The old private school argument

[wscbaseball21]

Just thought I would post something that continues to be a topic of discussion but I do believe that this years football championships makes a pretty heavy argument about the subject.

Class 4A
Dowling Catholic vs. Xavier ( a private school will win)

3A
S.C. Heelan vs. Washington

2A
Carroll Keumper vs. Waukon

1A
IC Regina vs. Fort Dodge St. Edmond (will be a private school champion)

A
BGM vs. West Lyon (No private school)

8 Man
Don Bosco vs. Exira

In 2 of these 6 classes there will be a private school champion and in three of the 4 classes the private school is probably the favorite to win. Only 1 class has two public school playing against one another. 7 of 12 schools are private school playing for a state title.



This post was edited on 11/18 11:26 AM by wscbaseball21

 

[PNation]

3A Heelan will win

2A Waukon has a reasonable chance

8 player I really don't follow 8 player, but I know DonBosco has a beds above the limit and over 40 players out so why are they in 8 player?

 

[OtherWiseGinger]

According to the other board it's because the public schools don't try hard enough.

 

[bigfridaynite]

That just shows kids in private schools just work harder in the weight room and have better parent support plus better coaches.As nothing to do with talent,
Just wait till BB starts.

 

[suecitysue]

Silly men, don't you know that on the 7th day, God said; and let all Catholic students be better athletes. And so it was.

 

[CrusaderHawk]

Here we go again. I love the last comment by Suecitysue. But that doesn't make any sense either as I believe there are more catholics that go to Sioux City East than Heelan. I cannot understand this argument. Those Catholic schools you talk about are not private. They are catholic schools. They will accept anyone of any denomination. You may have to pay a higher tuition, but nonetheless they are not private. As kids who are in the Heelan system, I can certainly attest to the fact that our facilities are substantially worse than the public schools in our town. There are many public schools around the area that have tremendous facilities in all class sizes that Heelan does not have. I cannot speak for the other schools in the different classes, so that could be an aberation. But I doubt it. And I can say with all sincerity, almost every kid in our system has been in the system since baptism. Most of the kids who do enroll later at Heelan are unhappy with the system they are currently in. And those numbers are small. With the majority of them not participating in athletics. Why does no one make the arguemnt the W.Des Valley is TO big. Or that Waukee will be there soon. IC West dominated in football and has in basketball a few years now, are they doing something wrong ? Should they be put in a seperate class all by themselves ? I guess I am beating a dead horse here, as long at Catholic schools or parochial schools make the finals in something, people will be upset about it.

 

[bigfridaynite]

This is the Iowa state football championship for Iowa kids.
That's all that needs to be said about Heelan.

 

[gohawks2011]

Heelan recruits as if they are a college. That alone is the big difference and that's where the problems are. Only at a Heelan event will you see athletes getting in and out of their vehicles with license plates from Iowa, Nebraska and South Dakota. Maybe public schools should be allowed to do that...lets have a total free for all and see what happens. Maybe the topic should be open enrollment....I think we will definitely see that on the rise within the public system.

 

[OtherWiseGinger]

CrusaderHawk - Example for you

Enrollment of Valley 2100+ (largest in all of Iowa)
Enrollment of ICWest 1300+ (more than twice as many kids as Xavier)
Enrollment of Dowling 1100+ (1000 less students than Valley)
Enrollment of Bettendorf 1000+ (near equal to Dowling and twice as many as Xavier)
Enrollment of Xavier 540+ (2nd smallest of all 4A schools)
Enrollment of Assumption 331 (smallest of all 4A)

Roster sizes 41,86,64,79,56,76 (please match up the rosters with the schools).

