Possible Teams Dropping or Going up?

[notlongago]

Wrong Damian Sawvel graduated in 2016 and he was not there all through high school. He went to Clarksville and so did his brother Wyatt.

Check your dates, they were at bosco in 2012 and the older one was a freshman on the first 8man team. His brother was on the team 2 years later, both played their entire prep career at bosco, so not sure who you are thinking of. Before they showed up, Bosco was 22-52 in football. 1 playoff appearance, 2 winless seasons, 2 8-loss seasons, 2 6-loss seasons and a 6-3 sprinkled in. Can't really recruit with that pitch can ya?

 

[IowaHawkeyeFBnBB4Life]

Sidney can't compete in 8 man currently. 11 man would be very bad.

 

[Viking5k]

To be real, if you look back, not a lot of players have come into the Bosco system later. Of course you have Ohrt coming from Jesup for his senior year. In reality, what is recruiting? Pasive or aggresive, with open enrollment, anyone can go anywhere. It just seems like Bosco always has the kids that are 6' 2" and can run like gazelles.

The item I want to point out is that private schools do not have to accept everyone that wants to go to their school. I know there are private school students who have never had a special needs student in their classrooms, because they cost a lot money. Public schools are required to take these students and give equal education. If you are a private school and special needs kids, more power to you. Does this keep Bosco's BEDs from going to class A? Probably not, but it does influence them.

When I look around our public school and see want families move in and what students we have to deal with, it is frustrating. Sorry, but that low functioning autistic kid is still be counted on our BEDs. But at least I know they have a chance with us. Sometimes the leveling of the field is not at the sports level, it is at the government level.

 

[notlongago]

Does this keep Bosco's BEDs from going to class A? Probably not, but it does influence them.

You'd better have concrete proof this is true before you go accusing schools of being discrimitory against special needs students/families.

 

[Smokinfr1blue7]

Don Bosco also has the highest percentage of male students in the state when considering schools with enrollment over 100. Over 60% male students. The bottom part of their roster would start for alot of schools. Roster size doesn't matter if you get to cut the bottom end off and bring in better athletes. Public schools can't have those discussions with kids from other schools.

For those who don't believe roster size doesn't play a part in success you should take a look at the statistics. At least in the bottom two leagues. It has more effect than beds numbers. Program success is a crutch for larger school proponents. 8 man schools have a much higher participation percentage than class A. So program success isn't the driving factor in roster size overall.

 

[CalmHawk]

I think the overall difference from a successful program to an unsuccessful program is the mindset of being a winner or a loser. Everyone wants to be a winning team and say they are apart of that and who wants to be part of a losing team. Just think about that. You ask yourself how does a team like Bosco become good or stay on top... It's their mindset that comes from a very successful wrestling program all those years and with the support system, they have from the community and staff. Of course, you will have some teams that don't have successful other programs but how many of them are a good year in and out. Every coach and schools wants to find the ingredients that Bosco has and it is not recruiting if so their numbers would be going up and up. You look through there line up and most if not all their kids went through their system. Just my two cents

OK, How about don Bosco keeps everything like the coaches and all, but only get to have kids from Gilbertville in their program. Nothing outside of it....... how would that look for them?

 

[1hawks1]

If Bosco removes the kids that come from the surrounding area of Gilbertville. Then Bosco wouldn’t be able to stay open as a school

 

[notlongago]

OK, How about don Bosco keeps everything like the coaches and all, but only get to have kids from Gilbertville in their program. Nothing outside of it....... how would that look for them?

Would it make you feel better if they changed their name to GRJ Catholic?

 

[CalmHawk]

Would it make you feel better if they changed their name to GRJ Catholic?

So none of their players are from Waterloo? They are all within district? How do all those people pay in that town?

 

[CalmHawk]

If Bosco removes the kids that come from the surrounding area of Gilbertville. Then Bosco wouldn’t be able to stay open as a school

That is exactly my point

 

[Panther24Pride]

This thread is filled with such smart and brilliant people. You have all the points and all the facts and solutions - I congratulate you on that great feat! Now, can you please stop beating the same old worn-out drum when it is convenient?

Thanks and feel free to come hang out and watch some football next week when two really good teams battle for the state championship! You might learn a thing or two...

 

[notlongago]

So none of their players are from Waterloo? They are all within district? How do all those people pay in that town?

