City High did OK with the Derby transfers, they were a perennial power prior so that may not apply to your request rh.
Success of Private Schools
- Thread starter NoJustice
- Start date
From KCRG:
"And lookout for City High next season. The two Derby brothers have transferred from Iowa City West and Todd Lickliter's son will also be on the Little Hawk's roster.
"To have some of the top players in the state playing with you it can't get any better than that first got to get to state and then win state that's my number one goal," said Gatens."
Interesting article linked...some highlights:
"Since open enrollment became part of the Iowa education system with the 1990-91 school year, its popularity has soared. Fewer than 2,800 students statewide left their home school districts that first year, and that number has climbed to nearly 26,000 in 2010-11.
Open enrollment is permitted in 46 states, but policies dictating corresponding ineligibility following a transfer vary. Iowa's mandate is among the least stringent, one of only 10 states to require an open-enrolled student-athlete to sit out varsity competition for less than a full school year.
In athletics, much of the open-enrollment buzz surrounds Bettendorf. Such is the price for winning, particularly through the first 21 years of open enrollment.
"We can't apologize for kids wanting to come to our district because we have good programs or good facilities or good coaches," Bettendorf athletic director Mark Brooks said.
Based on numbers provided by the Bettendorf School District, open-enrolled students comprise 8 percent of the district's certified enrollment. According to an analysis by the Iowa Department of Education, 15 percent of the 2010 Bettendorf varsity football players open enrolled into the district.
"Kids solicit us," Bulldogs football coach Aaron Wiley said. "You hear rumors all the time, this kid's coming, that kid's coming. I've been around here a long time. Over the course of that time, it's been rumored that about every good player in the Quad-Cities is supposedly coming here. But I don't pay attention to those rumors at all. Until the kid is enrolled in our school, I don't give it any thought."
Open Enrollment in Iowa
"Since open enrollment became part of the Iowa education system with the 1990-91 school year, its popularity has soared. Fewer than 2,800 students statewide left their home school districts that first year, and that number has climbed to nearly 26,000 in 2010-11.
Open enrollment is permitted in 46 states, but policies dictating corresponding ineligibility following a transfer vary. Iowa's mandate is among the least stringent, one of only 10 states to require an open-enrolled student-athlete to sit out varsity competition for less than a full school year.
In athletics, much of the open-enrollment buzz surrounds Bettendorf. Such is the price for winning, particularly through the first 21 years of open enrollment.
"We can't apologize for kids wanting to come to our district because we have good programs or good facilities or good coaches," Bettendorf athletic director Mark Brooks said.
Based on numbers provided by the Bettendorf School District, open-enrolled students comprise 8 percent of the district's certified enrollment. According to an analysis by the Iowa Department of Education, 15 percent of the 2010 Bettendorf varsity football players open enrolled into the district.
"Kids solicit us," Bulldogs football coach Aaron Wiley said. "You hear rumors all the time, this kid's coming, that kid's coming. I've been around here a long time. Over the course of that time, it's been rumored that about every good player in the Quad-Cities is supposedly coming here. But I don't pay attention to those rumors at all. Until the kid is enrolled in our school, I don't give it any thought."
Open Enrollment in Iowa
I had asked for examples of OE being a factor in small school football. I was thinking up to 2A. When people talk about OE, Bettendorf is the first school that comes to mind, but I think everything evens out better the larger the class.
I do think you can make a comparison though between OE in large cities and private schools in large cities. Both have large populated areas where it is easy for students to attend. If you live in a city, you have several options within reasonable distance to choose from. The further you get from cities, the fewer options you have and the further you have drive to OE or attend a private school.
I do think you can make a comparison though between OE in large cities and private schools in large cities. Both have large populated areas where it is easy for students to attend. If you live in a city, you have several options within reasonable distance to choose from. The further you get from cities, the fewer options you have and the further you have drive to OE or attend a private school.
I have no idea what the numbers are for OE. That information is next to impossible to track down for those of us here, and even if we got raw numbers, there's no telling which kids transferring in are athletes. We could only offer anecdotal evidence, at best, and I would wager that no one here is familiar enough with more than a handful of school districts to provide even that much.