 

[CrusaderHawk]

You are all right, I'm wrong. No catholic school should be allowed to play in a State Championship. Heelan recruits like a college. Catholic kids in the greater Sioux City area should not be able to attend the Catholic school, and enrollment makes no difference when it comes to catholic instiutions. My apologies

 

[Rembrandt52328]

All your roster size vs enrollment numbers tells me is that Private School kids want to participate. How many kids at Valley are good athletes and could play football but say I'll never get to play so I'm not going out. By sheer numbers there have to be quite a few. I know a kid at Xavier who I watch grow up loves Xavier football. He's 5'5" and 120 lbs. He's out there working his butt off. He'll never be a starter and only gets into the game when they are up by 4 touchdowns. If you look at some of Xaviers stats you will see a lot of games they didn't score in the second half. That's because they played the second and third squads after 1 series in the second half. Xavier defense gave up 86 point so far this year and 28 points over 3 games came when the second team defense was out there agains the first team offense of the other team. The punt, punt return, kick off and kickoff return team is made up of mostly kids who don't start. And it's impressive to see how hard those kids hit or block because this is their chance to play.

So yes Xavier is the team with 86 junior and seniors out for Varsity Football. I think all the other school listed should look at those numbers and not say how do they get so many kids out for football but what do we need to do to get 86 kids out for football.

 

[rillo 62]

Originally posted by gohawks2011:

Heelan recruits as if they are a college. That alone is the big difference and that's where the problems are. Only at a Heelan event will you see athletes getting in and out of their vehicles with license plates from Iowa, Nebraska and South Dakota. Maybe public schools should be allowed to do that...lets have a total free for all and see what happens. Maybe the topic should be open enrollment....I think we will definitely see that on the rise within the public system.

Of course Heelan recruits. How else are they suppose to get students? They have to compete for students with 6 high schools within or a couple of minutes from Sioux City. Those 6 schools also offer free tuition and open enrollment.

 

[Team10]

I think some of it comes from the quality of the public schools in these communities. Davenport, Sioux City and DM Public??? If I lived in these communities I would send my kids to a private school also. Sorry if you your kids go to one of those schools but I would not let mine. those are some of the lowest academic schools in the state in those three communities and if there is an option even if I had to pay I would send my kids to private school. is that the case everywhere public vs private. NO. Carroll and Pella are 2 examples of thriving public and private schools. but those are also two communities that value education very very much. But in the end do Private schools go find kids to come to school. heck yes! how else to they get students there? they have to market their school as a place you would want to go so yes they recruit kids and people that say they dont are lying. not other way around getting kids there. They dont just show up at the door having never heard one word or read one thing of info about the school before.

 

[northclark]

This argument could go on for ages. The fact of the matter is is that the state will probably never come up with a way to solve the problem. I have heard, don't know if it is true, but Illinois automatically sends parochial up a class, regardless of enrollment. Again, I highly doubt anything will be done to fix it, but also can't take away the fact that the kids who play on these teams don't just win because they show up, they put in the work and effort to pull out victories, although it is easier when more players can contribute. Both sides have valid arguments.

 

[bigfridaynite]

I agree with you Team 10 but its fun to talk about,
In fact I think a Team like Heelan will bring out the best in Washington Just like it did Decorah and Solon in the past.
Washington has been looking forward to this game since July and I bet them chin straps got tighten up a little bit tighter this week.This group can not hardly wait.
This post was edited on 11/18 3:32 PM by bigfridaynite

 

[Rembrandt52328]

I need to check this out but I think in Illinois they use a multiplier. The main difference is that in Illinois there is no such thing as open enrollment. Here in Iowa if you live in one area of a larger city and you want to go to school in another area, usually you can pay to open enroll in the other school. Now I know it depends on if there are openings but that is the idea of it. In Illinois if you don't like the school you go to there are boundaries and the only change you can make is to go to a private school. So they add the multiplier on to the Catholic schools.

This is how it was explained to me by a Catholic school teacher in a large Illinois town.

 

[Roman_Gabriel]

This!

 

[Roman_Gabriel]

Originally posted by rillo 62:

Originally posted by gohawks2011:

Heelan recruits as if they are a college. That alone is the big difference and that's where the problems are. Only at a Heelan event will you see athletes getting in and out of their vehicles with license plates from Iowa, Nebraska and South Dakota. Maybe public schools should be allowed to do that...lets have a total free for all and see what happens. Maybe the topic should be open enrollment....I think we will definitely see that on the rise within the public system.

Of course Heelan recruits. How else are they suppose to get students? They have to compete for students with 6 high schools within or a couple of minutes from Sioux City. Those 6 schools also offer free tuition and open enrollment.

