The IAHSAA website shows tonight's result as a 7-0 Heelan win over LeMars by forfeit. What's the story with this game?
Heelan/LeMars Forfeit?
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I listened to it on the radio. It was played. Went I think 11 innings, with Lemars scoring 8 to Heelan's 5. Is there a limit on the number of innings you can pitch, cause I heard it had something to do with that, but not sure.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Posted from Rivals Mobile
LeMars played a game on Monday, defeating Sergeant Bluff Luton 4-3 in 11 innings. This is important because Parker Rolfes pitched the first 9 innings of that game.
LeMars won the game tonight against Bishop Heelan 8-5 in 11 innings. Parker Rolfes pitched the final 5 innings of this game, also.
By rule, when a pitcher pitches 9 innings, he needs two calendar days of rest. He did not get that in this instance.
I was at the game. It was insane. Heelan was up 2-0 heading into the seventh when LeMars took a 3-2 lead. Heelan tied it in the bottom to send it into extras. In the 9th, LeMars tacked on two more runs to take a 5-3 lead. Heelan again tied it. In the 11th, LeMars scored 3 runs to take a 8-5 lead and that was the final. The entire community of LeMars began to celebrate. It was the best feeling, watching the guys on the field so happy and smiles all around.
Then we get home and are crushed by hearing that LeMars is being forced to forfeit the game because of this. I have no idea how the coaches could have missed this. It is just something that should have never happened.
Heelan moves on with a 7-0 forfeit win and LeMars kids are done for the year.
My heart is broken for these guys.
LeMars won the game tonight against Bishop Heelan 8-5 in 11 innings. Parker Rolfes pitched the final 5 innings of this game, also.
By rule, when a pitcher pitches 9 innings, he needs two calendar days of rest. He did not get that in this instance.
I was at the game. It was insane. Heelan was up 2-0 heading into the seventh when LeMars took a 3-2 lead. Heelan tied it in the bottom to send it into extras. In the 9th, LeMars tacked on two more runs to take a 5-3 lead. Heelan again tied it. In the 11th, LeMars scored 3 runs to take a 8-5 lead and that was the final. The entire community of LeMars began to celebrate. It was the best feeling, watching the guys on the field so happy and smiles all around.
Then we get home and are crushed by hearing that LeMars is being forced to forfeit the game because of this. I have no idea how the coaches could have missed this. It is just something that should have never happened.
Heelan moves on with a 7-0 forfeit win and LeMars kids are done for the year.
My heart is broken for these guys.
Lemars threw a pitcher that pitched 9 innings on Monday so he was ineligible to pitch. A great game that had to end like that. Feel bad for Lemars!
I think a better question is do you think a kid who pitched 14 innings and his team won should be punished. I know they have rules, but people make mistakes. If anything let them go to state with the stipulation that he can't pitch at state. They still earned and won the trip to state. They deserve it.(Coming from someone on the East side of the state with no preference of these two schools.)
What makes this even more heartbreaking is that it is being reported that the LeMars' coach, unsure of the eligibility rules, actually asked the umpire if the pitcher in question was eligible. The umpire told him yes, he was eligible.
This is not sitting well with the very proud community of LeMars. Heelan should have protested the minute the first pitch was thrown. Instead the waited until the end of the game, until after they presented the state qualifying banner, and until after the LeMars fans celebrated on the field. THEN the coaches protested the loss.
I understand that they have rules, but this is just so heartbreaking. Heelan got beat by a pitcher that the rules state was "too tired" to pitch.
Twitter is absolutely blowing up about this, and there are already articles in the Sioux City Journal and the Des Moines Register. Meanwhile, the LeMars players and fans are sitting at home heartbroken.
I just simply cannot believe this happened.
This is not sitting well with the very proud community of LeMars. Heelan should have protested the minute the first pitch was thrown. Instead the waited until the end of the game, until after they presented the state qualifying banner, and until after the LeMars fans celebrated on the field. THEN the coaches protested the loss.
