Am I the only one sick of it?
- Thread starter GreasedPig75
- Start date
I can't wait for the year sometime soon when no catholic schools make the finals and there will be absolutely no complaining on the boards. Like the Xavier supporter is saying obviously there are some wealthy people at private schools but most the parents are making sacrifices to send their kids there and produce the same amount of income as most of the public school parents. It just blows my mind that people think the state is actually going to move up the private schools because they have good coaching staffs/programs. The state isn't going to make any changes just because private schools have had large success the past two years, that would be like them moving up both emmetsburg and harlan when they both were on outrageous winning streaks at the same time about 7-8 years ago. How in the hell do you honestly think the state could explain the multiplier to the schools, hey you guys are winning so we are moving you up, and Valley, Harlan, and Solon are not...just won't happen, you can't change rules for private schools because they draw from a "larger population" when there are a ton of public schools winning titles that "draw from large populations." What "large population" was Emmetsburg feeding off of when they one three in a row? how about harlan...solon?? Bottom line: the state isn't going to move up private schools just because some of them have good football programs, you look at Regina and Xavier and yes as a whole they have good athletics programs but the sports besides football just aren't that dominant. The football dominance comes from the coaching and off season work, I am sure if Xavier and Regina had as good as coaching in basketball and set as much time in the off season to practice basketball as they did football then they would be making the finals in that too, but they don't and that is why they don't win basketball titles, not because they are private and in an urban area.
For the most part the arguments being made here are immature and could be made by 2nd graders. To accuse private schools of cheating the absurd (they are working within the rules as they exist) and to those who think public schools just need to 'get better' is also borderline moronic thinking.
There is no question that the private schools have better football teams right now per capita than their public brethren. The real question is: Why is that and should something be done about it? Well, that is a point of speculation at best.
While doing research last week, I found that a few states have used a hybrid system of classifying teams (private and public) according to their success level/population base. For example if you have won 3 straight championships and 55 games in a row, you get bumped up until they find a level of fair competition, where games are competitive, not blowouts each and every week. (Don't mean to pick on Regina, just using them as an example.)
I don't know how this would work, but this would not only apply to private schools but also public schools who have dominant runs. On the average you don't see as many public schools have long runs because the variance associated with certain classes ability levels. Not trying to open up an argument here, but the recruiting angle in a private school does make it a bit easier to fill in areas of need as classes get into high school. However, I think it's also interesting to note that many public schools, (such as Solon) have many transfers late in high school grades to help their teams.
Finally, in the case of a private schools in a large population base I think that as 4A schools in the area have limited success it may help the small private schools get some of those transfers. For example, in the last few years, some IC kids can play 4A football with limited success or go to Regina and win state titles and play for Marv Cook. What would you do? Can't blame kids or parents at all. If IC West continues to get better and play deep into November that may cut into Regina's dominance.
But of course this is all my opinion... I could be wrong.
There is no question that the private schools have better football teams right now per capita than their public brethren. The real question is: Why is that and should something be done about it? Well, that is a point of speculation at best.
While doing research last week, I found that a few states have used a hybrid system of classifying teams (private and public) according to their success level/population base. For example if you have won 3 straight championships and 55 games in a row, you get bumped up until they find a level of fair competition, where games are competitive, not blowouts each and every week. (Don't mean to pick on Regina, just using them as an example.)
I don't know how this would work, but this would not only apply to private schools but also public schools who have dominant runs. On the average you don't see as many public schools have long runs because the variance associated with certain classes ability levels. Not trying to open up an argument here, but the recruiting angle in a private school does make it a bit easier to fill in areas of need as classes get into high school. However, I think it's also interesting to note that many public schools, (such as Solon) have many transfers late in high school grades to help their teams.
Finally, in the case of a private schools in a large population base I think that as 4A schools in the area have limited success it may help the small private schools get some of those transfers. For example, in the last few years, some IC kids can play 4A football with limited success or go to Regina and win state titles and play for Marv Cook. What would you do? Can't blame kids or parents at all. If IC West continues to get better and play deep into November that may cut into Regina's dominance.
But of course this is all my opinion... I could be wrong.
