The old private school argument

[bigfridaynite]

I have a box full of letters in my attic sent to my kids from a private school.
So call it what ever you want to but they where sent to my house.

 

[BigHawk]

CruHawk

Ill bet you a Charlie Boy and a beverage of your choice that Jack is back at Heelan next fall. Maybe even sooner.

 

[long-may-u-run]

Originally posted by bigfridaynite:

I have a box full of letters in my attic sent to my kids from a private school.
So call it what ever you want to but they where sent to my house.

And your point is? And why would you save letter from private schools? Did they start getting them in the womb? We're they identified as superior athletes at the age of 5? Did the private school do genetic testing of your kids as well?

 

[CrusaderHawk]

Here is where the theory of a distinct competitive advantage is flawed. Heelan is a Catholic School. If every Catholic in Sioux City and the surrounding area ( let's just say 10 miles) were forced to go to Heelan because they were Catholic, I could concede your argument. Then, maybe, and only maybe, would I seem to think that a half size enrollment move would be appropriate. But we don't even come close to getting all of the Catholics in our system. I see all of the Catholic kids that go to church on Sunday that represent Sioux City East and Sgt Bluff as well as Lawton. And I am sure there are several I don't see. Going to Heelan or another Parocial school is a choice. It is not a must. Our tuition pays for teachers, technology, utilities, uniforms, instruments, and everything else. It is not tax payer based. So if you choose to go to Heelan you get all of the benefits and headaches that go with it. There is a cost. To add to this, someone in a previous post, mentioned #'s as far as roster size. Heelan has many multi-sport athletes. We HAVE to have these kids be multi-sport or we could not compete. The same kids who are playing football, also play basketball, run track, play baseball, and several also participate in choir, musicals and band. Girls athletics are the same way. Throw in volleyball, softball as well. They are not one sport athletes or specialize. And if they are, it is very few and far in between. Most of the football team are two way guys.
So if in fact we take away the parocial schools, these kids are now in the public school system. Correct ? Our public school system could not support this. Parocial school parents already pay property taxes to support the public schools. Now you have a mass influx of students coming into the public schools with no more revenue to handle them. And you also have all of these kids wanting to play athletics. So now you have more athletes competing for the same position as your little Johnnie. So I don't see the competitive advantage at all. We have talked about Cougill and Wegher, but what about Zach McCabe at Iowa. he was Multi-sport, and at some point was a helluva baseball player as well. But chose football and basketball and also a very good student. An all-state quarterback who also played defensive end his senior year. If that is an advantage to put your quarterback at defensive end and risk injury, it must be important.
To make another point, I cannot speak for any other school but Heelan and the small Catholic school I went to growing up. Our teachers were, and are, excellent. They work for peanuts, because they believe in a solid Catholic-faith based education. That is not meant to diminish the public school teachers or public school education in any way. But meant to try and tell you why we send our kids to the Catholic school in the first place.
One other thing and this has to do with the size of the city comment. LeMars is a 3A school. Town of about 8000-10000 people. Should Gehlen Catholic in LeMars ( a 1A school ) not be a school just because the town is smaller than Sioux City or Council Bluffs or Dubuque or Des Moines. I mean if you take away Gehlen, that might move LeMars Community into the 4A realm to compete against those same schools in those cities. Is that fair to them based on city size you so chose to use as an example. How come Regina is not in 4A ? Cedar Rapids is the second largest city in Iowa. They have to get all of the catholics in CR to go there right ? St Albert the same way.

 

[cruhawk]

Originally posted by WyattEarp1:

I'll weigh in...Let me begin by saying I don't think private schools recruit. I don't think they do anything wrong. I don't think they do anything improper.

HOWEVER...they do have a distinct competitive advantage, and to suggest they don't is simply not being very objective in your thinking.

Although they don't recruit, they do attract students, athletes, musicians, etc, and anyone looking for "better". And when you put a 1A, 2A, or 3A sized private school in a metropolitan area (by Iowa Standards) it gives an incredible unlevel playing field. It gives them a population base to attract gifted student athletes / musicians, etc and assemble teams that are simply not under the same set of cicumstances as the public schools they're competing against.