I understand that they have rules, but this is just so heartbreaking. Heelan got beat by a pitcher that the rules state was "too tired" to pitch.
Twitter is absolutely blowing up about this, and there are already articles in the Sioux City Journal and the Des Moines Register. Meanwhile, the LeMars players and fans are sitting at home heartbroken.
I just simply cannot believe this happened.
Rolfes tweeted after the game that the umpire said that it was alright. I understand that coaches are supposed to know the rule, but if an umpire is doing a SUBSTATE game, they should definitely have a grasp on it. Must be sickening to be those players and Coach Eckstaine must feel horrible. I never understood why the state uses innings pitched instead of pitch count. If the state wants to save arms they should use a more accurate measure.Drove by the LeMars field around midnight and saw all of the LeMars players still at the field with the lights on. Very humbling sight. I understand rules are rules, but the Bulldogs won that game (it was a fantastic one) and should be going to Des Moines.
I've seen a few articles lately about the push to change the rule for pitchers to pitch count rather than innings. The question is how many is too many and within what specific amount of time (i.e. how much time is required for rest based on pitch count as opposed to innings)?
You have to feel horrible for those kids but this rule is so confusing. If the Lemars pitcher would have pitched 7 on Monday he would have been able to go 9 in this game. Since he went 9 on Monday he was not eligible to throw until Thursday. Here is more confusion.....If he would have pitched 2 innings on Monday and lets say they played Tuesday and he threw another 2 innings he would have to rest 2 days and not be able to pitch until Friday. Remember another rule, 1 pitch constitutes and inning pitched. Even more....If he threw 8 innings on a Saturday ( the week starts over on Monday) then he could pitch 8 on Monday and 8 on Wednesday for a total of 16 for the week as long as he doesn't throw 9 on one night ??? Confusing and not really protective of young arms in my opinion. How would you monitor pitch counts though. Sounds like it would be hard to do.
The kids have to be devastated and the umpires should know the rule. It is written right on the back side of every lineup card the coaches hand in to the umpires. Hard to believe this could happen in a 3A or a 4A game with the number of kids they have to choose from but have seen it pushed to the limit in several 1 and 2A games. I feel so bad for those players !!!!
The kids have to be devastated and the umpires should know the rule. It is written right on the back side of every lineup card the coaches hand in to the umpires. Hard to believe this could happen in a 3A or a 4A game with the number of kids they have to choose from but have seen it pushed to the limit in several 1 and 2A games. I feel so bad for those players !!!!
I may be mistaken, but, I don't believe this falls under the jurisdiction of the umpire. The umpire shouldn't even be asked this question. The rule is fairly simple. Maybe it isn't what is best for kids' arms, but it is simple. The coach should know the rule and he knows how many innings his player has pitched. It isn't the umpire's job to know how many innings all the kids have pitched. Should the umpire know the rule when presented the information, probably. But in all honesty, call Boone and ask, I don't think it is their job in this instance. I do feel sorry for the kids, but the umpire is not the one to blame.
"Here is more confusion.....If he would have pitched 2 innings on Monday and lets say they played Tuesday and he threw another 2 innings he would have to rest 2 days and not be able to pitch until Friday."
It is not that confusing if you read and understand the 3 rules. Also, just a correction about this scenario, the total on 2 consecutive days would need to be more than 4 innings in order for the required 2 days rest. So a pitcher could pitch 2 innings each day for all 7 days of a week and be OK because the total on any 2 consecutive days was not more than 4 innings and the pitcher's grand total for innings pitched would be 14...less than the 16 total allowed for a week. Not saying right or wrong for pitcher's arm health, just saying that is the rule.
Finally, the IHSAA makes it very clear at the beginning of the season that keeping track of the pitching limitation rules is not the job of the umpire. It is the coaches responsibility. If I were the coach and had any question, probably should have contacted the IHSAA on Tuesday to get clarification on when a pitcher can next pitch. Just one last thing, it is also not the job of the opposing team to keep track of the opposing team pitching limitations.