You make it sound like this has been going on for years! But actually this year is an exception to the norm.
in 2007 there were 3 Private schools in the Championship Games and only 1 Champion (2 played each other)
in 2008 there was only 1 Private schools in the Championship Games and they won
in 2009 there were 2 Private schools in the Championship Games and 0 Champions
in 2010 there were 3 Private schools in the Championship Games and 2 Champions
in 2011 there were 3 Private schools in the Championship Games and 2 Champions
in 2012 there were 4 Private schools in the Championship Games and only 1 Champion
I guess a fair question is: What is your school and why do you think we should be sick of it?
My kids went to Xavier and I wouldn't trade it for all the extra hours of work it took to pay for it and hours at practice I sat through!
in 2007 there were 3 Private schools in the Championship Games and only 1 Champion (2 played each other)
in 2008 there was only 1 Private schools in the Championship Games and they won
in 2009 there were 2 Private schools in the Championship Games and 0 Champions
in 2010 there were 3 Private schools in the Championship Games and 2 Champions
in 2011 there were 3 Private schools in the Championship Games and 2 Champions
in 2012 there were 4 Private schools in the Championship Games and only 1 Champion
I guess a fair question is: What is your school and why do you think we should be sick of it?
My kids went to Xavier and I wouldn't trade it for all the extra hours of work it took to pay for it and hours at practice I sat through!
I'll start off with a compliment before probably upsetting some people, judging by St. Ed's Academic All-State athletes in the past in football alone, the education system there seems exceptional to me, so I'm not sure the better/worse teachers applies to you. The 1.35 model is used to even out participation. You can Google it to find the link. The reason 1.35 is used is because 35% of additional participation in private schools. That is the merit behind the multiplier, to even the participation gap.
This is the analogy I like to use.
You have 20 students in a P.E. class playing dodgeball. On one team is 10 baseball players including 2 all-state pitchers. On the 2nd team is 5 pretty good dodgeball players and 5 kids that have been suspended multiple times, don't dress out for P.E. half the time, and/or have no real concern for playing a game in high school. While the baseball team has a natural advantage of athleticism, the real advantage comes from them wanting to be there. Sure, the lesser team here can try harder, practice more, put themselves in a better position to win, but it's harder to convince kids to try harder that don't want any part of the school or any of it's programs. You're saying that since it's 10v10 the playing field is even.
This translates in the public vs. private debate in that kids at private schools typically WANT to be there, or a significant influence in their lives WANTS them to be there. That's why you get higher participation, that's why they have more students in off-season camps and in the weight room. I'm willing to bet most schools have a good strength and conditioning program set up, but the volume of students attending them at private schools is going to be higher in most cases. You say "Get your kids in the weight room, get them to work harder, and get them to quit being girls". The culture isn't the same at a public school, ESPECIALLY at the small town schools. There are always kids that don't want anything to do with school because they know they are just going to farm when they get done anyways.
I know people are still going to say, work harder, do more to get people involved, etc. My goal isn't to change your mind 100%, it's to just have you realize where "the complainers" are coming from. I really could care less if private schools win or lose. They still have to put in the work to get where they are and they have to execute on the field. I just believe that it's easier to convince a lot of kids that are committed than convincing a moderate amount of kids that are just as committed to work even harder. To me the difference is numbers. I'd hate to start punishing schools because they have kids participate, but when the discrepancy becomes so high, it just seems like a lot to overcome.
Regina scrimmaged william penn university and won 44-0 and penn blamed it on better recruiting lol jk....that was a joke by the way...Ill admit I used to get all pissed about this topic and private schools but gave up when I played in college and played on the same team as several private school kids and realized they were not any better than anyone else on the team. Hell I even glanced over in the locker room and seen that they were putting on their pads the same way I was...
I have a few thoughts. At the end of the season the state should give everyone at every school a state football medal! Oh and don't forget they should also get a championship football and a t-shirt! Then it will all be fair for all that played the game. We could even get some mom's to cut up some oranges so all of the boy's can have a treat! Also we shouldn't keep score because some of the kids feel bad when they lose
..sorry about my sarcasm. In the end it's just a game! And I think that football is a lot like life. Generally speaking the harder you (including teammates and coaches) work the better you do. Some will win and some will lose. Work hard and good things will happen, on and off the field! Remember its just a game.
I still think we need a 3rd class of high schools in Iowa: "None Of The Above".
