Rise of the Private Schools

[DarkThunder#61]

A well-known debate that has raged on in most sports across Iowa athletics (on the boys side of things) seems to have finally reached the door steps of girls basketball.

Sure volleyball gets annually dominated by private schools, but to be blunt no one has cared enough to make an argument.

This year's state tournament is unprecedented for a number of reasons. Not just for the fact that they've added a 5th class, but that FOUR of the five finals feature private schools. Two have already claimed titles and are considered two of the best teams regardless of class in the state.

Never before had more than 2 private schools won state in the same year. Now there's a chance for four to win it. Here's some fun facts:

- 1998 was the first year two private schools won state titles (Kuemper/3A and Dowling/4A)
- 1998, 2008, and 2012 are the only years where two private schools won state titles (Assumption/2A and Heelan/3A in '08; Western/2A and Assumption/3A in '12)
- WDM Dowling was the first private school to win a state title in 1992 (5-player) and first to win a title after they went to classes (1996 4A). Kuemper's title in '98 was the first by a private school other than Dowling, and CR Xavier's in 2003 was the next besides Dowling's powerhouse.

Needless to say for most of girls' basketball history, private schools were not dominating the scene. Not on the same level as the boys albeit by the 90s and into the 2000s boys private schools began to pick up steam throughout the state and not just with the traditional powers like Dowling or Assumption.

Before this year, 21 private school teams have played in the state finals since the Union went to four classes in 1994. CB St. Albert was the first 2A team to play in the finals in 2001- they lost to North Cedar. Assumption in '08 and Western in '12 were the other two small division schools to play for state titles since 1994. Every other state title a private school played in was at the 3A or 4A level mostly by Dowling, Heelan, Assumption or Xavier.

Last year's finals was the first year 3 private schools made it to the championship round, however Pella Christian was facing Western for the 2A title.

Now we get to 2013. While 3 of the 4 in the finals are traditional powers it is still interesting to see the sudden rise of girls private school basketball across the state.

Central Lyon defeated Newell-Fonda in Class 1A, the only one to not feature a private school.

2A- Western Christian defeated Lawton-Bronson
3A- Davenport Assumption defeated Estherville-Lincoln Central
4A- CR Xavier faces Harlan
5A- Dowling faces SE Polk

Also something interesting to point out, and most interesting to me...10 private schools reached the state tournament in 5 classes for the girls, compared to just 6 for the boys this year. Last year 8 girls teams made it with 2 champions, compared to 6 boys teams again, with no champions.

So what does this mean?

It's not because private schools have advantages that all of the sudden we're seeing an unprecedented growth in the number of good (championship-winning) private school girls basketball teams.

Some like the traditional powers will always be there, especially Assumption as long as they get to play in a strictly now-predominantly 5A conference and then drop to 3A for tournament time. but more and more are beginning to mirror their successful boys programs in order to take the next steps in becoming winning programs of their own. Take a look at Western Christian for an example of this. Western plays an up-tempo, fast-paced style very similar to their boys and that's been a big key to their success. Before their current coach got there, I would have to assume that they weren't playing this way, because they hadn't won a state tourney game in 4 trips prior to last year.

Just something interesting to point out.

 

[bigfridaynite]

Good post thunder i'm sure you done a lot of research to get your facts.
The only thing I'll say is Davenport Assumption has had serveral different coaching staffs over the last few years so I would say having the best talent around would play a big part in what they have accomplish.
Davenport A. is a very good team and I wish they where playing 5a ball at state so we all could see just how good they are.
I do think these private schools could have one heck of a Private Tournament or just go to 5a and show the rest of the State what you really have put together.

 

[coach'd]

I have seen this discussion on the girls side before, last year there was a lengthy thread concerning this subject, but it generally falls into the line of they are better because they recruit these players and similar comments. I think your comment on the style of play is more correct on the reason for success, and I think personally there is one main reason, and that is the coaching and the youth program successful schools have.

