I went to college in Sioux County, so I am familiar with NW Iowa basketball and still have relatives living up there. I think that they should be happy that the state does break them up as much as they do. It would be really easy for the state to say, "Sioux County schools, here is your district and may the strongest survive." instead, you can have at least two teams from the area make it to state in a class.
What is a solution to the state pairing problems?
- Thread starter LukeFeddersen
- Start date
Agree.
I don't think anyone is saying ignore geography. Just put a little bit of thought into the dividing lines & get creative in separating the best teams (ala the Girl's Union).
Living in NW IA, I love that I can drive 20-30 miles to see a matchup between 2 of the best teams in a class.
It's great for a basketball fan, but a little sad that it happens in mid Feb instead of March @ the Well.
#1 example isn't NW Iowa, it's 2A N Central IA, where A-P & New Hampton are not separated.
#1 example of doing it right: The Girl's separating the 2 overwhelmingly best 2A girl's teams.
Best of all, a couple upsets can easily shut us all up!
This post was edited on 2/24 3:47 PM by VanderHoops
Well if upsets can shut us all up it shouldn't matter if we separate regions or not. If they will happen they will happen.
Just trying to get my head around how u could compensate this years example. Central Lyons and Boyden-Hull in a tough spot to move one of them. With them being so close u would almost have to rig a seriously stupid looking district to get it done. And if u did it for one you would have to do it for everyone..
My solution is to do away with districts. Take the 19-20 teams in a substate and rank them and play it out. Cl and BH would meet for example in the substate final.. Just my thoughts
My solution is to do away with districts. Take the 19-20 teams in a substate and rank them and play it out. Cl and BH would meet for example in the substate final.. Just my thoughts
Well whatever problems we may think we have here at least we don't have to deal with stuff like this;
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/two-tennessee-schools-tossed-from-states-for-tanking-164447852.html
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/two-tennessee-schools-tossed-from-states-for-tanking-164447852.html
It would not be that difficult to set up districts... I know some people are getting sick of the past "15 years or so" being brought up but again here is an example. 2008: Boyden-Hull and George Little Rock were split up and both went to state. George and Boyden are 11 miles a part and from the same conference. It can be done if the state wants to do it. Boyden-Hull could have easily been sent south this year. I don't think people from BH would complain if they had to play teams over an hour away instead of traveling 20 minutes to play CL.
Not trying to complain just saying it has been done before. And the year it was done, BH was 10-11 going into tournament play and went on to get 4th at state after playing a conference school in the 2nd round in GLR and going to overtime.
*And that year they went down and beat the #1 team first round that was undefeated. (Just had to throw that jab in there
Again, NW Iowa may not always have the absolute best basketball, some year it may be 2 teams from SE Iowa that are #1/#2. SPLIT THEM UP! Get the best teams to Des Moines so that when I go down to watch the state tournament (Which the boys in Boone want to showcase the best basketball) I am not watching a team get beat by 30. That is a waste of time and money for fans who want to see good basketball.
"It'd be a great idea for the state to split up Boyden Hull and Central Lyon so they don't have to play each other and can both make it to state."
South O'Brien over Central Lyon. Problem solved.
This is why you don't jerry rig the pairings in a biased manner.
South O'Brien over Central Lyon. Problem solved.
This is why you don't jerry rig the pairings in a biased manner.
I find it pretty hard to ever feel sorry for Assumption in anything, sorry. For years they have recruited the best athletes in the area all while being allowed to play a class lower than they should. Normally I agree with your posts maxstabs and enjoy your insights but lets not shed too many tears for poor old Assumption.
This post was edited on 2/25 11:49 AM by KidKinnick
This post was edited on 2/25 11:49 AM by KidKinnick
Who did they recruit? Did Williamsburg recruit the kid from Iowa City West? Did Linn Mar recruit the girl from CR Jefferson? Did Jefferson recruit Uthoff from Marengo? See how this goes? Did Sigourney recruit the two Czech Republic national team members? Foregn Exchange students are supposed to be random? Really? They got two extremely talented basketball players randomly? You public school purists have your heads planted firmly in the sand.
saywhat--- C'mon arguing about private schools vs. public schools is like arguing who has the best pizza. Is it Pizza Ranch or is it Pizza Hut. Hey Pizza Hut, where did you get your ingredients? Did you steal them form Pizza Ranch? Well Pizza Ranch has the better buffet(bet they stole the idea from Pizza Hut!!!