None Of The Above schools would stress socialization, working on cars, hunting, watching football on TV, fishing, 7 on 7 passing drills, power lifting, and other ways of preparing for the FB season. None of these activities would stress the Good Ol' Boys' minds so they could focus on what's really important in the Grand Scheme Of Things, football. To keep the Department Of Education happy, we could administer literacy tests - None Of The Above schools that scored above 80% functionally literate would not face state sanctions. That way we wouldn't have to worry about NCLB, Core Curriculums, etc, either. It would be a win/win scenario.
Just sayin'
None Of The Above schools would stress socialization, working on cars, hunting, watching football on TV, fishing, 7 on 7 passing drills, power lifting, and other ways of preparing for the FB season. None of these activities would stress the Good Ol' Boys' minds so they could focus on what's really important in the Grand Scheme Of Things, football. To keep the Department Of Education happy, we could administer literacy tests - None Of The Above schools that scored above 80% functionally literate would not face state sanctions. That way we wouldn't have to worry about NCLB, Core Curriculums, etc, either. It would be a win/win scenario.
Just sayin'
Why would the state do a multiplier for participation when Regina had 12 seniors and 11 juniors out for football last year? They probably weren't even in their top half of their own district for jr/sr participation. And the urban area argument is horrible, they still have the same amount of kids as other 1A schools. And no one has still explained to me how some of the most dominant programs in the history of 1A are from as rural area as it gets (emmestburg) what was their secret or advantage? They won three state championships in a row, its possible to win that many championships in a row with the right coaches and players
I was perusing the Bcmoore rankings and noticed a lot of private schools at or near the bottom of their respective classes. So maybe we're asking the wrong question. What can we do to make sure every school finishes either 5-4 or 4-5? Clearly if any private schools are finishing below so many of their public counterparts, the public schools have some sort of unfair advantage.
I think you missed the point. The goal isn't to lower the bar. It's even the playing field. Ex. Regina had 196 students that want to attend that school. Maq Valley had 160. Sure, Maq Valley competed against Regina, but I would be willing to bet 36 (48 if use the average of 12 per class) additional kids wouldn't hurt. Not all will be boys that play football, but at the 1A level, 5 kids can go a long ways.
I think I got it fellas, but this could take awhile. Bear with me:
We take the number of males out for that sport / number of males in the school. Take that number multiplied by the # of boys in the school. (Yes, we would have to calculate BEDS based on gender). Now we take care of the "they get a higher % if their kids to participate" argument. But we ain't done! What if a team happens to "outsmart" their opponent because they have more intelligent kids-I mean that isn't really an equal playing field. So we take the number calculated above and multiply it by the average ACT score for said team. Hold everything!!!!!! There is a socioeconomic factor as well. So take the last figure and multiply by the average or median income (Not sure which one- I need help from Tony Reali and the stats dept here). Example - mediam income is 47k, take it times .47. Median income is 120k, take it times 1.2. Not sure if it is quite fair that the southern Iowa teams on average have a better climate. FINALLY, take the last number we got and multiply it by the average temp of the city the school resides in for the months of that athletic activity. I am sure there are more, but that wore me out. Whew!!!!!!!!
We take the number of males out for that sport / number of males in the school. Take that number multiplied by the # of boys in the school. (Yes, we would have to calculate BEDS based on gender). Now we take care of the "they get a higher % if their kids to participate" argument. But we ain't done! What if a team happens to "outsmart" their opponent because they have more intelligent kids-I mean that isn't really an equal playing field. So we take the number calculated above and multiply it by the average ACT score for said team. Hold everything!!!!!! There is a socioeconomic factor as well. So take the last figure and multiply by the average or median income (Not sure which one- I need help from Tony Reali and the stats dept here). Example - mediam income is 47k, take it times .47. Median income is 120k, take it times 1.2. Not sure if it is quite fair that the southern Iowa teams on average have a better climate. FINALLY, take the last number we got and multiply it by the average temp of the city the school resides in for the months of that athletic activity. I am sure there are more, but that wore me out. Whew!!!!!!!!
I don't know exactly which schools are private and which ones are not, but here is a list of the private schools I found that are in the bottom 10 of BCMoore's rankings in their respective classes.
Ankeny Christian 8-Man
Cedar Valley Christian 8-Man
Unity Christian 2-A
At 10 per class that 60 schools and 3 are private.
