go-ahead score occurred a couple of plays after the controversial one. If the reverse call had been made, that go-ahead score doesn't happen--at least not right there. Washington may have gotten the ball back later, and scored the go ahead points anyway. We'll never know. But to say that one play didn't decide it--or at very least help decide it--simply isn't true.
It is tempting to try to be even-handed here, going with platitudes like "these referees are doing the best they can--they're not being paid much--they're in it for the love of the game--it's all about the kids--they make their own breaks", etc. Those generic, safe, uncontroversial, middle-of-the-road responses can sometimes even be true. Just not in this case
This post was edited on 11/15 1:51 PM by cruhawk
So your saying the refs "threw" the game?
My father has been a high school football official for 20+ years and his crew has never done a game in the dome. I called him when that play happened, and asked him about it. He said unless you have ever been in an officials shoes, you don't know. I said it was clearly obvious the players knee was down. He just said in reply, "that's the angle of the camera." Do they have the angle of the officials view? Maybe his view was blocked, maybe other officials didn't have the best view. He just kept on talking about how he will always back officials, because unless you have been in that situation, you do not know. So i tend to agree with him on this issue.
No. I'm not saying mistakes don't happen. I am saying that it's certainly understandable that Solon fans/students/players feel like they got screwed, because they did. Responding to them by saying, in effect, "well, that's just the way the ole cookie crumbles; ya win some/ya lose some" or some other lame platitude is easy when it doesn't happen to you.
I can guarantee you that if Iowa lost to Nebraska under similar circumstances, there would be an absolute meltdown on the HR boards. I'm in favor of instant replay in semifinal/final games. They're in the Dome, so the technical ability is available. Obviously you can't do it for all hs games, but the playoff games in the Dome have a little more riding on them than the average fall Friday skirmish
With all the technology today would love someone to find this clip and youtube the video for those of us who did not get to see the play.
Now as far as the rule goes, in high school football any player can advance any fumble on any down. So the 4th down issue everyone is getting excited about is something you see on Saturdays and Sundays. NO this is not a Iowa High School rule it is a National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS) which the State of Iowa Football rules are governed.
Now for the people saying these refs should never ref again you are idiots.
How are these officials assigned to state playoffs games? They receive recommendations for the coaches. So the coaches are the ones that basically choose by that format who will work the playoff games.
The crew that worked last nights game has worked semis and championship games before and will again. They are all also college officials. Some have worked the Arena League and even Arena League championship game. So they are all more than qualified. I will also guarantee you not a single one of them cares who wins the game. They are out there working as hard as they can to call the best game they can.
Just taking a quick glance at stats it appears it the game had rough 100-110 plays in the game. If people want to say that one play decided the game I call bull. Some may appear to be bigger than others but no one play decides it.
I have reffed football both high school and college for the past 19 yrs. I would love to see many of you fans, players and coaches step on the field and ref even it was a youth game or junior high game. Most of you would crap your pants. In Iowa high school football 5 people watching 22 players. The speed of the game and all the nuances would just amaze people
But I am very excited by how many expert officials we have here so I am sure next fall many if not all will be registering as officials and can be a new wave in the state. I would also hope many of you post your schedules online here so we can all come watch how it is done.
In closing I would still love to see the play on youtube before I make any comment on the play.
Just remember this -- WITHOUT OFFICIALS THEN ITS ONLY RECESS
Now as far as the rule goes, in high school football any player can advance any fumble on any down. So the 4th down issue everyone is getting excited about is something you see on Saturdays and Sundays. NO this is not a Iowa High School rule it is a National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS) which the State of Iowa Football rules are governed.
Now for the people saying these refs should never ref again you are idiots.
How are these officials assigned to state playoffs games? They receive recommendations for the coaches. So the coaches are the ones that basically choose by that format who will work the playoff games.
The crew that worked last nights game has worked semis and championship games before and will again. They are all also college officials. Some have worked the Arena League and even Arena League championship game. So they are all more than qualified. I will also guarantee you not a single one of them cares who wins the game. They are out there working as hard as they can to call the best game they can.
Just taking a quick glance at stats it appears it the game had rough 100-110 plays in the game. If people want to say that one play decided the game I call bull. Some may appear to be bigger than others but no one play decides it.
I have reffed football both high school and college for the past 19 yrs. I would love to see many of you fans, players and coaches step on the field and ref even it was a youth game or junior high game. Most of you would crap your pants. In Iowa high school football 5 people watching 22 players. The speed of the game and all the nuances would just amaze people
But I am very excited by how many expert officials we have here so I am sure next fall many if not all will be registering as officials and can be a new wave in the state. I would also hope many of you post your schedules online here so we can all come watch how it is done.
In closing I would still love to see the play on youtube before I make any comment on the play.
Just remember this -- WITHOUT OFFICIALS THEN ITS ONLY RECESS
Unlikely...Unlikely?! You know, Mr. 10,311 posts, it was a 50 yard pass (catch/run) that scored for Washington and maybe if they had to go 80 yards, it might have been 80 yards on the TD.
My point wasn't the "likelihood" of Washington scoring, it was the unmeasurable factor that this Knupp kid was going to find the end zone no matter what. I would think after 10,311 posts you would have a better eye for the greatness of the unpredictable outcomes of this game of football.
The end of the game with Solon trying to go 80 yards in what ...20 seconds(?) is a perfect example. Solon hadn't scored a TD all night and as you watched them in those closing seconds with the completed pass and the pass interference call with time running out...last play of the game looked like they still had a shot. That's what makes any sport great...the unthinkable, those moments you live for as players, coaches and fans.
I guess my response could be:
Unlikely Solon was going to keep Knupp out of the end zone during the final 5 minutes of the game. He was the only player who scored a TD all night and Washington had worn down Solon by the end of the game. All it takes is 1 play for either team in a game like this one.