Tuition assistance = Scollie

How many Poverty level kids does Heelan have?
Special education?
Non English speaking

Public schools take all kids not just athletes and the affluent

 

[rillo 62]

Originally posted by Roman_Gabriel:

Originally posted by rillo 62:

Originally posted by gohawks2011:

Heelan recruits as if they are a college. That alone is the big difference and that's where the problems are. Only at a Heelan event will you see athletes getting in and out of their vehicles with license plates from Iowa, Nebraska and South Dakota. Maybe public schools should be allowed to do that...lets have a total free for all and see what happens. Maybe the topic should be open enrollment....I think we will definitely see that on the rise within the public system.

Of course Heelan recruits. How else are they suppose to get students? They have to compete for students with 6 high schools within or a couple of minutes from Sioux City. Those 6 schools also offer free tuition and open enrollment.

Tuition assistance = Scollie

How many Poverty level kids does Heelan have?
Special education?
Non English speaking

Public schools take all kids not just athletes and the affluent

link

 

[coach'd]

Originally posted by Team10:
I think some of it comes from the quality of the public schools in these communities. Davenport, Sioux City and DM Public??? If I lived in these communities I would send my kids to a private school also. Sorry if you your kids go to one of those schools but I would not let mine. those are some of the lowest academic schools in the state in those three communities and if there is an option even if I had to pay I would send my kids to private school. is that the case everywhere public vs private. NO. Carroll and Pella are 2 examples of thriving public and private schools. but those are also two communities that value education very very much. But in the end do Private schools go find kids to come to school. heck yes! how else to they get students there? they have to market their school as a place you would want to go so yes they recruit kids and people that say they dont are lying. not other way around getting kids there. They dont just show up at the door having never heard one word or read one thing of info about the school before.

Could not agree more. In my experience the vast majority of students being sent to private/Catholic schools by their parents are for education reasons, not sports. Last year there was a similar thread on the girls board about this topic. Come to think of it there seems to be similar threads coming up every year on the topic especially during tournament time. I was not blessed with football players, but did have girls who luckily played basketball(I always feared one may like volleyball). I dont know if it is the same with football, but around here in eastern half of the state the main reason those teams are good is not recruiting, but rather the youth sports programs they have. Maybe its similar with football, I dont know, but I will have to agree with rillos post on people who continue to complain.

 

[bigfridaynite]

IMO sports is a big part too.
Google in Brandon Wegher or Brennan Cougill.
Then tell me they went to Heelan for education.

 

[BigHawk]

If you are throwing stones at the sioux city publics it just tells me you are ignorant. There were plenty of SC public kids who went to Ivy leagues..and everything in between. Your urban schools in Des Moines..Waterloo...Dubuque ..davenport...Sioux city have more lower SES than the burbs hence fewer kids go to college. But trust me...those schools are schools of opportunity just like any other school. I'll ask my neighbor if he feels cheated that his daughter went to one of the publics when she is home from Harvard next week.

Amazing how ignorant some can be....funny stuff.

 

[Team10]

never said that there are 0 kids from those public schools that go on to higher education. oh wait I did not say anything about it that. humm ignorant? I guess you can call me ignorant when you put words in my mouth. I think we can just stop now on this topic because it is not worth my time. I made a valid point.

 

[BigHawk]

You didn't make any point...you said something that is not remotely true. But....I guess we all have different ideas of what ignorance is.

 

[coach'd]

Originally posted by bigfridaynite:

IMO sports is a big part too.
Google in Brandon Wegher or Brennan Cougill.
Then tell me they went to Heelan for education.

I dont disagree that some do go for sports, thats why I did not say everyone, and I dont know anything about the examples you listed. But if you think only private schools get transfers, you are mistaken. Who knows why some families open enroll from one public school to another or go to private school, I figure its none of my business why they make that decision. I feel for most sports most of those kids who are playing started out in the parochial schools(please note I said most and not all) and continue through to the high school level. At least here in the CR Metro area they have probably the best youth sports program. This leads to, in my opinion, to their success. I just think the endless complaining gets tiring, although at some times its the only action going on with these boards, especially the girls category.