5% of the bottom 10 rankings are private schools. Given there could be more, but 5% doesn't seem like a lot to me.
Let's look at the top 10.
Don Bosco 8-Man
Garrigan A
Regina 1-A
St. Ed 1-A
Kuemper 2-A
Beckman 2-A
Heelan 3-A
Downling 4-A
Xavier 4-A
9/60 are private. 3 times as many.
So....2003-2012. Okay then give me a sec......................
If I understand what you're asking, correctly, then here's the private school state champions' records since 2003 and then the current title game private schools' postseason records since 2003 (hopefully that helps you out some):
2003: none (12-1 CBSA, 1A runner-up)
2004: 10-3 Waterloo Columbus, 2A champ; 13-0 CBSA, 1A champ; 12-0 Remsen St. Mary's, 8-man champ
2005: 12-1 IC Regina, 1A champ (10-3 Bishop Garrigan, 1A runner-up)
2006: 13-0 CR Xavier, 4A champ; 11-2 CBSA, 1A champ
2007: 13-0 CBSA, 1A champ (11-2 Bishop Heelan, 3A runner-up; 11-2 IC Regina, 1A runner-up)
2008: 14-0 Bishop Heelan, 3A champ
2009: 14-0 CBSA, 1A champ (12-2 Mason City Newman, A runner-up)
2010: 14-0 WDM Dowling, 4A champ; 14-0 IC Regina, 2A champ (12-2 Bishop Heelan, 3A runner-up)
2011: 14-0 IC Regina, 2A champ (13-1 CBSA, 1A runner-up)
2012: 14-0 IC Regina, 1A champ (13-1 CR Xavier, 4A runner-up; 12-2 Bishop Heelan, 3A runner-up; 12-2 CBSA, 1A runner-up; 12-1 Don Bosco, 8-man runner-up)
Playoff qualifiers:
4A-
WDM Dowling: 2004, '05, '06, '08, '09, '10 (1st), '11, '12, '13
CR Xavier: 2003, '06 (1st), '07, '08, '09, '10, '11, '12, '13
3A-
SC Bishop Heelan: 2003, '04, '05, '07 (2nd), '08 (1st), '09, '10 (2nd), '11, '12 (2nd), '13
2A-
Carroll Kuemper: 2004, '05, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11, '12, '13
1A-
IC Regina: 2004, '05 (1st, 1A), '06, '07 (2nd, 1A), '08, '09, '10 (1st, 2A), '11 (1st, 2A), '12 (1st, 1A), '13
St. Edmond: 2004 (2A), '05 (2A), '06, '08, '09, '11 (2A), '12, '13
8 Man-
Don Bosco, Gilbertville: 2011 (A), '12 (2nd, 8-man), '13
......would you like trips to the Dome and playoff record included???
We could add turf vs. grass fields or gyms that have the half bleachers vs. the really tall bleachers. You should probably factor in championships over the past 10 years and the previous record during the last district cycle should count as well for football. (18-0 would be *2.0 while 0-18 would be *0.5) For wrestling we could give extra pounds instead of changing the school size since there are only 3 classes.
It has nothing to do with "better" it has to do with more inventory to draw from. this isn't that hard people.
So, said another way...."do you really want to send the message to a class A school that they are half as good as a 2A school?"
So what do you do with the West Branch's of the world? They sit 8 miles outside of Iowa City. I'm going to take a wild guess that there are families that have chosen to reside there for a "small town" atmosphere but work at the U or work in Iowa City. Solon, Clear Creek Amana etc. Do they not draw from the same inventory? How do you handle those communities and what is the mile marker that changes that advantage?
So, said another way...."do you really want to send the message to a class A school that they are half as good as a 2A school?"
So what do you do with the West Branch's of the world? They sit 8 miles outside of Iowa City. I'm going to take a wild guess that there are families that have chosen to reside there for a "small town" atmosphere but work at the U or work in Iowa City. Solon, Clear Creek Amana etc. Do they not draw from the same inventory? How do you handle those communities and what is the mile marker that changes that advantage?
Someone said there are 25 private schools (idk if that's right, could be)
waterloo Columbus and DM Christian were bad as well. Pella Christian was far from good as well and those handful of schools that are at the bottom I found in about 15 seconds of looking so I suppose it's possible those are the only bad teams which is 5/25. There are about 10/25 that were really good and I bet that last 10 are in between... So draw your own conclusions.