O Stats:
Washington: Pass 101 1 TD, Run 248 1 TD
Solon: Pass 61 0 TD, Run 131 0 TD
So now I have to have been an official to have a valid opinion on the missed call? Following your line of thought really removes a lot of conversation, better never complain about an overcooked steak at a restaurant unless you have been a cook, better never complain about a politician unless you have been one. The guys missed the call, it happens, I don't think it was intentional. Anybody have an opinion on the call in baseball that ruined the perfect game? Unless you have been an mlb umpire better just zip it. Admit it and move on.
I have said it before, what happened, happened. We can hash this out for the next year if we really wanted to. The game is over and Washington has moved on to the finals and Solon ends their season one game short of another shot at a state title. It is done, it is over with, the call was made, correct or not, it's done and it is time to move on. I know from a Solon perspective easier said than done, but we can hash this out forever. It is done, game is over, the end.
Northclark,
It is over and needs to be dropped. I will offer this as a possible cause as to how this could happen so that possibly officials can learn by it. Right now that is where the focus should be. How can we prevent this from happening again?
I wonder if the officials became too focused on the ball since this was a 4th down attempt and a correct spot was going to be crucial. The way the Washington player overexposed the ball with his reach may also have caused the official to lose all focus except on the ball (which they expected to be fumbled). Don't get me wrong. I'm not blaming the Washington player for trying to milk the play for very inch.....he had to.. the game depended on it.
A few years ago I was at a game and the RB had a bad habit of carrying the ball with too little protection. It was so bad it became a distraction with everyone watching and waiting for the ball to come out. During a screen pass while he was being tackled I turned to a companion and said, "he needs to tuck it in". At the end of the tackle the ball did come out BUT after he was clearly down. The official called it a fumble. It was a regular season game and there was of course no instant replay to watch but none was needed. It was that clear to see he was down before the fumble occurred. That time I did blame the player for contributing to the situation. He carried the ball in a manner that everyone (including the refs) were just waiting to see get stripped. When the ball finally did come lose they thought it had to be a fumble.
One more thing to consider. When you are on the sidelines, stands, or even at home watching a game on TV sometimes you have better distance to see the whole big picture of what happened than the ref who may be too close to the play or had a bad angle. Closer isn't always better. Like with many things in our lives proper distancing is important. Doesn't necessarily make the ref a terrible official unless of course he did a poor job of following the play and put himself in a bad position (or too close) to make a good call.
It is over and needs to be dropped. I will offer this as a possible cause as to how this could happen so that possibly officials can learn by it. Right now that is where the focus should be. How can we prevent this from happening again?
I wonder if the officials became too focused on the ball since this was a 4th down attempt and a correct spot was going to be crucial. The way the Washington player overexposed the ball with his reach may also have caused the official to lose all focus except on the ball (which they expected to be fumbled). Don't get me wrong. I'm not blaming the Washington player for trying to milk the play for very inch.....he had to.. the game depended on it.
A few years ago I was at a game and the RB had a bad habit of carrying the ball with too little protection. It was so bad it became a distraction with everyone watching and waiting for the ball to come out. During a screen pass while he was being tackled I turned to a companion and said, "he needs to tuck it in". At the end of the tackle the ball did come out BUT after he was clearly down. The official called it a fumble. It was a regular season game and there was of course no instant replay to watch but none was needed. It was that clear to see he was down before the fumble occurred. That time I did blame the player for contributing to the situation. He carried the ball in a manner that everyone (including the refs) were just waiting to see get stripped. When the ball finally did come lose they thought it had to be a fumble.
One more thing to consider. When you are on the sidelines, stands, or even at home watching a game on TV sometimes you have better distance to see the whole big picture of what happened than the ref who may be too close to the play or had a bad angle. Closer isn't always better. Like with many things in our lives proper distancing is important. Doesn't necessarily make the ref a terrible official unless of course he did a poor job of following the play and put himself in a bad position (or too close) to make a good call.
Lots of passionate fans here which is good to see. HS sports certainly are unpredictable which is why they are so much fun for all involved.
I was not at the game, but I am very curious as to why the video screen operators showed the play in the first place to the crowd. Close calls/penalties/injuries and the like are rarely shown on video boards at pro or college stadiums. Conversely, during professional broadcasts, we get to see those plays ad nauseum as they are broken down over and over. My guess here is the television video may have been the same feed as the jumbotron video screen feed...am guessing things may have been ugly there for awhile inside the stadium after they showed the knee down.
Parting comment: Any non-dominate team that makes it to the semis and above generally has been the victim of good fortune along the way. Whether it's staying injury free, benefiting from playing a team having injuries, ref calls, lucky plays, miraculous plays, you get the idea. As an example, Solon certainly benefitted from Decorah not having their top player on the field in the quarters....this kind of stuff happens every year...very unpredictable and a whole lot of fun for us fans.
I was not at the game, but I am very curious as to why the video screen operators showed the play in the first place to the crowd. Close calls/penalties/injuries and the like are rarely shown on video boards at pro or college stadiums. Conversely, during professional broadcasts, we get to see those plays ad nauseum as they are broken down over and over. My guess here is the television video may have been the same feed as the jumbotron video screen feed...am guessing things may have been ugly there for awhile inside the stadium after they showed the knee down.
Parting comment: Any non-dominate team that makes it to the semis and above generally has been the victim of good fortune along the way. Whether it's staying injury free, benefiting from playing a team having injuries, ref calls, lucky plays, miraculous plays, you get the idea. As an example, Solon certainly benefitted from Decorah not having their top player on the field in the quarters....this kind of stuff happens every year...very unpredictable and a whole lot of fun for us fans.
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