High School Pitch Counts

[HawkPT]

An interesting look at the pitch count rules for each state: http://www.baseballamerica.com/high-school/high-school-pitch-count-rules-by-state/.

As you probably know, the NFHS mandated a pitch count but gave the states authority over the specifics. Three states followed the Pitch Smart rules, which are considered to be pretty strict: Arizona, Maryland, and Florida.

Pitch Smart allows 11th/12th graders to throw a maximum of 105 pitches in a day and 9th/10th graders a maximum of 95. Minimum rest is 1 day with 31-45 pitches; 2 days with 46-60 pitches; 3 days with 61-75 pitches; and 4 days with 76+ pitches.

Iowa's rules are quite strict as well with the following rules:

• Maximum pitch count = 110
• 1 day rest with 26-40 pitches
• 2 day rest with 41-65 pitches
• 3 day rest with 66-90 pitches
• 4 day rest with 91+ pitches

As a physical therapist, I believe pitch counts are necessary for the long-term health of pitchers' arms. However, I expect modifications will be made in upcoming years. Iowa's rules are more strict than Pitch Smart for pitch counts requiring 1 day rest (40 vs. 45).

In the category of unintended consequences, my son's team is having several schools cancel games - schools they've played for many years. His team competes at the 2A level, and some 1A schools don't want to waste arms while not being equipped to compete. Unfortunately, I think this will result in kids playing less baseball at those levels.

 

[SJM19]

Having a son who is a pitcher, I think this is a good thing. Will it be recorded and put somewhere for coaches to monitor?

 

[HawkPT]

It sounds like both teams will be responsible for tracking pitches, and the home book is official on this. I'm not sure what the plan is for posting and monitoring. That's a good question. I would think that IAHSAA will likely have something on their website, or maybe they'll add features to Quikstats for this purpose.

 

[denmar81]

I think the pitch count will kill the lower level schools. Some may end up dropping the sport. I agree some sort of pitch count is necessary, but this goes too far. The problem isn't necessarily pitch count and has more to do with improper mechanics.

 

[HawkPT]

I'm not sure it will kill the lower level schools, but it will almost definitely reduce the number of games they play including exposure to playing up, which is important for development. Hopefully, coaches will be proactive and increase their efforts to develop more pitchers, so this will require some collaboration with Little Leagues and recreational development programs.

 

[FootballFan1009]

1st thing:
The pitch count is great and needed to be done. Too many high school coaches over throwing kids which leads to arm problems down the road. If your coaching staff wasn't already using pitch counts, that is sad and the school district should be looking for a more suitable person for the position.

2nd thing:
This rule will force coaches to do what they should have already been doing in developing pitchers. All players (in small school setting) should be going through pitching program. In a large school setting this would still be beneficial to the program in order to ensure proper mechanics and building/conditioning the arm.

I believe this will lead to see more quality teams excelling and not just a team will 1/2 good arms throwing their team to a state championship.

The Numbers:
When you have 14-17 year olds throwing 70 innings in a season (8 weeks long approx.), averaging almost 9 innings a week (more than a major league pitcher averages a week), there is a problem.


I think there was a major problem with coaches over using kids and I am glad there has been action taken. Develop a team and don't just ride a player. I think this is great for the game. The previous pitching rules were way out dated.

 

[SJM19]

It sounds like both teams will be responsible for tracking pitches, and the home book is official on this. I'm not sure what the plan is for posting and monitoring. That's a good question. I would think that IAHSAA will likely have something on their website, or maybe they'll add features to Quikstats for this purpose.

Just found this on iahsaa.org :

All varsity pitch counts are required to be entered into QuikStats within 24 hours of the completion of the game. All levels of baseball (freshman, JV, varsity, etc.) are required to complete the IHSAA Pitch Count Chart and both schools’ coaches are required to verify and sign said chart at the conclusion of the contest.

I could see this being useful (down the stretch) in knowing how many pitches your opponent has. Could be interesting during the post-season.

