Heelan/LeMars Forfeit?
- Thread starter IowaBanker
- Start date
Coaches, it is your responsibility to make certain that your pitchers are complying with the pitching limitation rule.
Obviously, umpires are aware of the rule in that the rule is outlined on your line-up card, however, you are the responsible
party to make certain that a young man does not violate the pitching limitation rule as it pertains to the number of innings he
may pitch in a given week. Keep good records. Keeping good records of number of innings pitched is certainly the key to
alleviate any difficulties with reference to violating the pitching limitation rule. It is not a difficult rule as outlined below and,
of course, your line-up cards provide space for probable pitchers, uniform number, number of eligible innings remaining in
the weeks, etc. Most of you have individuals who keep your book for you anyway, so it would not be difficult to have your
official scorer or yourself maintain these records as you move through the week as it pertains to the pitching limitation rule.
There is a number of pitching limitation examples below. Your review of these examples would be advantageous for your
thorough knowledge of the pitching limitation rule.
Sucks for the kids, but rules are rules. There should be ZERO blame put on the ump(s).
Agree that this is totally on the lemars coach.
It is immoral as well for him to do that to that kid.
He should be let go if you ask me.
It is immoral as well for him to do that to that kid.
He should be let go if you ask me.
This is overboard, if you ask me. Different kids with different mechanics can endure different workloads. Dewitt has a Freshman lefty that could probably throw 100 pitches 3x per week...he just has that kind of arm. Let's not get carried away with the immoral/get fired bit...
I have a strong feeling that the LeMars coach knew exactly what he was doing. He has been around the game long enough to know the simple rules and if not they are posted on his scorecard so there is no excuse. If he is asking the umpire for permission to put the kid in he is obviously aware that he is at least close to the limit or he already knows and is trying to pull a fast one. Worst case in that situation you make damn sure that it is legal for that kid to go in before you put him in.. especially in a game with so much on the line. LeMars can look all over the place for excuses but when it comes down to it they have no one to blame but themselves. Very unfortunate situation for both teams it would of been nice to see a legal pitcher go in for LeMars and play the game out the right way with a fair outcome. Hell of a game for LeMars and I feel for those kids.. But it is what it is and good luck to Heelan at State.
Coach Eckstaine is taking 100% blame for this incident. And his players are sticking behind him completely, saying they would never want to play for anyone else. This one misjudgment(?) by him does not negate how fantastic of a coach, teacher, and man that he is.
Bottom line is this: LeMars and Heelan battled, each pitching their best pitchers in the game. And LeMars came away victorious. Given who played, they were the better team last night, simple as that. But because they broke the rules, whether Coach Eckstaine did it knowingly or not, they deserve the forfeit. Because rules are rules. And they were not followed.
Bottom line is this: LeMars and Heelan battled, each pitching their best pitchers in the game. And LeMars came away victorious. Given who played, they were the better team last night, simple as that. But because they broke the rules, whether Coach Eckstaine did it knowingly or not, they deserve the forfeit. Because rules are rules. And they were not followed.
I'm not from LeMars but from a school that played the LeMars and it is ridiculous to say that Eckstaine tried to pull a fast one and break the rules on purpose. It was obviously in the heat of the moment and probably never thought about it after asking the umpire.
To say he should be fired is what I like to call an overreaction.Pitchers pitch plenty more than this in this short amount of period. Even with throwing on this short notice, the odds of him needing Tommy John was extremely low. It is just very unfortunate that a technicality decided the outcome of the best game I've seen this year.
The people that are hating on Heelan have to realize that the state would have caught it one way or another. I've played in a game where the same thing happened and we lost due to pitching a pitcher too many innings, it just wasn't substate. Feel bad for the Dogs, they deserved it.
That's straight up crap to say that LeMars lost by cheating. They could have just as easily put Borchers back in if they needed to. Borchers had pretty much shut them down the entire game and I was shocked he didn't pitch the 7th to be honest.