 

[bigfridaynite]

I agree coach
I not a fan of the private school gig but I would like to see a list of public schools that have won state championships over the last 10-15 years that didn't have to missing piece move in.
I know Washington would only have golf trophies.

 

[Lincoln was my dog]

About 1/3 of Heelan students are at or below the poverty level.

 

[IAbaseball24]

This is a good read on this topic. Gives insight into what other states have tried.

http://www.athleticbusiness.com/articles/article.aspx?articleid=3938&zoneid=9

 

[cruhawk]

Originally posted by bigfridaynite:

IMO sports is a big part too.
Google in Brandon Wegher or Brennan Cougill.
Then tell me they went to Heelan for education.

Well Wegher had attended the Heelan system since kindergarten, and his mom is a Heelan alum. Try to make a "they stole him from the public schools" argument out of that.

Kids that go there, whether they play sports or not, do have a distinct academic advantage.

So yes....they went there for the education. The burden of proving otherwise is on you. And please don't insult our intelligence by citing some Google page.

 

[bigfridaynite]

I could share with you what Wegher shared with is teammates at Iowa about going to class at Heelan if you where a athletic too.but I won't .
I do know it didn't work at College
There is a reason Jack is in Fl. besides football..
This post was edited on 11/19 3:03 PM by bigfridaynite

 

[northclark]

I would argue this, there are just as good of teachers at public schools as there are at parochial schools. Also there are just as bad of teachers at public schools as there are parochial. Kids go to school to get an education, whether they want to or not, they're going to learn something. Yeah Wegher and Cougill messed up, most all of us do in one way or another. I'm not defending them personally, but I believe most kids that age mess up more than once. If this is the case, we could talk about numerous other kids.

 

[bigfridaynite]

I agree both kids will turn out just fine no doubt and both where great HS players but they where not prepare for college like many of kids and I just get tired of private school supporters think they have the perfect education systems.

 

[cruhawk]

Originally posted by bigfridaynite:

I could share with you what Wegher shared with is teammates at Iowa about going to class at Heelan if you where a athletic too.but I won't .
I do know it didn't work at College
There is a reason Jack is in Fl. besides football..

This post was edited on 11/19 3:03 PM by bigfridaynite

I know for a fact that the younger Wegher is at IMG mainly because of football. It's not like he's going to get a better education there than at Heelan. He won't even really get a better shot at D-1 opportunities there than he would at Heelan.

BTW, there are some who think he could return to Heelan before he's done with high school.

 

[cruhawk]

Originally posted by bigfridaynite:

I agree both kids will turn out just fine no doubt and both where great HS players but they where not prepare for college like many of kids and I just get tired of private school supporters think they have the perfect education systems.

1.) The best way to prepare a kid for college--or any other adult endeavor that sees them leaving home--is to raise them properly in a structured, motivating, and loving home with both parents. I can't imagine my sophomore daughter being better off in a boarding school than with us. I don't care if she averaged 30ppg as a freshman b-ball player on the varsity squad, and had every academy/college/university in the country calling on her. If she'll make it college--as an athlete or not--she has the best chance of preparing right here at home.

2.) No private school "supporter" on here has ever said that such schools have the perfect education systems.

 

[nwiaguy]

Originally posted by bigfridaynite:

I could share with you what Wegher shared with is teammates at Iowa about going to class at Heelan if you where a athletic too.but I won't .
I do know it didn't work at College
There is a reason Jack is in Fl. besides football..




This post was edited on 11/19 3:03 PM by bigfridaynite

I wouldn't believe everything you hear from Brandon Wegher either ......I will say this Heelan is not more challenging I went to public school not gonna say which one and transferred to Heelan my sophomore year. Yes I played sports and there were plenty of people saying at my old school I was recruited or I was getting free tuition. My parents just laughed and were like you wanna see our bank statements. Heelan does not recruit people wanna go where there is success there is nothing wrong with that. The coaches are better and there is more discipline the parents are more involved in helping kids go to camps, early morning workouts and that's part of it. There are kids on the westside of Sioux City as Im sure there are more in other cities like Des Moines, CR, Quad Cities, etc that have never been on a vacation let alone left there area of there own city. Parents don't care they are single mothers working two jobs and are not home or have the time or both parents work and the last thing on there mind is how the area football or basketball team is doing. Someone earlier stated about the South Dakota or Nebraska plates on cars at the school anybody who is not geographically challenged knows that Sewer City is located on the border of all three states. So if you are from lets say Jackson, Nebraska and you are of catholic faith that means you should go to school where? I would guess the closest catholic school to your area which happens to be Heelan, not Norfolk Catholic see just because its in the same state doesn't mean its closer. Recruiting please...... HATERS HATE ON.