But, since you're so sure that the numbers indicate that something needs to be done and that the smaller classes highlight this in particular, take a closer look. I've gone back and tracked the playoffs since 1972 and counted up the number of quarterfinal, semifinal, runner-up and championship finishes for private schools in Classes 8man-4A.
Class 4A
Championships: 7 (4 by Dowling) 16.7%
Runners-up: 14 (7 by Dowling) 16.7%
Semifinal appearances: 39 (19 by Dowling) 23.2%
Quarterfinal appearances: 71 (21 by Dowling) 22.7%
Heelan was second in all categories, and would likely have had better numbers if they didn't have to play Dowling in the semifinals so many times. Outside of Dowling and Heelan, there were just 25 quarterfinal appearances, 9 semifinal appearances, 2 runner-up finishes and 1 championship. Xavier has made at least as far as the quarterfinals 5 times since opening in 1998 (that number was surprisingly low).
Class 3A
Championships: 5 (2 each for Heelan and Waterloo Columbus, 1 for CR Regis) 11.9%
Runners-up: 6 (3 by Heelan, 2 by Regis, 1 by Columbus) 14.3%
Semifinal appearances: 15 (6 by Regis, 5 by Heelan, 4 by Columbus) 8.9%
Quarterfinal appearances: 26 (6 each for Heelan, Regis and Columbus) 8.3%
Obviously, these numbers don't reflect the vice grip Heelan has had, since they only just joined a few years ago and have shown little sign of relinquishing their grasp on the class. But the numbers definitely go against the "unfair advantage" if you remove Heelan. And the recent dominance is explained by the fact that Heelan dropped down. They're a little different than the Regina/St. Albert/etc. crew that didn't really start having major success until the last decade or so. Heelan has been at or near the top ever since they entered 3A.
Class 2A
Championships:7 (by 5 different schools) 16.7%
Runners-up: 2 (Regina and LaSalle) 4.7%
Semifinal appearances: 15 (by 7 different schools) 8.9%
Quarterfinal appearances: 28 (by 10 different schools) 9%
Regina and Kuemper are the only two schools with sustained success past the quarterfinals, as both have 3 semifinal trips in Class 2A. Regina has won two titles and finished second once, while Kuemper won their only title game appearance last season. There has been no dominant private school in this class. Instead, a number of them have reached at least the quarterfinals just a few times. Columbus, Garrigan and LaSalle combined for just 7 quarterfinal appearances, but they made those trips count, as they won 4 championships. That sounds a lot like schools that had everything come together for a very brief run, not dynasties.
Class 1A
Championships: 7 (all by Regina and CBSA) 16.7%
Runners-up: 8 (4 by Regina and CBSA) 19%
Semifinal appearances: 20 (15 by Regina and CBSA) 11.9%
Quarterfinal appearances: 27 (18 by Regina and CBSA) 8.7%
So much for dominance by private schools in smaller classes. Looks more to me like there are just two really good programs, not a systemic problem. Des Moines Christian, Pella Christian, St. Edmond, CR LaSalle, Newman, Garrigan and Gehlan all spent time in 1A, yet they all combined for 0 titles, 4 runner-up finishes, 5 semifinal appearances and 9 quarterfinal appearances. Not particularly impressive at all, especially for a group that supposedly has such a significant and unfair advantage.
Class A
Championships: 1 (LeMars Gehlen, 1995) 3%
Runners-up: 1 (Mason City Newman, 2009) 3%
Semifinal appearances: 7 (4 for Gehlen, 3 for Newman) 5.3%
Quarterfinal appearances: 13 (6 by Gehlen, 4 of which came in the early-mid 90s; 5 by Newman; 2 by Garrigan) 4.9%
This is definitely the most public school-dominated class in the state. The fact that Emmetsburg and West Lyon have both spent time in this class is part of the reason why. Gehlan had a run of great success in the early to mid-90s and won the title in '95. But they haven't approached that level since. Newman went on a similar run for a few years recently, but they came back to earth the last couple years and don't look ready to bounce back next year.