This post was edited on 7/25 7:39 PM by knights_1246
This post was edited on 7/25 7:41 PM by knights_1246
To say he should be fired is what I like to call an overreaction.Pitchers pitch plenty more than this in this short amount of period. Even with throwing on this short notice, the odds of him needing Tommy John was extremely low. It is just very unfortunate that a technicality decided the outcome of the best game I've seen this year.
The people that are hating on Heelan have to realize that the state would have caught it one way or another. I've played in a game where the same thing happened and we lost due to pitching a pitcher too many innings, it just wasn't substate. Feel bad for the Dogs, they deserved it.
That's straight up crap to say that LeMars lost by cheating. They could have just as easily put Borchers back in if they needed to. Borchers had pretty much shut them down the entire game and I was shocked he didn't pitch the 7th to be honest.
This post was edited on 7/25 7:39 PM by knights_1246
This post was edited on 7/25 7:41 PM by knights_1246
Please tell me where I was incorrect in stating that, "Given who played, [LeMars] was the better team last night." Because, given who played, LeMars had more runs than Heelan at the end of 11 innings. And that, given who played, means a victory.
I am not trying to spin this into an unfair result. I have admitted already that, according to the rules set forth by the IAHSAA, LeMars did deserve the forfeit. But when looking at it solely by who played, LeMars was the better team. And the scoreboard agreed.
Here are some articles about what happened if you are interested. They all pretty much say the same thing, but each does have some unique information and perspective:
LeMars Daily Sentinel
Sioux City Journal
Des Moines Register
Omaha World Herald
Radio Iowa
LeMars Daily Sentinel
Sioux City Journal
Des Moines Register
Omaha World Herald
Radio Iowa
You have stated 2x "given who played." Well, then people who lost who DID NOT break the rules, and followed the rules, who could have pitched someone illegally but didn't, could say, "given who didn't play." What are your trying to say? Yeah, they beat them with the given players on the field, but one of those players was illegal. It wasn't a technicality as someone pointed out. It was a violation of the rules. Heelan won, fair and square. I live on the other side of the state and have no dog in the fight. I bring an outside, and fair approach. If a football team throws a hail mary on the last play and scores the winning touchdown, but it is negated because they lined up wrong, they didn't win the game. They didn't, win "given who played."
I know what 2013 nfhs case book for umpimes has in it. you have read it sometime. you may learn something about baseball. why do umps keep score cards. know what your talking about.
it sound like you can't handle successful teams. I don't care if people hate me. people hate successful people.
it sound like you can't handle successful teams. I don't care if people hate me. people hate successful people.
They don't keep score cards they keep LINE UP cards. How should they know who pitched 2 days ago? It's coaches responsibility which has been shown to you word for word on association website.
your the one without a clue. it is the baseball rule book that ihsaa sends out to certified umps. I know that rules in it. read it before you make comments. know what your talking about before you post. you must be from heelan.
same umps are doing all playoff games. we had same umps 4 straight playoff games. they know the good players name. when subs come into game they write down on lineuo calls. what you expect them to do. memorize all pinch runners and who they ran for. they also need to keep track if player is eligible to re-enter and were in lineup. you should know umps want umps requirement are before posting. DO NOT JUST READ THE PORTION ON THAT INTERNET. RULE BOOK GOES INTO DETAIL. KNOW FACTS FIRST
suck it up. lemars beat heelan 8 to 5. if lemars has to forfeit. state should not take either heelan or leamers. give top seed a bye.
This post was edited on 7/25 10:02 PM by yankees19
same umps are doing all playoff games. we had same umps 4 straight playoff games. they know the good players name. when subs come into game they write down on lineuo calls. what you expect them to do. memorize all pinch runners and who they ran for. they also need to keep track if player is eligible to re-enter and were in lineup. you should know umps want umps requirement are before posting. DO NOT JUST READ THE PORTION ON THAT INTERNET. RULE BOOK GOES INTO DETAIL. KNOW FACTS FIRST
suck it up. lemars beat heelan 8 to 5. if lemars has to forfeit. state should not take either heelan or leamers. give top seed a bye.
