Playoffs back to 16 qualifiers

[six5hunter]

I can see you totally missed the point of the post, so either you have an axe to grind or you suffer from not being able to see the forest through the trees. I'm guessing it's both. So if east was the weakest..LC had to have a miracle TD to tie the game...but that makes east the weakest...then I guess both east and LC were weak. And you don't see east crowing about beating Johnston in the playoffs from the year before...and east did it with their third QB....so there is your axe I guess

Point being...and I'll slow it down for you....some decent teams are going to be left out of the playoffs....and I think things like playoffs offer kids a good experience and more opportunities to play football.....and that should be a consideration. As I mentioned...but you didn't comprehend it....football is the only athletic endeavor that has become exclusive. No one complains when bad teams or individuals compete in other sports at tournament time...but football has become an exclusive sport. What you could not understand is...why?

No axe to grind and there's not trees where I live.

East 7 - 2
Lost to Johnston
Lost to LC
LC 7 - 2
Beat Johnston
Beat SC East

Johnston 7 - 2
Beat East
Lost to LC

So here's how it look sin the book if we were just playing a 3 game 3 team season otay?

LC 2 -0
Johnston 1-1
EAST 0- 2

Yup 3rd out of 3.

Alright that's that. Just to show I am not closed minded let's then look to common opponents outside of head to head...just to indulge? Ok?

Des Moines Roosevelt: Blowouts all around except East
Des Moines North: blowouts all around
Dowling: blowouts all around the other way

Nope not seeing it. East was not the better team at 7 - 2....actually they would be more like the 3rd best team at 7 -2 so OUT! Sit home or head out in the cold to watch some football.

Football is the only athletic endeavor that has become exclusive because it is exclusive. Here's how exclusive it is.... we play once a week for the most part at all levels from pee wee to the NFL. It brings in the money so that the other sports can play every day. It has the biggest following. The highest number of participants. And on and on.

I also didn't know that we were bringing ghosts of season past into the discussion. But that's cool....Johnston was a whopping 5 - 4 or something right?
Refresh my memory about two years ago the next week after Johnston and a few weeks before that?

I think it was to the tune of about 90 - 7? Hello Mr. Valley.

 

[BigHawk]

No axe to grind and there's not trees where I live.

East 7 - 2
Lost to Johnston
Lost to LC
LC 7 - 2
Beat Johnston
Beat SC East

Johnston 7 - 2
Beat East
Lost to LC

So here's how it look sin the book if we were just playing a 3 game 3 team season otay?

LC 2 -0
Johnston 1-1
EAST 0- 2

Yup 3rd out of 3.

Alright that's that. Just to show I am not closed minded let's then look to common opponents outside of head to head...just to indulge? Ok?

Des Moines Roosevelt: Blowouts all around except East
Des Moines North: blowouts all around
Dowling: blowouts all around the other way

Nope not seeing it. East was not the better team at 7 - 2....actually they would be more like the 3rd best team at 7 -2 so OUT! Sit home or head out in the cold to watch some football.

Football is the only athletic endeavor that has become exclusive because it is exclusive. Here's how exclusive it is.... we play once a week for the most part at all levels from pee wee to the NFL. It brings in the money so that the other sports can play every day. It has the biggest following. The highest number of participants. And on and on.

I also didn't know that we were bringing ghosts of season past into the discussion. But that's cool....Johnston was a whopping 5 - 4 or something right?
Refresh my memory about two years ago the next week after Johnston and a few weeks before that?

I think it was to the tune of about 90 - 7? Hello Mr. Valley.

You still missed the point. But you've shown your maturity level. In the initial post I wasn't calling anyone out..only expressing the idea that there are going to be decent teams left out of the playoffs...and that your whole season could potentially come down to one or two games. You obviously do have an axe to grind as now you want to bring the valley scores into the conversation...that's fine. I am not so insecure as to have to look up scores to try and belittle someone. I was trying to get a discussion going and you wanted to make this a pissing match.

