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Pleasant Valley Girls Track Title Stripped

Ive been reading all of these posts with interest and respect. You are in the minority because of what is happening with the idea of the value of winning at sport. Sports are a huge entertainment industry that pays great amounts at many levels and effects a lot of people outside of coaches and athletes. We are bombarded daily with media about how much our society values winning and despises losing. Thus the nature of our culture. With economic wealth and a high standard of living, we have a lot of extra time on our hands and put more value on things that don't really matter that much.

Someone asked me today how I continue to produce quality programs for nearly 3 decades and my bottom line answer is usually; the kids have to own it, not me and I have to get the parents to yeild to common sense. (In addition to a lot of good assistant coaches and willing kids). If we all work together and trust each other, we usually can stay out of each others way of consistent progress and a healthy experience at the high school level. Once the parents start seeking out extra opportunities for their kids, things start falling apart for everyone. They usually end up having to choose their path at that point. Water off a ducks back for me because I know the headaches we will all avoid and I've won enough to not make deals with the devil that have a negative impact on the rest of the team and the program as a whole.

All that being said, I do encourage our distance runners to follow a suggested summer and winter training program with built in recovery periods. Of course its voluntary. I have never put on a uniform and run a race for any of my athletes. More often than not, I have to regulate downtime vs. begging them to train in the offseason. They read a lot of stuff and typically think more is better and tend to forget about recovery time and risk overuse injury.

I have had little trouble explaining to parents and athletes why its a bad idea to seek out other coaches and more competition opportunities during the off-seasons but there will always be someone that wants that experience. Since I can't keep them from it, they usually find out I was right after the fact. Ive taken kids to national is meets and the Olympic Trials but they were few and far between. When that happens, the recovery and training cycles have to be adjusted appropriately or you can expect the following in season to be sketchy to flat and not very rewarding.

It is interesting to watch how our best athletes handle all of this additional post season racing but I would say that for the most part they have gotten what they wanted. I really don't have a problem with them competing up and then returning to hs competition but its always interesting to see how long their careers last and to what level they still improve once they reach physical prime. Mostly I think they just get a head start on the majority and just get tired when they should be at their best. But in a world of instant gratification, many misguided parents want that magic for their kid now. How many hours of study time were sacrificed for an activity that will be over before their professional lives really get started? Better off earning that academic scholarship first, walk-on and get better with age I think.

This post was edited on 7/31 4:47 PM by On Wings of Eagles
 
Bottom line is that she competed in a college sanctioned event against college athletes that were officially competing for their university, so comparisons to PTL or golfing the Iowa Amateur fall flat.

A "Last Chance" meet is intended to give college athletes one last chance to meet to standard for the national meet.
By competing in it, she's made the move to the collegiate level and waives high school eligibility, much like a kid who plays minor league BB trying to go back to compete for his school during the state tournament. You can't have it both ways.
 
Originally posted by VanderHoops:

Bottom line is that she competed in a college sanctioned event against college athletes that were officially competing for their university, so comparisons to PTL or golfing the Iowa Amateur fall flat.

A "Last Chance" meet is intended to give college athletes one last chance to meet to standard for the national meet.
By competing in it, she's made the move to the collegiate level and waives high school eligibility, much like a kid who plays minor league BB trying to go back to compete for his school during the state tournament. You can't have it both ways.
Not really. That's where the technicality comes into play. But is it really any different, on any meaningful level, to compete against Devyn Marble and Aaron White in the PTL or in a Big Ten game? No. And that's the point people are trying to make. Either it's okay to compete against college athletes, or it's not.

Bottom line, this shouldn't be an issue that the association/union has under their jurisdiction.
 