It really is too bad for LeMars and you feel for the kids, coaches and community as they won it on the field, but not within the rules that we all must play by.
It is not that confusing if you read and understand the 3 rules. Also, just a correction about this scenario, the total on 2 consecutive days would need to be more than 4 innings in order for the required 2 days rest. So a pitcher could pitch 2 innings each day for all 7 days of a week and be OK because the total on any 2 consecutive days was not more than 4 innings and the pitcher's grand total for innings pitched would be 14...less than the 16 total allowed for a week. Not saying right or wrong for pitcher's arm health, just saying that is the rule.
Finally, the IHSAA makes it very clear at the beginning of the season that keeping track of the pitching limitation rules is not the job of the umpire. It is the coaches responsibility. If I were the coach and had any question, probably should have contacted the IHSAA on Tuesday to get clarification on when a pitcher can next pitch. Just one last thing, it is also not the job of the opposing team to keep track of the opposing team pitching limitations.
It really is too bad for LeMars and you feel for the kids, coaches and community as they won it on the field, but not within the rules that we all must play by.
Agree with you 100% that it is not the umpires fault and the coach should know the rule. But, if the coach asks the umpire about a rule during the game hopefully he should be able to help clarify the rule. Especially in a Sub-State game !!!! It is ultimately the coaches job to know but many things are going through his mind at this point in a game. If he asked the ump then he should have been able to help in my opinion. The DH re-entry rule gets questioned many times over the course of a season and you can get different interpretations depending on who is umpiring. Not trying to blame the umpires but could you imagine winning a sub-state game and going to state for the first time in school history only to have this happen ?? You really have to feel bad for everyone involved. I don't think I would feel good about going to state this way either if I was a Heelen player. Just a bad deal all the way around.
Just a thought for everyone.......If LeMars would have pitched someone different (#3 pitcher) than Rolfes (#1 or #2 with Borchers), Would the game have went 11 innings? Could Heelan have scored a lot more going into a different pitcher? Would LeMars still have won? I know, a lot of what ifs!!
does MLB have pitching limits in playoffs or season. Coach and player knows how his arm feels. his arm must have been fine or he would not have threw 5 innings. pitch count and inning limits are a joke. some kids have good mechanic therefore arms do not get sore. they understand mechanics of pitching.
are we limiting how many throw quarterback throws or better yet limiting how many times running back carries ball (he should only be allow to get hit 10 times a game this includes blocking for other backs) because he could get concussion when he get tired
basketball player should only get 15 shots per game.
I am not from lemars. lemars goes to state stupid rule.
This post was edited on 7/25 8:59 AM by yankees19
are we limiting how many throw quarterback throws or better yet limiting how many times running back carries ball (he should only be allow to get hit 10 times a game this includes blocking for other backs) because he could get concussion when he get tired
basketball player should only get 15 shots per game.
I am not from lemars. lemars goes to state stupid rule.
This post was edited on 7/25 8:59 AM by yankees19
This is on the LeMars coach. He has been around long enough to know the rules. When he woke up that morning he should have crossed the kid off his list of available pitchers. I don't really care what the "actual" end result of the game was because there was a pitcher pitching who was ineligible. We will never know what the real outcome of the game would have been if an eligible pitcher would have pitched because that didn't happen. Heelan had to abide by the innings rules, why should it be any different for LeMars? Part of the makeup of a good baseball team is quality depth of pitching. The game would have definitely been different if another player had pitched. Same result? Maybe. Maybe Heelan rocks an alternate pitcher. We'll never know because of a rules violation.
I feel bad for the players but rules are rules. It's no different than using an ineligible player. What if Heelan would have used an academically ineligible player, or a player (ringer) that never attended the school but they brought in for one game? LeMars would be upset, and rightfully so.
I bet the coach never makes the same mistake again.