There will be scenarios where 7-2 and maybe even 8-1(while rare..it will happen) teams will miss out on the playoffs.

But go ahead and spill whatever you want with this..I'm done...I was thinking out loud and am an advocate for high school kids getting chances to play football. The NFL had losing records in the Playoffs last year...lots of 6-6 college teams go bowl games and you obviously want to turn this into a "My dad is tougher than your dad" argument. If you want I could email you the scores from the past 30 years or so from EHS and you can post the losses here as well.

 

[brewcrewman1]

You still missed the point. But you've shown your maturity level. In the initial post I wasn't calling anyone out..only expressing the idea that there are going to be decent teams left out of the playoffs...and that your whole season could potentially come down to one or two games. You obviously do have an axe to grind as now you want to bring the valley scores into the conversation...that's fine. I am not so insecure as to have to look up scores to try and belittle someone. I was trying to get a discussion going and you wanted to make this a pissing match.

There will be scenarios where 7-2 and maybe even 8-1(while rare..it will happen) teams will miss out on the playoffs.

But go ahead and spill whatever you want with this..I'm done...I was thinking out loud and am an advocate for high school kids getting chances to play football. The NFL had losing records in the Playoffs last year...lots of 6-6 college teams go bowl games and you obviously want to turn this into a "My dad is tougher than your dad" argument. If you want I could email you the scores from the past 30 years or so from EHS and you can post the losses here as well.

 

[AlecJensen89]

Somehow California and Texas are still producing top athletes with limits on full contact practices? There are plenty of things coaches can do.

 

[tnobd]

Here's to hoping they get rid of district qualifying and go back to the point system.

Why not go to a 40 team 4A class with 4- 10 team districts? Qualify the first four finishers of each district. Group the district in competitive tiers based on 5 year performance. It may not work from a geographic standpoint nor will it allow for non-district play.

 

[tnobd]

Why not go to a 40 team 4A class with 4- 10 team districts? Qualify the first four finishers of each district. Group the district in competitive tiers based on 5 year performance. It may not work from a geographic standpoint nor will it allow for non-district play.

Just make sure you have Dowling, Valley, SEP, Waukee, Cedar Falls, IC High, IC West, CR Washington, and Bettendorf aligned properly.

 

[screwloose]

How about five districts of eight, if you wanna have 40? You could still give the top two or three teams in each district playoff berths then leave either six or one spots open to qualifying from an at-large pool. Playoffs could be seeded in a general fashion and still be matched up loosely by geography.

DISTRICT 1...

1. WDM Valley
2. SC East
3. Ankeny Centennial
4. Johnston
5. CB Lincoln
6. DM Lincoln
7. DM Roosevelt
8. SC West

DISTRICT 2...

1. WDM Dowling
2. Waukee
3. Urbandale
4. Fort Dodge
5. SC North
6. DM East
7. DM North
8. CB Jefferson

DISTRICT 3...

1. Cedar Falls
2. Ankeny
3. Ames
4. Southeast Polk
5. Indianola
6. Marshalltown
7. Waterloo West
8. CR Jefferson

DISTRICT 4...

1. CR Washington
2. Pleasant Valley
3. IC High
4. CR Kennedy
5. Dav Central
6. Dub Hempstead
7. Dub Senior
8. Dav North

DISTRICT 5...

1. Bettendorf
2. Muscatine
3. IC West
4. CR Prairie
5. Ottumwa
6. Lin-Mar
7. Burlington
8. Dav West

Of course, these would be moving parts. But it could give you a general idea...something I whipped together in about ten minutes.

 

[tnobd]

How about five districts of eight, if you wanna have 40? You could still give the top two or three teams in each district playoff berths then leave either six or one spots open to qualifying from an at-large pool. Playoffs could be seeded in a general fashion and still be matched up loosely by geography.

DISTRICT 1...

1. WDM Valley
2. SC East
3. Ankeny Centennial
4. Johnston
5. CB Lincoln
6. DM Lincoln
7. DM Roosevelt
8. SC West

DISTRICT 2...