Here is how we do it in North Iowa Conference for recruiting,
Forest City , all kids that play have been together the entire time except for Isaiah who came to FC in 7th grade due to WCLT closing.
West Hancock, as far as I know every kid has gone to WH school the entire time.
Garner, same as WH
Lake Mills, same as WH
Newman Catholic, One kid family moved from Osage to Mason City in 7th grade.
All of the rest of teams are the same as WH as far as I know.
Why do I post this, for the people that whine about how great their teams are that get screwed, how many of you can say the same thing that I just did? If you recruit players and your team gets the short end of it somewhere, who cares!! Try building a team of kids from early on and not have a 6'9" change schools to be on a better team, or a good point guard decide he could make state by transferring. How about getting your butt in the gym and making your team better so they can beat whoever you play?
Forest City , all kids that play have been together the entire time except for Isaiah who came to FC in 7th grade due to WCLT closing.
West Hancock, as far as I know every kid has gone to WH school the entire time.
Garner, same as WH
Lake Mills, same as WH
Newman Catholic, One kid family moved from Osage to Mason City in 7th grade.
All of the rest of teams are the same as WH as far as I know.
Why do I post this, for the people that whine about how great their teams are that get screwed, how many of you can say the same thing that I just did? If you recruit players and your team gets the short end of it somewhere, who cares!! Try building a team of kids from early on and not have a 6'9" change schools to be on a better team, or a good point guard decide he could make state by transferring. How about getting your butt in the gym and making your team better so they can beat whoever you play?
Never posted here before, but allow me to be the voice of reason. Easy fixes to the two items being debated. I coached for several years in Missouri and I have to say on both items they are light years ahead of Iowa. Public vs. private...give privates a multiplier. Think they use 1.5 there. Won't move them all up a class, but should level it some. At the end of the day, it will always appear someone is cheating .On the pairing side, state draws districts and then is out of this. Let the coaches have a seeding meeting and let that be the end of it. Takes the scheduling and seeding of games 5 to 15 off the table. The coaches know much more about a teams strengths and weaknesses and those seeding meetings were always a blast. Maybe with a new incoming executive director something could change.
I just want to second this that Missouri has a very good set up. The first thing, obviously to most, is that the private schools need a multiplier, and 1.5 usually works very well. The second thing Missouri does well is that the districts/substates are big brackets instead of just four team brackets. If two great teams play in a substate, oh well, but the problem is when two great teams play in the first two (district) games. In 3A for example, I think just seeding all 8 teams together would work wonders, but keep it at records only. Then you'd have 8 regions with 8 teams. The top 8 teams will probably never make state but this will make most of the top teams make the regional final (or substate). Seeding doesn't need to be a hard concept, and it's a lot more fair when it isn't.
I wouldnt be against a seeding meeting, but i am guessing they have to get heated at times. Do coaches try and manipulate how they rate teams based on getting themselves a better matchup? I would assume it would happen, its human nature. It's not the same thing, but look at the situation in Tennessee. As you mentioned them being a blast, i am assuming you have some great stories to go along with it.
As far as a multiplier goes, i heard this some place else and i agreed with it. Any time a student is outside of the local district where their physical residence is, they should be counted as a multiplier. I will use Western as my example. Their school building is in Hull, so they would then take on the school district of Boyden Hull. Any student that attends Western outside of the BH district would be counted as a multiplier (strange word). the same would then be said of public schools. Any student that attend BH as an open enrollee would then be counted as a multiplier.
As far as a multiplier goes, i heard this some place else and i agreed with it. Any time a student is outside of the local district where their physical residence is, they should be counted as a multiplier. I will use Western as my example. Their school building is in Hull, so they would then take on the school district of Boyden Hull. Any student that attends Western outside of the BH district would be counted as a multiplier (strange word). the same would then be said of public schools. Any student that attend BH as an open enrollee would then be counted as a multiplier.
