Possible Teams Dropping or Going up?

Discussion in '8-Man Football Forum' started by Case I H, Oct 11, 2019.

  1. Case I H

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    Sidney and Iowa Valley are both above the limit, so they could head up to Class A. Teams at or below the limit that could come down include:

    Nashua-Plainfield
    Riverside
    GMG
    Gehlen Catholic
    BGM
    North Tama
    Garrigan
    Lynnville-Sully
    Newman Catholic

    I know North Mahaska wants to go down, but they are currently just above the cutoff
     
  2. CalmHawk

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    If they all go down ( I do not think they will ) they there should be a private school provision. No reason a private school needs to drop down to 8 man football ever. Garrigan and Gehlen Catholic would dominate year in and year out, it would be private schools in the finals every year for 8 man. Don Bosco, St. Mary, Garrigan, Newman, Gehlen..... It is not beneficial. Also, St. Alberts is not far off either. would not surprise me to see them drop down if they could as they are not to competitive in 11 man the last few years.

    OK I will get off the soap box.

    Sidney has been over the limit for 4 years and would be required to go up if they do not meet the 120 cutoff.
     
  3. NWIAorBUST

    NWIAorBUST Freshman
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    You're saying you'd have RSM with a 50~ BEDS play up to 11 man?
     
  4. CalmHawk

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    When you have BEDS of 50ish and have 30 or more on the sideline you can play 11 man football. Their dominance the last few years is also in direct correlation with RU going with MMC and kids that used to go to RU staying put in the community, especially the athletes. (I kinda know alot about RSM and I really like them as a community and school and all that stuff, but it is not hard to do the math either).
     
  5. NWIAorBUST

    NWIAorBUST Freshman
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    25 on their quikstats which isn't an outrageous number for 8 man and they have had recent success for sure and in the early 2000's but moving them to 11 man isn't for them. They had plenty of years they weren't special too. I don't disagree with any of the arguments about parochial schools and their advantages but I don't think RSM fits that mold of needing to be bumped up. NW Iowa 8 man isn't what it used to be.
     
  6. CalmHawk

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    No I can agree there, but look at public schools with those BEDs and tell me how effective their programs are. I think 50 is right about where it needs to be for these private schools and 8 man football. and I also consider the population on St. Mary (Remsen and surrounding area)

    vs
    LeMars for Gehlen
    Algona for Garrigan
    Council Bluffs St. Alberts
    Don Bosco has Waterloo within like 8 miles
    Mason City for Newman

    I mean come on Iowa, schools from big populations like that do not need to play 8 man. I can see St. Mary as the exception to be honest.
     
  7. NWIAorBUST

    NWIAorBUST Freshman
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    I'm all for a population multiplier.
     
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  8. PNation

    PNation Varsity
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    Some of those that you have below the cutoff will be above 120 for next year, I do know a couple of them had a really small senior class that will be replaced by a bigger class. You can never be 100% sure with kids moving but I will say that a few will not be below.

    I am interested on if the state sticks to their statement that they will make a school above 120 move, because there should be a few 8 man schools also above that number.
     
  9. CalmHawk

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    You can do a 2 cycle waiver to stay in 8 man to play. I know Sydney is a team that was above for 4 years but were allowed to stay. If they are above this year there should be no way to waiver to stay. I have been wrong before.
     
  10. CalmHawk

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    Also, Siouxland Christian should be a school that plays next year I think. And they are not a good program at the moment. But I could see that changing in the future with SC as the population base.
     
  11. CalmHawk

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    MMCRU could also be a team to watch to drop down
     
  12. NWIAorBUST

    NWIAorBUST Freshman
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    According to the few people I know from MMCRU the numbers only get better in their middle school compared to high school still feeling some of the kids transferring out when they merged so I'd be surprised if their numbers drop below that 120 mark. Even if it does I'd bet they'd stay 11 if they think they'll be back to 11 again right away.
     
  13. Lenmaster

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    FYI, The 2 cycle waiver is no more. The language in the rules now says if you are over 120 you go up no matter what.
     
  14. Smokinfr1blue7

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    Yep and still let Sidney stay 8 man. Those rules aren't followed by the state. There are 20 schools that have no business in 8 man.
     
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  15. Anonymous111

    Anonymous111 Freshman
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    I would agree with this. Garrigan went 9-0 for 4 straight seasons and has a state runner up in a loaded class A field (2016), and during that 4 year stretch they were below the cut off everytime. Would probably have 3-4 state titles from those years and private schools would dominate even more so then they do now. Being from the area, they have regularly competed with some of the traditional powers and have become one. The same is with Saint Alberts. They would be the same way having a ton of success in the past and would dominate the public schools in there area to the point where it wouldn’t even be fair. Now as far as the logistics of any of those teams dropping, the only one I can see dropping down a class is Garrigan
     
  16. Jayhawkin

    Jayhawkin Freshman
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    Out of these schools listed, I do see a majority of them at the very least, exploring the option. Do I see Garrigan, LS, Newman, and NP pulling the trigger on a move, probably not. But really who knows. The 8 man option has been great for some schools. I would love to see the state offer 2 classes of 8 man football, like Nebraska does.
     
