This wouldn't have an effect on football, but it would for all other sports. Interesting read.
Times-Republican 4A Conference Link
Times-Republican 4A Conference Link
New 4A Conference?...
- Thread starter screwloose
- Start date
Sounds like an interesting idea. With the current CIML spread from Mason City to Ottumwa ... and with, what, 19 members? ... it could be a good move for these eight to break away.
I think it's also definitely a consideration that it breaks the Des Moines public schools away from the wealthier suburban schools. Valley, Dowling, Waukee, the Ankenys, Urbandale, Johnston, Southeast Polk ... you know the DM public schools would be happy with any kind of conference separate from those.
I think it's also definitely a consideration that it breaks the Des Moines public schools away from the wealthier suburban schools. Valley, Dowling, Waukee, the Ankenys, Urbandale, Johnston, Southeast Polk ... you know the DM public schools would be happy with any kind of conference separate from those.
Would that not be a disaster for MC/FD come playoff time? Hard to disagree with the travel though.
As far as football is concerned, it wouldn't have any bearing whatsoever, as everything is district set-up anyhow. And even if Mason City and Fort Dodge were to consider this and ask for these same schools as their non-district in football, it still wouldn't matter. Non-district games have no meaning towards qualifying.
Now, as far as seeding goes for all other sports, it could have a greater impact there, but I don't think they'd be overly concerned about it if that was the route they decided to go in the first place.
In regards to this possible new conference, I could see a possibility of Newton joining, if asked, and also Oskaloosa as well. Geographically and numbers-wise it would make sense, especially for Newton.
This post was edited on 6/27 12:38 AM by screwloose
Does anyone really think H-D, IF-A, C-G, and SE would want those two giants in the NCC? Sure, Algona, Humboldt, WC and CL, may not be opposed, but I can't see those others going along with that. And as stated before, is that really going to prepare FDSH and MC for post-season. Sure, they may mop up on conference titles, but this idea isn't good for anyone - other than the transportation directors.
I agree with Saints85...
I think we'll see more of this over the next decade. As these big suburb schools with big sports budgets continue to grow, you see others trying to get out of their way.Either they form a new conference as a group like this proposal, or they seek refuge with big 3A schools.
I'm not sure about Oskaloosa / Newton idea...The Little Hawkeye has DCG, Pella, Norwalk, Osky, Newton who are all very close in size. Knoxville is leaving, which leaves Grinnell and Pella Christian as the remaing "smaller" schools. Perhaps something new will be formed at some point with the 5 bigger LHC schools, and schools like Indianola, Ottumwa, Marshalltown? It would be a big 3A, small 4A conference. To my knowledge, nothing lke that has ever been discussed, I'm just throwing ideas out.
I think we'll see more of this over the next decade. As these big suburb schools with big sports budgets continue to grow, you see others trying to get out of their way.Either they form a new conference as a group like this proposal, or they seek refuge with big 3A schools.
I'm not sure about Oskaloosa / Newton idea...The Little Hawkeye has DCG, Pella, Norwalk, Osky, Newton who are all very close in size. Knoxville is leaving, which leaves Grinnell and Pella Christian as the remaing "smaller" schools. Perhaps something new will be formed at some point with the 5 bigger LHC schools, and schools like Indianola, Ottumwa, Marshalltown? It would be a big 3A, small 4A conference. To my knowledge, nothing lke that has ever been discussed, I'm just throwing ideas out.
This was discussed a few years ago with Indianola. The LHC was very interested in Indianola joining the conference. Someone was leaving the conference at that time and I apologize as I can not remember who it was.
Indianola had a town hall meeting for discussions and some good conversation both pro and con was brought up.
Then it was presented to the school board to action, the vice president motioned that the school make the change of the conferences. Sadly it was never even seconded but a very gutless school board, I say gutless for the reason with no motion to second then it as tabled and no floor discussion and the board members never had to comment on the subject. How the heck can you have a town hall meeting wth discussion, an article in the dsm register and local paper bout the possible change. Then the school board sit on their hands and done even have the courage to step up and speak the views or opinions. They just did not want any confrontation.
Guess we will see if this school board has any more courage to at least speak their minds and actually have the guts to take a vote on it.
As a long time resident of the town I am not sure the move is the best.
