Pleasant Valley Girls Track Title Stripped

[Sporty101]

What in the world was this family thinking? I am speechless.

http://qctimes.com/sports/high-school/track-and-field/pleasant-valley-stripped-of-class-a-state-track-title/article_e97cca18-e7e5-5e05-89e5-c052f0762761.html?mode=comments

http://qctimes.com/sports/high-school/track-and-field/pleasant-valley-stripped-of-class-a-state-track-title/article_e97cca18-e7e5-5e05-89e5-c052f0762761.html?mode=comments

 

[ghost80]

If I'm a college coach I step away from this girl....she knowingly defied a rule and entered using her mother's maiden name. If I am a college coach I'd look at her and see a girl who both isn't afraid of violating the rules and even worse isn't afraid to try and cover up her violations. What other rules is she willing to break? She has already proven her propensity to cheat. Pulling stunts like that in college could result in NCAA sanctions and harm a whole program or even colleges reputation / marketability. Of course it is possible that a college coach could put her up to this to see how she would stack up against college competition.

If she is that talented that she could be competing in organized events against college athletes than that is good for her...but she shouldn't still be competing in high school events.

I feel bad for the PV team but support the official's decision to strip the title. Anything short of that would have been the wrong message for this situation. Unknowingly breaking a rule is one matter....attempting to cover up that violation is a whole different story.





This post was edited on 7/26 9:07 AM by ghost80

 

[ORSKY1]

I don't really understand why this would be an issue. I get it that a kid who knowingly breaks the rules could be a problem. I'm talking about the rule itself. What advantage does the competition she competed in provide her? We had a kid in Burlington play baseball for one game for his father's minor league baseball team against the local junior college. He didn't get paid, he just played on the team for one game under his fathers coaching. He was subsequently ruled ineligible for the season. They didn't realize this would be a violation, but why do we put the kids in this predicament? What advantage could there possibly be?

 

[ghost80]

Agreed Orsky. I don't fully understand the reasoning behind the rule but it is a rule and should be followed. If you don't agree with it then you have the right to question it and take proper actions to try to get it changed. You also have the right to not participate because you don't agree with the rules. High school track is not a requirement to high school. I refuse to participate or do business with a number of events or establishments because I don't agree with them.

I might sound like a drama queen but registering with her mothers maiden name really sticks in my craw. The messages her parents just sent her are numerous and all bad. It goes beyond winning at all cost including cheating and lying in an attempt to cover it up.

Using an alias is no small thing. I hope her parents don't yell at her if they get a call in the middle of the night because she is in jail for using a fake ID to try to get into a bar or getting arrested after breaking a rule and telling a LEO she is someone she isn't.

 

[Saints85]

Cmon people, you really don't see the advantage? "We're talking about practice man, how the hell am I supposed to make my teammates better at practice?." Remember AI making his statement? If she doesn't have anyone to push her at practice and make her better, she may go the route she did by competing against better people. This CERTAINLY give her an advantage and makes her better. Pretty cut and dry.

 

[cc coach]

High School athletics is just that - high school athletics. It has certain goals, rules, etc. I think the rule makes sense because if it was not there it is HIGHLY likely you would have misguided coaches and parents dragging kids all over the place, over racing (or overpitching, or overplaying whatever sport) etc.

In my opinion, the one thing that high school sports is NOT for is creating "elite" athletes. To me, that is simply a totally misguided goal. 99.9% of everyone who ever competes in high school will never compete on even a remotely "elite" level. High school athletics should be about participation, health, friendship, leadership, teamwork etc..... the kinds of things that WILL benefit 99.9% of everyone who participates. As such, the rules and governing of the administration of high school sports should really have little or no consideration of the .1 (or less) who are chasing elite dreams. The governing should look out for health and well being of the participants as a primary goal, as well as widespread participation across many activities.

With that in mind, limiting the number of contests, meets, games, contact time, etc. is absolutely a worthwhile idea. The rules in place are there because even though 99.9% of high school kids are never going to be remotely close to elite - a staggerin number of coaches, parents and kids have the misguided notion that they are. And, they push kids away from participation in multiple sports, they push kids to compete too often and the goal moves away from participation, health, well-being, friendship etc. It tends to move towards Adults living out their own athletic fantasies through children.

If someone has unique, elite-level goals...... there are a vast array of opportunities to pursue those goals - either within the context of HS sports, outside the context of participating in HS sports, or after HS sports are over. But, I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with HS sports having those rules in place. If those rules were removed - and it became "everyone participate in everything you want, anywhere you want"....... I think it is safe to predict that parents, coaches, personal trainers, and AAU/Junior Olympic/Club coaches would drag kids all over creation - to the detriment of the young athletes.