8-Man
Championships: 2 (Don Bosco, Remsen-St. Mary's) 14.3%
Runners-up: 1 (Don Bosco) 7.1%
Semifinal appearances: 5 (3 for Remsen, 2 for Don Bosco) 8.9%
Quarterfinal appearances: 6 (3 for Remsen, 2 for Don Bosco and 1 for Grandview Park Baptist) 5.4%
By nature, this is the most transient class. Adair-Casey and Lenox are the closest things to perennial powerhouses in this class, but neither has racked up a ton of titles and both will be closer to the bottom than the top for at least the next few years. Lenox hasn't been anything special for a couple years and don't look to improve, and Adair-Casey's numbers and talent are going to slip after losing a pair of great senior classes the last two years.
So there aren't really any dynasties here, public or private. That's what happens when you're dealing with such low enrollment. Armstrong-Ringsted was very tough for a few years when they had Tyler Tonderum. Fremont was the same way with Nate Meier, and I think Don Bosco is destined for a similar fate without Jake Hogan. They'll still be solid and make the playoffs, but I'm putting my money for the quarters/semis/finals elsewhere.
Summary
Looks to me like Class 4A is where everything goes haywire, not the lower classes. In Classes 8man-4A, private schools have won 29 championships (13.5% of the total); they've had 32 runners-up (14.9%); 101 semifinal trips (11.7%); and 171 quarterfinal appearances (10.5%). None of those numbers are outrageously disproportionate to the number of schools, but then consider that Class 4A accounts for nearly as many quarterfinal appearances as any other three classes COMBINED. Class 4A has had 21 championship game appearances, over a third of the total number of private school title game appearances, and 39 semifinal appearances (38.6% of all private school semi trips).
Looking at all four classes, only a handful of schools stand out for their success: Dowling, Heelan, Xavier/Regis/LaSalle (I'm counting those schools all as one), St. Albert and Regina. Columbus, Garrigan and Kuemper are a tier below that top group, although you might be able to make a decent case for putting Columbus in with the elites (but I think those top five have pretty clearly separated themselves from the others).
Are we really suggesting that 5 elite programs, as borne out over the last 42 years, represent a dire problem that needs solving (even over the last decade, those are the only programs to enjoy consistent success)? How few do there need to be before public school whiners are satisfied? 3? 2? 1? 0?
I apologize for the length of this post, but the facts bear out that there isn't a major problem here. As rh keeps saying, championships shouldn't be the only criteria (although if private schools weren't winning titles, people probably wouldn't be pitching a fit). So you've now got all the numbers for any meaningful playoff berth (quarters or better), and they don't support your argument.
This post was edited on 4/11 2:06 AM by tm3308
But, since you're so sure that the numbers indicate that something needs to be done and that the smaller classes highlight this in particular, take a closer look. I've gone back and tracked the playoffs since 1972 and counted up the number of quarterfinal, semifinal, runner-up and championship finishes for private schools in Classes 8man-4A.
Class 4A
Championships: 7 (4 by Dowling) 16.7%
Runners-up: 14 (7 by Dowling) 16.7%
Semifinal appearances: 39 (19 by Dowling) 23.2%
Quarterfinal appearances: 71 (21 by Dowling) 22.7%
Heelan was second in all categories, and would likely have had better numbers if they didn't have to play Dowling in the semifinals so many times. Outside of Dowling and Heelan, there were just 25 quarterfinal appearances, 9 semifinal appearances, 2 runner-up finishes and 1 championship. Xavier has made at least as far as the quarterfinals 5 times since opening in 1998 (that number was surprisingly low).
Class 3A
Championships: 5 (2 each for Heelan and Waterloo Columbus, 1 for CR Regis) 11.9%
Runners-up: 6 (3 by Heelan, 2 by Regis, 1 by Columbus) 14.3%
Semifinal appearances: 15 (6 by Regis, 5 by Heelan, 4 by Columbus) 8.9%
Quarterfinal appearances: 26 (6 each for Heelan, Regis and Columbus) 8.3%
Obviously, these numbers don't reflect the vice grip Heelan has had, since they only just joined a few years ago and have shown little sign of relinquishing their grasp on the class. But the numbers definitely go against the "unfair advantage" if you remove Heelan. And the recent dominance is explained by the fact that Heelan dropped down. They're a little different than the Regina/St. Albert/etc. crew that didn't really start having major success until the last decade or so. Heelan has been at or near the top ever since they entered 3A.