  17. PNation

    PNation Varsity
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    The reason I don't think that you'll see it is because the state tends to make the smaller school divisions bigger and the bigger school divisions smaller, with good reason, the differences in size are much greater in 4A then they tend to be for class A or 8 man. To me it just doesn't make sense to have 2 classes of approximately 32 teams for 8 man. You could expand the number of teams who can play 8 man, but I think that opens up more opportunities for schools with good participation to play 8 man which isn't the purpose behind playing 8 man.
     
  18. OldKnights

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    Just curious who you think that the 20 teams are that should not be playing 8 man?
     
  19. NWIAorBUST

    NWIAorBUST Freshman
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    IMHO there are 0 teams that currently play 8 man that NEED to play 11 man. Say what you want about bosco but they have a BEDS of 81, even with a multiplier they wouldn't go up.
     
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  20. _yourself

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    Bosco is private right outside of Waterloo but Columbus is private as well in Waterloo so why would anyone go to Bosco if they can stay in town and go to Columbus?
     
  21. BasketballFanatic2727

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    If you don't think that Bosco and some schools should jump up then you don't watch close enough. Bosco has 81 kids and probably all 81 play sports. They have no kids on IEP's or students that don't do any extra curricular and if they do it is few a far between. If a public school has 80 kids they would be lucky if 40 of them played sports and that was girls and boys. Dunkerton is right by Don Bosco with 112 as their beds and 16 boys played football this year, 16! Recruiting isn't the main issue it is the social-economic class these kids are in. But when you play 8 man or at a small school in basketball having one or two kids be given "scholarships" it really effects a team since rosters are so small. These private schools that are on the verge of going up classes can just cut their numbers back down. There are obvious advantage private schools have over public.
     
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  22. NWIAorBUST

    NWIAorBUST Freshman
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    I'm not saying that no schools need to be looked at but bosco is 40 kids below the cut. It is an advantage to be a private school based on the type of kids you attract for sure but a school with that enrollment in that size of town would not be affected by a multiplier anyway. Same as RSM.
     
  23. SICL Cares

    SICL Cares Freshman
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    Don't you think after going 92-6 in 8-Man (made the switch in the 2012-2013 school year) with solid player numbers out for football you would at least entertain the possibility of making the switch back to Class A? If I had to pick a gripe with them, that would be the one and not their location, socioeconomic status of their families, etc.

    In no way do I discredit the kids and their success, after spending time working in their community it is evident why they are successful at athletics as their kids can be seen around town busting their tails. This is a staff or administration problem if the switch back to A has not at least been entertained.
     
  24. NWIAorBUST

    NWIAorBUST Freshman
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    100% agree with you it should be a discussion. They should be taking a good look into their JH numbers / youth numbers and if they plan to keep that type of strength in numbers a bump definitely should be discussed.
     
  25. Case I H

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    Some people think we should have 2 classes in 8man. If you split the class in half, Don Bosco is on the smaller side. They would be in the lower class even.
     
  26. notlongago

    notlongago Varsity
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    Why? They don't win a title every year, they are WELL below the cutoff and zero signs of enrollment improving. Why should they handicap themselves? They work harder, have more community support , better coaching, etc and should reap the benefits of those labors and factors. As someone else pointed out, W'loo Columbus is a private school IN Waterloo and they're terrible at everything athletic - why voluntarily go down that path?
     
  27. SICL Cares

    SICL Cares Freshman
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    Where have the BEDS numbers impacted them anywhere but positively? Their participation numbers in football are certainly not hurting them. They’ve been a virtual lock to the Dome every year minus the year Newell-Fonda had their huge comeback against them in the quarterfinals.

    This is a testament to how great of an athletic program they’ve built there in Gilbertville. They’ve built a team that is truly challenged twice at most per season. Wasn’t 8-Player football created to help programs with low BEDS numbers AND low participation numbers? I’ve said this for years: their final season in A they went 8-3 that season and had 43 players on the roster. First year in 8-Player they were 12-1 and had 42 players on their roster per Quik Stats. So because they happened to have lower BEDS numbers, just go ahead and thump struggling programs for years because you might not have a golden ticket to the Dome every year otherwise? That doesn’t come off as a program that needed to make the switch, rather one that is able to use an out to an easier road to success. I’m fairly confident their teams over the better half of the last decade could have won at least one Class A title.
     