Just my opinion on it.

This post was edited on 7/26 11:20 AM by cc coach

 

[ORSKY1]

CC that is just silly. What do you think AAU is doing? Softball kids are playing 100 games in the offseason. Same for basketball. Elite teams play ball for their school and for their clubs all over the nation. The PV volleyball club just played in a national tournament and I believe got second. Why don't you complain about all of these advantages kids get by playing these extra games, being dragged by their parents all over the Midwest every season. Football passing leagues also give an advantage to the schools that participate over the schools who can't or don't. Why shouldn't a high school girl be allowed to compete against college athletes or pro athletes for that matter? They don't loose their eligibility in golf.

The only issue here is that the girl broke the rule and knew it. For that, I understand the discipline. My question is still, why is there a rule against this type of participation? It doesn't create any more of an advantage than any of the competitions I listed above.

 

[cc coach]

I agree that all of those things are also going on..... (I, personally, think it is crazy.... but that is another argument). But, I don't believe those softball kids are going to texas to play in tournaments against college teams over spring break. And, I don't think those volleyball teams are playing against college competition. I honestly don't know.... but are they able to play on those teams during the seasons they are in?? Other than softball/baseball I don't think so... not sure about those other two, honestly.

A track and cross country athlete can run races every single week of the year and be 100%, perfectly legal........ There are ways to do it, if that is the goal. A track/CC athlete has the exact same opportunity to over-compete as every other HS athlete has.

You ask "why don't I complain about all the advantages" these schools and teams are getting........ I am not "complaining" about any of it. I certainly do not think it is an "advantage"..... If anything, I think it is a disadvantage to a lot of kids. I think it is hard on kids. I think it is misplaced priorities. I love HS sports. I love coaching. But, I want the kids I coach to be able to do other things. I don't want them to have running be their #1 priority. I tell the kids I coach - "If running is the most important thing in your life, you are doing it wrong." It should be a "piece" of who you are - it should not define you. My personal opinion is - if a 14-15-16-17 year old kid is playing 100's of games and tournaments (races) a year......... I don't know, I just don't see the point. There may be some miniscule % of individuals who have the talent, ability and desire to do that..... but we are talking absolutely tiny numbers. For the vast majority, it is not likely in their best interest. And, there is all kinds of time for that when they are more mature, and adults and choose it for themselves.

Again - I (personally) don't think it has anything at all to do with "advantage." My personal opinion is that it is detrimental to young children (other than the 1 in a 10,000 athlete) to be doing this. You make rules for the 9,999 - not the 1.

 

[bumblebee]

Club volleyball, softball, girls soccer is practically professional--a family needs around $10,000/yr to subsidize their kid. Kind of an advantage over the less affluent, don't ya think?

In Kansas City, I know a family that spent around $20,000 in one year for their daughter's soccer club membership and travel. It's huge down there

So what if she competed against college-aged girls? who the hell cares?

here's a farce: Iowa City west soccer teams littered with foreign exchange students who's parents are here on a work visa, and the kid is eligible IMMEDIATELY to play soccer, and subsequently Iowa City West wins multiple state titles. Is that fair?

While the parents who have been paying property and income taxes for years, are penalized if their kid transfers.

half-ass backwards....It'd better to be here on a visa or here illegally ...LMAO

 

[long-may-u-run]

Why are high school athletes allowed to participate in basketball in the prime time league against college athletes yet a runner is disciplined for competing against college athletes in track.. Yes, I know the PTL is a private affair and not affiliated with the NCAA but in reality, what is the difference? I have mixed feelings on this but there seems to be an abundance of hypocrisy, as usual coming from the state.

 

[Saints85]

Not really, because the runners can run in non-ncaa events such as 5k or 10k races against college kids, so there is their free opportunity like other sports. She broke the rule, sounds like knowingly, now they pay the price.

 

[oguard_run]

http://qctimes.com/sports/ high-school/track-and-field/ pleasant-valley-stripped-of- class-a-state-track-title/ article_e97cca18-e7e5-5e05- 89e5-c052f0762761.html--

I don't disagree with the state's decision on this and agree that there were rules that were broken, please read the article above from the quad city times more carefully before accusing her and her family of knowingly cheating.

In the article it discusses that her name is legally hyphenated and in the meet in which her mom's maiden name was used, the meet management chose to only use the first name and not the complete hyphenated name. Is also talks about the confusion that because she ran in the USA Junior national champions (a non collegiate sponsored event) against other college athletes, the family did not see an issue with her running in other meets without an issue. This was also something I questioned when I first saw the headline was how high school athletes could compete in junior championships.