Class 2A
Championships:7 (by 5 different schools) 16.7%
Runners-up: 2 (Regina and LaSalle) 4.7%
Semifinal appearances: 15 (by 7 different schools) 8.9%
Quarterfinal appearances: 28 (by 10 different schools) 9%
Regina and Kuemper are the only two schools with sustained success past the quarterfinals, as both have 3 semifinal trips in Class 2A. Regina has won two titles and finished second once, while Kuemper won their only title game appearance last season. There has been no dominant private school in this class. Instead, a number of them have reached at least the quarterfinals just a few times. Columbus, Garrigan and LaSalle combined for just 7 quarterfinal appearances, but they made those trips count, as they won 4 championships. That sounds a lot like schools that had everything come together for a very brief run, not dynasties.
Class 1A
Championships: 7 (all by Regina and CBSA) 16.7%
Runners-up: 8 (4 by Regina and CBSA) 19%
Semifinal appearances: 20 (15 by Regina and CBSA) 11.9%
Quarterfinal appearances: 27 (18 by Regina and CBSA) 8.7%
So much for dominance by private schools in smaller classes. Looks more to me like there are just two really good programs, not a systemic problem. Des Moines Christian, Pella Christian, St. Edmond, CR LaSalle, Newman, Garrigan and Gehlan all spent time in 1A, yet they all combined for 0 titles, 4 runner-up finishes, 5 semifinal appearances and 9 quarterfinal appearances. Not particularly impressive at all, especially for a group that supposedly has such a significant and unfair advantage.
Class A
Championships: 1 (LeMars Gehlen, 1995) 3%
Runners-up: 1 (Mason City Newman, 2009) 3%
Semifinal appearances: 7 (4 for Gehlen, 3 for Newman) 5.3%
Quarterfinal appearances: 13 (6 by Gehlen, 4 of which came in the early-mid 90s; 5 by Newman; 2 by Garrigan) 4.9%
This is definitely the most public school-dominated class in the state. The fact that Emmetsburg and West Lyon have both spent time in this class is part of the reason why. Gehlan had a run of great success in the early to mid-90s and won the title in '95. But they haven't approached that level since. Newman went on a similar run for a few years recently, but they came back to earth the last couple years and don't look ready to bounce back next year.
8-Man
Championships: 2 (Don Bosco, Remsen-St. Mary's) 14.3%
Runners-up: 1 (Don Bosco) 7.1%
Semifinal appearances: 5 (3 for Remsen, 2 for Don Bosco) 8.9%
Quarterfinal appearances: 6 (3 for Remsen, 2 for Don Bosco and 1 for Grandview Park Baptist) 5.4%
By nature, this is the most transient class. Adair-Casey and Lenox are the closest things to perennial powerhouses in this class, but neither has racked up a ton of titles and both will be closer to the bottom than the top for at least the next few years. Lenox hasn't been anything special for a couple years and don't look to improve, and Adair-Casey's numbers and talent are going to slip after losing a pair of great senior classes the last two years.
So there aren't really any dynasties here, public or private. That's what happens when you're dealing with such low enrollment. Armstrong-Ringsted was very tough for a few years when they had Tyler Tonderum. Fremont was the same way with Nate Meier, and I think Don Bosco is destined for a similar fate without Jake Hogan. They'll still be solid and make the playoffs, but I'm putting my money for the quarters/semis/finals elsewhere.
Summary
Looks to me like Class 4A is where everything goes haywire, not the lower classes. In Classes 8man-4A, private schools have won 29 championships (13.5% of the total); they've had 32 runners-up (14.9%); 101 semifinal trips (11.7%); and 171 quarterfinal appearances (10.5%). None of those numbers are outrageously disproportionate to the number of schools, but then consider that Class 4A accounts for nearly as many quarterfinal appearances as any other three classes COMBINED. Class 4A has had 21 championship game appearances, over a third of the total number of private school title game appearances, and 39 semifinal appearances (38.6% of all private school semi trips).
Looking at all four classes, only a handful of schools stand out for their success: Dowling, Heelan, Xavier/Regis/LaSalle (I'm counting those schools all as one), St. Albert and Regina. Columbus, Garrigan and Kuemper are a tier below that top group, although you might be able to make a decent case for putting Columbus in with the elites (but I think those top five have pretty clearly separated themselves from the others).
