To be fair, Martensdale - St. Mary's isn't a parochial school. St. Mary's is the name of a town.
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And Martensdale St. Marys is not in Des Moines. It is 20 miles to the South of Des Moines. It is a public school consisting of the towns of Martensdale and St. Marys. At least get your examples right.
He said a couple of miles. You make your own interpretation of what a couple of miles is and then make an argument against him based on your own definition -- not his.
Your debating win % must be flawless using that tactic.
From my vantage I would say 15 miles is certainly not "a couple of miles".
One thing I will agree w/ folks on is that great coaching is what is req'd not just location. Having said that, if I had to build a program and my life depended on its success? I would choose a class A or class 1A parochial that is located in a large metropolitan area that was home to at least one if not multiple 4A schools. Huge inventory to draw athletes from. Not far for them to commute to my school because I am in the same city. Also I would make sure my staff is top notch.
That is a great advantage over a class A or Class 1A school that is located 15 miles or more from any city of any size and your community or communities if a consolidated district are 2500 population or less compared to that of large metro populations.
CERTAINLY the coaching has to be there regardless, but of the alternatives I would choose a parochial in an Iowa City, a Cedar Rapids, a Des Moines, a Council Bluffs, etc. over a small town of 2500 or less a good distance from any other community. I do not see how you can argue which is the better and more fertile ground to build a successful athletic program.
If you suck as a coach? Sure thing in that it does not matter where you are located. But if you and the staff are good? I know where I would want to coach and what type of school if my life depended on success. Not even close.
Did I just start another parochial schools located in large metro areas that play small class ball have an unfair advantage debate? Oh-oh
This post was edited on 10/23 2:42 PM by NoJustice
I guess that leaves out Solon, Harlan, Emmetsburg, Iowa City West, Linn Mar, Wapsie Valley etc. etc.
He said if I had to BUILD a program... he didn't say if I had to take over an already successful one. Building a program assumes a team with no real history of success.
So your saying you consider a couple miles...10, but 14 is outside of town? Wow...
A couple is 2, so...
When I said "a couple of miles", that is pretty accurate. Gilbertville city limits are probably not much more than a mile from Waterloo city limits. At least according to the google map I was looking at. AND, there is a HUGE difference between "a couple of miles" and 10 miles or 14 miles or 15 miles as some of your original examples were.
The person I made that comment to was trying to say that historically Don Bosco hasn't benefited from being close to Waterloo. All I can say is
% wise, compared to public schools in rural area, how many private schools are really successful that are in bum%#!#ed Egypt? Answer? None. Western Christian is great in basketball year in and year out but they are an anomaly with all the small towns bunched in that area and other characteristics.
This post was edited on 10/24 5:39 PM by icu81222
Do you think those teams I mentioned just flourished out of nowhere? A small private school in a metropolitan area has no more advantages than the schools I listed. Have you seen Solons facilities? Top notch. Have you seen Regina's? Not so much. Why would a James Morris start out in the Regina system but end up at Solon? If I had to build a program...give me a school anywhere with committed parents, growing, money, committed administration etc......private has nothing to do with it. How about BGM....they didn't even field a team a few years ago. Out in the middle of nowhere by the way. They are where they are because of what I just mentioned.......maybe not growing much but they have everything else. If it can be done there.....it can be done other places.
As mentioned. Coaching is a huge factor in EVERY program.
You could not be more wrong. Look at the FACTS of recent history/last decade or so.
Fort Dodge St Edmonds. Check
Carroll-Kuemper. Check
Iowa City Regina. Check
Council Bluffs St Albert-Check
Mason City Newman-Check
Don Bosco-Waterloo*Gilbertville-Check (had to jab there)
Dyersville Beckman-Check (they aren't in a "Metro" area but they have surrounding population base.
Pella Christian (has been pretty good most years)
Algona Garrigan (has been pretty good many years)
Des Moines Christian has been pretty good many if not most years)
Western Christian. They have been decent in FB but GREAT in BB. Again, they are the outlier.
I'm not sure what more you need to see here?
They are 3A. The "problem" took care of itself. Now? They are good but not super elite. You are seeing the same thing with other fast growing bedroom type communities around the state. They are going to be 3A soon. Problem solved. People often throw out Harlan too. 3A!!!!!! Not an issue.
So you are saying there can't be ANY small schools have some success or it cancels out the argument? LOL
You would have been better off using Emmetsburg as an example. There are ALWAYS going to be teams that excel.
But the facts are not behind your arguments. In the recent history, the % of private schools in metro areas having success is incomparable to public schools in rural areas..
This post was edited on 10/24 8:01 PM by icu81222
How many private schools do you know in BFE?Originally posted by icu81222:
When I said "a couple of miles", that is pretty accurate. Gilbertville city limits are probably not much more than a mile from Waterloo city limits. At least according to the google map I was looking at. AND, there is a HUGE difference between "a couple of miles" and 10 miles or 14 miles or 15 miles as some of your original examples were.