I'll use Heelan as the example:

I'm sure it's a great school. I'm sure they do excellent things to help improverished students. I have no doubt that it's a great education. But that's my whole point. Because of its greatness, it attracts kids from various backgrounds in a population base of probably over 100,000. They attract many of the brightest, most talented kids in the area. Then they form sports teams and bands and math competition teams, and go play 3A schools. Those public school teams are comprised of kids from a town that probably has anywhere from 5,000-10,000 residents. Due to logistics, economy, jobs, location, open-enrollment rules, etc, those public schools have a school made up of the current residents. There are barriers to moving around, and attracting new students. Our 1A, 2A, and 3A public schools, which are single town schools, take what we can get for students.

So when a typical 3A school from a town of 6,782, faces Heelan, is it a fair match-up? Of course not. That's why using a multiplier, or another system of adjusting their enrollment, would make sense, and be fair.

Other examples are Xavier, Regina, Wahlert, CB St Alberts, etc

I agree with almost everything you said, and have made the case quite often before, that schools like Heelan, et al, have an inherent advantage over many of their smaller town opponents. The teams they field often look more like 4A teams than 3A/2A, because they have access to that type of athlete.

I would disagree that private schools don't recruit; they do (though a lot less than just about everyone on this board would think). That is part of what they do, just like a college or university. Recruiting prospective students--whether they are athletes or not--is an integral part of any successful private school's operations. Someone here mentioned that SC East is a bigger Catholic school than Heelan, so I'm guessing that much of Heelan's recruiting efforts are centered around retrieving Catholic kids who are currently going to public schools. It's almost certain that when the new school starts to open, many of those kids--and many non-Catholics as well--will go back to Heelan. They do expect a good increase in numbers in the coming years. The new facility will certainly be big enough to accomodate many more than are at the current building.

 

[bigfridaynite]

Very good post CrusaderHawk
For long whatever it was
No my kids starting receiving letters about 13-14 years old just after attending basketball camps at this private school.

 

[cruhawk]

Originally posted by BigHawk:
CruHawk

Ill bet you a Charlie Boy and a beverage of your choice that Jack is back at Heelan next fall. Maybe even sooner.

That's certainly possible; maybe even probable. My info is strictly hearsay; I haven't heard anything concrete, like from a family member. If he wants to play QB at Heelan next year, he would get a chance....Solsma's a senior now. There was no way JW would have started over him this year. Even though Heelan will graduate several playmakers this year, they will return a pretty salty team in '14, with a lot of players in the current sophomore & junior classes making strong contributions now. He would have a heckuva supporting cast.

IMO, JW's major college future is at RB/WR, not QB. Unless he turns into a Kane Colter/Johnny Football type. Colter is 6-0, 195, and I don't Manziel is any bigger. So it is possible.

 

[cruhawk]

Originally posted by gohawks2011:

...Only at a Heelan event will you see athletes getting in and out of their vehicles with license plates from Iowa, Nebraska and South Dakota...

That's because Sioux City is located on the Iowa, Nebraska, South Dakota border. The metro area includes all three states. It's not like they're getting kids from Sioux Falls or Omaha.

 

[Blacksoxs]

Seems like every board has the same debate...here are my thoughts

Here's a little story that may shed some light on this never ending debate. In my opinion this is what gives the private schools an advantage in some sports. A few years back, Davenport Assumption had somewhere around 50 boys in an incoming Freshman class. Of those 50, they had over 35 that played freshman baseball...which obviously has a great tradition at Assumption.

You usually don't see that high of a percentage at a public school (35/50). The person I was talking to also said a high percentage of students were involved in multiple other extracurricular activities. I would be willing to bet that there is a higher percentage of students involved in extracurricular activities at a private school compared to a public school. Public schools are more likely to have kids in school that do not do anything but attend classes.

Look at it from football terms. A private 2A school and a public 2A school in football would have somewhere around 35-40 boys in each grade to choose from for football. Of those numbers, I would argue that a private school would have a slight edge in the number of those boys who are interested and/or capable of playing football....the extra numbers help give private schools an advantage.


Obviously, success of a program has a lot to do with this, so you have to give the coaches credit for running a successful program (Regina, CK, Heelan, Dowling). Success of a program leads to more community support and/or more parent support for all the other things that go with that sport (lifting, camps, fundraising). Also, success of a program leads to more people wanting to be apart of it....which is why you see successful public and private schools around the state getting more "new faces" then others.