Now go ahead an question whether or not the family is trying to play dumb by making these statements to the paper, I won't argue that is a possibility, but I was always taught not to judge until you've walked a mile in their shoes. Those are definitely shoes i have never walked in.

 

[On Wings of Eagles]

Bumblebee,
In the words of Anton Chigurh; You don't know what you are talking about". IC West soccer has nothing to do with this topic. Not to mention you don't have one shred of proof of your accusations. You might want to consider visiting the transfer rule issue rather than trying to tie the competing against college athletes and lying about it problem of this particular thread.

This post was edited on 7/27 11:08 PM by On Wings of Eagles

 

[Saints85]

Good point about walking in their shoes. Were you also taught, "if you don't know, or aren't sure, then ask?" All they would have needed to do was email or call the ighsau to get a clarification BEFORE they did anything.

 

[se xc1]

I agree with Saints. I have had many questions over the years about things. I email the boys association and they are very good at getting me a response, either that day, or the next. When our college runners come home and want to come run with our team, I tell them they can come say hello and hang out, but cannot run. I also tell our runners NOT to run with these kids during the summer. I have no idea of the communication at PV, but we go over the rules every so often to make sure our kids know what they can and cannot do.

 

[oguard_run]

Won't dispute that either. Still going to say, I don't know all the circumstances in this case including how often their coaches go over the rules. I know in my 35 years of life on this earth, there have been countless times I have checked on rules and information and due to miscommunication or misunderstanding, I have still screwed up. Fortunately, none of my mistakes have put me on the front page of every paper in the state.

My wife and I came up with at least a dozen scenarios where we've seen high school athletes compete against college kids in various running activities after reading the initial story in the Register. After reading the QC times it made sense that none of those events are college sponsored. We both felt its common place enough we can see the reason you wouldn't necessarily think to ask if you had done it many times before.

All I know is that I pray that they did not purposely break the rules. If they did, then I have no pity on them. If they truly did not understand the rules, then I can't image the horrible grief this girl is experiencing right now. It's a hard lesson to learn that doesn't need a whole lot of grown-ups speculating all the circumstances and then accusing her of purposely cheating.

 

[bumblebee]

Originally posted by On Wings of Eagles:
Bumblebee, In the words of Anton Chigurh; You don't know what you are talking about". IC West soccer has nothing to do with this topic. Not to mention you don't have one shred of proof of your accusations. You might want to consider visiting the transfer rule issue rather than trying to tie the competing against college athletes and lying about it problem of this particular thread.


This post was edited on 7/27 11:08 PM by On Wings of Eagles

So if your professor parents arrive in Iowa City from Europe, or Asia, or Africa--on a work visa to teach at the U of Iowa for 1 year, is their soccer-playing child immediately eligible to play soccer in this state at a public school?

oh, and Iowa City West wrestling has recruited for years

This post was edited on 7/28 9:43 PM by bumblebee

 

[On Wings of Eagles]

Again, you are in the wrong thread. Please look into the transfer rule before asking your questions/making accusations in the middle of a thread regarding illegal competition. There are many other transfer threads for all sports on this site. Take a minute to check them out and I think you will be satisfied. Best wishes.

 

[ghost80]

Oguard,

I've read the article you linked several times and cannot find where it says "legally hyphenated". I did find where the principal said that this individual's name on school file includes a hyphen and their mothers maiden name.

Here is what I find odd about the principal's statement. If you look at the school website this person's name does not include the hyphen and maiden name in any of the track results. I didn't dig in every nook and cranny on this site but the hyphenated name appears nowhere that I looked on the the schools site. It also does not in Quick Stats for either of the last 2 years. (What I did find in quick stats is another athlete in 4A with a hyphenated name longer than the person's in question, so space apparently isn't an issue). It seems odd that school could make these mistakes regarding her name over several years and no one cares to correct it.

Drake Relays and State Meet results....neither have the hyphenated maiden name although others with longer names do. This is also very puzzling. Really the only place I could find the hyphenated name (actually just the other half than everyone else uses) was in the out of state meet they participated in during the 2014 track season.

I have no problems with the rule but as others have pointed out it seems to be selectively applied and not consistent across sports or even within a particular sport. I previously said that IMO athletes should compete at the level where their abilities belong. This athlete in question is very gifted and able to be competative with the college athletes in those events they participated in.....maybe the IGHSAU has it right in their efforts to now disallow her participation in high school sports.

 

[tm3308]

Originally posted by ghost80:
Oguard,

I've read the article you linked several times and cannot find where it says "legally hyphenated". I did find where the principal said that this individual's name on school file includes a hyphen and their mothers maiden name.