1. WDM Dowling
2. Waukee
3. Urbandale
4. Fort Dodge
5. SC North
6. DM East
7. DM North
8. CB Jefferson

DISTRICT 3...

1. Cedar Falls
2. Ankeny
3. Ames
4. Southeast Polk
5. Indianola
6. Marshalltown
7. Waterloo West
8. CR Jefferson

DISTRICT 4...

1. CR Washington
2. Pleasant Valley
3. IC High
4. CR Kennedy
5. Dav Central
6. Dub Hempstead
7. Dub Senior
8. Dav North

DISTRICT 5...

1. Bettendorf
2. Muscatine
3. IC West
4. CR Prairie
5. Ottumwa
6. Lin-Mar
7. Burlington
8. Dav West

Your 8 teams districts work geographically

4-10s or 5-8s with an @large pool and a one game 3A exemption?

6 and 5 team districts do not work well with 16 qualifiers

Plus the subject of private school multipliers should be discussed.

 

[portpro]

Screw...what you whipped up in ten minutes is the the rumor that the IHSAA is proposing, you and tnobd are eerily close to having inside information! The apparent tweaks to your thoughts are that class would be called 5A with 4A mirroring the same format. The rest of the classes 3A, 2A,1A, A would divide equally, with 8 man having 2 classes within. Ahlahh...the 16 team playoff format doesnt seem so discriminatory, it adds more classes, more teams in the playoffs and more revenue to the IHSAA!

 

[Zeek86]

5A largest 40 teams (5 eight team districts, top 2 qualify and 6 at large teams chosen)
4A next largest 40 teams (5 eight team districts, top 2 qualify and 6 at large teams chosen)
Divide 3A 2A 1A and A equally. That would leave approximately 48 teams in each class (6 8 team districts, top 2 qualify, 4 at large chosen)

The hard part is coming up with a system to choose at large teams. The one positive of 32 teams in the playoffs is that you didn't leave home top teams in the state. The at large selections could help continue to get the top teams in the tournament....just have to come up with a system that is workable.

 

[tnobd]

Believe me, no one in the IHSAA is keeping counsel with me.

Obviously the declining enrollment in the isolated public 4A high schools will affect the 4A class. IMO there is no reason for a 44 team class in 4A...should be 48 maximum or 36 minimum whether you call it 5A or 4A. If you mirror 40 teams with a revised 5A and 4A class 4A would begin at Clinton with 840 and end with Charles City at 384 students per the 2014-2015 Beds document. A private school multiplier should be considered.

In my state of residence (TN) they adopted a 32 team large classification this year ....they all get into the playoffs . They want the ticket revenues for the first two playoff games with home field advantage for traditional high school powers it seems.

 

[paxregis]

First criteria for at-large should be district record. That would ensure any teams on the short end of a three-way tie at 6-1 still get in. 2. Overall record 3. District placing (ex: two teams from different districts finish 5-2/6-3. One team finished third, the other 4th.3rd place gets the nod.

 

[screwloose]

First criteria for at-large should be district record. That would ensure any teams on the short end of a three-way tie at 6-1 still get in. 2. Overall record 3. District placing (ex: two teams from different districts finish 5-2/6-3. One team finished third, the other 4th.3rd place gets the nod.

I like this in theory pax. However, with six at-large spots available, it would take a lot of parity for an oddball 6-1 district record to not get one of those spots. I suppose said team could lose both non-district games and finish 6-3. Tossing out your first criteria, a team finishing third with a 6-1/6-3 record would have to be in very safe water.

Also, to reiterate a point that tnobd made, the IHSAA isn't asking me anything either. In fact, I only came up with that whole deal because my interest was sparked. People like tnobd know that realignment and other such organizational matters really pique my interest. If the board wanted to start paying me, even a small nominal amount, I'm a pretty easy guy to find.

 

[Mize19]

First criteria for at-large should be district record. That would ensure any teams on the short end of a three-way tie at 6-1 still get in. 2. Overall record 3. District placing (ex: two teams from different districts finish 5-2/6-3. One team finished third, the other 4th.3rd place gets the nod.