I have mentioned before in different threads on this subject, show me a successful program, either public or private, and more than likely they will have a successful youth program. I am in the CR metro area, and Xavier gets mentioned at times as having an good team and they must be recruiting. Knowing a few of the programs and plus some parents and also refs, Xavier has a very good youth program that starts in the 4th grade. These kids for the most part are playing year round with their teams, and they have a youth coordinator who helps coordinate the program.

I think this subject will get lost in the recruiting debate line, but having watched girls basketball evolve from the 6 player game to today over the past 40 years, I will say that the coaching and style of play is the main reason.

 

[bigfridaynite]

I totally agree with alot of what your saying I don't believe private schools recruit at High School level and I do believe they have very strong youth programs.
I do know when the youth programs start up and the parents start coaching the kids there is always a leader of a group of parents that will select the top girls at a young age to be on a taveling team ECT.. and that group of girls gets very tight. When you have a very large group to chose from and they all stick together a school is going to have very good results.
When schools such has a Keokuk,Mt.P. or Washington has thier kids start in youth programs and you have 15 to 20 kids per class to pick from and not 200 kids to pick from it makes the odds a little tough down the road.JMO

 

[loco60]

Nobody wants to address the elephant in the room. Public schools, in the whole, are failing at their mission to educate our youth. There are some athletic programs that do better than others in the public area, but that often connects to accomplished leaders or program builders. The community doesn't always "connect" with their public school. This is NOT often the case with private schools.

Whether it is athletics or academics, a school will do best with involved parents, community sponsor or leaders, good school staff and committed volunteers. America is moving, more and more, to a national or state model and that makes it even more difficult for public schools to form those local connections that so matter.

An example that matters, is the law that restricts lunches to 850 calories. The national government thrusts that upon the schools and doesn't take into consideration volleyball or football or basketball, all high calorie sports. They don't even take into account the nutrition necessary to learn. All of it is buttressed by the national "obesity" epidemic, but it sure doesn't seem like the volleyballers, footballers or basketballers are less trim than before.

Of course, it is much easier to claim recruiting, or some other bogeyman, but the essential difference is that private schools are local and have lots of skin in the game and public schools are less local, reducing skin in the game. Of course, there are good public schools and great athletic programs within public schools, but it seems obvious that the public schools are declining rather than advancing. Sports is a lagging indicator, compared to academics.

Give school vouchers a try and see if parents send their children to poor performing schools or good performing schools. I think they will head for the better academic outcomes that are reasonably available to them.

 

[Woobster]

Don't forget the economics of this situation and the effect that has on programs.

 

[Rose bowl or bust]

Originally posted by loco60:
Nobody wants to address the elephant in the room. Public schools, in the whole, are failing at their mission to educate our youth. There are some athletic programs that do better than others in the public area, but that often connects to accomplished leaders or program builders. The community doesn't always "connect" with their public school. This is NOT often the case with private schools.

Whether it is athletics or academics, a school will do best with involved parents, community sponsor or leaders, good school staff and committed volunteers. America is moving, more and more, to a national or state model and that makes it even more difficult for public schools to form those local connections that so matter.

An example that matters, is the law that restricts lunches to 850 calories. The national government thrusts that upon the schools and doesn't take into consideration volleyball or football or basketball, all high calorie sports. They don't even take into account the nutrition necessary to learn. All of it is buttressed by the national "obesity" epidemic, but it sure doesn't seem like the volleyballers, footballers or basketballers are less trim than before.

Of course, it is much easier to claim recruiting, or some other bogeyman, but the essential difference is that private schools are local and have lots of skin in the game and public schools are less local, reducing skin in the game. Of course, there are good public schools and great athletic programs within public schools, but it seems obvious that the public schools are declining rather than advancing. Sports is a lagging indicator, compared to academics.