I think this thread needs to end. Notice how its loaded with 1A and 2A people who have a problem because those classes have more schools. Just get over it and win. And to the guy who said fans pay good money down at Des Moines to see the best teams play, please be quiet!!! High School Sports aren't about the fans, parents, etc. Sorry to break that to you. They are about the kids and kids only.
About the Missouri "seeding meeting" thing, I've never heard of that. They have a points system for seeding, at least for basketball.
As far as the 1A and 2A schools go, I do agree it's a little strange that there are over 3 times as many 1A teams as 4A teams. Doesn't make a ton of sense.
As far as the 1A and 2A schools go, I do agree it's a little strange that there are over 3 times as many 1A teams as 4A teams. Doesn't make a ton of sense.
Every year in February someone starts this thread. The IHSAA hasn't changed much in 30 years regarding district assignments. Who really expects them to change now? Most of the recent decisions by the IHSAA are made to minimize travel expenses as much as possible. Those who think they are going to change district assignments to keep two highly ranked teams apart at the expense of longer driving distances for other schools are dreaming.
But iceman, the IGHSAU manipulates districts for the girls so the boys in Boone sure could do it also. Ahhh but that would cause them to actually sit down and use their brains. Oh that's right..they don't have brains. Heaven forbid if Smokey and the gang actually would come up with a novel idea someday.
But then what do we do with teams that have players open enroll at public schools? do those public schools get a 1.25 multiplier? Maybe a formula for the years spent in the district? If the kid has been going to school in a district since Kindergarten, he only counts as .25 students, after 3rd grade, .5, 6th grade .75, Freshman 1 and add .1 for any year after freshman year that he joins your school? That should really help the schools in the sticks where no one ever moves in.
Or maybe only do that for the private schools, I don't think that it would make that much of a difference as most of the kids that I know that went to private schools (myself included), spent 13 years in a private school system.
I think Kevin White from the Omaha World Herald had a great article about this whole debate--if you haven't read it do so.
To summarize: The girls union believes it is in the best interest to TRY to get the best teams in each class to state. They manipulate the brackets to TRY to split up the best 8 teams. Obviously this isn't a guarantee, but many people feel this is a great way to set up the postseason.
The Boys Association takes a different stance (and openly admits/defends it). They believe it is in the best interest to have a "geographical" state tourney (for lack of a better word). I believe Tharp is even quoted as saying they have NEVER believed they should manipulate brackets to try to get the best 8 teams to state. They would rather have a representative from each 'region' from around the state...
Unless multiple people retire/resign from one group or the other--I don't see anything changing in the future. The IGHSAU feels it's doing the best job for girls; The IAHSAA feels it's doing the best job for boys. High School teams and coaches will do the best job they can of playing the hand they were dealt.
FWIW...at least the boys wait until after XMAS to set up Substates. I remember when they used to mail out the entire bracket before the season started and our coach posted it in the locker room.
To summarize: The girls union believes it is in the best interest to TRY to get the best teams in each class to state. They manipulate the brackets to TRY to split up the best 8 teams. Obviously this isn't a guarantee, but many people feel this is a great way to set up the postseason.
The Boys Association takes a different stance (and openly admits/defends it). They believe it is in the best interest to have a "geographical" state tourney (for lack of a better word). I believe Tharp is even quoted as saying they have NEVER believed they should manipulate brackets to try to get the best 8 teams to state. They would rather have a representative from each 'region' from around the state...
Unless multiple people retire/resign from one group or the other--I don't see anything changing in the future. The IGHSAU feels it's doing the best job for girls; The IAHSAA feels it's doing the best job for boys. High School teams and coaches will do the best job they can of playing the hand they were dealt.
FWIW...at least the boys wait until after XMAS to set up Substates. I remember when they used to mail out the entire bracket before the season started and our coach posted it in the locker room.
Sounds like Mr White had a great column. I like the Girls Union's approach way more than the Boys Association. The Girls Union approach is similar to the NCAA Division I tournament. Try to get the perceived best 4 teams to the Final Four. Thank goodness they(NCAA) don't take the Boys Associations stance of having one team from each region of the country. I really feel the IAHSAA is a bit out of touch.
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