 

[APir8Dad]

I believe that the pitch count change is a good thing. The issue that I see and this coincides with the philosophy of our previous coach is having a player that is both a pitcher and catcher. If the point is to "control" the exertion on the arm, why not include the catcher in the equation? I realize that every throw from the catcher is not at full effort, but they are still touching every pitch. In the past, our #1 and #2 pitchers were our #1 and #2 catchers.

I think that for the teams that have "baseball players", it is going to be very interesting to see how coaches have to develop both pitchers and catchers moving forward, not a pitcher/catcher.

 

[HawkPT]

Agreed, APir8Dad. The legs of a catcher definitely fatigue over the year, so if that player is also a primary pitcher, there is certainly more risk. I haven't figured out a good way to do that aside from preventing a kid from pitching and catching on the same day, which may not be feasible.

 

[HawkPT]

My perspective on the pitch count thing so far is that it has been a good thing, and in our games has gone off without a hitch.

We've definitely seen more pitching changes late in the game to keep pitchers below 26 or 41 pitches and require no or only 1 day rest.

We've only had one 1/2 inning with a pitch discrepancy, and it was fixed within 30 seconds.

I'm a fan of the rule. It will just take the smaller schools a couple of years to develop the pitching, which ultimately is a good thing as well for the game and the players.

 

[iowa12]

I think the pitch count will kill the lower level schools. Some may end up dropping the sport. I agree some sort of pitch count is necessary, but this goes too far. The problem isn't necessarily pitch count and has more to do with improper mechanics.

Wrong

 

[iowa12]

Wrong

In fact, you sound like the N Linn coach who makes himself look stupid every time he talks about it

 

[volknut]

An interesting look at the pitch count rules for each state: http://www.baseballamerica.com/high-school/high-school-pitch-count-rules-by-state/.

As you probably know, the NFHS mandated a pitch count but gave the states authority over the specifics. Three states followed the Pitch Smart rules, which are considered to be pretty strict: Arizona, Maryland, and Florida.

Pitch Smart allows 11th/12th graders to throw a maximum of 105 pitches in a day and 9th/10th graders a maximum of 95. Minimum rest is 1 day with 31-45 pitches; 2 days with 46-60 pitches; 3 days with 61-75 pitches; and 4 days with 76+ pitches.

Iowa's rules are quite strict as well with the following rules:

• Maximum pitch count = 110
• 1 day rest with 26-40 pitches
• 2 day rest with 41-65 pitches
• 3 day rest with 66-90 pitches
• 4 day rest with 91+ pitches

As a physical therapist, I believe pitch counts are necessary for the long-term health of pitchers' arms. However, I expect modifications will be made in upcoming years. Iowa's rules are more strict than Pitch Smart for pitch counts requiring 1 day rest (40 vs. 45).

In the category of unintended consequences, my son's team is having several schools cancel games - schools they've played for many years. His team competes at the 2A level, and some 1A schools don't want to waste arms while not being equipped to compete. Unfortunately, I think this will result in kids playing less baseball at those levels.

Are Iowa's more strict due to the compact season?

 

[HawkPT]

Are Iowa's more strict due to the compact season?

Good question. I don't know. I know someone on the committee that made the final pitch count rules, but I didn't ask that question to him.

Is the Iowa high school baseball season noticeably shorter than the schedule in other states? Is it typical for other states to have a regular season longer than 6 weeks?

 

[atomic87]

Could the pitch count actually be worse for some pitcher's arms in certain cases -- such as prompting coaches to leave a kid when he is clearly tiring because you don't want to 'burn' another pitcher with a busy week of games ahead. Saw a game where a kid gave up 1 run in the first four innings, then fell apart surrendering 4 runs in the fifth and 5 in the sixth, but they kept him in the game until he threw the limit of 110 pitches.

 

[HawkPT]

Could the pitch count actually be worse for some pitcher's arms in certain cases -- such as prompting coaches to leave a kid when he is clearly tiring because you don't want to 'burn' another pitcher with a busy week of games ahead.