It sure is their business. No one said she couldn't do it, just that
she can't and then compete in our state meet. Wanna run with the big
dogs, go ahead, just don't come back to this kennel. It isn't a right
to be in hs sports. If you don't want to follow their rules, don't play
their game. I am not going to run for office, break fundraising laws
then say, "Well that is a stupid rule/law." When I play Yahtzee, I have
to have 63 points in the upper section to get the 35 pt bonus. 62
doesn't cut it. I know that going in, and if I didn't, I learned the
hard way. I coached a traveling 10U baseball team this summer. My son
was on it. I miscalculated the number of innings one of our pitchers threw at the state tournament. We lost our first 3 games and were
finally winning one, when I kept him in too long. I broke the rule, we
forfeited and I had to explain to ten 10 year olds that I screwed up.
My assistants told me that is a dumb rule. If you bat out of order, you
don't forfeit, what's the difference. I told them, we are setting a
bad example for the kids to slant it any other way. I screwed up.
Plain and simple. No one else's fault. Guess what, others - 10 year
old kids mind you - paid the price for my failure. Tough pill to
swallow, but that is the truth. No one died, no one was physically
hurt. Guess what? 2 hours later at the hotel, you would have never
known what happened if you sat pool side. The PV girls will survive.
If winning that title is the greatest thing they ever do, I don't want
that life!!! We will see how they react. Since they did as well as they did, I bet they are tough young ladies who will bounce back just fine.
 
The comment made about everything being so organized anymore really hits home with me and I couldn't agree more. I can't remember the last time I saw a bunch of little boys or even middle school or HIGH school boys playing a game of pick-up basketball in a driveway.....or playing baseball, kickball, tag, or ANYthing related at a ball diamond or park. You don't see kids doing that anymore because mom and dad is dragging them 2-5 hours away every weekend for tournaments and then have practices on top of THAT!! Some of the best times I ever had was getting together with 4 or 5 other guys in my class when I was growing and playing 3 on 3 in someone's driveway on a summer afternoon playing until we couldn't play anymore because we were gassed or because one of the mom's made us Kool Aid and cookies! Those were great times and I wish kids these days had those experiences. I am glad I grew up in those times. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

It is frustrating watching kids having to do multiple sports year round and watch them either burn out or more than likely sustain an overuse injury. I see it every single year for both boys and girls. Legs and knees giving out on girls because they are doing track, basketball, and softball at the same time. Boys' arms giving out halfway into the baseball season because they have been going to mandatory (OH, I mean OPTIONAL) out of season workouts for the last 9 months. Coaches thinking their sport is the only one that matters in the school. It truly is sickening.

People thinking the earlier you start tackling the better tacklers boys will be. So now we have boys in 2nd and 3rd grade putting the pads on?? I have coached football for 20 years and that was the biggest joke in the world. Starting kids earlier doesn't make them any better tacklers. When I was growing up we started tackle football in 7th grade.....sure didn't seem to hurt us at all. You were taught the proper way to tackle and then either you liked to pop someone or you didn't......It is as simple as that.

The parents are simply out of control.....that is the reason why this problem will never go away. It will only get worse as mentioned before. AAU coaches couldn't give a rip about a kid who is playing other sports. They encourage those kids to quit all sports except for the AAU team they are on. I am very afraid of what the next 10-15 years means for high school athletics.

We have transformed our kids to make them now believe that it is more important to play for the name on the back of the jersey instead of the name on the front. It is quite sad.
 
Originally posted by se xc1:
It sure is their business. No one said she couldn't do it, just that
she can't and then compete in our state meet. Wanna run with the big
dogs, go ahead, just don't come back to this kennel. It isn't a right
to be in hs sports. If you don't want to follow their rules, don't play
their game. I am not going to run for office, break fundraising laws
then say, "Well that is a stupid rule/law." When I play Yahtzee, I have
to have 63 points in the upper section to get the 35 pt bonus. 62
doesn't cut it. I know that going in, and if I didn't, I learned the
hard way. I coached a traveling 10U baseball team this summer. My son
was on it. I miscalculated the number of innings one of our pitchers threw at the state tournament. We lost our first 3 games and were
finally winning one, when I kept him in too long. I broke the rule, we
forfeited and I had to explain to ten 10 year olds that I screwed up.
My assistants told me that is a dumb rule. If you bat out of order, you
don't forfeit, what's the difference. I told them, we are setting a
bad example for the kids to slant it any other way. I screwed up.
Plain and simple. No one else's fault. Guess what, others - 10 year
old kids mind you - paid the price for my failure. Tough pill to
swallow, but that is the truth. No one died, no one was physically
hurt. Guess what? 2 hours later at the hotel, you would have never
known what happened if you sat pool side. The PV girls will survive.
If winning that title is the greatest thing they ever do, I don't want
that life!!! We will see how they react. Since they did as well as they did, I bet they are tough young ladies who will bounce back just fine.
You're missing my point. I agree with the punishment; she broke a rule and has to suffer the consequences for that. But I don't see why this is something that the association/union should have any control over. This type of situation seems more like something the NCAA would care about, not a high school athletic association. There's no way you can't punish Ciluffo for her actions, but I think that a hard look needs to be taken at this rule and getting rid of it or tweaking it should be seriously considered.
 