The State will NOT consider non District Games in playoff criteria. The IFCA has been asked to provide input for qualifying criteria.

 

[tnobd]

The State will NOT consider non District Games in playoff criteria. The IFCA has been asked to provide input for qualifying criteria.[/QUOTE
mize, asking the coaches about what they think is fair, when selecting playoff qualifiers... is a very good idea.

 

[screwloose]

Since I put a mock together for this mysterious new "5A". I didn't wanna disappoint you freaks out there...I just put together a new mock "4A" also. 40 teams, five districts of eight...

DISTRICT 1...

1. CB Lewis Central
2. Glenwood
3. Harlan
4. Denison-Schleswig
5. SC Heelan
6. LeMars
7. Storm Lake
8. Spencer

DISTRICT 2...

1. Mason City
2. Webster City
3. Boone
4. Ballard(Huxley)
5. Dallas Center-Grimes
6. Perry
7. DM Hoover
8. Winterset

DISTRICT 3...

1. Newton
2. Carlisle
3. Norwalk
4. Washington
5. Knoxville
6. Fairfield
7. Pella
8. Oskaloosa

DISTRICT 4...

1. Decorah
2. Waverly-Shell Rock
3. Charles City
4. Waterloo East
5. Dub Wahlert
6. Western Dubuque
7. CR Xavier
8. Marion

DISTRICT 5...

1. Clinton
2. Central Clinton
3. Maquoketa
4. North Scott
5. Clear Creek-Amana
6. Keokuk
7. Mount Pleasant
8. Fort Madison

 

[tnobd]

Screwloose,
District #5 would be the most interesting with a formidable North Scott with no Davenport Assumption. Lewis Central would return to their old "3A" district in #1. 2 private schools in the same district in #4 and ends up as possibly the toughest new district in this class. Grinnell end up as a new 3A power.

 

[screwloose]

These are all subjective, of course. The new BEDS counts for 2017 will be the big factor. Looking at the bottoms and tops of each of these classes...

5A
851...Indianola
847...Burlington
846...Davenport North

4A
840...Clinton
826...Mason City
816...Waterloo East
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4A
393...Knoxville
392...Central Clinton
391...Winterset
388...Fairfield
384...Dubuque Wahlert
384...Charles City

3A
382...Grinnell
380...Vinton-Shellsburg
379...Independence
376...Carroll
372...Creston
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The simple swap from 5A and 4A wouldn't be effected just by those swaps alone, but by the ones from 4A to 3A and vis versa. Especially if you end up with an ugly East/Central/West transfer. Example, Charles City & Dubuque Wahlert falling to 3A in place of Carroll & Creston. If you compound that with Waterloo East & Mason City replacing Burlington & Davenport North, you could have some real issues for a 4A District 4 and aligning for an outlier like Decorah.

 

[tnobd]

It seems like both Mason City and Burlington enrollments continue to fall due to the alternative of private high schools in their communities. It makes you wonder if the IHSAA will have to determine all football classes by enrollment tiers...like the 700 student enrollment 4A used previously. The numbers are so close at the bottom of the top 40 and top 80. If a few family's decide to move , they can determine these schools future schedules. The other factor is the 2 year cycle. Could more stability be achieved if they extended the classification cycle to 4 years? You could make an exception if a school falls to 8 man football enrollment or has an economic event in the community that lowers enrollment over 10% or so.

 

[paxregis]

Mason City & Burlington public schools are not shrinking because of losses to private schools. Both are just dying old industry towns and can't retain families to maintain either public or private numbers.

 

[tnobd]

Pax, I was trying to give both of those communities the benefit of the doubt concerning the enrollment drops. Unfortunately there are more 4A communities in that same boat in Iowa.

 

[paxregis]

That boatload of ebbing large market towns would likely be the beneficiaries of another class added to the top. Although Newton hasn't exactly burned up the field in 3A, the out-state big schools would have a better chance at success in the new 4A we've been ruminating about.