I feel bad for the players but rules are rules. It's no different than using an ineligible player. What if Heelan would have used an academically ineligible player, or a player (ringer) that never attended the school but they brought in for one game? LeMars would be upset, and rightfully so.
I bet the coach never makes the same mistake again.
Agree. The rule is pretty easy to follow. If you are a coach you know the rule. I have a hard time believing that the coach didn't know the rule. As you say, it isn't the umpires responsibility to know how many innings a player pitched 2 night ago. Besides, these coaches are getting out of control. Say what you want about innings vs pitch count but 14 innings pitched is too much for a high school player in 2 days. Arm injuries are becoming so common now. In my opinion the rule is too liberal the way it stands now.
we have laws not being followed by high school players. school staff knows what is going on and don't do anything
don't go moral values for rules when laws are national
lemars goes to state. heelan poor private school lost and can't handle it
This post was edited on 7/25 9:06 AM by yankees19
This post was edited on 7/25 9:10 AM by yankees19
don't go moral values for rules when laws are national
lemars goes to state. heelan poor private school lost and can't handle it
This post was edited on 7/25 9:06 AM by yankees19
This post was edited on 7/25 9:10 AM by yankees19
Completely different issue. MLB owns their players. You bet your bottom $ there aren't ANY MLB pitcher pitching 14 innings in 2 or 3 days time. No way. That's because teams know the damage it can cause. Here's the other thing. There isn't 1 kid that is going to say he wants to come out in that situation. There has to be rules in place to protect the players because its very simple, players won't remove themselves and coaches want to win and most of them let their drive to win over run their sense of what's good for the player
Tanner kockler pitched 185 pitches in the state semifinals and would have been eligible to pitch another 2 innings back in the state tourney 3 years ago (I think). That just shows that the rule is not saving the amount of pitches one throws. Wish that there would be a way for a team to appeal this during the game instead of taking a forfeit. Make it like an intentional walk during a game than encouraging a technicality that results in a forfeit. An opposing team should not benefit from a rule that is in place for safety concerns.
there are rules against recruiting and private school don't follow them. western had kids that wanted to go there and they are also attending Christian reform church. western said they could not go there because they had disciple problems therefore parents had to enroll them in private school. I thought private taught morals. these would have been great kids to teach their Christian values so they would not get in trouble again. I guess only prefect kids attend private schools. I wish we could pick who we wanted to attend our schools
private schools only want to enforce rules that benefit them and can break others if it benefits them
sore losers
This post was edited on 7/25 8:59 PM by yankees19
private schools only want to enforce rules that benefit them and can break others if it benefits them
sore losers
This post was edited on 7/25 8:59 PM by yankees19
Simply put LeMars played an ineligable player based on the rule. The rule clearly states it is the coaches responsibility to undertand and abide by the rule, not the umpire. If the coach had to ask the umpire on this, then he knew the kid was able to pitch. If he wanted him to potentially pitch, should have only pitched him 8 innings the game before. Then he could have pitched an entire 8 innings against Heelan. I know you have to win the one to play the other so you pitch him 9 and deal with it. I've seen plenty of coaches all year deal with this rule. It has some quirks and craziness to it, but it's the best we have and everyone has to abide by it. Regardless if it is tournaments or regular season. This is not a private school/public school debate. The only thing you could say is for the integrity of the game, Heelan could have advised the LeMars coach of the innings issue when he saw they were making that change. Would I have done that in this situation? Who knows, heat of the moment. Sounds like a great game and it's too bad this had to have happened.
knights_1246 posted on 7/25/2013...
Tanner kockler pitched 185 pitches in the state semifinals and would have been eligible to pitch another 2 innings back in the state tourney 3 years ago (I think). That just shows that the rule is not saving the amount of pitches one throws. Wish that there would be a way for a team to appeal this during the game instead of taking a forfeit. Make it like an intentional walk during a game than encouraging a technicality that results in a forfeit. An opposing team should not benefit from a rule that is in place for safety concerns.