Here is what I find odd about the principal's statement. If you look at the school website this person's name does not include the hyphen and maiden name in any of the track results. I didn't dig in every nook and cranny on this site but the hyphenated name appears nowhere that I looked on the the schools site. It also does not in Quick Stats for either of the last 2 years. (What I did find in quick stats is another athlete in 4A with a hyphenated name longer than the person's in question, so space apparently isn't an issue). It seems odd that school could make these mistakes regarding her name over several years and no one cares to correct it.

Drake Relays and State Meet results....neither have the hyphenated maiden name although others with longer names do. This is also very puzzling. Really the only place I could find the hyphenated name (actually just the other half than everyone else uses) was in the out of state meet they participated in during the 2014 track season.

I have no problems with the rule but as others have pointed out it seems to be selectively applied and not consistent across sports or even within a particular sport. I previously said that IMO athletes should compete at the level where their abilities belong. This athlete in question is very gifted and able to be competative with the college athletes in those events they participated in.....maybe the IGHSAU has it right in their efforts to now disallow her participation in high school sports.

It could be as simple as the girl doesn't go by her full legal name. There are plenty of coaches/schools that won't put the full name into a roster if that's not what the athlete prefers. As for the state meet or Drake, they're just going off what the coaches give them. They aren't checking birth certificates for the full legal name of every athlete.

This post was edited on 7/29 9:43 AM by tm3308

 

[long-may-u-run]

Originally posted by Saints85:
Not really, because the runners can run in non-ncaa events such as 5k or 10k races against college kids, so there is their free opportunity like other sports. She broke the rule, sounds like knowingly, now they pay the price.

So what you are saying is it is perfectly fine if the event is "non NCAA sponsored"? Some local puts together an all comers track meet and then the high schoolers can compete against college athletes? Or as you said, road races? So you are fine with high school basketball players competing in the PTL against college players? High school basketball players can compete directly with college athletes in a very visible and media covered PTL league and the state says that is perfectly fine. The PTL is not a pick up game atmosphere like a road race is. And it is not even a remotely close comparison. You are either allowed to compete against college athletes or not.

 

[SSG T]

Originally posted by tm3308:

Originally posted by ghost80:
Oguard,

I've read the article you linked several times and cannot find where it says "legally hyphenated". I did find where the principal said that this individual's name on school file includes a hyphen and their mothers maiden name.

Here is what I find odd about the principal's statement. If you look at the school website this person's name does not include the hyphen and maiden name in any of the track results. I didn't dig in every nook and cranny on this site but the hyphenated name appears nowhere that I looked on the the schools site. It also does not in Quick Stats for either of the last 2 years. (What I did find in quick stats is another athlete in 4A with a hyphenated name longer than the person's in question, so space apparently isn't an issue). It seems odd that school could make these mistakes regarding her name over several years and no one cares to correct it.

Drake Relays and State Meet results....neither have the hyphenated maiden name although others with longer names do. This is also very puzzling. Really the only place I could find the hyphenated name (actually just the other half than everyone else uses) was in the out of state meet they participated in during the 2014 track season.

I have no problems with the rule but as others have pointed out it seems to be selectively applied and not consistent across sports or even within a particular sport. I previously said that IMO athletes should compete at the level where their abilities belong. This athlete in question is very gifted and able to be competative with the college athletes in those events they participated in.....maybe the IGHSAU has it right in their efforts to now disallow her participation in high school sports.

It could be as simple as the girl doesn't go by her full legal name. There are plenty of coaches/schools that won't put the full name into a roster if that's not what the athlete prefers. As for the state meet or Drake, they're just going off what the coaches give them. They aren't checking birth certificates for the full legal name of every athlete.

This post was edited on 7/29 9:43 AM by tm3308

The same thing applies to many hispanic names. Many times you see them shortened on a roster, State site, school info, etc, even though they may use the longer, combined name for official use. And which of the two is used, or how they are ordered, is dependent on the country of origin.

I actually see this happen a lot in the Army. Their name tape may only have one part of their last name, say Rodriguez. But if you look them up on an official government site or in the global email phone book, they won't show up as Rodriguez. It would be something like Cintronrodriguez or Rodriguezcintron, or hyphenated, or separate based on maternal/paternal naming conventions for their particular national heritage, as many are different. Different cases, but similar in how/why they are shortened for everyday use.

 

[tm3308]

Originally posted by long-may-u-run:

Originally posted by Saints85:
Not really, because the runners can run in non-ncaa events such as 5k or 10k races against college kids, so there is their free opportunity like other sports. She broke the rule, sounds like knowingly, now they pay the price.