Originally posted by cc coach:
Originally posted by tm3308:

I think that a hard look needs to be taken at this rule and getting rid of it or tweaking it should be seriously considered.
For all sports? Or should they just change it for track and CC?
For all sports. In the vast majority of sports offered at the college level, there is no way a high school kid would be allowed to compete, anyway. The NCAA isn't about to let kids suit up on Saturdays in Kinnick. The only sports where I could really see something like this happening with any regularity would be track/cc, swimming, and maybe tennis and golf.

The NCAA can effectively regulate their own events, IMO. If they don't want high school kids competing in any of their sports under any circumstances, then let them ban it. If they're okay with it in certain sports, that's their prerogative. I don't think the high school governing bodies need to have anything to do with regulating something like this. Using college resources (trainers, coaches, etc.), sure. But if a college event allows for high school students to compete unattached, I don't think there should be anything wrong with an athlete taking advantage of that opportunity. And if a college event doesn't allow for that and a HS student uses an assumed name/what have you to compete anyway, that should still be the NCAA's/NAIA's/NJCAA's problem to deal with, not the IHSAA/IGHSAU's.
 
One potential problem I see with this is that colleges will begin to invite "select" individuals to their meets to use as a recruiting tool. They would probably not allow the average athlete to compete, even though they could, in some slower heats, if you look at some college meet results. Then, the advantages for the elite runners will skew the "playing field" in their favor even more. The last thing a high school coach wants to deal with is one of the athletes on their team being influenced by college coaches during the high school season. I have seen this situation happen a couple of times and it did not turn out well for the athlete.
I see no problem with an athlete being allowed into bigger or more elite high school meets in other states as long as everyone agrees. Maybe I am old school, but I believe high school sports belong in the high schools DURING their season, what happens outside of it is something totally different.
 
Originally posted by currentcoach:
One potential problem I see with this is that colleges will begin to invite "select" individuals to their meets to use as a recruiting tool. They would probably not allow the average athlete to compete, even though they could, in some slower heats, if you look at some college meet results. Then, the advantages for the elite runners will skew the "playing field" in their favor even more. The last thing a high school coach wants to deal with is one of the athletes on their team being influenced by college coaches during the high school season. I have seen this situation happen a couple of times and it did not turn out well for the athlete.
I see no problem with an athlete being allowed into bigger or more elite high school meets in other states as long as everyone agrees. Maybe I am old school, but I believe high school sports belong in the high schools DURING their season, what happens outside of it is something totally different.
During the season, I agree that athletes should stay put, although I don't necessarily agree that it should be mandated by the state. Your commitment should be to your high school team during the season, simply because that's the "right" way to do things; that's just my personal opinion of where an athlete's priorities should be during whatever season we're talking about, depending on the sport.

As for the recruiting angle, that's why I've thought all along that if something like this was going to be a violation, I would have thought it would be the NCAA's bylaws, not the state's. But if it's fine with the NCAA, I don't have an issue with kids taking advantage of those sorts of opportunities.
 