Indy was one of the original CIC members Central Iowa Conference, (Boone, Ankeny, SEP, South Tama, Grinnell, Urbandale, Indianola, Saydel) Indianola would be pretty much saying good bye to annual opponents for some 40 yrs or so vs Ankeny, SEP, and Urbandale. Tho those may have slowly become competitive mismatches over the years they were always good rival games and brought good crowds and gates, a financial loss will be the result.
It has already become obvious with some of the small travel parties from the dsm schools, In addition some sports have very low turnouts or have non existent teams at all in some sports i.e. girls basketball. Is that an advantage for the Indianola community.
Indianola dropped the ball not going to LHC a few years back, what I think they need to do now is try and pursue, Newton, Marshalltwon, Ottumwa, Norwalk, Oskaloosa, Pella, and Dallas Center Grimes. Mix of 3a/4a schools. But schools that are somewhat comparable in BEDS numbers and competitive edge.
This is all just my opinion and in 9 months will not be a factor to me at all as my kids will be all done with high school sports.
I won't hide behind a profile name on these opinions
Brad Bunting-Indianola resident
Indianola had a town hall meeting for discussions and some good conversation both pro and con was brought up.
Then it was presented to the school board to action, the vice president motioned that the school make the change of the conferences. Sadly it was never even seconded but a very gutless school board, I say gutless for the reason with no motion to second then it as tabled and no floor discussion and the board members never had to comment on the subject. How the heck can you have a town hall meeting wth discussion, an article in the dsm register and local paper bout the possible change. Then the school board sit on their hands and done even have the courage to step up and speak the views or opinions. They just did not want any confrontation.
Guess we will see if this school board has any more courage to at least speak their minds and actually have the guts to take a vote on it.
As a long time resident of the town I am not sure the move is the best.
Indy was one of the original CIC members Central Iowa Conference, (Boone, Ankeny, SEP, South Tama, Grinnell, Urbandale, Indianola, Saydel) Indianola would be pretty much saying good bye to annual opponents for some 40 yrs or so vs Ankeny, SEP, and Urbandale. Tho those may have slowly become competitive mismatches over the years they were always good rival games and brought good crowds and gates, a financial loss will be the result.
It has already become obvious with some of the small travel parties from the dsm schools, In addition some sports have very low turnouts or have non existent teams at all in some sports i.e. girls basketball. Is that an advantage for the Indianola community.
Indianola dropped the ball not going to LHC a few years back, what I think they need to do now is try and pursue, Newton, Marshalltwon, Ottumwa, Norwalk, Oskaloosa, Pella, and Dallas Center Grimes. Mix of 3a/4a schools. But schools that are somewhat comparable in BEDS numbers and competitive edge.
This is all just my opinion and in 9 months will not be a factor to me at all as my kids will be all done with high school sports.
I won't hide behind a profile name on these opinions
Brad Bunting-Indianola resident
Good Post, Brad. I'm Joe Cunningham, by the way, if you remember me from your days as my "boss" while I was a Simpson student.
...It was South Tama leaving the LHC a few years back.
I love long time stability, but conferences will always evolve. The Little Hawkeye was great for us (Knoxville) for about 10 years, but we've shrunk to where we have about 120 kids per class, and even lower in the grade schools. DCG, Pella, Osky, Newton, Norwalk are closer to 200-220 with a couple of them still growing. We're heading back to a conference we were in for over 50 years before joining the LHC. Lots of schools are going through growing or shrinking issues, so I feel there will be alot of this evolving over the years.
...It was South Tama leaving the LHC a few years back.
I love long time stability, but conferences will always evolve. The Little Hawkeye was great for us (Knoxville) for about 10 years, but we've shrunk to where we have about 120 kids per class, and even lower in the grade schools. DCG, Pella, Osky, Newton, Norwalk are closer to 200-220 with a couple of them still growing. We're heading back to a conference we were in for over 50 years before joining the LHC. Lots of schools are going through growing or shrinking issues, so I feel there will be alot of this evolving over the years.
If I could chime in regarding the comment about FD and MC being the "giants" with the area smaller schools...given how competitive those two have been in the last decade, I don't think they would dominate at all, and I seriously doubt they would consistently even be near the top in other sports.