To sum it up...private schools can have an advantage number wise. Ultimately, it is what you do with those numbers that really matters.

 

[cruhawk]

Originally posted by bigfridaynite:

In fact I think a Team like Heelan will bring out the best in Washington Just like it did Decorah and Solon in the past.

This post was edited on 11/18 3:32 PM by bigfridaynite

Heelan almost always gets every opponents best shot; it's not like they're not used to it. Hopefully this time around, instead of being the one with a target on their back, they'll put the target on the other teams back, and become the hunters instead of the hunted.

FYI, Heelan has been looking forward to this game since the moment they were given the second place trophy in the Dome last year.

 

[bigfridaynite]

Ya Heelan is loaded no doubt and this group of kids will of played 4 of there last 16 games in the dome so Washington has a whole lot to over come but that's why they play the game.

 

[WyattEarp1]

Crusaderhawk:

I very deliberately NEVER said the word Catholic (or Christian, or parochial) in my entire argument. My word was private. When a private school operates in a metro area, they simply have access to a whole lot more kids than rural towns do. It's pretty hard to dispute that. It's pretty much math.

As I understand it, Heelan takes kids that come from any demonination. That's great. All the more reason that they have access to a whole lot of kids to attract to their school.

And I don't really understand your point about multi sport athletes. Are you suggesting that same need doesn't exist at a rural 3A school? Of course it does.

And your Gehlen argument? Don't really understand it either. I never suggested private schools shouldn't exist. I said they have a competitive advantage over their same-size public schools because they can attract from a bigger pool. This is not an argument about abolishing private schools. If there was a Christian school in my community, my kids would attend it. This is simply an argument that due to their ability to attract from a larger pool of students, they should be classified in a larger group through the IHSAA and IGHSAU. Examples include playing up one class, multiplying the BEDS by 1.5 or 1.7, etc.

 

[matomicmasher]

The biggest problem is that all of the good athletes go to catholic schools. Public schools are left with the wretched refuse. Public schools should just give up on athletics.

 

[long-may-u-run]

Originally posted by bigfridaynite:

Very good post CrusaderHawk
For long whatever it was
No my kids starting receiving letters about 13-14 years old just after attending basketball camps at this private school.

Of course they did. And you saved them why? So you could claim your kids were recruited? I could give you a long list of names of public school kids who ended up at another public school after playing aau ball, camps etc. can you give me examples of public school athletes recruited by private schools? Other than your kids of course. How about we move the private schools up a class and then have the state give tax rebates to parents who choose to send their kids to private schools in the amount of per student cost to taxpayers so those parents don't have to pay twice. Fair enough? And when the private schools still win.....what then?

 

[Hogan1964]

WyattEarp.....as a Heelan parent, I agree with you 100 percent that private schools have an inherent advantage especially in a metro area. It's simple math really. You articulated the points very well.
What chaps Catholics is when we get accused of recruiting kids just because of athletics.....which actually happens much less than people think....the vast majority of our kids playing tonight have been in the system K?12.
East high school recruits a lot more than we do, especially in basketball and that's fine....we love the folks at East. They are good people and fun rivals to PLAY against.
Just wanted to let you know I appreciated your articulated thoughts.

 

[bigfridaynite]

I've said it all a long all schools recruit public and private its not that painful to admit.
The only difference is its legal for one and not for the other one.
This post was edited on 11/21 9:41 AM by bigfridaynite

 

[PNation]

I have said it on here many times, it isn't that parochial schools recruit, I am sure that some do, but that isn't the big issue. The issue is the student body population that they are given, Heelan has approximately 525 students in its high school, some years a few more some a few less. Out of those 525 I would guess that 90-95% of those are involved in at least one activity that doesn't mean sports it means speech, drama, choir, band, whatever. Most of these are probably involved in multiple activities. So that is 475-500 kids at Heelan who are involved in something.

At a typical public school you rarely see participation rates above 60% especially the larger the school you go, and socioeconomic factors have a lot to do with that as well. Most small public schools in Iowa have higher rates just based upon the students ability to be on the team and play not being so dependent on talent. I would guess that most 3A and 4A public schools in Iowa are around 45-50% participation so for a public school to get the same number of kids out for activities they would need a high school enrollment of around 1000 kids which for 10-12 numbers that would be 750 which is a 4A school.