The person I made that comment to was trying to say that historically Don Bosco hasn't benefited from being close to Waterloo. All I can say is
% wise, compared to public schools in rural area, how many private schools are really successful that are in bum%#!#ed Egypt? Answer? None. Western Christian is great in basketball year in and year out but they are an anomaly with all the small towns bunched in that area and other characteristics.
This post was edited on 10/24 5:39 PM by icu81222
Western Iowa has better support for Catholic schools than Eastern Iowa. I think Beckman is about the most rural school at a solid size in the East side.
Cedar Valley Christian in Cedar Rapids
Waterloo Christian in Waterloo
Ankeny Christian in Ankeny
DM Grandview Park... Des Moines
DM Christian... Des Moines
Pella Christian... Pella
Western Christian...
Iowa Mennonite... Iowa City/Williamsburg
Martensdale St. Mary's...--- Probably one of the most rural private schools yet they dominated baseball for multiple years...
Remsen St. Mary's...
LeMars Gehlen... LeMars
Fort Dodge St. Edmond... Fort Dodge
Dyersville Beckman...
Davenport Assumption... Davenport
Algona Garrigan... Algona
Sioux City Heelan... Sioux City
West Des Moines Dowling... West Des Moines
CR Xavier... Cedar Rapids
Dubuque Wahlert... Dubuque
Don Bosco... 6 miles from Evansdale. 10 from Waterloo. I grew up there. If you want to make an argument for getting more access for students than you have a better argument saying LaPorte City. Waterloo Christian and Columbus are in the middle of Waterloo, so why don't they get these great players from the public schools?
Wow. You should probably just step away from this conversation and topic. You aren't even in the same stratosphere and have repeatedly failed to make any point here.Originally posted by maxstabs13:
How many private schools do you know in BFE?Originally posted by icu81222:
When I said "a couple of miles", that is pretty accurate. Gilbertville city limits are probably not much more than a mile from Waterloo city limits. At least according to the google map I was looking at. AND, there is a HUGE difference between "a couple of miles" and 10 miles or 14 miles or 15 miles as some of your original examples were.
The person I made that comment to was trying to say that historically Don Bosco hasn't benefited from being close to Waterloo. All I can say is
% wise, compared to public schools in rural area, how many private schools are really successful that are in bum%#!#ed Egypt? Answer? None. Western Christian is great in basketball year in and year out but they are an anomaly with all the small towns bunched in that area and other characteristics.
This post was edited on 10/24 5:39 PM by icu81222
Western Iowa has better support for Catholic schools than Eastern Iowa. I think Beckman is about the most rural school at a solid size in the East side.
Cedar Valley Christian in Cedar Rapids
Waterloo Christian in Waterloo
Ankeny Christian in Ankeny
DM Grandview Park... Des Moines
DM Christian... Des Moines
Pella Christian... Pella
Western Christian...
Iowa Mennonite... Iowa City/Williamsburg
Martensdale St. Mary's...--- [/B]Probably one of the most rural private schools [/B]yet they dominated baseball for multiple years...
Remsen St. Mary's...
LeMars Gehlen... LeMars
Fort Dodge St. Edmond... Fort Dodge
Dyersville Beckman...
Davenport Assumption... Davenport
Algona Garrigan... Algona
Sioux City Heelan... Sioux City
West Des Moines Dowling... West Des Moines
CR Xavier... Cedar Rapids
Dubuque Wahlert... Dubuque
Don Bosco... 6 miles from Evansdale. 10 from Waterloo. I grew up there. If you want to make an argument for getting more access for students than you have a better argument saying LaPorte City. Waterloo Christian and Columbus are in the middle of Waterloo, so why don't they get these great players from the public schools?
Not to mention, I've highlighted one of your most inaccurate attempts at an argument. (HINT: MTSM isn't a private school)
As I mentioned also, Gilbertville isn't "10 miles" from Waterloo. As far as I can tell, (there is not much more than a mile from the city limits of Waterloo to the city limits of Gilbertville. Downtown Waterloo? Yep, I'd give you that one. Heck, Des Moines Christian is probably farther from downtown Des Moines than DB is from downtown Waterloo.
Here are a few tidbits I located:
Gilbertville is a city in Black Hawk County, Iowa, United States. The population was 712 at the 2010 census. It is part of the Waterloo?Cedar Falls Metropolitan Statistical Area.[/B] Wikipedia
Also: Gilbertville is located within minutes of Waterloo and boasts quality living with small town values.
Also from the Gilbertville site: "The public school system is the Waterloo School Systems. For additional information, log on to their website at www.waterloo.k12.ia.us"
and "The city contracts with the Waterloo Public Library for services"
I've gone back and re-read your posts and I still have no idea what point you are trying to make. (For example: why list all the large private schools in metro areas?????)