Are we really suggesting that 5 elite programs, as borne out over the last 42 years, represent a dire problem that needs solving (even over the last decade, those are the only programs to enjoy consistent success)? How few do there need to be before public school whiners are satisfied? 3? 2? 1? 0?
I apologize for the length of this post, but the facts bear out that there isn't a major problem here. As rh keeps saying, championships shouldn't be the only criteria (although if private schools weren't winning titles, people probably wouldn't be pitching a fit). So you've now got all the numbers for any meaningful playoff berth (quarters or better), and they don't support your argument.
This post was edited on 4/11 2:06 AM by tm3308
The classes sure have changed since we had only 4 classes. Question, when there were 4 classes, how many schools comprised 1A compared to 4A. What was the % of private schools in 1A compared to the other classes? Also we have had several teams choose to play up a class in the past, which is no longer the case now.
Again, I am more for recent history. When the isssue is on the table, schools who want change are not goingt o listen to the 1972 argument. I see the evolution, or how you would like to put it "cycle". The cycle is long and is not going away under the current format. The current format is going to change.
Again, I am more for recent history. When the isssue is on the table, schools who want change are not goingt o listen to the 1972 argument. I see the evolution, or how you would like to put it "cycle". The cycle is long and is not going away under the current format. The current format is going to change.
That's your opinion, not fact. The 30-year cycle that saw Harlan and Emmetsburg pile up titles left and right has faded away, so why can't the one that's seeing a few private schools enjoy a lot of success? Maybe the format is going to change, but that doesn't mean it should.
I don't know what the percentage of 1A schools were private in every season, and there's no way to find out. I do know that far more private schools have made the playoffs in 1A and 2A than in any other class over the years. Like I said, Regina, CBSA, St. Edmond, Pella Christian, LaSalle, Newman, Gehlen and Garrigan have all made the playoffs in 1A (Regina, CBSA, St. Ed, LaSalle, Garrigan, Beckman, Columbus, Kuemper, Western Christian and Notre Dame are the private schools that have reached at least the quarterfinals in 2A). Other than LaSalle, all of those schools have been in 1A at some point during the last 10 years. Class 1A at least appears to have had more private schools than any other class, so it makes sense that they'd get a little bigger share of the titles. And again, we're only talking about two elite programs doing nearly all the damage, one of which (CBSA) is no longer in the class.
It's also worth noting that CBSA has had success in 2A and 1A, and made one quarterfinal trip in 3A back in the day. That's just a good program that's got a tradition of winning, but it didn't hit its peak until they dropped to 1A.
Again, you look at the history of football in this state, and five private school programs really stand out. You look at the last decade or so, and the same five programs stand clearly ahead of the rest. We don't need a multiplier. Not when there is apparently only one "problem" class, and solving that problem moves two schools up a class. Two schools is not a systemic issue. If the coaches and AD's whine loudly enough because they can't seem to beat those two schools, maybe change will indeed come. That doesn't mean it's the right decision.
I think the biggest gripes you will find is in the lower classes (2A-1A) for now, but after 3A this year when Xavie\Assumption vs Heelan is the show in the dome you will hear a large uprising from the 3A crowd. You have 2 teams that have been very successful at the highest level of play in the state for several years (not titles but a +.500 record) drop to "where our numbers dictate us"... just didn't sit well with many and most coaches will not publicly state "BS" but certainly discuss it behind closed doors.
just skimming this last page but it appears too many are stuck on talking about "championships". It is deeper than just winning the championship games. In fact, basing the discussion solely on that (the championship game) makes an inaccurate picture of what is really going on.
I applaud you for being able to extract facts from opinions. For example, after each factual breakdown of classes, you insert your opinion. Your opinion is to consider everything from 1972, mine isn't. And IMO there isn't any piece of evidence you included that wouldn't warrant a multiplier.
The following is data from the past 5 years. I counted up the private schools in each class.