Give school vouchers a try and see if parents send their children to poor performing schools or good performing schools. I think they will head for the better academic outcomes that are reasonably available to them.

How would this change the schools? Parental involvement is still the driving force of success. The parents who care will send their kids to the same school, leaving one school with a bunch of kids that will dominate. The parents who don't care, and by extension kids who don't care, will all be left at subpar schools.

The better questions is how do we get parents and kids to care about their school and athletics again? There will also be a segment of society that takes the education and other opportunities for granted, but we need to capture some of these people back into thinking of these as opportunities.

 

[house54hoops]

I think the private school girls teams will win even more championships than the boys in the future. I think there is a couple reasons for this.

It already has been stated but there are some public schools that have great feeder programs and are in the state tournament often but I don't feel they have enough really good players when it counts. I look at the 2A title game last night as a perfect example. LB played a great game and ran with WC for most of the game. When they had an injury and some players foul out, they couldn't keep up that pace. They just didn't have enough horses in the stable. Had the rolls been reversed, there would've been a drop off for Western, but I don't fell like it would've been as much of a burden for them.

Also, I look at youth tournaments for both boys and girls in my area, and I see 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th grade teams from private schools where as the public schools may have a 6th and 8th grade team only. That is a huge advantage to not have a gap year in there. I remember posters talking about AP this year and how they made such a great run with 12 seniors, which is an amazing accomplishment BTW, who stuck it out together. Now I am not familiar with their program but I would imagine that there will be a considerable drop off next year when there isn't a lot varsity experience coming back.

Lastly, I feel that girls basketball is so much more cerebral in they way they shoot, anticipate, and execute than their counterparts. When you play more, you react quicker. Boys teams are more likely to have 2 dominate athletes who can at least keep them in a game to give them a chance to win at the end. I have seen many great female athletes who can run and jump really well but couldn't dribble around a defender if their life depended on it.

 

[smallcenter]

If you truly don't think there is recruiting going on in high school sports then you are blind and ignorant. Is that recruiting enough to make a difference? I don't know. However, I'll tell you this. I think it's crappy that a team (Assumption) that plays a 5A schedule gets to drop down and play in the 3A tourney. That's about the same as playing the varsity starters in the J/V game.

That is all.

 

[wolfpackattack]

But their enrollment puts them in 3a so what are they supposed to do? Since MOC-FV plays a mostly 1a and 2a schedule, should they be allowed to drop down? Their JV team could probably beat some of the Varsity teams they play in conference so....Just because they're Assumpsion and they're good and they play a bunch of big schools during the regular season doesn't change the fact that their enrollment makes them a 3a school. Sour grapes.

 

[ORSKY1]

The Assumption girls have played together since they were in youth ball and have been classmates all along. They are not getting girls in at the high school level. But even if they did, the good public schools pick up players all the time. There are always parents wanting thier kids to play on the best team. Not saying it's right, but open enrollment allows this to happen all the time. Particularly in football where Bettendorf picks up kids from other schools routinely. Some as freshman, others at higher grades. The current rules allow this and it will continue for the foreseeable future.

 

[loco60]

Vouchers would put skin in the game for parents. If parents choose to have their kids educated in a less effective school, then that is their choice. The public school system should compete with the private school system in all respects.

Vouchers would matter a lot. Public schools would have to "right size", based on whether or not they committed to achievement or maintaining the status quo or continuous decline.

 

[denverhawkfan]

Originally posted by house54hoops:
I think the private school girls teams will win even more championships than the boys in the future. I think there is a couple reasons for this.

It already has been stated but there are some public schools that have great feeder programs and are in the state tournament often but I don't feel they have enough really good players when it counts. I look at the 2A title game last night as a perfect example. LB played a great game and ran with WC for most of the game. When they had an injury and some players foul out, they couldn't keep up that pace. They just didn't have enough horses in the stable. Had the rolls been reversed, there would've been a drop off for Western, but I don't fell like it would've been as much of a burden for them.