The reason is that both cities have well funded parochial schools who seem to draw the "elite" athletes more often than not. I only wonder what the financial fallout might be. I have absolutely no idea how revenue is for FD and MC, but transportation expenses and time away from classes for the student/athletes would definitely be an upgrade if they would somehow join the NCC.
The reason is that both cities have well funded parochial schools who seem to draw the "elite" athletes more often than not. I only wonder what the financial fallout might be. I have absolutely no idea how revenue is for FD and MC, but transportation expenses and time away from classes for the student/athletes would definitely be an upgrade if they would somehow join the NCC.
Screwloose,
Before the CIML and MRC asked the IHSAA to create the four divisions in 4A football, it seemed that the CIML had proposed their current setup for the rest of the sports to be used for football. IMO this alignment (8 teams) would have worked for the 3 isolated 4A schools and the 5- Des Moines schools in football. There is some truth to the earlier statement that these 8 schools struggle to compete with the suburban Des Moines schools in all sports including football, based on the commitment that the suburban schools have made to their sports programs. I think the emergence of Waukee, Johnston, SEP with the Ankeny, Valley, and Dowling have made it difficult for these 8 schools to compete in all sports.
The IHSAA took care of their 4A football exception this winter with districts. I don't think it will affect the outcome of the playoffs, but it radically changes some 4A football schedules this year...along with some travel arrangements.
The Marshalltown AD seems to be very committed to scheduling other teams that they can compete with in all sports?
Before the CIML and MRC asked the IHSAA to create the four divisions in 4A football, it seemed that the CIML had proposed their current setup for the rest of the sports to be used for football. IMO this alignment (8 teams) would have worked for the 3 isolated 4A schools and the 5- Des Moines schools in football. There is some truth to the earlier statement that these 8 schools struggle to compete with the suburban Des Moines schools in all sports including football, based on the commitment that the suburban schools have made to their sports programs. I think the emergence of Waukee, Johnston, SEP with the Ankeny, Valley, and Dowling have made it difficult for these 8 schools to compete in all sports.
The IHSAA took care of their 4A football exception this winter with districts. I don't think it will affect the outcome of the playoffs, but it radically changes some 4A football schedules this year...along with some travel arrangements.
The Marshalltown AD seems to be very committed to scheduling other teams that they can compete with in all sports?
I would think that if this non-football conference was formed, that the members would be compelled to schedule all 4 of their non district football games against the 4A members of that conference? I also think that with the open scheduling slots with just 8 teams, that both Mason City and Ft Dodge would still be part of the Des Moines city schools/Marshalltown scheduling. I am not sure if Ft Dodge schedules Sioux City high schools or if Mason City schedules Waterloo/Cedar Falls schools for all other sports?
If those 8 schools left the current 19 member CIML all sports conference, there would be a lot of schedule slots for the remaining teams to fill with their DSM neighbors and nearby 3A schools.
If those 8 schools left the current 19 member CIML all sports conference, there would be a lot of schedule slots for the remaining teams to fill with their DSM neighbors and nearby 3A schools.
It would definitely loosen the strings on scheduling, for non-football sports, at least.
As for Fort Dodge, in baseball this year - their non-CIML scheduled teams are: Davenport West, Clinton(2), Sioux City North(1 & 1), Sioux City East, Boone and Fort Dodge St Edmond.
Mason City, in baseball this year - their non-CIML scheduled teams are: Algona, Decorah, Waterloo West(2), Cedar Falls, Sioux City East, Lewis Central, Pleasant Valley, Glenwood, Clear Lake, Mason City Newman, Forest City and Boone.
Appears already that Fort Dodge and especially Mason City plays a lot of games out of the CIML group. Some of those might be tournaments, I'm not sure. But still...
As for Fort Dodge, in baseball this year - their non-CIML scheduled teams are: Davenport West, Clinton(2), Sioux City North(1 & 1), Sioux City East, Boone and Fort Dodge St Edmond.
Mason City, in baseball this year - their non-CIML scheduled teams are: Algona, Decorah, Waterloo West(2), Cedar Falls, Sioux City East, Lewis Central, Pleasant Valley, Glenwood, Clear Lake, Mason City Newman, Forest City and Boone.
Appears already that Fort Dodge and especially Mason City plays a lot of games out of the CIML group. Some of those might be tournaments, I'm not sure. But still...