    27 SICL Cares, Nov 8, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  28. BasketballFanatic2727

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    Don Bosco has been to the dome almost every year since dropping down. I am not saying they don't work hard and don't have a great coaching staff, because they do. I can argue a lot of school that have the same things you're talking about but don't have the same success. Why has their talent been so consistently coming through? Milder at West Central is one of the best in the state at 8 man and has a lot of these things but he hasn't had a winning season in a while. There is something fundamentally wrong here and I do not know how to fix it but when schools have different rules for their enrollment options it make it tough.
     
    28 BasketballFanatic2727, Nov 8, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
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  29. _yourself

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    I think the overall difference from a successful program to an unsuccessful program is the mindset of being a winner or a loser. Everyone wants to be a winning team and say they are apart of that and who wants to be part of a losing team. Just think about that. You ask yourself how does a team like Bosco become good or stay on top... It's their mindset that comes from a very successful wrestling program all those years and with the support system, they have from the community and staff. Of course, you will have some teams that don't have successful other programs but how many of them are a good year in and out. Every coach and schools wants to find the ingredients that Bosco has and it is not recruiting if so their numbers would be going up and up. You look through there line up and most if not all their kids went through their system. Just my two cents
     
  30. notlongago

    notlongago Varsity
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    No. Why would participation numbers have ANY influence on what division you play? That is just asinine.

    Its funny, when they were getting thumped in A w/ 40-50 players on the roster, everyone in the state they thought they should drop to 8 man. No issues with roster size then.

    Lets just call a spade a spade - people are frustrated and jealous and looking for any excuse to justify their own teams' shortcomings. Its easy to blame someone else and insinuate they have some sort of unfair advantage rather than look at the mirror and realize the fault lies there in one way or another.
     
    30 notlongago, Nov 8, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
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  31. notlongago

    notlongago Varsity
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    well said
     
  32. notlongago

    notlongago Varsity
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    Youre not really falling back to that played out "recruiting" excuse are you? If that were true, the recruiters in Gilbertville would be at a D1 school because they are recognizing state champion level talent at a K-3 level. (if you arent picking up what im putting down, all of these players have come up through their system since they started going to IC/St. A's).
     
  33. SICL Cares

    SICL Cares Freshman
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    What year did Don Bosco introduce football? When they did start their program, was there a junior high or JV program first? Truly do not know so I am curious.

    I guess my thought process behind the whole thing is when I was in high school, our school never entertained the thought of switching to 8-Player while we had some good-to-very good teams in Class A. We were competitive each week and had solid enough numbers roster-wise that we didn't need to eliminate three guys from the game. I could be mistaken, but I am confident my alma mater was always eligible to play 8-Player but didn't until roster numbers dipped under 20 and our BEDS numbers plummeted as well. In conclusion: if you've got the horses to play in A, why not do it then? Get more guys involved every snap of the game.

    The private school advantage is played out with Don Bosco in my opinion because as I noted before, I used to live in Gilbertville and it is evident how hard those kids work because you see them around town hitting grounders to each other, shooting hoops, running, throwing the football, etc. They're a talented, very hard working bunch. I guess at some point you'd just think "We've got the studs, we've got great numbers. Why not make the switch back and see what we can do in A?"
     
  34. notlongago

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    They started in 2004 and had a full jv & varsity schedule with up to 55 players on the roster. They've always had middle school / Jr high programs. Those first teams were very bad teams and it's not as if they didn't have talent - multiple state championship wrestlers, all State basketball players, all State baseball players. The biggest change has been coaching and attitude.

    As to why not go A, why are we assuming A is some Pinnacle of small town high School football? 8man is just more fun to play , watch and coach. I'm sure the top teams in 8 man could complete with the top A teams in most years (hell the Bosco JV team played 11 man games when they were on the BEDS boarder).
    They're in the class the state says they should be in (by alot), and I'm sure no one on the db roster would complain about lack of playing time. Why join a class that isn't any better but 1 injury would much more signifnalty alter your season outlook?
     
  35. BasketballFanatic2727

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    There is no point in debating it on here. Small town schools have complained about the unfair playing field for years. There are obvious advantages private schools have over public but until the state does something, private schools will continue to dominate despite only being a small percentage of Iowa schools. You can call it work ethic and attitude but there are many other factors that determine how good your program is. It isn't DB's fault, they don't create the system, they play by the rules set forth.
     
  36. player97

    player97 Freshman
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  37. notlongago

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    Well they came before 2012 when Bosco was a combined 22-52, so you can't say football prowess brought them here, but nice try.
     
  38. notlongago

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    And they also complain about refs, weather, field conditions, etc. Teams that don't have a winning culture will always complain and blame others, doesn't mean there's an external issue
     
  39. SICL Cares

    SICL Cares Freshman
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    Certainly not saying it is the pinnacle, just stating it gets more kids involved when they'd still be competitive.
     
  40. player97

    player97 Freshman
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    Wrong Damian Sawvel graduated in 2016 and he was not there all through high school. He went to Clarksville and so did his brother Wyatt.
     

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