Also, I look at youth tournaments for both boys and girls in my area, and I see 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th grade teams from private schools where as the public schools may have a 6th and 8th grade team only. That is a huge advantage to not have a gap year in there. I remember posters talking about AP this year and how they made such a great run with 12 seniors, which is an amazing accomplishment BTW, who stuck it out together. Now I am not familiar with their program but I would imagine that there will be a considerable drop off next year when there isn't a lot varsity experience coming back.

Lastly, I feel that girls basketball is so much more cerebral in they way they shoot, anticipate, and execute than their counterparts. When you play more, you react quicker. Boys teams are more likely to have 2 dominate athletes who can at least keep them in a game to give them a chance to win at the end. I have seen many great female athletes who can run and jump really well but couldn't dribble around a defender if their life depended on it.

I believe AP had 1 junior out for basketball this year and then the class before this one didn't have any seniors out last year so there was a gap on both sides of this group. There will definitely be a huge dropoff next year for coach Wedeking but not much you can do about it if the parents don't get the kids together and in some tournaments at an early age. Coach Hempen was still boys coach at North Butler when he organized these girls to play tournaments starting in 3rd grade and they all stuck with it every year since then, despite all the flack they took from the class or two older than them.

Not sure what 2A and 1A schools are supposed to do to try to avoid a drop off. It's a numbers thing and when you have high school season and then club season and then aau and then summer tournaments and the list goes on and on. Smaller schools just don't have enough numbers to not have a drop off, whether it be in basketball or a different sport depending on the school. Seems each sport is getting to the point where they all have a time committment for most of the year. My oldest daughter is in 3rd grade and after a few games on saturdays in Nov/Dec we then played 2 tournaments in January and were done for the year. We had to join with the 4th graders for one of them to have enough. It would be nice to be able to play a couple more tournaments yet this year but they also have indoor soccer league and then spring soccer league and right when that gets done they will probably have a couple soccer tournaments and then you have travel league for softball. Then to top it off someone approached her about playing club volleyball next winter as that starts in 4th grade I guess. Not sure where there is time for that out of season sport too and just amazed at all the different directions kids get pulled nowadays.

 

[Rose bowl or bust]

Originally posted by loco60:
Vouchers would put skin in the game for parents. If parents choose to have their kids educated in a less effective school, then that is their choice. The public school system should compete with the private school system in all respects.

Vouchers would matter a lot. Public schools would have to "right size", based on whether or not they committed to achievement or maintaining the status quo or continuous decline.

This is not true loco. If a crappy parent who doesn't care about education and discipline of their child moves their child to a "better" school, that kid still isn't going to care or try. The school is going to suffer because they've got some kid in class that is a distraction. The kid isn't going to improve.

The biggest problem in our educational system today is the parents. Get them involved...get them to care...get them to understand that school isn't a babysitting center with a little education. The parent who isn't involved isn't going to become involved just because you let them have a choice which school not to be involved in.

 

[smallcenter]

Originally posted by denverhawkfan:

Originally posted by house54hoops:
I think the private school girls teams will win even more championships than the boys in the future. I think there is a couple reasons for this.

It already has been stated but there are some public schools that have great feeder programs and are in the state tournament often but I don't feel they have enough really good players when it counts. I look at the 2A title game last night as a perfect example. LB played a great game and ran with WC for most of the game. When they had an injury and some players foul out, they couldn't keep up that pace. They just didn't have enough horses in the stable. Had the rolls been reversed, there would've been a drop off for Western, but I don't fell like it would've been as much of a burden for them.

Also, I look at youth tournaments for both boys and girls in my area, and I see 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th grade teams from private schools where as the public schools may have a 6th and 8th grade team only. That is a huge advantage to not have a gap year in there. I remember posters talking about AP this year and how they made such a great run with 12 seniors, which is an amazing accomplishment BTW, who stuck it out together. Now I am not familiar with their program but I would imagine that there will be a considerable drop off next year when there isn't a lot varsity experience coming back.