This post was edited on 7/25 10:02 PM by yankees19
First off the pitching limitation rule is not in the rule book because it is on every line up card! Fact! Secondly like I stated before each district host site for the first two games will have same umpires your site just happen to get same ones the whole time that is luck of the draw. They are still not responsible for knowing who pitched what inning! Fact! So like I've stated this rule is not umpires responsibility! Fact! Umpires go to places based off geography the state does not like to pay mileage for the umpires so other keep them close for the most part. Unless some parts of state don't have enough qualified umpires they may have to travel. So you need to get your facts straight before you come out here and cry foul on umpires etc.
you say state assigns umps to playoff games based on location. why not on merit. I would not hire some of them to do youth baseball. There are good young umps that should be doing playoff games. state get same old guys every year. some can't move fast enough to get into right position to make call.
This post was edited on 7/25 10:23 PM by yankees19
This post was edited on 7/25 10:23 PM by yankees19
It is both you get district games on 2 things 1 recommendations 2 if you turn in your sportsmanship ratings. So maybe your buddies aren't turning in their sportsmanship ratings therefore they are inelgible to do district baseball games. For a guy saying oh they don't get in right position or make wrong calls you don't seem to know how things work. Just come on a message board and run your mouth thinking you know something.
And you must be an Illiterate LeMars fan. If you don't know what that means I'm sure Google can help you out. No one can take you seriously when half of your words are spelled wrong and your arguments are all over the place. Not to mention all of your blabbering about all of these rules these umpires should know are irrelevant when the coach is required to know the rule.
From the "Umpires" topic, I believe he is from West Lyon.This one is on the LeMars coach. The rules are clear and not only that but apparently the rules also state that it is up to the coaches to track this and not the officials. Particularly at this point of the season, if you are tending to ride one pitcher you need to be damn certain you know the rules.
I have a question. Did the LeMars players and coaches get on the bus thinking they had won? What about even getting the banner? If they didn't know before getting on the bus or even got the banner IMO they should be the ones going to Des Moines and NOT Heelan. I don't see how this would be different than any blown call. What if it was a blown call which clearly resulted in a different outcome and afterwards a parent (or coach) produced video evidence that the wrong team was awarded the victory? Would they reverse the outcome? Of course they wouldn't. It might not be up to the umps to track this rule but they are the ones to enforce it and like any call it needs to be enforced DURING the game and not after.
Why was this not addressed when the violation occurred? Who caught the violation? Was it a Heelan coach? Was it a Heelan fan/parent with a smart phone who noticed the infraction and came up AFTER LeMars was declared the winner? That is what it sounds like to me. If the Heelan coaches would have been aware of the issue wouldn't they have said something to the official sooner? (Maybe they did but after the ump told LeMars they were ok to pitch their guy they didn't want to reverse that statement and risk a bad scene right there at the ballfield).
In boxing you can be saved by the final bell because even if knocked down within the final 10 seconds the match will be over before you can be counted out. That makes sense. It also makes sense LeMars goes to state because the match was over before the the violation was brought to the umps.
One last question. How long could the officials have waited and still changed the outcome? What if the infraction were brought up today? Would they overturn this thing 2 days later? What about next week while LeMars was on the bus on the way to Des Moines? What if they pulled into Des Moines only to learn at that point of the loss,
You have to have an ending point to a game for obvious reasons.
This post was edited on 7/26 7:00 AM by ghost80
I have a question. Did the LeMars players and coaches get on the bus thinking they had won? What about even getting the banner? If they didn't know before getting on the bus or even got the banner IMO they should be the ones going to Des Moines and NOT Heelan. I don't see how this would be different than any blown call. What if it was a blown call which clearly resulted in a different outcome and afterwards a parent (or coach) produced video evidence that the wrong team was awarded the victory? Would they reverse the outcome? Of course they wouldn't. It might not be up to the umps to track this rule but they are the ones to enforce it and like any call it needs to be enforced DURING the game and not after.