Well, since the Waterloo city limits actually touch the Gilbertville city limits in parts, i can't say either way. But Waterloo the city has its own catholic high school, so I would be comfortable saying the number of city kids is minimal to zero. And let's not forget, Bosco is a Catholic school first and foremost - there are parents in gville and surrounding communities that don't want their kids in a Catholic school - so since gville kids can go to public school in Waterloo, doesn't it make sense surrounding Catholic kids should get to go to gville?

 

[CalmHawk]

Well, since the Waterloo city limits actually touch the Gilbertville city limits in parts, i can't say either way. But Waterloo the city has its own catholic high school, so I would be comfortable saying the number of city kids is minimal to zero. And let's not forget, Bosco is a Catholic school first and foremost - there are parents in gville and surrounding communities that don't want their kids in a Catholic school - so since gville kids can go to public school in Waterloo, doesn't it make sense surrounding Catholic kids should get to go to gville?

Then how are they 8 man? I do not get that at all. You have the town in the district of Waterloo..... Waterloo is one of the 10th largest school districts and Iowa, and Don Bosco is 8 man..... totally level playing field right there. Why do they not play at the same level as the other Catholic school in the Waterloo district?

 

[NWIAorBUST]

Gilbertville is in the Waterloo district because what other school district would bus to there? Everywhere has to have a public school boundary - the catholic school has nothing to do with it. The school is still in Gilbertville which is 10 miles away from Waterloo. Just like Gehlen is in LeMars' school district and RSM is in the Remsen-Union portion of the MMCRU district. But unlike Gehlen who is in a bigger town - Don Bosco is in a small town, alone. They probably do pull some people from Waterloo and surrounding small communities as there are quite a few around it but that's what parochial schools do. Look @ Western in the northwest corner. They get people from all over the place. No one complains about the parochial schools that are not winning. Only when they win does it become unfair.

 

[notlongago]

(1)Then how are they 8 man? I do not get that at all. (2)Why do they not play at the same level as the other Catholic school in the Waterloo district?

(1) Because their enrollment is like 100 kids 9-12
(2) Because their enrollment is like 100 kids 9-12

How is this so hard to comprehend? Thats like asking why Waterloo columbus doesnt play 4A with East & West - theyre in the same district after all right?

 

[CalmHawk]

(1) Because their enrollment is like 100 kids 9-12
(2) Because their enrollment is like 100 kids 9-12

How is this so hard to comprehend? Thats like asking why Waterloo columbus doesnt play 4A with East & West - theyre in the same district after all right?

They have the 10th highest district to pick though and approve kids in the state, no other 8 man school can say that. What other Class A school like that drops down to 8 man and stays there? They should have no problem winning championships with a population base of over 70,000 kids are within 10 miles of campus. Do you think Grandview Christian was good for 1A basketball?

 

[notlongago]

They have the 10th highest district to pick though and approve kids in the state, no other 8 man school can say that. What other Class A school like that drops down to 8 man and stays there? They should have no problem winning championships with a population base of over 70,000 kids are within 10 miles of campus. Do you think Grandview Christian was good for 1A basketball?

What are you talking about? Theyre in a town w/ a population of ~750 as well as Raymond, which is about the same. Waterloo catholic kids are served by Waterloo Columbus (and again I ask, why wouldn't you say Columbus should play 4A since they are literally in the same city as 4A east waterloo and 4a west waterloo?)
What other school goes 8-Man and stays there? A whole helluva lot of them.

 

[CalmHawk]

What are you talking about? Theyre in a town w/ a population of ~750 as well as Raymond, which is about the same. Waterloo catholic kids are served by Waterloo Columbus (and again I ask, why wouldn't you say Columbus should play 4A since they are literally in the same city as 4A east waterloo and 4a west waterloo?)
What other school goes 8-Man and stays there? A whole helluva lot of them.

Isnt Raymond and Gilbertville in the Waterloo school district? As in they go to Waterloo for school? or am I totally off base. A quick google search shows that Gilbertville is within the Waterloo school district.

Also, I am fine with Catholic schools in big towns playing 1A or above for football, but 8 man football, with that population base, is cheating the system. Just look at how well they have done since moving down. Other 8 man schools do not have the population base to maintain a championship level team like that year in and year out just simply do to class sizes and population. When you can recruit or pick 8 kids that play football from a district the size of Waterloo you get those results.