So what you are saying is it is perfectly fine if the event is "non NCAA sponsored"? Some local puts together an all comers track meet and then the high schoolers can compete against college athletes? Or as you said, road races? So you are fine with high school basketball players competing in the PTL against college players? High school basketball players can compete directly with college athletes in a very visible and media covered PTL league and the state says that is perfectly fine. The PTL is not a pick up game atmosphere like a road race is. And it is not even a remotely close comparison. You are either allowed to compete against college athletes or not.

This is a very good point, IMO. Are any high schoolers competing in PTL this year besides Drew Cook? I saw several college-freshmen-to-be playing (Lohaus, Haber, Baer), but didn't notice any other kids who will be in high school next year.

 

[Saints85]

I didn't say I like the rule, just that it is a rule. I pointed out that there are opportunities to legally run against college runners. I didn't say it was the same as the PTL, just that the opportunity is there. Geesh.

 

[Sporty101]

In the summertime this girl can do what she pleases......go run against Sandra Richards Ross in a 400 or whatever she wants to do. The fact is this girl and these parents were told the rules and chose to break them anyway.....That is a fact. She ran in meets DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR and DURING TRACK SEASON against college competition. That is a blatant rule violation. I believe it is a good rule to have.

All of this AAU softball, basketball, and volleyball has gotten waaaay out of control. 95% of AAU coaches couldn't give a rip about a teenagers well being. It is a business and they are making money and getting kickbacks from universities. Don't even try telling me that kids doing ANYTHING 100% full out year round is a good idea. Girls going to their HS team's 2 hour basketball practice and then driving to Ames to practice 2 more hours. Is that really in the best interest of that young lady? AAU is absolutely killing high school sports as we used to know it trying to tell kids they need to specialize.......then 15 year old "Sara" blows her knee out out playing basketball and we can't understand why. The knee injuries are staggering, People. Overuse injury has become the #1 reason HS athletes get hurt anymore. More is NOT better..........being well-rounded and taking time off from things is.

........but back to this topic. In the bigger picture, what did these parents teach their daughter. That rules only apply to others?

 

[ORSKY1]

And back to the bigger question, why is there even a rule of this kind. It obviously doesn't prevent intermingling of athletes outside of the season. Somebody said it was an unfair advantage. Well you know life isn't fair, and when people try to make everything fair and equal big messes generally occur.

 

[Saints85]

Orsky is spot on, but let's not just stop here, let's not have any rules. Why can't 20 year olds compete? I mean heck, if a 24 year old, mature, athlete in his prime, wants to still take hs classes, let em. Do away with the class system as well. If Scattered Good Friends and Diagonal can't beat Valley or DM East, too bad. Life isn't fair and we shouldn't try and make it that way. Now, if you really don't want an attempt to be fair, let's also get rid of the 13th, 14th, 15th, & 19th amendments they're just messing things up.

 

[ghost80]

Sporty,

You are correct about the athletics of high school age kids getting way out of control for many. To repeat myself, kids should participate in the level where they belong. If a kid through hard work, natural ability, having parents with the means to support a non school involvement, and ect can compete at a higher level than that is where they belong...not having to jump past high school events to get the competition they need to push them but then falling back to high school events to showcase themselves and collect a lot of bling showing everyone how much better they are then the high school athletes.

It would be like a kid participating in JV sports and absolutely dominating so the coach moves them up to varsity where they are no longer the "top dog" dominating but still competative and ready for varsity. Is the coach going to allow them to play JV just because they miss being the big fish in that much smaller pond? No. They moved up to the big pool and unless they start to drown he won't move them back to the kiddie pool.

IMO when kids "play down" to participate in high school sports just to showcase themselves and show how much better they are than the high school kids that hurts participation by the high school kids who really should be participating there. If the kids who have put forth a reasonable amount of effort both in season and off have to compete with the out of control super athletes (and their parents) those kids tend to lose interest and move on to something else.

 

[Saints85]

Not sure I agree with Ghost, but Aaron Pico could be a great example of what Ghost is speaking about. If you don't know about Aaron Pico, google him and check out what that young man is doing.

 

[tm3308]

Originally posted by ghost80:
Sporty,

You are correct about the athletics of high school age kids getting way out of control for many. To repeat myself, kids should participate in the level where they belong. If a kid through hard work, natural ability, having parents with the means to support a non school involvement, and ect can compete at a higher level than that is where they belong...not having to jump past high school events to get the competition they need to push them but then falling back to high school events to showcase themselves and collect a lot of bling showing everyone how much better they are then the high school athletes.