This post was edited on 11/19 5:42 PM by nwiaguy
This post was edited on 11/19 5:50 PM by nwiaguy

 

[bigfridaynite]

Private schools have to recruit students I get that and have no probably with that.
Just don't come on the board and say they work harder and give a better education and parents support more that ticks me off.

 

[long-may-u-run]

Originally posted by bigfridaynite:
Private schools have to recruit students I get that and have no probably with that.
Just don't come on the board and say they work harder and give a better education and parents support more that ticks me off.

Why does it tick you off? Seems you have anger issues. If you had gone to a parochial school you would not be so stressed. Say the rosary, it will sooth your soul. The rosary.....therein lies "The Secret." Don't tell.

 

[nwiaguy]

The parenting factor might be the biggest factor. Sorry that offends or ticks you off but it is what it is what it is. Working harder then the public schools is not the always the case but as far Heelan and 2 out of the 3 schools here it is the case. They don't recruit or have to when people just come willingly to be a part of something they want to be a part of excluding religion or academics in this case its athletics and it pisses people off that there little johnny football cant beat them so they gotta come up with excuses like recruiting and so on. HATERS HATE ON

 

[nwiaguy]

posted by ROMANGABRIEL

Tuition assistance = Scollie

How many Poverty level kids does Heelan have?
Special education?
Non English speaking

Public schools take all kids not just athletes and the affluent



The numbers of non English speaking or kids of Muslim decent that's right I said muslim decent at a catholic school, or African America, or African, Hispanic and Asian would shock the SH$^& out of you. I picked my daughter up from school today and if you saw all the different ethnic groups of students at this 1 catholic grade school in Sioux City itd shock a lot of people. There is Dr. in Sioux City who is Muslim and sends his kids to one of the catholic grade schools here and was on a waiting list to get them in because he said there was no way his kids were going to any of the public schools for a muslim to go to a catholic school is unheard of he said but it is better then the altenative. Any yes his kids are in athletics as well so in a few years everybody cant start talking about how they are not only recruiting but they are attempting to convert people as well. cant wait.
This post was edited on 11/19 6:52 PM by nwiaguy

 

[WyattEarp1]

I'll weigh in...Let me begin by saying I don't think private schools recruit. I don't think they do anything wrong. I don't think they do anything improper.

HOWEVER...they do have a distinct competitive advantage, and to suggest they don't is simply not being very objective in your thinking.

Although they don't recruit, they do attract students, athletes, musicians, etc, and anyone looking for "better". And when you put a 1A, 2A, or 3A sized private school in a metropolitan area (by Iowa Standards) it gives an incredible unlevel playing field. It gives them a population base to attract gifted student athletes / musicians, etc and assemble teams that are simply not under the same set of cicumstances as the public schools they're competing against.

I'll use Heelan as the example:

I'm sure it's a great school. I'm sure they do excellent things to help improverished students. I have no doubt that it's a great education. But that's my whole point. Because of its greatness, it attracts kids from various backgrounds in a population base of probably over 100,000. They attract many of the brightest, most talented kids in the area. Then they form sports teams and bands and math competition teams, and go play 3A schools. Those public school teams are comprised of kids from a town that probably has anywhere from 5,000-10,000 residents. Due to logistics, economy, jobs, location, open-enrollment rules, etc, those public schools have a school made up of the current residents. There are barriers to moving around, and attracting new students. Our 1A, 2A, and 3A public schools, which are single town schools, take what we can get for students.

So when a typical 3A school from a town of 6,782, faces Heelan, is it a fair match-up? Of course not. That's why using a multiplier, or another system of adjusting their enrollment, would make sense, and be fair.

Other examples are Xavier, Regina, Wahlert, CB St Alberts, etc