I may be way off base with Gilbertville and Raymond being in the Waterloo school district, please let me know what public school serves those towns.

 

[NWIAorBUST]

Isnt Raymond and Gilbertville in the Waterloo school district? As in they go to Waterloo for school? or am I totally off base. A quick google search shows that Gilbertville is within the Waterloo school district.

Also, I am fine with Catholic schools in big towns playing 1A or above for football, but 8 man football, with that population base, is cheating the system. Just look at how well they have done since moving down. Other 8 man schools do not have the population base to maintain a championship level team like that year in and year out just simply do to class sizes and population. When you can recruit or pick 8 kids that play football from a district the size of Waterloo you get those results.

I may be way off base with Gilbertville and Raymond being in the Waterloo school district, please let me know what public school serves those towns.

If you'd read literally 4 posts above you'd see that they are.

 

[Jayhawkin]

Now that each class is down to the finals, has any district started the process of looking at moving up/down? I do believe most enrollments had to be certified by the end of October, so districts are well aware of where they would be slotted based on the 120 line (give or take a few i know). Some of the more interesting situations will be what the state does with Sidney, the small parochial schools like Gehlen/Garrigan/Newman (Yes I have been reading above, for the love of this thread let's just move on. This is getting "West Branch/Regina silly), and some traditionally competitive 11 man teams like Lynville S and Nashau P. As someone stated above before this got off topic, 2 classes of 8 man probably isn't on the table yet, as the playoff format and structure are under a microscope again (Read recent CR Gazette) but I do think it would be next in line once the playoff situation is settled.

 

[CalmHawk]

Now that each class is down to the finals, has any district started the process of looking at moving up/down? I do believe most enrollments had to be certified by the end of October, so districts are well aware of where they would be slotted based on the 120 line (give or take a few i know). Some of the more interesting situations will be what the state does with Sidney, the small parochial schools like Gehlen/Garrigan/Newman (Yes I have been reading above, for the love of this thread let's just move on. This is getting "West Branch/Regina silly), and some traditionally competitive 11 man teams like Lynville S and Nashau P. As someone stated above before this got off topic, 2 classes of 8 man probably isn't on the table yet, as the playoff format and structure are under a microscope again (Read recent CR Gazette) but I do think it would be next in line once the playoff situation is settled.

Schools have until November 25th to determine what they are doing.

 

[hawkeyetillidie]

If I ran a program like DB, running shop on schools week in and week out. Personally it would get boring. I would always wonder how well we could do in 11 man. Comparing it to a boxer. Dominate in one weight class, move up or down to see if the dominance continues. There are some really bad teams in 8-man football. Personally I wouldn't find it very fun crushing terrible football teams week in and week out.

 

[IGo42]

How many of the Don Bosco football starters weren't going to Don Bosco two years ago?
I don't know the answer for sure, but I've been told that Tenold, Tenold, Ohrt, and Even are from other schools??? Is that true?

 

[notlongago]

How many of the Don Bosco football starters weren't going to Don Bosco two years ago?
I don't know the answer for sure, but I've been told that Tenold, Tenold, Ohrt, and Even are from other schools??? Is that true?

No. That's almost as good as the rumor that Bosco was taking out newspaper ads in Northwest Iowa looking for football players.

 

[notlongago]

Isnt Raymond and Gilbertville in the Waterloo school district? As in they go to Waterloo for school? or am I totally off base. A quick google search shows that Gilbertville is within the Waterloo school district.

Also, I am fine with Catholic schools in big towns playing 1A or above for football, but 8 man football, with that population base, is cheating the system. Just look at how well they have done since moving down. Other 8 man schools do not have the population base to maintain a championship level team like that year in and year out just simply do to class sizes and population. When you can recruit or pick 8 kids that play football from a district the size of Waterloo you get those results.

I may be way off base with Gilbertville and Raymond being in the Waterloo school district, please let me know what public school serves those towns.

Again, you're forgetting Waterloo has 2 4A public schools and a ~2A Catholic school (to serve the Waterloo catholics). You're acting as if though there's a 70,000 person population that doesn't have any other schooling option .
Bosco serves the rural, gilbertville, Raymond, and jesup Catholics. Been that way for the past 40 years. For the 3rd time - if what you are saying we're true, then Columbus , by virtue of being literally in the city, would never lose.