2013[/B]
4A- [/B]4 schools, 50% made QTRS, 50% made Semis, 50% made championship game
3A- [/B]1 school, 100% Qtrs, 100% semis, 100% finals
2A- [/B]4 schools, 25% qtrs, 25% semis, 25% finals
1A- [/B]7 schools, 29% qtrs, 29% semis, 29% finals
A-[/B] 2 schools, 50% qtrs, no further
Total- [/B]18 schools, 39% qtrs, 33% semis, 33% finals
2012[/B]
4A- [/B]4 schools, 50% qtrs., 25% semis, 25% finals
3A- [/B]1 school, 100%, 100%, 100%
2A- [/B]4 schools, 50%, 50%, none
1A- [/B]7 schools, 29%, 29%, 29%
A- [/B]2 schools, none
Total- [/B]18 schools, 39%, 33%, 22%
2011[/B]
4A- [/B]4 schools, 25%, none, none
3A-[/B] 1 school, none, none, none
2A- [/B]8 schools, 38%, 25%, 13%
1A- [/B]2 schools, 50%, 50%, 50%
A- [/B]4 schools, 50%, 25%, none
Total- [/B]19 schools, 37%, 21%, 11%
2010[/B]
4A- [/B]4 schools, 25, 25, 25
3A- [/B]1, 100, 100, 100
2A- [/B]8, 25, 13, 13
1A-[/B]2, 50, 50, none
A- [/B]4, 50, 25, none
Total- [/B]19, 37%, 26%, 16%
2009[/B]
4A- [/B]4, 50, 50, none
3A- [/B]1, 100, none, none
2A- [/B]6, 50, none, none
1A- [/B]4, 25, 25, 25
A- [/B]4, 50, 25, 25
Total- [/B]19, 47, 22, 11
Those are some pretty impressive accomplishments by private schools, congrats. Now, some of you may think that number is low. Without going through every class and every year, compare 2013 1A if 29% of Private schools isn't impressive to you. That year the % of public schools to make it was 12% to qtrs, 4% to semis, and none to finals. The highest they could have achieved if no private school made it to qtrs would have been 16%, 8%, and 4% to finals. For some reason, which is highly debatable, your odds greatly increase if you are a private school. Weird.
2013[/B]
4A- [/B]4 schools, 50% made QTRS, 50% made Semis, 50% made championship game
3A- [/B]1 school, 100% Qtrs, 100% semis, 100% finals
2A- [/B]4 schools, 25% qtrs, 25% semis, 25% finals
1A- [/B]7 schools, 29% qtrs, 29% semis, 29% finals
A-[/B] 2 schools, 50% qtrs, no further
Total- [/B]18 schools, 39% qtrs, 33% semis, 33% finals
2012[/B]
4A- [/B]4 schools, 50% qtrs., 25% semis, 25% finals
3A- [/B]1 school, 100%, 100%, 100%
2A- [/B]4 schools, 50%, 50%, none
1A- [/B]7 schools, 29%, 29%, 29%
A- [/B]2 schools, none
Total- [/B]18 schools, 39%, 33%, 22%
2011[/B]
4A- [/B]4 schools, 25%, none, none
3A-[/B] 1 school, none, none, none
2A- [/B]8 schools, 38%, 25%, 13%
1A- [/B]2 schools, 50%, 50%, 50%
A- [/B]4 schools, 50%, 25%, none
Total- [/B]19 schools, 37%, 21%, 11%
2010[/B]
4A- [/B]4 schools, 25, 25, 25
3A- [/B]1, 100, 100, 100
2A- [/B]8, 25, 13, 13
1A-[/B]2, 50, 50, none
A- [/B]4, 50, 25, none
Total- [/B]19, 37%, 26%, 16%
2009[/B]
4A- [/B]4, 50, 50, none
3A- [/B]1, 100, none, none
2A- [/B]6, 50, none, none
1A- [/B]4, 25, 25, 25
A- [/B]4, 50, 25, 25
Total- [/B]19, 47, 22, 11
Those are some pretty impressive accomplishments by private schools, congrats. Now, some of you may think that number is low. Without going through every class and every year, compare 2013 1A if 29% of Private schools isn't impressive to you. That year the % of public schools to make it was 12% to qtrs, 4% to semis, and none to finals. The highest they could have achieved if no private school made it to qtrs would have been 16%, 8%, and 4% to finals. For some reason, which is highly debatable, your odds greatly increase if you are a private school. Weird.
Well hey, that excludes St. Edmond then because we've only been to the Qtrs twice in almost 60 years of football.
Btw, your % or private schools list is a flawed argument on general principle.