It would be like a kid participating in JV sports and absolutely dominating so the coach moves them up to varsity where they are no longer the "top dog" dominating but still competative and ready for varsity. Is the coach going to allow them to play JV just because they miss being the big fish in that much smaller pond? No. They moved up to the big pool and unless they start to drown he won't move them back to the kiddie pool.

IMO when kids "play down" to participate in high school sports just to showcase themselves and show how much better they are than the high school kids that hurts participation by the high school kids who really should be participating there. If the kids who have put forth a reasonable amount of effort both in season and off have to compete with the out of control super athletes (and their parents) those kids tend to lose interest and move on to something else.

Yeah, guys like Harrison Barnes, Marcus Paige, etc. shouldn't bother playing high school basketball. They're out dominating the nation's best on the AAU circuit and then playing down at the varsity level.

This reeks of the same sort of whining that we always hear about private schools. This girl is better than the rest of her peers in the state. So what if she's basically showcasing herself at the varsity level? That's basically saying she's too good to be running in high school, which is total bull. Stop whining and get better, if you don't like it. She shouldn't be penalized for being better than everyone else.

 

[Saints85]

My 8th grader had all A's. Can he just skip hs and go to college?????

 

[cc coach]

I think part of the problem is this: There was a time where "HS sports" were just normal, extra curricular "activities." There were some basic, reasonable rules in place to keep them that way........ fast forward over the course of the last 10-15 years.......... and youth sports have basically gotten idiotic. As pointed out, numerous times in this thread, all kinds of kids are playing on many different teams, at every level, all the time, year round from the time they are in 3rd grade.

You cannot "control" people's lives (nor should you) - If someone wants to play 1 million AAU/Junior Olympic games a year, on their own time - that is their choice. You can't make rules against that. Basically, the current rule (HS children cannot compete in college sactioned events and maintain their HS eligibility) is from a time where that was the only rule that was needed, or even potentially necessary. In this day and age, you would need 1000 rules to cover every possible competitive situation that exists today.

So.... is it an unreasonable rule. Not really. When you take a "reasonable" rule that was put in place decades ago, and look at it in the context of today - it seems unreasonable. Does it seem like it is sort of out of context with everything else that goes on now? Sure. So, I think it is basically to the point of - "well, should we maintain this completely reasonable rule (even though it does not cover dozens of other situations), or just say "F" it - it is all so screwed up, let's just not have any rules at all."

The rule is antiquated...... but, does that mean you just give up every single rule that exists because everything has gotten so insane? Maybe it does. I don't know.

I can tell you that I am blown away by how obsessed our society is with making sure that the "play time" of our children is as regimented as possible. There are individuals of profound talent, who may even possess the emotional and personal traits that allow them to benefit from this hyper-competitive atmosphere....... but for 99.9% of children, it is just such an utter waste of time, money and opportunity.

Volleyball girls have to play basketball during volleyball season. Basketball girls have to play volleyball during basketball season..... and, they have to start pitching for softball as well. Track - forget it......... track girls have to play basketball and volleyball and start going to softball practice....oh, and run track too - well, at least until they get injured. It is so, completely, pointless and counterproductive.

It is a staggeringly small percentage of kids who will ever benefit from that environment - and yet, it is sold to ALL of them as "what it takes" to "be the best." I think it is all sad.



This post was edited on 7/30 9:49 PM by cc coach

This post was edited on 7/30 9:50 PM by cc coach

 

[ghost80]

CC get's it.

10- 15 years ago it wasn't as it is now. HS sports were enjoyed by a lot more kids because a lot more of the kids were playing closer within the same level of capability. In some sports you could see 1A and small 2A teams with participation rates that would rival today's 3A schools. Why? Because the kids would be more likely to go out AND STAY in athletics if they had a chance to compete without having to commit to athletics becoming their life (which seems to be the case today). Yes, you still needed to work hard and that included the off season but nothing like what kids need to do today to be able to compete at the high school level. If you don't believe me think about this. How long has 8 man football been around? Used to be few schools had trouble fielding an 11 man team and even with fewer two ways than we see today. 8 man teams didn't exist BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T NEEDED!

High school athletics have an important role but that role has become distorted in the past decade. It's interesting that recently studies were done to try and find out why the US education system is lagging behind many other countries in the world. An official from India (who is spanking our education system in multiple areas right now) attributed it largely to 2 different things. One of the 2 things was the over emphasis on sports over education on our kids. Being stronger or able to outrun a kid from India will not help you compete for a job against him in today's increasing Global market.

Perhaps it might even be that if we created an atmosphere in our high school athletics where more kids felt they had a chance to compete then we might see a decline in the ever increasing obesity rate. If a "dumb" rule prohibiting kids from participating in college AND high school sports helps to weed out some the student athletes (and their parents) that are pushing other kids away from sports.. then I'm all for it.