It seems like the size of the present day CIML was driven by the need for complete 4A football schedules...over the course of 3 decades. Now that there are no longer conferences at the 4A football level, there probably is no need for a 19 team league. As you pointed out Mason City and Ft Dodge have a diverse baseball schedule, so scheduling schools in 3A competition in other sports seems like a practical solution.
Ottumwa still schedules schools from the their old Southeast 7 days. I believe they were considering a move to playing in the all 3A league with these schools earlier this year. This newer 8 team league seems like a more logical move since they have scheduled these teams in all sports since the late 90s and it assures 4A competition. IMO (based on the Marshalltown AD's comments) this conference alignment would have been extended to 4A football eventually, if the IHSAA had not slowly moved to create 4A districts over the course of 3 years.
I traveled to Iowa recently. IMO the addition of 4 lane roads on highway 63 to 163 plus highway 34 ( over the last several years) has dramatically changed travel to Des Moines from Southeastern Iowa. But you could say the same thing about travel to Iowa City and Cedar Rapids from Southeastern Iowa also. Travel for high school sports seems safer now for the 3A and 4A schools in that area.
I do admire the Marshalltown AD's intention to increase sports participation level in all 8 of those schools with this conference. I am not sure if an easier schedule will increase participation rates, but he is making an effort to change that trend.
This post was edited on 7/5 7:30 AM by tnobd
Ottumwa still schedules schools from the their old Southeast 7 days. I believe they were considering a move to playing in the all 3A league with these schools earlier this year. This newer 8 team league seems like a more logical move since they have scheduled these teams in all sports since the late 90s and it assures 4A competition. IMO (based on the Marshalltown AD's comments) this conference alignment would have been extended to 4A football eventually, if the IHSAA had not slowly moved to create 4A districts over the course of 3 years.
I traveled to Iowa recently. IMO the addition of 4 lane roads on highway 63 to 163 plus highway 34 ( over the last several years) has dramatically changed travel to Des Moines from Southeastern Iowa. But you could say the same thing about travel to Iowa City and Cedar Rapids from Southeastern Iowa also. Travel for high school sports seems safer now for the 3A and 4A schools in that area.
I do admire the Marshalltown AD's intention to increase sports participation level in all 8 of those schools with this conference. I am not sure if an easier schedule will increase participation rates, but he is making an effort to change that trend.
This post was edited on 7/5 7:30 AM by tnobd
FD and MC joining the NCC would be great, I think NCC was debating switching over to a small school large school type split anyway where for sports like basketball you play each of your in conference opponents twice and the other side you just play once a season. Which would mean FD and MC could seek out out of conference games if they truly wanted to play 4A schools. MC has been hurting for a long long time because of transportation costs so that would be a huge win for them to play schools nearby like that.
Here's what I see happening...
First, these eight schools form a new conference.
Second, the remaining schools from Polk, Dallas and Story Counties will either break away or force Fort Dodge and Mason City out. Those schools were brought in because they had no home and, I think, as an indirect favor to Marshalltown.
Third, Fort Dodge and Mason City again will have no real home. Mason City will try to form or get into a local 3A conference, with or without Fort Dodge. Fort Dodge will weigh their options as far as going with Mason City in the more local set-up or moving to the MRAC to keep a more 4A exclusive schedule in all other sports.
Just my opinion.
First, these eight schools form a new conference.
Second, the remaining schools from Polk, Dallas and Story Counties will either break away or force Fort Dodge and Mason City out. Those schools were brought in because they had no home and, I think, as an indirect favor to Marshalltown.
Third, Fort Dodge and Mason City again will have no real home. Mason City will try to form or get into a local 3A conference, with or without Fort Dodge. Fort Dodge will weigh their options as far as going with Mason City in the more local set-up or moving to the MRAC to keep a more 4A exclusive schedule in all other sports.
Just my opinion.
FD is the smaller of the 2 between them and MC with 837. The largest NCC school is WC with 409. That figures to both MC and FD being over 2x the size of all the others. With SE at 178, that means FD is 4.7x their size. I don't see the NCC liking that situation. Also, would you really be willing to walk down the halls of FD and MC and tell their kids all the good athletes are over at the Catholic school. Come on, both schools have plenty of good athletes compared to their inter-city counterparts. Like any school, it goes in cycles. Newman rocks the baseball world and I don't see them doing all that well at other male sports. SE's recent success in track and wrestling may run dry soon, they will always do well in bball, baseball, softball, and xc as long as those coaches are there. However, I am not sure they can compete year in and year out with those 2 big boys. I agree it may be best for those 2, but not for the present 8.