Lastly, I feel that girls basketball is so much more cerebral in they way they shoot, anticipate, and execute than their counterparts. When you play more, you react quicker. Boys teams are more likely to have 2 dominate athletes who can at least keep them in a game to give them a chance to win at the end. I have seen many great female athletes who can run and jump really well but couldn't dribble around a defender if their life depended on it.

I believe AP had 1 junior out for basketball this year and then the class before this one didn't have any seniors out last year so there was a gap on both sides of this group. There will definitely be a huge dropoff next year for coach Wedeking but not much you can do about it if the parents don't get the kids together and in some tournaments at an early age. Coach Hempen was still boys coach at North Butler when he organized these girls to play tournaments starting in 3rd grade and they all stuck with it every year since then, despite all the flack they took from the class or two older than them.

Not sure what 2A and 1A schools are supposed to do to try to avoid a drop off. It's a numbers thing and when you have high school season and then club season and then aau and then summer tournaments and the list goes on and on. Smaller schools just don't have enough numbers to not have a drop off, whether it be in basketball or a different sport depending on the school. Seems each sport is getting to the point where they all have a time committment for most of the year. My oldest daughter is in 3rd grade and after a few games on saturdays in Nov/Dec we then played 2 tournaments in January and were done for the year. We had to join with the 4th graders for one of them to have enough. It would be nice to be able to play a couple more tournaments yet this year but they also have indoor soccer league and then spring soccer league and right when that gets done they will probably have a couple soccer tournaments and then you have travel league for softball. Then to top it off someone approached her about playing club volleyball next winter as that starts in 4th grade I guess. Not sure where there is time for that out of season sport too and just amazed at all the different directions kids get pulled nowadays.

THIS is the problem with sports today. So many think that the kids have to play year round. Well, there were a lot of outstanding athletes that have done just fine without playing ONE sport year round and participating in ALL sports during their season. AAU and these clubs sports have ruined a lot of things. 3rd and 4th grade traveling basketball teams have ruined many things, and spoiled the game for many. If it were up to me AAU, YSF, club sports, and traveling youth teams would be eliminated all together and the kids would go back to learning the darn game by playing on a driveway or an open lot with their friends.

 

[denverhawkfan]

Originally posted by smallcenter:

THIS is the problem with sports today. So many think that the kids have to play year round. Well, there were a lot of outstanding athletes that have done just fine without playing ONE sport year round and participating in ALL sports during their season. AAU and these clubs sports have ruined a lot of things. 3rd and 4th grade traveling basketball teams have ruined many things, and spoiled the game for many. If it were up to me AAU, YSF, club sports, and traveling youth teams would be eliminated all together and the kids would go back to learning the darn game by playing on a driveway or an open lot with their friends.

Couldn't agree more. There is no reason for a kid to specialize in a sport in 3rd grade. In the end it's all about money. AAU makes money having all thier club stuff and tournaments, just like the IGHSAU going to 5 classes. When kids skip a basketball season because they have club volleyball you can't tell me the clubs aren't encouraging it somehow.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Not certain all of those things should be eliminated, my kids have benefited greatly by playing on traveling teams, YSF etc. in their designated season, not a big fan of all the off season traveling etc. My kids go to a school that has a pretty solid football program and their off season requirement is that you are competing in something, basketball, golf, baseball, weight room etc. no off season football requirement.

 

[R1224]

It is refreshing to be on a sports site, and see so many people discussing education instead of just the sports aspect. It took sputnik in the sixties to get us to wake up and improve our education system. It took the United States losing a lot of jobs overseas to see the need to improve our schools. Now some of those jobs are starting to come back because we are still the most innovative country in the world.