Yes it could, but only if that kid isn't equipped to go 110 in the first place. The good news is that he is definitely going to get 4 days of recovery after that, unless he's a catcher too, which is another issue altogether.

Long innings tend to fatigue the arm more and tell the story more than just looking at total pitches. For example, going 110 pitches in 5 innings and having two of them being long, high pitch innings is generally harder on an arm than 110 pitches spread relatively evenly over 7 innings.

 

[volknut]

Good question. I don't know. I know someone on the committee that made the final pitch count rules, but I didn't ask that question to him.

Is the Iowa high school baseball season noticeably shorter than the schedule in other states? Is it typical for other states to have a regular season longer than 6 weeks?

Texas for example starts Feb 20th and ends June 9th (state championship).

 

[HawkPT]

It's probably happened elsewhere already, but Colfax-Mingo had to forfeit a win over North Mahaska from the other night because they had a pitcher go 124 pitches between two consecutive days. The rule states no more than 110 pitches in two consecutive days.

It stings even more because it takes away C-M's share of the conference championship and gives it outright to Lynnville-Sully.

 

[SSG T]

We had a tournament game earlier in the season where we (literally) used our last available player as a pitcher. Luckily he was able to throw 5 innings of shutout ball, but if he had struggled, I'm not sure what would have happened. They had no one else eligible to pitch.

 

[mattyb74]

Heelan JV plays 14 less games this year because of the pitch rule. PTHawk what do you think about a kid who goes 85 pitches, gets pulled then goes and plays shortstop for 2 innings and the second game of a double header?

 

[HawkPT]

Heelan JV plays 14 less games this year because of the pitch rule. PTHawk what do you think about a kid who goes 85 pitches, gets pulled then goes and plays shortstop for 2 innings and the second game of a double header?

It depends upon the kid, and it depends upon his arm condition after he throws 85 pitches. Tired is one thing; sore is another thing altogether. The problem is that most kids don't know how to distinguish that difference well and, even if they do, they are not usually great communicators.

Combining pitching with OF positions is probably the safest because the number of throws are the least, though they could be throwing with much greater velocity than a second baseman, for example. Combining pitching with the catcher position is the toughest because of the number of throws and the leg fatigue factor.

 

[SSG T]

Agreed, APir8Dad. The legs of a catcher definitely fatigue over the year, so if that player is also a primary pitcher, there is certainly more risk. I haven't figured out a good way to do that aside from preventing a kid from pitching and catching on the same day, which may not be feasible.

Our best pitcher is also our main catcher. Our second best pitcher is the backup catcher.

 

[iowa12]

We had a tournament game earlier in the season where we (literally) used our last available player as a pitcher. Luckily he was able to throw 5 innings of shutout ball, but if he had struggled, I'm not sure what would have happened. They had no one else eligible to pitch.

If you had no one else to pitch, that is on you for not developing more. You don't blame the rule. The rule is the best thing that has ever happened and something that should have been implemented long ago to help coaches from themselves

 

[SSG T]

If you had no one else to pitch, that is on you for not developing more. You don't blame the rule. The rule is the best thing that has ever happened and something that should have been implemented long ago to help coaches from themselves

No, we had no players left. Our varsity has 11 players. 4 had pitched enough to not be able to pitch on Saturday, 1 was hurt, 1 was out of town on a college visit, 1 was held out to make sure we had a pitcher on Monday, 2 threw in the first game and the starting pitcher in the 2nd game got hurt in the 2nd inning. The last available player we had threw 5 innings.

This wasn't about developing pitchers, this was about not having enough players. Now, we could have throw one of the guys who was ineligible, but that would have caused a forfeit. We have, essentially, 7 pitchers. A high school team should not need to "develop" more than 7 pitchers. Should we ensure that every single player on our team is capable of pitching at the varsity level? That's insane.