These numbers are estimations, but I would bet they are pretty close to the truth.

Parochial schools also don't deal with the trouble makers, but that is why parents send their children to these schools.

 

[tdemoss]

Do private schools offer LD, BD and special education classes? Are students utilizing those classes counted in BEDS numbers for public schools?

 

[WyattEarp1]

Hogan-

Thanks. As I said, I think private schools are great. If there was one here, my kids would attend it.

But due to the advantage I believe they have, they should not be classified simply by enrollment. I feel there should be some sort of adjustment or multiplier made.

Long-may-u-run -

I agree 100% that those who pay tuition to a private school should have some tax credit or break. (But I don't see how that in any way evens out the unlevel playing field. In fact it would only add to their advantage because they may gain more students due to the credit )

 

[SoDakHawk]

Thoughts from a Heelan grad.

- Heelan has always been accused of recruiting. The reality is it doesn't happen. Most of the kids in high school have been in the Catholic grade school system since kindergarten.

- Of course Heelan has kids that go to school there from Nebraska and SD. Because a kid is from St. Mike's in South Sioux City they shouldn't be allowed to cross the river to go to school? I'll never understand that complaint.

- I remember my freshman year. This was back in the 4A days and almost every boy went out for football. Two full freshman teams, a complete sophomore team of mostly one way players, and a varsity team of about 70 with players only going one way. Beginning of the school year a bunch of names of freshman boys were called over the PA to report to Rm 318 (Dean's office). They were told to meet at the second floor study hall (Rm 201?) after school. There they were asked what extra-curricular activity they were planning on participating in. Didn't matter if was basketball, track, band, debate, swing choir, what were you going to do to contribute to this school because you aren't just just coming here for class only. That was the mentality when I was at Heelan and I'm sure some of that still remains today. Sorry if your school isn't like that. Maybe those schools should work towards increasing participation numbers, it would probably help strengthen the school all around.

- Grew up in Morningside and had friends at East. They always complained that if the kids from IC and Nativity (Morningsiders) would have gone to East then they could have won state football as seniors. I commented back that if all the Catholics on the East High team that are from the IC/Nativity parishes would go to Heelan then we would State every year. They had to agree with that. See, it works both ways.

- I hope with the construction of the new school the enrollment jumps and we can return to 4A. Talk to alumns that went there when it was 4A and they don't like that we've dropped down to 3A. I understand the reasons why but I don't like it. I think Heelan teams right now, in 3A, are good enough to compete for 4A titles. Certainly good enough to beat the 4A schools in SC as has been demonstrated every year.

 

[PNation]

Beginning of the school year a bunch of names of
freshman boys were called over the PA to report to Rm 318 (Dean's
office). They were told to meet at the second floor study hall (Rm
201?) after school. There they were asked what extra-curricular
activity they were planning on participating in. Didn't matter if was
basketball, track, band, debate, swing choir, what were you going to do
to contribute to this school because you aren't just just coming here
for class only. That was the mentality when I was at Heelan and I'm
sure some of that still remains today. Sorry if your school isn't like
that. Maybe those schools should work towards increasing participation
numbers, it would probably help strengthen the school all around.


If a public school did this there would be lawsuits from parents who thought their child was being bullied into an activity. But I do agree with you that participation strengthens the school all the way around, on average students out for activities have a GPA 0.60 higher and miss 10 less days of school a year.

 

[SoDakHawk]

PNation-

It was a different time that unfortunately has passed on. I wish schools could still do things like that because it helps in building a well rounded student and person having them involved in activities. The point is the culture of participation exists at Heelan. I'm sure that same culture it exists in many 3A small towns across Iowa. There is a reason a town like Harlan is always in the mix, because the town and the school has a culture of participation and winning.

 

[PNation]

No doubt, I agree with you on everything you say. But like I said a student at a parochial school is more likely to be involved somehow. I just wish as a culture our youth would go back to valuing things like athletics, fine arts, and doing well in school, instead of video games, junk food, and illegal activities. I am not trying to stereotype all of the youth because there are some great kids out there, but things that were important in the past don't seem to have the same standing today.