This post was edited on 7/31 12:00 AM by ghost80

 

[tm3308]

I won't disagree that all the youth/AAU/etc. circuits have exploded over the last couple decades and that it's not necessarily a good thing, but the idea of keeping a rule like this -- which prevents some kids from reaching their full potential -- in the name of competitive balance is absurd. When the other kids you're worried about get into the real world, the playing field isn't going to be leveled like that. The "everybody gets a ribbon" mentality, IMO, is the kind of mindset that shouldn't be embraced at the varsity level. If your kids aren't into sports, that's perfectly fine. Competitiveness translates pretty well to a lot of things besides sports, and that competitive edge is something that I think gets lost at times in our society.

Kids can still have fun, and at the youth level, that's more what it should be about. But at the high school level, learning that not everybody gets a reward just for trying, and that you have to put in the work if you want to be the best (and I don't mean that you have to play AAU; I spent countless hours hitting off a tee after school, working on my defensive footwork, etc. and it paid off for me in the end), is a pretty important lesson to learn.

 

[ghost80]

TM,

Too often it is at the youth level where things go askew. Parents coaching who shouldn't be. I've seen too often where the youth level becomes too focused on winning and not development so the parent/coach decides at an early age which kids are going to be athletes later down the road and which ones won't. Too often the instruction and play time goes to the ones the coach chooses worthy instead of trying to develop everyone possible at that early age.

The kids not chosen are at a huge disadvantage by the time the school even sees them for a sport. The kid often tries middle school athletics thinking those coaches will help "catch them up" to the others but rarely does that happen. Lots of kids see the writing on the wall what is ahead and hang up athletics right there.

 

[cc coach]

Originally posted by tm3308:
...... but the idea of keeping a rule like this -- which prevents some kids from reaching their full potential -- in the name of competitive balance is absurd.......

I agree that keeping the rule in the "name of competitive balance" is probably absurd. But, I think that is the least important aspect of the rule. I honestly don't even think it is an advantage - not to most kids. The kids it could be an advantage for (ciluffo, jenks, other rare athletes) don't need an "advantage" - they are just a hell of a lot better than everyone else.

To me, it has nothing to do with the individual, elite, athlete. It has to do with all the average to above average (but still "normal") kids. There is more to that rule than competitive advantage. How about safety? How about liability?

If it is ok for HS kids to compete in college sactioned events........ is that in all sports? Sure, maybe track or CC are not a huge deal - but what about basketball, or wrestling..... or football? If they can compete - well, why can't they participate in college practices...... I mean if they compete against college kids, it would be "stupid" to say they can't practice - wouldn't it? And, if HS kids can compete in college sanctioned events...... it only makes sense that college athletes/teams could compete in HS sanctioned events - right? Why not invite some D3 teams to some local HS invitational? Maybe a couple preseason games against college level competition to "challenge" your team. And, be sure to bring college kids back into the HS setting for practices - If it allows people to achieve at a "higher level" - it must be good.

These things have some actual safety concerns - physical and otherwise - when you start mixing ADULTS with CHILDREN.....

Some of it may seem like extreme examples. But, I think if one thing is fairly certain it is this: NEVER underestimate the ability of adults to make insane decisions in regard to the games of children on the basis of "achieving their full potential."

Also - "full potential" for almost every single person participating in HS sports is: "Never compete again after HS."
Everyone is aware of that, correct? It is a race to nowhere for all but a select few - who won the genetic lottery at birth.

 

[bdrube]

I agree with about 99% of what CC Coach (seems the older I get, the more I agree with you) has said. The point, at least to me, that most people are missing is that it is not a rule in place to hold back a once in a generation talent. And also, that a rule was still broken. There were plenty of other national high school meets she could have ran in (maybe she tried to gain entry and couldn't, I don't know.) I'm assuming a girl of her caliber would have been able to though.

When I was in hs in the late 90s/early 2000s I thought it was incredibly stupid that I couldn't wear a headband or gloves unless the starter/official deemed it necessary. I believe this rule has changed, which is great. But, even though I thought it was beyond stupid, I followed it because it was the rule. She broke the rule (it seems a bit calculated to me, but I could be off) so the punishment is fair. It's mind boggling how many adults seem to think it's unfair that she (and her team) got punished. Or that it's ok that she broke a rule, no matter how antiquated, because she or her parents felt above the rule. Again, that's under the premise that they knew of the rule.

High school track athletes, especially ones of her caliber, already race entirely too much. Or at the very least have the potential to. Opening up the majority of these athletes to college meets running from December through May is probably not in the best interest of 99.9% of them.