 

[iowa12]

You either have too many games scheduled in a given week or you don't have enough pitching developed. Up to you to figure that out. But to point out the rules are too stringent is a very weak argument. It just goes to show the coaches struggling with the rule either overworked kids in the past trying to win at all costs, didn't manage their schedule correctly or didn't develop enough

 

[SSG T]

You either have too many games scheduled in a given week or you don't have enough pitching developed. Up to you to figure that out. But to point out the rules are too stringent is a very weak argument. It just goes to show the coaches struggling with the rule either overworked kids in the past trying to win at all costs, didn't manage their schedule correctly or didn't develop enough

I'm not the coach. As far as I know, they were expecting more players, but many that were out last year didn't go out this year. I have no idea when the rule was put in place compared to when the schedule was finalized. I do know they dropped 2 tourneys because of this, and (I assume) had they realized that they would hit the middle of June with 11 players, they would have dropped them all.

As for the part about not developing pitchers, what's the right number? In the past they've tried to have 2-3 in each class, which would give them (hopefully) 4-5 varsity level starters and a similar number of relievers. Here's the break down of the team right now.

5 Sr (4 of whom were regular pitchers last season)
2 Jr (one of whom was a regular starter last year
2 So (one pitched on the FR team, the other didn't play)
2 Fr (both pitched in Jr High and have pitched multiple games this year)

There was at least two players in each class from Fr-Jr that was expected to go out that didnt, from what I understand. At least one that isn't out was a pitcher at lower levels.

I'm sorry, but if the expectation is that you need 11 or more pitchers to play 21 games (which is what they've played this year) the rules need to be altered. 16 of our 21 games so far have been conference games, with 2 more this week, followed by a playoff game on saturday. Should we only play conference games?

I know the AD has said we're playing in no tourneys next season, but that doesn't fix the problem, only alleviates it a bit. We'll still end up with players who have no business pitching at the varsity level, pitching at the varsity level.

I've talked to parents this year, all at the 1A and 2A level, who have said their teams are done playing tourneys. They don't have enough kids capable of pitching, but they don't want to use their main pitchers for anything but conference games. So they're dropping the tourneys.

 

[iowa12]

There is your answer

 

[ORSKY1]

Why not use appropriate pitch counts with a table like pitch smarts' for the regular season that then move to a max number independent of age in the playoffs? This would allow all teams to have an equivalent number of pitches available per player in the post-season. It wouldn't likely hurt the kid because you haven't stressed an 8th 9th or 10th grader to overpitch during the season.

 

[HawkPT]

Pitchers at all levels are beginning to experience some level of fatigue by the end of the season. Making the rules more lenient then doesn't seem to be consistent with the primary goal of the rule in the first place.

 

[ORSKY1]

Pitchers at all levels are beginning to experience some level of fatigue by the end of the season. Making the rules more lenient then doesn't seem to be consistent with the primary goal of the rule in the first place.

Primarily the reason to allow is so that teams can compete on an equivalent basis. With the diminishing number of teams after each round the risk actually becomes smaller each day. There would only be a few elite pitchers who are younger that would be playing at all. Why not allow each school to use it's top pitchers regardless of age, but still on an overall pitch count. The goal is for the best teams to be competitive, not for just the oldest teams to be advantaged.

 

[HawkPT]

I understand what you're saying, but the goal is to prevent injuries now and in the future. Not competitive balance.

 

[ORSKY1]

I understand what you're saying, but the goal is to prevent injuries now and in the future. Not competitive balance.

I believe the goal is being met by implementing protective rules through the season and then realigning the rules for the short post season. This really impacts small schools obviously.

 

[iowa12]

Primarily the reason to allow is so that teams can compete on an equivalent basis. With the diminishing number of teams after each round the risk actually becomes smaller each day. There would only be a few elite pitchers who are younger that would be playing at all. Why not allow each school to use it's top pitchers regardless of age, but still on an overall pitch count. The goal is for the best teams to be competitive, not for just the oldest teams to be advantaged.