 

[OldKnights]

How many of the Don Bosco football starters weren't going to Don Bosco two years ago?
I don't know the answer for sure, but I've been told that Tenold, Tenold, Ohrt, and Even are from other schools??? Is that true?

I do not have a horse in this race but here is what I know from a DB parent who is a good friend. He won't post on this site so I will. Hopefully this will stop some of the confusion regarding the team and school.

Even been in system since 5th grade (FYI - His Mom and Even Grandparents are DB Grads), Tenold's moved to town four years ago. Ohrt moved to town last year.

13 of the kids on the roster live in town, another 13 live within 1-6 miles of town and none live in the City of Waterloo which is 10 miles away. The majority of the students at DB have been in the system since preschool and are 2nd, 3rd or possibly 4th generation kids of DB families.

There has never been a public school in Gilbertville or Raymond. There are no rural route Gilbertville or Raymond addresses.

The cities of Gilbertville & Raymond are in the Waterloo School District. If you live in Gilbertville or Raymond you go to the East Waterloo schools, if you live West of Gilbertville you go to West Waterloo and have a Waterloo address, if you live South of Gilbertville you are in the Union School District and have a La Porte City address, if you live East of Gilbertville you are in the Jesup School District and have a Jesup address, if you live North of Raymond you are in the Dunkerton School District and have a Dunkerton address. If you do not live in Raymond or Gilbertville and live between these 2 towns and Waterloo you will have a Waterloo address. Hope this stops some of the confusion.

 

[OldKnights]

Again, you're forgetting Waterloo has 2 4A public schools and a ~2A Catholic school (to serve the Waterloo catholics). You're acting as if though there's a 70,000 person population that doesn't have any other schooling option .
Bosco serves the rural, gilbertville, Raymond, and jesup Catholics. Been that way for the past 40 years. For the 3rd time - if what you are saying we're true, then Columbus , by virtue of being literally in the city, would never lose.

Don't forget that about Valley Lutheran & Waterloo Christian School.

 

[CalmHawk]

No. That's almost as good as the rumor that Bosco was taking out newspaper ads in Northwest Iowa looking for football players.

Obviously I have an opinion on this against DB, but that is a crazy rumor.

 

[PNation]

If I ran a program like DB, running shop on schools week in and week out. Personally it would get boring. I would always wonder how well we could do in 11 man. Comparing it to a boxer. Dominate in one weight class, move up or down to see if the dominance continues. There are some really bad teams in 8-man football. Personally I wouldn't find it very fun crushing terrible football teams week in and week out.

This is kind of my feeling, I would think that it would be boring for Don Bosco to continually destroy teams week after week. Why not try 11 man football, I believe they have 36 players on their quikstats roster, most years they have over 40, that is enough for a Varsity and JV team at the 11 man level.

I do know I have heard (from fans) teams that they usually play in the regular season, that there were schools thinking about just forfeiting to them in the hopes that they only got to play like 3 regular season games, which in turn would greatly hurt their program.

Also to be fair I think that there are other 8 man teams who usually have over 35 players out that I think should be playing 11 man not just Don Bosco.

 

[CalmHawk]

I do not have a horse in this race but here is what I know from a DB parent who is a good friend. He won't post on this site so I will. Hopefully this will stop some of the confusion regarding the team and school.

Even been in system since 5th grade (FYI - His Mom and Even Grandparents are DB Grads), Tenold's moved to town four years ago. Ohrt moved to town last year.

13 of the kids on the roster live in town, another 13 live within 1-6 miles of town and none live in the City of Waterloo which is 10 miles away. The majority of the students at DB have been in the system since preschool and are 2nd, 3rd or possibly 4th generation kids of DB families.

There has never been a public school in Gilbertville or Raymond. There are no rural route Gilbertville or Raymond addresses.

The cities of Gilbertville & Raymond are in the Waterloo School District. If you live in Gilbertville or Raymond you go to the East Waterloo schools, if you live West of Gilbertville you go to West Waterloo and have a Waterloo address, if you live South of Gilbertville you are in the Union School District and have a La Porte City address, if you live East of Gilbertville you are in the Jesup School District and have a Jesup address, if you live North of Raymond you are in the Dunkerton School District and have a Dunkerton address. If you do not live in Raymond or Gilbertville and live between these 2 towns and Waterloo you will have a Waterloo address. Hope this stops some of the confusion.