 

[cc coach]

Originally posted by bdrube:

I agree with about 99% of what CC Coach (seems the older I get, the more I agree with you) has said.

Uh-oh..... you MUST be getting old

 

[tm3308]

Originally posted by cc coach:

Originally posted by tm3308:
...... but the idea of keeping a rule like this -- which prevents some kids from reaching their full potential -- in the name of competitive balance is absurd.......

I agree that keeping the rule in the "name of competitive balance" is probably absurd. But, I think that is the least important aspect of the rule. I honestly don't even think it is an advantage - not to most kids. The kids it could be an advantage for (ciluffo, jenks, other rare athletes) don't need an "advantage" - they are just a hell of a lot better than everyone else.

To me, it has nothing to do with the individual, elite, athlete. It has to do with all the average to above average (but still "normal") kids. There is more to that rule than competitive advantage. How about safety? How about liability?

If it is ok for HS kids to compete in college sactioned events........ is that in all sports? Sure, maybe track or CC are not a huge deal - but what about basketball, or wrestling..... or football? If they can compete - well, why can't they participate in college practices...... I mean if they compete against college kids, it would be "stupid" to say they can't practice - wouldn't it? And, if HS kids can compete in college sanctioned events...... it only makes sense that college athletes/teams could compete in HS sanctioned events - right? Why not invite some D3 teams to some local HS invitational? Maybe a couple preseason games against college level competition to "challenge" your team. And, be sure to bring college kids back into the HS setting for practices - If it allows people to achieve at a "higher level" - it must be good.

These things have some actual safety concerns - physical and otherwise - when you start mixing ADULTS with CHILDREN.....

Some of it may seem like extreme examples. But, I think if one thing is fairly certain it is this: NEVER underestimate the ability of adults to make insane decisions in regard to the games of children on the basis of "achieving their full potential."

Also - "full potential" for almost every single person participating in HS sports is: "Never compete again after HS."
Everyone is aware of that, correct? It is a race to nowhere for all but a select few - who won the genetic lottery at birth.

Not that a lot of what you say isn't true, but I don't see how it's the IHSAA/IGHSAU's problem. There's no liability on their end, nor is there any on the schools in cases like this, and . Maybe it's not entirely safe for the athlete, but that's none of the state's business, IMO. They shouldn't be in the business of regulating the personal lives of the kids they govern. And high schools aren't going to bring in D3 teams to practice against, because then they ARE taking on liability that schools aren't going to want any part of. In my opinion, this is the NCAA's problem, not the IHSAA/IGHSAU's.

As for your theory that if HS kids can compete against college kids, then college kids should be able to compete in HS events, that's just ridiculous. Let's just say, hypothetically, that we had a kid who was good enough to compete in the Olympics as a teenager. Would that mean it should be okay to let Usain Bolt compete in the state track meet? Of course not.

 

[cc coach]

Originally posted by tm3308:

...... And high schools aren't going to bring in D3 teams to practice against, because then they ARE taking on liability that schools aren't going to want any part of.

As for your theory that if HS kids can compete against college kids, then college kids should be able to compete in HS events, that's just ridiculous.

College athletes scrimaging/wrestling/practicing against HS kids over christmas, summer and other breaks is WAY more common than people think. So, the idea that HS's would not let College kids into practices is not far-fetched at all - it already happens (against the rules).

I agree - It is ridiculous that college kids would compete against HS kids...... It is also ridiculous to think that there would be organized teams of 3rd-4th-5th graders traveling around the state and country, playing dozens and dozens of games against other teams that travel all over the place, and parents/coaches spending tons of time and money to facilitate it all. It is ridiculous to think that 2nd-3rd-4th graders would play/practice organized, TACKLE football. Ridiculous things never happen - especially in sports/youth sports.

Ultimately, I think that is my main point - sports have gotten ridiculous. It is idiotic the emphasis and value that are placed on them in this country and in our schools (and outside our schools). Perhaps everything is now so ridiculous that the only thing left to do is give up on reigning it in all-together. I do think it is a losing battle. So, the real question is whether or not it is worth fighting a battle you know is going to be lost. One thing I am pretty confident in is that Youth/HS/College sports are going to continue to get far crazier in the next 15 years. It won't be going back to "the good old days." I will probably coach another 10-15 years. I will fight the losing battle for as long as I coach. With a little luck, I hope to convince all of my future athletes that participating in sports is for fun. That you do your best, you work together, you get healthier and you enjoy yourself - and above all, sports should never make the "top 3-5 most important things in your life" list.

The funny thing is that attitude toward sports probably results in the same (or greater) level of "success" when it is all said and done anyway.

This post was edited on 7/31 10:38 AM by cc coach