 

[stickman80]

That boatload of ebbing large market towns would likely be the beneficiaries of another class added to the top. Although Newton hasn't exactly burned up the field in 3A, the out-state big schools would have a better chance at success in the new 4A we've been ruminating about.

There could be more success for those schools by adding a class but that is not a given. As you point out....Newton was supposed to make a big slash in 3A and they have yet to become a 3A contender. (I'm including myself as a person who believed Newton would be a 3A contender). On the flip side there are some current 3A schools which are mediocre at best that would get pulled into 4A if a class were added and that would be very bad for their programs.

 

[screwloose]

There could be more success for those schools by adding a class but that is not a given. As you point out....Newton was supposed to make a big slash in 3A and they have yet to become a 3A contender. (I'm including myself as a person who believed Newton would be a 3A contender). On the flip side there are some current 3A schools which are mediocre at best that would get pulled into 4A if a class were added and that would be very bad for their programs.

Actually, 34 of the schools that would be in this new 4A would come from the current 3A. As it sits now, the additional six teams that would join them from the current 4A would be; Clinton, Mason City, Waterloo East, Des Moines Hoover, North Scott and Council Bluffs Lewis Central. Other than North Scott, none of those schools have been consistent winners at 4A(CBLC was very good last year though, but was 3A before that). I don't think those current 3A schools would be in much different shape.

 

[oonfoofoo]

The whole "don't finish third" thing is bad. I mostly follow 4A. I went through last year's numbers. The top two teams from Districts 3, 5, 6, 7 & 8 all would have qualified using the old point system. Districts 1 & 4 would have only qualified their champions. District 2 would have qualified their top four.

There's no way of knowing who's going to be the best when they align the districts. They cannot use the rigid rank-and-file, top two qualify rule. It's not fair overall. For one, as noted above, one District could be loaded and two deserving teams could be sitting at home while a team they may have beaten in non-district play go to the playoffs because they're in an easier district. For two, it would make ALL the games on a team' schedule count, not just four to six district match-ups with three to five glorified exhibitions.

If you know in the beginning that if you finish third you are out then everyone is on level playing ground. You know going in as does 2 and 3 and 4.

You are right you don't know who's going to be the best and it may not be fair but it's what you got so make the best of it. You know beginning the season for the most part who is good in each district and coaches should be planning their seasons for those games. If a coach is in district X and you have 4 teams that let's say are the best 4 in the state and you think your team is at 3 then you play accordingly. Can't get your team up and ready for a game that could make or break your season....so be it.

It is what it is....sounds like everyone complaining is at schools that are in that middle of the road gray area for the most part.

 

[screwloose]

It is what it is....sounds like everyone complaining is at schools that are in that middle of the road gray area for the most part.

You're incorrect with that point, I'm a Marshalltown alumnus. Unless there's a kid or two coming through the system that's a game changer, they're probably unaffected, wherever they end up. I'm a numbers guy. I think the best should be there regardless of what district they're in. If the fourth best team in a district is better than the second team from another, so be it. That fourth place team should be there. I really don't understand how anybody can say, "that's a level playing ground". Last season was a very true indicator that they weren't. If a 5-4 Urbandale, who finishes second in their district, is more deserving than a 6-3 Sioux City East, who finishes fourth in theirs, then I guess I'm the dumb one.

If the field is going to be pared down and only the absolute most deserving teams are going to be invited, then open qualifying for those last spots is the ONLY way to address it.

 

[stickman80]

Actually, 34 of the schools that would be in this new 4A would come from the current 3A. As it sits now, the additional six teams that would join them from the current 4A would be; Clinton, Mason City, Waterloo East, Des Moines Hoover, North Scott and Council Bluffs Lewis Central. Other than North Scott, none of those schools have been consistent winners at 4A(CBLC was very good last year though, but was 3A before that). I don't think those current 3A schools would be in much different shape.

I can't completely agree with you screw. Those middle of the road 3A teams who would become 4A schools are getting pinched multiple ways.