This is where I get irritated because if they have 26 within the those lines as you say, why do they need to have an extra 10 kids, and not from the area? In the game of 8 man that is a huge advantage. I am not against 3-4 generational kids going to the school at all, but when you can peck who you want in 8 man football it is a huge advantage. All you need is 5-6 really good athletes per grade to dominate. Not hard to see how there is an advantage here.

I know public schools can do this recruiting game too, and know they do it, but by playing 8 man football and dominating it since coming down looks bad to an outsider. when you have 80 for BEDs and have been to the quarterfinals 7 out of the 8 years being in 8 man football. It is such a clear advantage.

 

[notlongago]

This is where I get irritated because if they have 26 within the those lines as you say, why do they need to have an extra 10 kids, and not from the area? In the game of 8 man that is a huge advantage. I am not against 3-4 generational kids going to the school at all, but when you can peck who you want in 8 man football it is a huge advantage. All you need is 5-6 really good athletes per grade to dominate. Not hard to see how there is an advantage here.

I know public schools can do this recruiting game too, and know they do it, but by playing 8 man football and dominating it since coming down looks bad to an outsider. when you have 80 for BEDs and have been to the quarterfinals 7 out of the 8 years being in 8 man football. It is such a clear advantage.

It sounds like whatever parameters Bosco falls under, you're going to be against. BEDS? irrelevant. Roster size? Now 36 is too much? (Mind you, they had over 50 and went 0-9 at one point). What exactly, in your opinion, should be the qualifications to play 8man?

And for the love of anything good, (everyone) stop acting like class A (and 1A for that matter) is some mecca of football that is a huge jump up in class and skill. Year in and year out, the level of play in these 3 classes is roughly equal. Put the 12 semifinalists in a round robin tourney and none is going to stand out for the most part.
And to preemptively answer your next question of "if it's so similar, why don't they move?" Simple asnwer is the 8 man game better suits them and their enrollment at this point in time. 8 man is less affected by injury and allows them to develop younger talent with real game experience. Why handicap themselves by spreading an average to small roster (by A and 1A standards) thinner?

 

[privateer13]

11 man and 8 man are not comparable. Success at one does not mean success at the other. It would be a huge challenge for DB to have the same success at the 11 man level, not saying they couldn't but it would be a challenge. DB qualifies at 8 man and can choose what is best for their program. Is there another school who has chosen to go to 11 after success or is it until the state kicks them up a class? I don't know any school who has voluntarily went up a class because they have had a lot of success. There are teams who haven't dropped to 8 man because of the stigma but nobody volunteers to jump up a class.

 

[screwloose]

For clarification, Waterloo East is a 3A school, not 4A.

 

[player97]

I do not have a horse in this race but here is what I know from a DB parent who is a good friend. He won't post on this site so I will. Hopefully this will stop some of the confusion regarding the team and school.

Even been in system since 5th grade (FYI - His Mom and Even Grandparents are DB Grads), Tenold's moved to town four years ago. Ohrt moved to town last year.

13 of the kids on the roster live in town, another 13 live within 1-6 miles of town and none live in the City of Waterloo which is 10 miles away. The majority of the students at DB have been in the system since preschool and are 2nd, 3rd or possibly 4th generation kids of DB families.

There has never been a public school in Gilbertville or Raymond. There are no rural route Gilbertville or Raymond addresses.

The cities of Gilbertville & Raymond are in the Waterloo School District. If you live in Gilbertville or Raymond you go to the East Waterloo schools, if you live West of Gilbertville you go to West Waterloo and have a Waterloo address, if you live South of Gilbertville you are in the Union School District and have a La Porte City address, if you live East of Gilbertville you are in the Jesup School District and have a Jesup address, if you live North of Raymond you are in the Dunkerton School District and have a Dunkerton address. If you do not live in Raymond or Gilbertville and live between these 2 towns and Waterloo you will have a Waterloo address. Hope this stops some of the confusion.

Even lives nowhere close to 6 miles from Gville.

 

[CalmHawk]

It sounds like whatever parameters Bosco falls under, you're going to be against. BEDS? irrelevant. Roster size? Now 36 is too much? (Mind you, they had over 50 and went 0-9 at one point). What exactly, in your opinion, should be the qualifications to play 8man?