This is wrong on so many levels

 

[iowa12]

I understand what you're saying, but the goal is to prevent injuries now and in the future. Not competitive balance.

Bingo

 

[FarmFam]

I think the rule has been good. I wouldn't want the per day pitch count to be any higher. Our team has rarely thrown anyone over 90 in a game. We start to see performance issues when guys hit 80. We have won numerous games this year late in the game because opponents have left guys in too long. We have done a lot of damage to guys between that 90-110 mark. Meanwhile our guys seem to be fresher at the end of the year and will be playing at Principal next week. Were lucky to have depth and I understand some teams didn't have that. Had quite a few times when the pitcher from the other team can't shake hands in the line afterwards with his throwing arm. That seems to be a pretty good indicator that he threw too many pitches and injury could result or at least cause a prolonged recovery.

 

[Zowwy21]

This rule definitely adds a whole new dimension to the strategy of the game, which I will admit is somewhat fun. And I do agree that something is needed. I'm not 100% we have it completely right yet, but it is a great start.

Smaller schools are definitely impacted more. I don't believe it is realistic to think that schools with 15 kids out will have 6 competitive pitchers. That is an extremely high percentage of the players having to play a position that they may not have the natural gifts for.

 

[iowa12]

This rule definitely adds a whole new dimension to the strategy of the game, which I will admit is somewhat fun. And I do agree that something is needed. I'm not 100% we have it completely right yet, but it is a great start.

Smaller schools are definitely impacted more. I don't believe it is realistic to think that schools with 15 kids out will have 6 competitive pitchers. That is an extremely high percentage of the players having to play a position that they may not have the natural gifts for.

Then consolidate your school. If it is unhealthy for your arm, if you dont have enough competitive arms, then you don't. This isn't rocket science folks. You no longer have the option of throwing a kids arm off so you can win. I stand in applaud for that.

 

[HawkPT]

Then consolidate your school. If it is unhealthy for your arm, if you dont have enough competitive arms, then you don't. This isn't rocket science folks. You no longer have the option of throwing a kids arm off so you can win. I stand in applaud for that.

It could happen, but I'd be surprised if this led to more baseball school consolidations. It has already resulted in some schools playing less baseball, and that is likely to continue.

I'd rather have teams play more games even if it requires pitching lower quality pitchers and losing some games in the process. It's better for all players to play more rather than less. However, I'm sure some programs from time to time will just have very few pitchers that can even throw strikes and keep the games enjoyable. I'm sure that's frustrating.

 

[iowa12]

It could happen, but I'd be surprised if this led to more baseball school consolidations. It has already resulted in some schools playing less baseball, and that is likely to continue.

I'd rather have teams play more games even if it requires pitching lower quality pitchers and losing some games in the process. It's better for all players to play more rather than less. However, I'm sure some programs from time to time will just have very few pitchers that can even throw strikes and keep the games enjoyable. I'm sure that's frustrating.

Agreed. I just get super annoyed when coaches make the excuse of overthrowing a guy by saying they lack depth. To me, that is irrelevant

 

[HawkPT]

I found it interesting that Jackson Bennett for Dyersville Beckman threw 91 pitches on Monday at the state tournament in the quarterfinal win against Denver. Then on Saturday in the championship game against Kuemper he threw 91 again. That is a total of 182 pitches in the week, and players in grades 10-12 are limited to 180 in a week.

The official statement of pitch count rules on the IAHSAA website states that a pitcher can continue to pitch to the batter he is facing once he hits 110 pitches, which is the only stipulation of a "soft stop." By omission, I would consider any other limit a "hard stop."

The 2017 Baseball Manual on the IAHSAA website doesn't cover this scenario.

It would seem to me that Bennett was an ineligible pitcher once he threw the 90th pitch on Saturday, because it was his 181st pitch of the week. Therefore, Beckman should have been forced to forfeit.

Am I misinterpreting the rule?