Hopefully, you now realize we are talking about the advantages that private schools have that are competing in the smaller classes yet are in large population bases compared to the small public schools that don't have the population base to draw from. Maybe mine above will help you out?
This post was edited on 10/25 12:37 AM by icu81222
Your whole premise is false. You are just another public school excuse maker. Why do you never complain when private schools, like public schools have down years. I'm all for having separate classes. We will then see who the cream of the crop is and where the best athletes will end up. You see it in all the states that have separate classes. Face it, the private schools do it better than government schools in everything, athletics included. But it is not because of some unfair built in advantage that you want to constantly claim. There now that we agree on separate classes, do you feel better? Sure you do.
Seriously, get over yourself, you can throw out all the "facts" you want, you still come off as a whiner. Not good.
This post was edited on 10/25 10:29 PM by long-may-u-run
Seriously, get over yourself, you can throw out all the "facts" you want, you still come off as a whiner. Not good.
This post was edited on 10/25 10:29 PM by long-may-u-run
Ahhhh.....I see. A few of you throw out some random BS and then when you are called on it with facts you cry. That's fine. It's becoming the American way.
I've never said we need separate classes. EVER. I simply state the obvious AND I backed it up with facts. The issue, as always, is private schools in metro or well populated areas. Period. That's one reason why I never have had a problem with a school like Western Christian.
Now, it's obvious you are really butt hurt here and I apologize if I embarrassed you. Unfortunately, that's reality. If you have some other truths or facts that you want to try and fabricate or pull out, please, do so now. Otherwise, you too should stop the futility.
Man, you have some anger issues. Did you get your arse handed to you by a private school back in the day or what. You don't have facts to back you up. You have opinions that you attempt to back up with so- called facts but they aren't. Where is the private school domination in 8 man, a or 1a football? Especially at the championship level? Not there. You cherry pick successful private school programs in metro areas and conveniently leave out successful public schools programs that have long histories of winning. What's Wapsie valley's inherent advantage? But go ahead, keep whining. That IS the American way now. In fact, what you should do is file a formal bullying complaint agains all private schools in metro areas. A class action suit if you will. That will take care of the inherent advantages they have. But the real secret is this. They have God on their side. Don't tell anyone. THAT really is an advantage. Butt hurt? What are you 15 years old? That's what I thought. Carry on your crusade. It's never been discussed on here before. But you are winning.....you are WINNING, butt hurt......that really hurts my feelings....and if anyone cares about feelings it should be you. Carry on.
Council Bluffs St. Albert. They have not lost a district game since 2006. That is 53 straight district games won. Is this not domination? Iowa City, Regina. They actually have a nice little win streak of their own if you haven't noticed. Not domination?
As for the private schools being better at everything than "government schools", take a look at the Academic All-State players from the past. Excluding Fort Dodge St Edmond's and perhaps Pella Christian, it's not exactly what you call impressive. How can these schools that are on another pedestal in every aspect fail to show it here?
Wapsie's advantage, along with several other schools such as West Lyon, Emmetsburg, Aplington-Parkersburg, is coaching and tradition. The talent level and work ethic they posses also don't hurt their chances. Most of the time schools suffer a rebuild period where they just don't have the athletes coming through. Private schools tend not to experience this as badly. Again, take a look at Emmetsburg, Aplington-Parkersburg, Lenox, Armstrong-Ringsted, Logan-Magnolia, some are still having good seasons, but not the same dominance they were having.
I don't have an issue with a team having 30-40 kids on the team, as long as the enrollment fits within the guidelines. If you're a school that dropped down based on projections, you better not have those kinds of numbers, IMO. In 8-man, Wayne got in based on enrollment projections last year, but they still haven't seen their enrollment actually fall below the line. But in 2011, when they were still in 1A, they had about 20 players and finished the last game of the season with 12 (couple kids quit, missed a few starters who were at the national FFA convention, and then had a few injuries in the last game). You can't possibly hope to compete in 11-man with numbers like that.
Now, Wayne has around 25 kids in 8-man, even though their enrollment is in line with most Class A schools.
Classification can't be determined (reliably) on actual participation, because it can fluctuate too much from year to year. It should be based on POTENTIAL participants. A school might have 120 kids, but say less than 50 of them are boys. Most schools aren't going to get even 50% participation out of the available students, so you're usually looking at getting about 20-25 kids out for football in this scenario. That's pretty borderline for 11-man.
But if a school gets a higher participation rate, I don't think they should be punished for that.
Regina is good because of the coaching...
If they had advantages then it has shown no effects on IC West, IC High, or Solon(About as far from IC as Don Bosco is from Waterloo.