There's Southwest Valley which is a 1A school playing 8-man. NFV is 2A (Close to 3?) playing 1A under the same circumstances, but not any 2A playing A that I can think of. You know, maybe the whole public vs. private debate is a conspiracy put on by the boys in Boone to take the pressure off of the real debate... Consolidated schools in small town Iowa with really large school district size.
Dumb? Lot of that going in this thread. List all the stupidity? Don't have the time or the inclination.
The real problem in this thread is everybody wants to be "right" in their opinion.
There are some extremely valid points being made on both sides here. Like I said I don't have a dog in the fight. We have to play by the rules that are made for us. Whining and complaining won't win games.
Why does there have to be change? Looking back this season is not common. It's not like we have the private schools winning state championships year in and out.
Also by saying that a person is "uninformed" is really a uninformed way to make your argument. You don't know me nor do I know you. I don't know if you have a position in the school and have data or if your just a fan that thinks it's unfair.
There are some extremely valid points being made on both sides here. Like I said I don't have a dog in the fight. We have to play by the rules that are made for us. Whining and complaining won't win games.
Why does there have to be change? Looking back this season is not common. It's not like we have the private schools winning state championships year in and out.
Also by saying that a person is "uninformed" is really a uninformed way to make your argument. You don't know me nor do I know you. I don't know if you have a position in the school and have data or if your just a fan that thinks it's unfair.
Doubtful a multiplier will do anything. Didn't Regina go up 2 classes and thump 3A Solon (a team who made it to the dome this year) 38-0? Didn't CK play up and go 2-0 against 3A schools this year?
How would a multiplier impact Xavier and Dowling?
The only private school I can see that a multiplier might make a big difference to would be Heelan. A multiplier which placed them in 4A would still leave them a good 4A school but would likely have an on their capabilities in Cedar Falls on the fewer instances when they got there.
How would a multiplier impact Xavier and Dowling?
The only private school I can see that a multiplier might make a big difference to would be Heelan. A multiplier which placed them in 4A would still leave them a good 4A school but would likely have an on their capabilities in Cedar Falls on the fewer instances when they got there.
Are you that naive?
West Branch/Solon/CCA: have formed boundaries for their school district. WB, for example, has a population base of 2,625 to pool from.
Regina: has no formed boundary, and pulls kids from a community base of 120,000.
Try again, fella.
I would like to address the posts that say "work harder" is a stupid argument. I have a close friend who is the new Superintendent at a northcentral Iowa school district. He wants to change the athletic environment to be successful. He has younger kids so one of the things he started when he got there is starting a morning running club for Track. It was not being done. Parents are gladly making donations for a new weightroom and equipment. The support is there. The coaches however, have informed him that they do not know how to put a lifting program together. He reached out to a professional organization and they brought one in. The coaches have now informed him that they do not have the time to go to the weightroom and supervise the kids. They come to practice at 3:30 and leave promptly at 5:30.
Following the the Regina/North Fayette Valley game, which was a good game, the North Fayette coach said we need to change things and basically add more to our offense. We can't keep doing the same thing.
This is what we are talking about. Teams like North Fayette could be scary if they go outside the box a little bit. Teams , like my friends case, need new coaching staffs plain and simple. It's not just the kids working harder but also the team's staff.
Work harder makes sense for those who understand athletics. Those of you who don't keep posting about the multiplier and moving all private schools to one class. You simply don't get it!
Following the the Regina/North Fayette Valley game, which was a good game, the North Fayette coach said we need to change things and basically add more to our offense. We can't keep doing the same thing.
This is what we are talking about. Teams like North Fayette could be scary if they go outside the box a little bit. Teams , like my friends case, need new coaching staffs plain and simple. It's not just the kids working harder but also the team's staff.
Work harder makes sense for those who understand athletics. Those of you who don't keep posting about the multiplier and moving all private schools to one class. You simply don't get it!
While this may be unfair that consolidated schools are playing down a class, you have to remember that this only happens for one year. These schools will all be re-districted in the next cycle and put in their proper classification. NFV will be 2A and Southwest Valley will be 1A next year. So the IAHSAA will solve this problem....
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