As far as the recruiting thing goes, Assumption is the joker in the deck here. If you were a parent living in the Davenport school district, and had a chance to send your kid to Assumption, would you do it? I get the impression that an education at Assumption is better than Davenport public schools, perhaps much better. IF that is true, Assumption does not have to recruit, the kids naturally want to go there.

In Sioux City, Heelan is not that much better than the public schools, depending on where you live in SC. North is a good high school, as is East. West might be getting better than it was.

Carroll Kuemper does not have a great educational advantage over Carroll Public, from what I see.

What about St Edmonds vs Fort Dodge public? My brother's kids went to Ft Dodge public for several years, and it was not a good experience.

My point here is that good parents want to send their kids to good schools. Good teachers want good facilities and parental support. And it has been that way in this country since...the 1800's.

 

[WadeWubben]

I agree with a lot on here and offer these observations.
1) Let's be really honest and get rid of this idea there is no mechanism in place to bring kids to private schools...call it what you want. I know for a fact, from people who have been, but no longer are in private schools, who are now free to admit that there is wheeling and dealing. BUT- it warmed my heart a couple weeks back to see that Jok kid from Valley get beat out of the boys tourney by his former team- both institutions were public! So, it happens in a lot of places. At Manson Northwest Webster we had a young man leave our school last year 2nd semester and go to Kuemper- his family still lived up here and he stayed with someone in Carroll during the week. Many people will have different views on that decision- I for one believe that if he and his family thought is was best for him- then he should do it. I have absolutely nothing bad to say about it.
2) And "thunder" you know this better than anybody- the school where I teach, Manson Northwest Webster, has lost numerous kids over the years to St. Edmond. Used to be they would come to MNW up to 8th grade-then go to St. Ed's. But, St. Ed's is now k-12 so we never see them. What I miss most about those kids is that if I were to start naming names it is just a long list of quality kids who come from quality families. My goodness- when those kids walked out the door it was heartbreaking. But, they have every right to do so and I do not care what the reason is- whether it be the religious education or athletics. I did, however, as a football and basketball coach look up and down their roster and think of how much better we might have been with those kids that live in our district but went to private school!!
3) I have to tread lightly as my own children attended christian school for a period of time in their lives. My son went from 1st-8th grade, my daughters came over when one was going into 8th grade and one into 4th grade. I do not regret one bit having them in christian school....they received a great education and the school re-enforced the values and beliefs of our family through education. The discipline was outstanding. My son wore a shirt and tie to school everyday- AND HE LIVED!!!! We changed over because I wanted them to have the opportunity to be involved in activities, the school they attended was a small school with very few activities for students, and we also believed it was time to let them live their faith outside the christian school. So, I have no problem with parents who wish to have their children in a private school setting.

Is it frustrating to see these schools- that percentage-wise make up a small percentage of our schools but most years make up 25% of our state tourney field? Yes. Maybe I am just jealous- I don't know.....but I think when the stories come out about kids not even living in Iowa and yet attending "private" schools in Iowa- that is where people start to question...and I think with good reason. Now, that is not the norm and probably doesn't happen very often but it gives fuel to the fire of this debate. I really believe, in the end, God gave parents the "responsibility" for their children's education and parents need to do whatever they feel is best. Many of them have invested a great deal of money in their children's education- so in the end, who are we as outsiders to question that choice.

 

[o2bahawk]

Wade - you contradict yourself when you say that you have no problem with that kid going to Carroll Keumper if that's what his parents think is best for him, yet you have a problem with kids that might live in another state going to a private school. What if those kid's parents think it is the best for their kid that he attend a private school in another state then where they live. In fact, in some cases it probably is closer for the kid who lives in another state to travel to his school then it is for the kid from Northwest Weber to Carroll Keumper or St. Ed's. Same holds true for some kids who choose to open enroll at another school - they travel farther distances sometimes. In the end, doesn't it really come down to what the parents think is best for their kid regardless if they choose to attend a private school or open enroll from one public school to another?