Originally posted by tm3308:


....... I don't have an issue with kids taking advantage of those sorts of opportunities.
But, this is the problem..... these are not "opportunities" to be "taken advantage of." For 99.9% of all young athletes, these are bad decisions that are far, far more likely to hinder them in their development than to help them in any meaningful way. Just a quick glance around is more than enough evidence that when it comes to children and athletics there are huge numbers of adults eager to make bad decisions on behalf of their children.... and it is getting worse.

The idea of the recruiting implications is substantial.... that would definitely be exploited. And, to think that it would be contained to sports like tennis, track, swimming..... I really doubt that. I see absolutely zero evidence that when it comes to athletics, money, institutions and adults in power - that there is any reason to suspect decisions will be made in the best interest of children and young adults. I could see HS wrestlers getting invited to something like "the Midlands" tournament for the "opportunity to take advantage of" the higher caliber competition..... It would only be a matter of time.

I agree that it would be nice if the NCAA would simply ban it themselves.... but, they are pretty much a "bad-decision machine" themselves. If having this rule in place is a deterrent to kids competing too much and beyond the level they are physically ready for - I don't see any problem with it. If a kid is truly 1 in a million....... and can't contain themselves to the dozens of opportunities they already have in place to compete against high level competitors.... and does not want to wait a couple months to do it... then give up your HS eligibility and move on to the next level if the current level is holding you back. Problem solved.

This is a very good article that I think hits at the heart of the matter:



This post was edited on 8/6 9:05 AM by cc coach

Stay Healthy by Playing Less
 
Also, it is not like we have a Kaylin Whitney in this state. None of the "elites" in the mid-distance and distance in this state went undefeated for the season, so the competition is there.
 
Originally posted by currentcoach:
Also, it is not like we have a Kaylin Whitney in this state. None of the "elites" in the mid-distance and distance in this state went undefeated for the season, so the competition is there.
I'd have to see who those girls are losing to. Because in 4A, when you've got Jenks and Ciluffo running some of the same events, they aren't going to go undefeated in every race. But both of them are likely going to be running at a D1 program, Jenks in particular. But if they're hungry to see even better competition and the NCAA allows them to compete in some events, then there is no reason that the state should force them to give up their HS eligibility.

The bottom line is that I don't think this is something that should be regulated by the state. You can argue that it's bad for the kids' development in the end, and maybe you're right, but that's not something the state should be in charge of, IMO.
 
Originally posted by oguard_run:

http://qctimes.com/sports/ high-school/track-and-field/ pleasant-valley-stripped-of- class-a-state-track-title/ article_e97cca18-e7e5-5e05- 89e5-c052f0762761.html--

I don't disagree with the state's decision on this and agree that there were rules that were broken, please read the article above from the quad city times more carefully before accusing her and her family of knowingly cheating.

In the article it discusses that her name is legally hyphenated and in the meet in which her mom's maiden name was used, the meet management chose to only use the first name and not the complete hyphenated name. Is also talks about the confusion that because she ran in the USA Junior national champions (a non collegiate sponsored event) against other college athletes, the family did not see an issue with her running in other meets without an issue. This was also something I questioned when I first saw the headline was how high school athletes could compete in junior championships.

Now go ahead an question whether or not the family is trying to play dumb by making these statements to the paper, I won't argue that is a possibility, but I was always taught not to judge until you've walked a mile in their shoes. Those are definitely shoes i have never walked in.
1. Other's names in the results remained hyphenated:
In the women's 1500m, Rodgers-Erickson, Kriste
In the men's 1500m, McDonald-Meteer, Dan
And at least in 2 other events. Plausible explanation from the parents, but not supported by other occurrences.

2. The family, who stated they entered their daughter's name, spelled her first name Kayle in all 3 meets. That is misspelled, it is actually Kaley. How does a family misspell a first name three times. First time, okay that can happen albeit unlikely, but get it fixed. Further, they had no problem spelling her name correctly when she ran in the high school races at Idaho State's Simplot Games in February.
 
Why are youth and high school sports so important to parents? Are participation numbers in Iowa high school sports up or down?
 
Up, better than ever, but that's not the issue here. The issue is personal gain over doing the right thing for "the team". Pervasive problem in society in general.
 
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