First, like everyone in every class there will suddenly be only 2 playoff spots and not 4. The schools I am thinking of have been able to often (but not always) make the expanded playoffs but normally as a 3 or 4 seed. They would have to raise the bar just to get into the playoffs of 16.

Let's take a team from your proposed 4A District 2...Winterset. Not picking on them but they fill the bill for the type of program I am talking about. Last year they made the playoffs as a 3 seed at 5-4 and lost in the first round. Two of their district wins were against ADM and Atlantic. Guess what? Those 2 teams will not be 4A but will remain 3A. Instead under your proposed new 4A they would face a DM Hoover team who was 5-4 in last years 4A and Mason City who even though they were only 1-8 last year in 4A will likely be more competitive in last years 3A. I don't see many of the 4A schools who would stay 4A being likely title contenders (with the possible exception of CBLC) in the new 4A but generally they will be more competitive than the current 3A schools who would remain 3A.

Had those changes been made I'm not sure Winterset would have made the playoffs last year or if they did it likely would have been as a 4 seed.

Even if you were in a new 4A district that did not receive any of the prior 4A schools you will see more competition because of a condensing (to 34 by your count) of the bigger, probably better old 3A programs.

 

[oonfoofoo]

There could be more success for those schools by adding a class but that is not a given. As you point out....Newton was supposed to make a big slash in 3A and they have yet to become a 3A contender. (I'm including myself as a person who believed Newton would be a 3A contender). On the flip side there are some current 3A schools which are mediocre at best that would get pulled into 4A if a class were added and that would be very bad for their programs.

Add a class? Makes no sense. Are you looking to provide success to bottom tier schools?

You're incorrect with that point, I'm a Marshalltown alumnus. Unless there's a kid or two coming through the system that's a game changer, they're probably unaffected, wherever they end up. I'm a numbers guy. I think the best should be there regardless of what district they're in. If the fourth best team in a district is better than the second team from another, so be it. That fourth place team should be there. I really don't understand how anybody can say, "that's a level playing ground". Last season was a very true indicator that they weren't. If a 5-4 Urbandale, who finishes second in their district, is more deserving than a 6-3 Sioux City East, who finishes fourth in theirs, then I guess I'm the dumb one.

If the field is going to be pared down and only the absolute most deserving teams are going to be invited, then open qualifying for those last spots is the ONLY way to address it.

And hence why head to head comes into play in all other levels. You can't go head to head unless you have it. How can you say Sioux City East is more deserving than Urbandale?

but let's look at your scenario - mind you to call SC East more deserving than Urbandale might be a stretch. If you have 100s of folks looking at these games and crunching the numbers you will never get to this.

So

The only common games were Dowling, Waukee and Johnston with Waukee in the playoffs and by all counts it looks like a draw.These two look pretty close to identical.

Let's say head to head is a draw....let's go to quality of wins.....

East had one quality win and urbandale really had none. Does a win against 3A runner up do enough? Nope it now comes down to finish....gotta go with urbandale with order of finish.

East is in no way more deserving than urbandale so yeah it would have been about correct. You can't argue if you are East....it's too close to call.

 

[stickman80]

Add a class? Makes no sense. Are you looking to provide success to bottom tier schools?



And hence why head to head comes into play in all other levels. You can't go head to head unless you have it. How can you say Sioux City East is more deserving than Urbandale?

but let's look at your scenario - mind you to call SC East more deserving than Urbandale might be a stretch. If you have 100s of folks looking at these games and crunching the numbers you will never get to this.

So

The only common games were Dowling, Waukee and Johnston with Waukee in the playoffs and by all counts it looks like a draw.These two look pretty close to identical.

Let's say head to head is a draw....let's go to quality of wins.....

East had one quality win and urbandale really had none. Does a win against 3A runner up do enough? Nope it now comes down to finish....gotta go with urbandale with order of finish.

East is in no way more deserving than urbandale so yeah it would have been about correct. You can't argue if you are East....it's too close to call.