Your data can't possibly factor in that the majority of those private schools "boosting" the percentages are often the same ones. Why? Because they are very good at that sport. They have built up a solid program, same as any public school that traditionally makes it to state does.
If the only difference between Solon's run and Regina's run is that Regina is a private school, then that isn't any kind of evidence at all. You need a little bit more than just "they're a private school, so we need a multiplier!"
And you haven't provided it.....because you can't.
.......and because you know it will never happen, as we discussed above.
/thread
Pre-Season rankings (this is what I am talking about with privates dominating the lower classes):
Boys:
1A
1. Regina, Iowa City (7) 1-0-0 1
2. Mid-Prairie, Wellman 3-0-0
3. Beckman Catholic, Dyersville 2
4. Danville 2-0-0
5. Columbus Catholic, Waterloo 0-0-0 4
2A
1. Xavier
3A
1. IC West
Girls:
1A
1. Davenport Assumption 19-1
2. Sioux City Bishop Heelan 17-1
3. Nevada 13-6
4. Iowa City Regina 12-3
5. Waterloo Columbus Catholic 13-6
2A
Xavier (8x Defending state champ, why on earth would a program not opt up to compete, especially when you play a large school schedule all season?!)
3A
Dowling, West Des Moines
It evens out at the larger classes but the smaller classes privates dominate.
Boys:
1A
1. Regina, Iowa City (7) 1-0-0 1
2. Mid-Prairie, Wellman 3-0-0
3. Beckman Catholic, Dyersville 2
4. Danville 2-0-0
5. Columbus Catholic, Waterloo 0-0-0 4
2A
1. Xavier
3A
1. IC West
Girls:
1A
1. Davenport Assumption 19-1
2. Sioux City Bishop Heelan 17-1
3. Nevada 13-6
4. Iowa City Regina 12-3
5. Waterloo Columbus Catholic 13-6
2A
Xavier (8x Defending state champ, why on earth would a program not opt up to compete, especially when you play a large school schedule all season?!)
3A
Dowling, West Des Moines
It evens out at the larger classes but the smaller classes privates dominate.
I wouldn't call Assumption a "very" successful program in 4A. They haven't been bad by any stretch, but they aren't one of the top teams in 4A, either. Just because they CAN be respectable in 4A doesn't mean they SHOULD be there. I'm sure Harlan, Emmetsburg, etc. could easily have been competitive if they'd played up a class, too. Any team that's great at one level would likely be at least decent at the next level.
Xavier has definitely been successful, and IMO they are the only school out of the three dropping to 3A that people might have a legitimate beef with. But Wahlert and Assumption weren't overly successful in 4A (heck, Wahlert has been just bad for awhile now), and their numbers put them firmly in 3A (it wasn't that long ago Assumption was a 2A-sized school).
And honestly, the issue only seems to apply to schools that are in one of the major population centers (Des Moines/West Des Moines), Cedar Rapids/IowaCity, Davenport, Sioux City and Council Bluffs). But there are plenty of private schools, even in smaller classes, that don't enjoy that much success.
Going back three years, I've counted 21 private schools that are 2A or smaller. Of those 21, Regina, Kuemper, Beckman, St. Edmond, St. Albert, Pella Christian, Garrigan, Newman and Don Bosco posted at least two years with winning records. Of those schools, only six finished two seasons with 8 or more wins. Nine of the 21 schools never finished better than .500, including Notre Dame, who was already sharing with West Burlington (I believe Notre Dame will play 8-man on its own this year). Most of the schools posted middling records in the 4-6 win range.
Looking at the population bases, you've got Iowa City, Carroll, Dyersville, Fort Dodge, Council Bluffs, Pella, Mason City, Algona and Waterloo. Some of you might say that their location gives them an unfair advantage and in some cases that's probably true. But Council Bluffs is also home to Heartland Christian, who is terrible (their reporting was incomplete, but all indications suggest that they rarely, if ever, won a game in the last three years). Waterloo Columbus is a program that actually has some good history, and they went 1-8, 0-9, 2-7 the last three years, despite having the same metro area to pull from as an upstart Don Bosco program. Grandview Park Baptist, Ankeny Christian and Cedar Valley Christian combined to win just 11 games over those three years, with GVPB winning 10 of them.