Why was this not addressed when the violation occurred? Who caught the violation? Was it a Heelan coach? Was it a Heelan fan/parent with a smart phone who noticed the infraction and came up AFTER LeMars was declared the winner? That is what it sounds like to me. If the Heelan coaches would have been aware of the issue wouldn't they have said something to the official sooner? (Maybe they did but after the ump told LeMars they were ok to pitch their guy they didn't want to reverse that statement and risk a bad scene right there at the ballfield).
In boxing you can be saved by the final bell because even if knocked down within the final 10 seconds the match will be over before you can be counted out. That makes sense. It also makes sense LeMars goes to state because the match was over before the the violation was brought to the umps.
One last question. How long could the officials have waited and still changed the outcome? What if the infraction were brought up today? Would they overturn this thing 2 days later? What about next week while LeMars was on the bus on the way to Des Moines? What if they pulled into Des Moines only to learn at that point of the loss,
You have to have an ending point to a game for obvious reasons.
This post was edited on 7/26 7:00 AM by ghost80
Here's the bottom line: Lemars broke the rules. It's really hard to understand how a coach could not know this rule. Heelen should not be penalized for Lemars' mistake. As a number of other people have said, if other teams could throw their #1 14 innings in 2 days they might also be in state tournament rather than their season being over.
Rules are put there for two reasons. 1) to level the playing field and preventing a competitive advantage and 2) safety. Say what you want about this rule but it's a very well known rule and has been in effect for a while now. It's unfortunate that it happened and I wouldn't be happy to be a part of it either way.
Rules are put there for two reasons. 1) to level the playing field and preventing a competitive advantage and 2) safety. Say what you want about this rule but it's a very well known rule and has been in effect for a while now. It's unfortunate that it happened and I wouldn't be happy to be a part of it either way.
You ask a lot of questions, some of which are stupid. Anyway, according to the Register and the Omaha paper, someone from Sergeant Bluff contacted a Heelan fan who told the coach. The coach said this happened in the 11th inning. The Heelan coach said he had too much going on and even struggled to process the info so he either asked the AD himself or asked the fan to contact the AD. He called the State and got a ruling.It was known it was going to be a forfeit before the game was over.
Haters going to Hate
A once read an article by a great man
who wrote that the minute you have haters,
critics and jealous people you should throw
your arms up in victory!!
As you become more successful you'll attract
3 types of people
#1 - Critics
#2 - Parasites
#3 - People happy for your success
My experience tells me that there are far
more in the #3 category than 1 or 2.
But, 1 and 2 tend to get the most attention from us.
Critics need to pick you apart and knock you down.
My old man used to say there are 2 ways to have
the tallest building in town:
1. Build a bigger building
2. Knock down the other buildings
Critics can't build their own buildings so the
only way for them to feel any kind of significance
is to knock down everyone else.
The parasite wants to steal and borrow from
your success. They don't have the confidence or
the stones to go out and make it happen for
themselves so they really live a sad life wishing
they were someone else.
In both cases very pathetic.
When the haters, critics, parasites and know it all's show
up...throw your arms in the air and celebrate.
YOU HAVE MADE IT.
And rest easy knowing how small, weak and pathetic
those people are and how they secretly wish
they could have what you have.
But, the harsh reality is ...they just won't do
the work or don't have the talent and they can't deal
with it.
Very sad way to live.
you guys are #2. lemars did work
This post was edited on 7/26 9:10 AM by yankees19
A once read an article by a great man
who wrote that the minute you have haters,
critics and jealous people you should throw
your arms up in victory!!
As you become more successful you'll attract
3 types of people
#1 - Critics
#2 - Parasites
#3 - People happy for your success
My experience tells me that there are far
more in the #3 category than 1 or 2.
But, 1 and 2 tend to get the most attention from us.