Rules aren't perfect. Pitch count would be better but as the article in the paper eluded to, how do you enforce it and coaches and teams can always play with the numbers. In my opinion there are a number of considerations that factor into this debate. Number of Innings, number of pitches, days of rest. As we know, especially at 1a, 2a, and 3a levels, days of rest aren't really days of rest. The pitcher is most likely playing a position when he is not pitching and even tho playing a position is not the same as pitching you are still throwing.
The only person that benefits from a safety rule is the player. As I said before, the rule is there to protect the player as best as can be done. Should it be more restrictive? I would say yes. Most coaches will push the limit of the rules in order to win, even if it is putting a player at risk.
Tanner kockler pitched 185 pitches in the state semifinals and would have been eligible to pitch another 2 innings back in the state tourney 3 years ago (I think). That just shows that the rule is not saving the amount of pitches one throws. Wish that there would be a way for a team to appeal this during the game instead of taking a forfeit. Make it like an intentional walk during a game than encouraging a technicality that results in a forfeit. An opposing team should not benefit from a rule that is in place for safety concerns.
Rules aren't perfect. Pitch count would be better but as the article in the paper eluded to, how do you enforce it and coaches and teams can always play with the numbers. In my opinion there are a number of considerations that factor into this debate. Number of Innings, number of pitches, days of rest. As we know, especially at 1a, 2a, and 3a levels, days of rest aren't really days of rest. The pitcher is most likely playing a position when he is not pitching and even tho playing a position is not the same as pitching you are still throwing.
The only person that benefits from a safety rule is the player. As I said before, the rule is there to protect the player as best as can be done. Should it be more restrictive? I would say yes. Most coaches will push the limit of the rules in order to win, even if it is putting a player at risk.
Yankee19, a couple of years ago, Newman Catholic had to forfit a either state title or state runner up title in golf because a player played the course a week prior to the tourny? Sad meaningless rule (dumb) but the rule non the less. It was not a public private thing, it was the rule. All the state can do is enforce a clearly defined rule. That is the only way it can be, black and white.
Page 30 of the IHSAA Spring sports manual has this exact scenario. It also says he pitching limitation rule and the penalty for violation is a recommendation of your Baseball Coaches Advisory Committee. It used to be when you had to physically go to a rules meeting they always went over this, at least the one I used to attend. Now, with watching a video online, probably not everything gets seen. I don't know because I haven't done an online rules meeting since I don't coach anymore. You would think one of his assistants would of known the rule or at least they would of discussed it. I can't believe not one coach for LeMars knew this. Do you think his players are gonna lose respect for him come next year?
I was at the North/East game, but I was getting updates throughout the game.
Unfortunately it falls on the Lemars coaches and probably the parent of the illegal pitcher too, or even anyone in the Lemars crowd with a smart phone. If my kid pitched 9 innings on Monday, I would know whether he was elligible on Wednesday or not.
Sounds like there were lots of people there and anyone of the Lemars crowd could have pulled up the IAHSAA.org website and looked at the rules.
If you are looking for umpires that know all the rules in every corner of the rule book, you wont find one. The umpire should have never answered the inquiry, but the coach should have known what the status by Tuesday morning.
Heelan was in a tough spot. If they point it out right when it happens, it seems like sour grapes. If they wait till the end, it seems like sour grapes. Maybe they were hoping they would win outright, so they didn't have to go down the path.
You don't know if the game would have been the same if Lemars used a different elligible pitcher, no one will know.
But don't make the mistake of thinking Lemars wouldn't have protested if Heelan had pitched illegally.
Unfortunately it falls on the Lemars coaches and probably the parent of the illegal pitcher too, or even anyone in the Lemars crowd with a smart phone. If my kid pitched 9 innings on Monday, I would know whether he was elligible on Wednesday or not.
Sounds like there were lots of people there and anyone of the Lemars crowd could have pulled up the IAHSAA.org website and looked at the rules.