There is no way it's right to work the system so that ONLY the good private schools are affected by any changes, and it's clear that population base isn't necessarily the primary factor in a private school's success or failure. And even if it were, you'd have to set some kind of dividers, which would be no less arbitrary than what's currently in place. The real key to success is having a great coaching staff/parental support. And I'm sorry, but I don't think the state has any business punishing schools for having good coaches and good parents, just so schools with worse coaches and less-involved parents can win a few more games.
So you're gonna try to convince us that private schools are evil by using soccer as your weapon of choice?
Might have something to do with the fact that just one school can throw off the numbers drastically. Even if just Heelan, Dowling, and Xavier were the ones advancing to the quarters or better, private schools would STILL have a higher success rate than public schools.
You're making it all the more clear that you won't be happy until private schools stop having much of any success. Since, going by the numbers, even three great programs out of 340 schools is too many.
I know they are soccer rankings - I was making the point that it is MORE than just football. 18 of the class 1A schools are private (5 ranked in the top 6) which means that there 38 others (1 ranked in the top 6). Soccer only has 3 classfications and for the girls the private schools own the top spot in each class. For the boys, the privates own 2 of 3 top spots in their classes.
Do you believe that those listed in the earlier post could play up one class and still be competitive (+500 record)?
As already pointed out, many rural schools don't even offer soccer. Soccer is a little bit more of an affluent sport in Iowa, which means far fewer schools participate. I don't see you pitching a fit about Solon, Gilbert, Nevada, Bondurant-Farrar or Center Point-Urbana all being ranked in 1A (girls). Those are all 2A/3A-sized schools for other sports, so why don't THEY play up? How about in 2A; Ankeny, Ankeny Centennial, North Scott and Pleasant Valley all have AT LEAST 213 more BEDS students than Xavier, yet they're also in Class 2A.
Another strong point is the level of success for private schools don't change related with the class they are in. They were just as successful when the majority of them were in 2A compared to 1A. So again, I don't believe private schools are evil and I don't think adding a multiplier will inhibit their success, just make games more competitive. Solon, a 3A school, is a big rival of Regina. For those from Regina, do you have a rival in 1A?
It would be nice to see the rivalry then. When was the last time Regina played West Branch outside the 2 years they were in the same district? Have they ever played non-district game? Being so close to each other it is really odd you guys don't ever play each other, especially being such big rivals. How many times have you played each other in the last 10, 15 years?
The fact that some of the private schools COULD compete if they played up, it's that they shouldn't be forced to. Plenty of public schools COULD compete at the next level, even when population/enrollment vary wildly (I'd have taken West Lyon over most of the teams in 1A-3A). But they shouldn't be forced to, either.
RkHemp: Just tell us the 1 school you want moved so we can stop this thread. There have been multiple posts to argue your point and all I see you doing is changing the parameters. So let's cut to the chase and tell us the 1 school you want moved so your team can have some success. Your points don't hold much water and we need to move on.
Or, more accurately, the advantages of being a 4A-sized school in the Des Moines suburbs. Valley, Dowling, Waukee, SEPand Ankeny have been pretty darn good (now after the split, it looks like Centennial will be the one that takes over up north). Urbandale and Johnston aren't bad, either.
So you think this record is "average" then?
Assumption High School for the past 11 seasons a record of 80?33 (3 losses per season on average vs schools 3-5 times their size), with 2 MAC Championships and nine play-off appearances. If that is "not very successful" then I guess I am at a loss.
Assumption High School for the past 11 seasons a record of 80?33 (3 losses per season on average vs schools 3-5 times their size), with 2 MAC Championships and nine play-off appearances. If that is "not very successful" then I guess I am at a loss.
Re: these schools in other sports, I've seen this pointed out before and it is easily refuted. Each one of those schools (not 100% sure about CPU) have been a 3A school (in other sports) and it is therefore a non issue.
That's the big difference. N Polk, Solon, Gilbert, Nevada, Bondurant, Harlan etc. all are or will be soon 3A....the problem takes care of itself.
Then if winning 2 MAC championships and having several other "runner-up" MAC finishes and a winning record 9-11years vs schools with 3-5x the enrollent they is just "good" what on earth is your "very good" view? They are playing schools that have 3-5 times the number of students to choose from and beating more than losing.
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