Critics need to pick you apart and knock you down.
My old man used to say there are 2 ways to have
the tallest building in town:
1. Build a bigger building
2. Knock down the other buildings
Critics can't build their own buildings so the
only way for them to feel any kind of significance
is to knock down everyone else.
The parasite wants to steal and borrow from
your success. They don't have the confidence or
the stones to go out and make it happen for
themselves so they really live a sad life wishing
they were someone else.
In both cases very pathetic.
When the haters, critics, parasites and know it all's show
up...throw your arms in the air and celebrate.
YOU HAVE MADE IT.
And rest easy knowing how small, weak and pathetic
those people are and how they secretly wish
they could have what you have.
But, the harsh reality is ...they just won't do
the work or don't have the talent and they can't deal
with it.
Very sad way to live.
you guys are #2. lemars did work
This post was edited on 7/26 9:10 AM by yankees19
I feel bad for Le mars. Is is a bad way to lose a game. However, the kid who pitched was only ingeble (spell?) to pitch. He could play any other position in that game. This is not so uncommon in other sports. In all sports if a player is used and is in legible they forfeit all the games that player played in. Also, this rule cost Kuemper a state champship about ten years ago. Due to rain delays Kuemper had to pitch their best pitchers. Kuemper asked about this very rule and was told they could not use their ace. Instead, they used a freshman pitcher who pitched very well but ultimate Kuemper lost the game and finished second.
I have a hard time believing that Heelan's coach didn't know about it before the 11th inning. You'd have to think that, going in to the game and thinking of the possible pitchers they may face (both starters and relievers), he would have seen that the LeMars kid had thrown 9 innings and would have known that he couldn't throw. Not accusing him of anything, because even if he did know, he did nothing wrong. Just surprised that, going into a game of that magnitude, he wouldn't have known that the LeMars pitcher had thrown 9 and couldn't throw on Wed.
Yanks, thanks for posting that inspirational article it fits perfectly in this thread. Copy and paste works wonders. I'm sure you got through to all of your "haters". Go out and rejoice because with all of the haters you have you've obviously MADE IT!
Also, it's easy for people sitting here dissecting the game to come up with what these coaches should and shouldn't be thinking about during the game after it has already happened. In a game of that magnitude everything speeds up and these coaches have all kinds of thoughts running through their heads. After all, they are high school coaches and like all of us they make mistakes. I think everyone in the state has learned from this and I don't see a mistake like this happening again.
This post was edited on 7/26 9:48 AM by JSD8998
This post was edited on 7/26 10:01 AM by JSD8998
Also, it's easy for people sitting here dissecting the game to come up with what these coaches should and shouldn't be thinking about during the game after it has already happened. In a game of that magnitude everything speeds up and these coaches have all kinds of thoughts running through their heads. After all, they are high school coaches and like all of us they make mistakes. I think everyone in the state has learned from this and I don't see a mistake like this happening again.