I am not in the "know" with Western Iowa football, but Heelan and St. Albert have been good for a long time and the CB and SC public schools have been bad for a while. I think the public schools in both those cities are finally getting some coaches who are solid and willing to stick around and have shown signs of improvement.
No matter what school it is the coaching is the most important thing to start with. The facilities/money/parent support is the next thing. Lastly, it is the athletes that you have.
The only thing I can say is metro schools would have an advantage as far as more opportunities to get a good coach, but the loyalty to smaller towns usually results in more of a commitment to a program and allows more of a traditional opportunity as a result.
Teams like Emmetsburg, AP, Regina, Solon, Dyersville Beckman, Harlan, Heelan, Bettendorf, and so on... They built tradition at the schools by incorporating a good coaching foundation that stuck with the program. Nothing to do with metro or private schools.
If they had advantages then it has shown no effects on IC West, IC High, or Solon(About as far from IC as Don Bosco is from Waterloo.
I am not in the "know" with Western Iowa football, but Heelan and St. Albert have been good for a long time and the CB and SC public schools have been bad for a while. I think the public schools in both those cities are finally getting some coaches who are solid and willing to stick around and have shown signs of improvement.
No matter what school it is the coaching is the most important thing to start with. The facilities/money/parent support is the next thing. Lastly, it is the athletes that you have.
The only thing I can say is metro schools would have an advantage as far as more opportunities to get a good coach, but the loyalty to smaller towns usually results in more of a commitment to a program and allows more of a traditional opportunity as a result.
Teams like Emmetsburg, AP, Regina, Solon, Dyersville Beckman, Harlan, Heelan, Bettendorf, and so on... They built tradition at the schools by incorporating a good coaching foundation that stuck with the program. Nothing to do with metro or private schools.
Yes....unless you believe these smaller schools are actively recruiting ATHLETES at a very young age from the larger community. Trust me, Regina and schools like it are not genetically testing newborns at the local hospital for athletic ability and possible recruitment. Nor are they turning away hundreds each year to remain a smaller school.
I will be honest here. I am not sure how things have gone on the West side of the state, but I know the three major metro areas on the East side and know a little about Dubuque/Iowa City as well. Everything that I know about the East side big metro schools is that they don't have issues with recruitment from the private schools.
More often than not I hear about better athletes going from the bad public schools to the better athletic programs for public schools.
For example... I don't know how long Cortez Seales has gone to North Scott(Eldridge), but he lives in Davenport and is in the Davenport North school district. My guess is he open enrolled at some point for the athletic programs they have.
I know of some good wrestlers who transferred to Bettendorf. I believe one of them was with Assumption prior to the move.
I lived in Waterloo and played football at West. West hadn't had a winning sophomore football team in about 20 years. We had a good class and had a winning record as sophomores which was the first time in like 18 years. The freshman behind our class was not so good, but the 2 classes following them were solid and at no point did we lose any players to any private schools or small schools. Columbus would have been a prime school to change over to since they had a recent State Title at that time. If anyone left it was a parental choice for a better schooling environment or the parents had the money to pay.
Good players don't want to leave a big school for a small school unless they are not good enough to play at the big school, but how often do you really think parents or kids really want to change schools when they likely grew up with most the kids they are in school with.
Don Bosco doesn't get Waterloo athletes unless the family moved to the area. If they were getting them than it is because they didn't make it in the bigger schools.
My guess is your saying the small schools around 4A towns see better competition growing up? That is really the only advantage that I can possibly conceive. For that I can reference my past posts regarding Dunkerton to Waterloo compared to Don Bosco to Waterloo.
When I was growing up playing Waterloo Flag football we played teams from Waterloo, Cedar Falls, Denver, LaPorte City, Wapsie Valley, Dike, Parkersburg, Hudson, Janesville, and wait for it... Dunkerton. We never played any team/teams from Don Bosco. Personally, I can say that Dunkerton was the worst team we faced in my 3 years. We had an instance where we were up 42-0 in the 2nd quarter and my dad had put in all our reserves since the first quarter. The smallest kid on our team hit one of the biggest on there team with a block and the coach said we hit to hard so they quit and left at halftime.
IT COACHING AND EVERYTHING ELSE IS EXCUSES.
This post was edited on 10/29 9:16 PM by maxstabs13
Players will gravitate to great coaching. At the A or 1A level it takes less additions to make a big difference in how good a team is than you may think.
Your statement here is heavy in superlatives, but that is not what I have said -- ever. Unfortunately I cannot make my point any more basic or less clear.
Not exaggerating anything. If you believe that kids are joining these schools at a later time than grade school please provide evidence of it happening on a large scale. What evidence did a Regina have that Cook would be a great coach and have athletic kids? For example. I have seen more public school kids leave for other public schools for athletic reasons than public school kids joining private schools for athletic reasons. You seem to believe what I stated earlier but just don't want to say it.