If you are looking for umpires that know all the rules in every corner of the rule book, you wont find one. The umpire should have never answered the inquiry, but the coach should have known what the status by Tuesday morning.
Heelan was in a tough spot. If they point it out right when it happens, it seems like sour grapes. If they wait till the end, it seems like sour grapes. Maybe they were hoping they would win outright, so they didn't have to go down the path.
You don't know if the game would have been the same if Lemars used a different elligible pitcher, no one will know.
But don't make the mistake of thinking Lemars wouldn't have protested if Heelan had pitched illegally.
runners at 1st and 2nd base batter hits slow roller to 3rd. fielder fields ball and make no attempt to tag runner going to 3rd instead throws to 1st. ump calls runner out for going behind fielder. when coach asked ump what runner should have done instead he said to do what runner did. changed game would have been bases loaded 0 outs
.rules says field must attend to make play on runner. runner was not near fielder
same ump bases loaded. batter hit line drive to ss who throws to 3rd. 3rd baseman never found base but runner called out.
rules says fielder needs to be in contact with base
st Mary's Remsen play on home field with bull pen. rule both teams should have equal playing conditions. is west lyon saying rensem needs to forfeit.
state better enforce all rules equally.
.rules says field must attend to make play on runner. runner was not near fielder
same ump bases loaded. batter hit line drive to ss who throws to 3rd. 3rd baseman never found base but runner called out.
rules says fielder needs to be in contact with base
st Mary's Remsen play on home field with bull pen. rule both teams should have equal playing conditions. is west lyon saying rensem needs to forfeit.
state better enforce all rules equally.
100% on the LeMars coach. He pitched an ineligible player and he hurt the team, not Heelan. More important he could have caused severe injury to the pitcher. Unfortunately that's life, teams are rewarded for following the rules.
Heelan absolutely should not have told them after they ineligible player threw the 1st pitch. Even if the Heelan coaches knew they would win by forfeit they had a better case the longer the ineligible pitcher threw. 5 innings is a less convincing "oops" than 1 pitch. They probably also didn't want their players getting on their heels during the game knowing they already won. It's a team mentality thing
Heelan absolutely should not have told them after they ineligible player threw the 1st pitch. Even if the Heelan coaches knew they would win by forfeit they had a better case the longer the ineligible pitcher threw. 5 innings is a less convincing "oops" than 1 pitch. They probably also didn't want their players getting on their heels during the game knowing they already won. It's a team mentality thing
Are you going to tell us the outcomes of these situations? Let alone speak English? You sound like a bitter 14 year old right now. Just tell us what happened in your game and why you didn't go to state. As for the bull pen I have no idea what you're getting at with that?
umps ruled against west lyon we moved on. heelan fans and players are sore loser and making excuses why they lost. roger barr isn't enforce any other rules in the umpires rule book. move on umps are in control of games just ask them. lemars was better team according to umps so live with in. sad way to qualify for state heelan
I have no idea how the Heelan players feel about going to state"this way". How do you think the LeMars players would have felt if they would have made it to state by breaking the rules?
Can you say your situations in a more detailed manner so we can discuss those? Haven't heard of one Heelan sore loser? Also umpires have no control over the pitching limitation rule. Pitching limitation rule is a little different than a judgement call in a game sorry. That's why they have the pitching limitation rule printed on every line up card! So unless you want to present why you got screwed over then leave the conversation. Also stop blaming Heelan because obviously the game would be different if this kid wasn't in it. It's the rules case closed I'm sure if you talk to the Lemars coach he feels awful but knows he broke a cut n dry rule.
Who is this Manuel you speak of? It is not the umpires duty to enforce pitching limitation rules that's a fact. Also same umpires did first 2 rounds at each site. Then after that if state reassigned you guys same crew so be it. But it is not the same umpires for the whole district everywhere fact! So you going to bring up your situation or just cry about it. This situation is case closed was handled properly.
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