 

[WadeWubben]

I don't see it as a contradiction...I see it as I think you open up a bigger can of worms when you start talking about crossing state lines- especially when we start talking athletics. I think when you have teams winning championships in Iowa and if they are doing it with kids from Illinois, Missouri, Nebraska, South dakota, Minnesota or wherever- I think that is different.

This post was edited on 3/7 12:20 PM by WadeWubben

 

[Rose bowl or bust]

What schools, other than Assumption or Heelan, have kids from out of state playing on there teams? These teams make sense, since they're large religious schools on the boarder. Just because a kid lives in South Sioux doesn't mean they should be able to attend Heelan if that is their choice.

If you're talking about a team in the middle of the state (West Marshall, Ames, South Hamilton, etc.) having kids from out of state, I'm not aware of that happening. If so, I guess I feel more in line with what you're saying. But like I've said, I'm not aware of that happening.

 

[thatiscorrect]

Manson NWW does as much as any private school would do in trying to gain students. Billboards right across from Fort dodge high, you can't turn to a radio station in nw iowa without a manson kid promoting their school, newsletters to everyone in the county..............It happens everywhere in the state in every school. Every parent is looking for the next best thing because they think the grass is greener on the other side. You can't tell me there is one coach in the state or one program in the state that does not at some level contact other players from other schools. I've been apart of a public school system and have seen for years at aau tournaments the head coach attend and talk to parents about coming there. Face it, its everywhere and will never change......

 

[Woobster]

I think you are wrong on the "contacting kids" part, especially if you are talking about playing sports...maybe where you are they do. As for billboards or radio advertising- yes, we rely heavily on open enrollment and we do reach out to parents in Ford Dodge...I think that is far different than contacting kids for sports. I coached varsity basketball for 20 years- never talked to a kid from another school about coming to MNW....but yes, MNW is very aggressive in marketing their school.

Personally, I think if you are going to participate in Iowa championships or teams in Iowa schools- I think you should be from Iowa- that is just my view. I understand where someone on the border would disagree with that.....but the question would become- if I drive 10 minutes from South Sioux- that is ok, but what if I drive 90 minutes to get to Manson- one is ok, one is not?

 

[Dancing With the Stars]

I've been coaching for 18 years and have never once talked to a kid from another school about coming to my school. If I wanted to do that I would coach in college. I'm sure there are coaches who do talk to kids, but saying all of us do is a huge exaggeration.

 

[cancer stick]

I do have to agree with there being an advantage the thing with private schools, rather than their being the eb and flow of talented kids like in a regular school (such as AP listed above) where they did have about a ten year run of 6ft girls that dominated in numerous sports and this years group that just had a lot of talented kids there isnt really much going for them athletically in the foreseeable future and thats ok. But at a private school you replenish that talent and can get kids that want a better school experience which is completely understandable heck Id do the exact same thing if I had the option back then. I think thats where the argument lays and will only get worse in the future years (especially in volleyball and basketball) where time and money are huge parts of success in those sports.
Im sure every one of us has seen a economically poor community that is very poor athletically in everything and they look like theyve never seen a ball before hs and its that way over and over again, there isnt a quick fix to bring those communities up to par with private schools there is to much at play (such as jobs and the hours the adults have to work).

 

[Dancing With the Stars]

What if it's a small private school like Don Bosco or Newman, a 1A school that has maybe 40 kids per class? And then that school comes to a run of maybe three grades that are heavy on one gender or the other, say only 10-15 girls/grade for three years in a row. That's as hard to overcome for a private as it is a public school. Why does the private school have an advantage there? They have most of their kids from kindergarten on up, just like publics. I would say, having been in both private and public schools that the privates have a higher percentage of their kids that take part in extracurricular things. But having a class with only 10 boys or only 10 girls is going to tough no matter what.