And for the love of anything good, (everyone) stop acting like class A (and 1A for that matter) is some mecca of football that is a huge jump up in class and skill. Year in and year out, the level of play in these 3 classes is roughly equal. Put the 12 semifinalists in a round robin tourney and none is going to stand out for the most part.
And to preemptively answer your next question of "if it's so similar, why don't they move?" Simple asnwer is the 8 man game better suits them and their enrollment at this point in time. 8 man is less affected by injury and allows them to develop younger talent with real game experience. Why handicap themselves by spreading an average to small roster (by A and 1A standards) thinner?

When did they have over 50 kids and go 0-9? It is not in 8 man. and yes, 36 kids is a lot for 8 man football. You are basically 4 deep at each position. Similar schools with that BED number have maybe 20 kids average. Look it up if you do not believe me.

Most A, 1A rosters have 35-40 kids, much like Don Bosco.

 

[CalmHawk]

11 man and 8 man are not comparable. Success at one does not mean success at the other. It would be a huge challenge for DB to have the same success at the 11 man level, not saying they couldn't but it would be a challenge. DB qualifies at 8 man and can choose what is best for their program. Is there another school who has chosen to go to 11 after success or is it until the state kicks them up a class? I don't know any school who has voluntarily went up a class because they have had a lot of success. There are teams who haven't dropped to 8 man because of the stigma but nobody volunteers to jump up a class.

8 man started in 2000, and no team with a BEDs of 80-85 kids has been in the quarterfinals 7/8 years running. That is a crazy stat.

 

[privateer13]

8 man started in 2000, and no team with a BEDs of 80-85 kids has been in the quarterfinals 7/8 years running. That is a crazy stat.

Agreed. What can you do? Whatever rule you make to force them up will effect other teams who haven't had the success. Right now based on enrollment they are where they qualify for. They could volunteer to move up but that is their choice, which nobody has ever done at any level. You can change it based on roster size but that effects other teams and who will stop teams from "cutting" kids and putting them on a "practice squad" or something else. Even if you made a modifier for a private school it wouldn't move them up. I don't think you can build in success modifier and force other 8 men teams up to 11, if they don't have the roster to play 11. So again what can you do other than gripe?

 

[CalmHawk]

Agreed. What can you do? Whatever rule you make to force them up will effect other teams who haven't had the success. Right now based on enrollment they are where they qualify for. They could volunteer to move up but that is their choice, which nobody has ever done at any level. You can change it based on roster size but that effects other teams and who will stop teams from "cutting" kids and putting them on a "practice squad" or something else. Even if you made a modifier for a private school it wouldn't move them up. I don't think you can build in success modifier and force other 8 men teams up to 11, if they don't have the roster to play 11. So again what can you do other than gripe?

Make it be known that a Private Catholic school within the boarders of a top 10 population public school district is playing 8 man football simply to win championships.

My proposal would be to not let private schools over 50 BEDs play 8 man football. I think Don Bosco has proven why. No matter what, they will always be in the playoffs. with a BEDs of 80 and averaging 39 players per year since starting 8 man...... public schools with the BEDs of 80 do not have an average of 39 players 8 years in a row for football. I am allowed to point that out here. and my frustration will be more private schools will do this soon because of the level of success Don Bosco has had. No idea why you would need to move down to 8 man with 39 kids playing per year other than simply wanting to have a chance to win a championship year in and year out because they were not winning at the A level like that.

 

[CalmHawk]

Another fun fact using the information on quikstats (which might be incorrect, but it is what I have in front of me), before DB dropped down to 8 man they did average about 25 kids for 11 man for 5 years, they somehow got that to bump up to 43 the year before they go to 8 man.

What I am asking is how does a school that averaged 25 kids for 5 years all of a sudden putting an average of 39 out there for 8 years in a row? How is that possible? Drop to 8 man and your numbers go up by 14 players per year, usually if people are dropping down it is because the population and roster is decreasing.........

 

[NWIAorBUST]

Is there another 8 man private school between DB's 80 and 120 BEDS that plays 8-man? I don't think so but I don't know for sure. Regardless it sounds like a Don Bosco rule you want put into place because you're tired of seeing them win. I have no reason to like DB either but I think this is getting a little out of hand and we're beating a dead horse.