This post was edited on 7/26 9:48 AM by JSD8998
This post was edited on 7/26 10:01 AM by JSD8998
Yanks I'm still waiting for the answer to my question in the umpires thread. Also to the guy who said if they got on the bus etc and left it should be Lemars win. This was not a judgment call by the umpire and like you said they are not supposed to do anything with this rule. So I ask you when are you supposed to do it during the game if umpires have no saying on it? Answer your not its called a protested game because its a rules violation! This wasn't a judgment call and even those you can't argue with video evidence. So get this yeah he was in direct violation of the rule so was easy call but when you protest a game you still may not win the game. Tihis is why they allow you to protest it let the association review it and get back to you. Because ill give you a scenario pitcher A pitchers in Sioux City on Monday all 9 innings they beat number 1 ranked team. Then the team goes on road trip pitcher A on Tuesday pitches all 7 innings and wins vs a team in Dubuque in the regular season the coach hasn't entered his quikstats yet. Then no way but on Wednesday pitcher A pitches all 7 innings againand wins against Lamoni in southern iowa. He has had no access to a computer to enter quikstats etc. They used an illegal pitcher both Tuesday and Wednesday based on your rule they got on the bus and left they win? Get out of here with the crap. A week later Dubuque discovers he was an illegal pitcher his stats now are up they call in they will get the win! Case closed. Now Lamoni a week later looks sees a forfeit thinks what is going on see he was illegal in their game to they call in and guess what they get a win to! So by your rule they should not be allowed to argue what had happened they should some how know that pitcher A threw 9 innings 300 miles away the night before. Get real
I have to admit, I do not post often, but really enjoy reading the debates. I am also a Heelan parent as I have 3 kids that go to Heelan. I was at the game on Wednesday and have read many articles and posts regarding the game. I have many friends in LeMars and actually have a nephew that plays for them. So was happy for the LeMars boys. I was there at the end when Coach Eckstaine told his players about the forfeit, and it truely was heartbreaking. It actually made me sick to my stomach. And I have seen several tweets and posts from people who think Heelan, in some way, stole this game. I was sitting with a good friend of mine from LeMars, and he made reference to the 9 inning rule. We talked about it briefly and about the fact that someone told him that Rolfes was unavailable to pitch. I didn't know the rule so we just kinda let it slide by. Fantastic game. both teams very deserving of a State opportunity. I am perplexed as to why so many people think Heelan in some way stole it away from LeMars though. Let's assume this is a basketball game, and LeMars's best player fouls out with 5 minutes left. Tight game. During a timeout, their best player changes jerseys with another kid, and goes back into the game. LeMars wins in overtime. Does that not constitute a rules violation ? He is ineligible to go back into the game. His playing changes the outcome. But of the opinions I have seen from some people, LeMars won the game 8-5 and got screwed. By using an illegal pitcher, it changed the outcome of the game. They may not have won on Monday if their pitcher does not throw 9 innings against Sgt Bluff. We will never know for sure how the game would have turned out had all rules been followed. Nobody that I know from Heelan feels good about this outcome. We all know how good LeMars is, and in no way feel vindicated by this rule. Coach Eckstaine is truely a wonderful coach, man, and person for taking responsibility for this mistake. Takes a big man to admit that. The community of LeMars is fortunate to have him.
After communicating with my friend and fellow umpire, Mark Harris, I can confirm that Trent never asked him about the eligibility of his incoming pitcher and if he could be used or not. Trent simply went to him to pass along his substitution. It's a shame that newspaper articles and other sources are even mildly suggesting that a conversation occurred between the two of them, about this. Trent never said that he went over the pitching regulations with the plate umpire and the plate umpire confirms that that conversation never took place. While Mark knew about the 11 inning game on Monday night, he did not know about Parker pitching nine innings in that game, nor was he expected to know that information. But if he had known (and obviously he knows the pitching regulation rules), he would have brought it up to Trent, obviously.
It really isn't THAT hard to see how a coach could make that mistake. How many times during a team's season, do they even play a 9 inning game? And then how often does one pitcher throw all 9 innings of that game? I'm guessing that only a handful of a team's games even go extra innings during a season.
That being considered, I can easily see Eckstaine's overlooking the rule. I have NO doubt that he knew about the rule. But when you throw so many things in the mix - the lack of extra-inning games during the season, the even more remote situation of a kid throwing 9 innings in even one game, the intensity of playing a rival in a substate game, and the excitement of probably the best high school baseball game played in this area (or the state) in years - I can see where he very easily overlooked (or didn't even consider) the pitching limitation rule. Doesn't excuse it, but it makes it understandable.
That being said, I think that he was focusing more on the 16 inning rule and not on the days rest rule. It's unfortunate. LeMars has two fantastic coaches on that staff, and they beat Heelan with a great game plan and an even better scouting report. It's a shame that they won't be playing in Des Moines. Based on what I saw Wednesday night, both of those teams should be playing in Des Moines, and they would very likely end up in a rematch for the championship if they both were.
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