 

[hawkbb101]

I have always thought that privates should have to play up and my reasoning is this. These are just random numbers, lets say Assumption has 300 kids. They still have probably 200 kids to choose from for athletics. If a school like DM Hoover has 800 kids, they still only have about 200-300 kids to choose from for athletics because 500 of those kids are not going to play any athletics, so just because they have that many more kids they should have to play harder competition than a private school. I am not saying the privates should play 5A but at least one class higher.

 

[Dancing With the Stars]

But just because they draw the kind of kid/families that participate more in extras? Don't agree with that. 200 kids is 200 kids, and if more take part at one school there's not much you can do about it. Maybe a multiplier, but a blanket "up one class" I don't think is right. And like you, I don't know the numbers, but let's maybe say take the enrollment of a private times 1.25 or something and see where they fall. If a private is at the bottom of their division, just automatically going up to the next one wouldn't be fair, I don't think. Maybe a multiplier though.

 

[ORSKY1]

Close the open enrollment for publics and then you may have an argument for private school multiplier. As long as there is open enrollment leave the system alone. You can't manage every problem that can arise for both private and public when enrollement for public is open.

 

[wolfpackattack]

From Illinois High School Association

IHSA By-Law 3.170 requires a 1.65 multiplier be applied to the enrollment of every non-boundaried school.

so if we want to be like Illinois and have a multiplier, then we have to eliminate open enrollment in public schools.

Here is a link to the entire page on Illinois Multiplier.

http://www.ihsa.org/Schools/EnrollmentsClassifications/MultiplierWaivers.aspx

 

[o2bahawk]

Or you apply the multiplier to every school if you keep open enrollment.
This post was edited on 3/9 10:06 PM by o2bahawk

 

[ORSKY1]

which would be exactly the same structure as we have today.

 

[caligirl1963]

I think a great solution is that private schools should play in their own state tournament....then if they recruit or don't or whatever....they can battle it all out on equal ground.

 

[pmknicks]

Using that system Dowling, Heelan, Xavier and Assumption win nearly every title, with Western competing in a few sports. Might be missing someone but not sure putting Siouxland Christian and Heelan in the same class is a great idea.

This post was edited on 5/10 8:59 PM by pmknicks

 

[pmknicks]

Great article in Register today addressing disparity of level playing field among schools. The IGHSAU and IAHSAA should certainly act on that. As an added bonus a quote including part of the coaches responsibility is recruiting. Interested on thoughts from those who read it.

 

[hawkbb101]

I did read that article. While it was interesting to hear about the disparity in spending its not like that was not common knowledge and the basis for the article was coaching salaries. The totaled up all of the coaches salaries within the school's district. The highest spenders did pay a little more for each position but the schools with the highest total had 7th grade sports still accounting for a large amount of salary plus they have to have more coaches at the younger levels because of large numbers. So total amount of salary doesn't tell very much of the story.

I am not sure what you would want the associations to do about it. If schools can and are willing to pay thats their choice.

 

[pmknicks]

I think you missed my attempt at sarcasm. Another point the article made was the vast difference in facilities on the CIML schools. Schools with more resources seem to be schools that are winning at a high rate. Somewhat similar to the Public v Private debate.
This post was edited on 5/12 8:43 PM by pmknicks

 

[cidhawkeye]

I think rich suburban schools should have their own class and tournaments....

 

[meandmyshadow]

Originally posted by ORSKY1:
Close the open enrollment for publics and then you may have an argument for private school multiplier. As long as there is open enrollment leave the system alone. You can't manage every problem that can arise for both private and public when enrollement for public is open.

"Close the open enrollment" can be countered with "force privates to have a boundary"...


P.S. Public schools do have a cap on the OE's they can take. If the ratio is not within the state limits for the school they have to stop OE. I know this as one of my co-workers just OE his kids to our school, met with the SI and was told that with all the folks moving into the School District they are having to stop OE so they have room for the estimated residents. They are trying to move into the district just hard finding a house now...
This post was edited on 5/13 9:48 AM by meandmyshadow