Besides that, look at some of the other matchups. What would Fort Dodge and Mason City get out of playing Clarion-Goldfield and Hampton-Dumont every year?
I think those schools would be at the forefront of those against the idea....
First of all, I'd be all for those 8 schools walking off on the suburb schools. They probably won't care, because the circle-jerk will just be that much more confined, similar to the SEC in football, as very little waters down that conference and even their weaker members get a boost from being associated with the top of the line. But at least the 8 leaving will have much more competitive freedom and scheduling freedom.
As for Fort Dodge and Mason City, Fort Dodge could probably get away with playing in the MRC although driving to Council Bluffs twice a year (and them to FD) would be a chore. But then you add on an extra 1.5 hrs for Mason City from FD, and that's almost not worth leaving the CIML. FD joining would give the MRC 8 members, since CB Lewis Central is committed to the Hawkeye 10. And with those other schools leaving, Mason City staying in the CIML would give them an even 10 members.
It's also a stretch but Fort Dodge could join the Raccoon River Conference (and Mason City too), The only issue is that Boone would be the next largest and currently they're just under 300 kids smaller than Fort Dodge. Though schools like Boone, ADM, Carroll, and Winterset already often challenge the 4A schools OOC, including Fort Dodge.
Mason City could give the Northeast Iowa Conference 8 members although again Mason City at 866 vs Waverly-Shell Rock at 526. Just depends on how much of an issue the enrollment difference would be.
Otherwise, what you're left with is a potential realization that maybe forming these "super-conferences" was not the greatest idea and they try to get the band back together in the form of the old Big 8, minus Marshalltown, Newton and probably Ames.
Fort Dodge, Mason City, Cedar Falls, Waterloo East, and Waterloo West............from there they could extend invites to a number of schools even though enrollment size will be a discrepancy. Boone, Waverly-Shell Rock and Decorah could get invites to reform the old Big 8 if the other 3 originals (Ames, Marshalltown, Newton) would be happier in other locales.
Or perhaps the Dubuque schools jump the MVC ship along with the Waterloo schools. You could have a conference that looks like this:
Waterloo West- 1,264
Dubuque Senior- 1,236
Dubuque Hempstead- 1,227
Cedar Falls- 1,176
Waterloo East- 870
Mason City- 866
Fort Dodge- 837
*Western Dubuque, Epworth- 624
*Dubuque Wahlert- 408
*- Wahlert and Epworth would be playing up as both are traditionally 3A.
The biggest issue would be the near-3 hr trips for Fort Dodge and Mason City to Dubuque. I think there would be decent competitive balance from such a conference. It is just an idea, though.
Ideally, in the case of reviving the old Big 8, getting at least Marshalltown, and maybe Ames would be big for that conference. Then they could have their pick of who would fill that last spot since Newton is probably content in the Little Hawkeye. This is why someone like Boone or Waverly-Shell Rock could come into play.
I think those schools would be at the forefront of those against the idea....
First of all, I'd be all for those 8 schools walking off on the suburb schools. They probably won't care, because the circle-jerk will just be that much more confined, similar to the SEC in football, as very little waters down that conference and even their weaker members get a boost from being associated with the top of the line. But at least the 8 leaving will have much more competitive freedom and scheduling freedom.
As for Fort Dodge and Mason City, Fort Dodge could probably get away with playing in the MRC although driving to Council Bluffs twice a year (and them to FD) would be a chore. But then you add on an extra 1.5 hrs for Mason City from FD, and that's almost not worth leaving the CIML. FD joining would give the MRC 8 members, since CB Lewis Central is committed to the Hawkeye 10. And with those other schools leaving, Mason City staying in the CIML would give them an even 10 members.
It's also a stretch but Fort Dodge could join the Raccoon River Conference (and Mason City too), The only issue is that Boone would be the next largest and currently they're just under 300 kids smaller than Fort Dodge. Though schools like Boone, ADM, Carroll, and Winterset already often challenge the 4A schools OOC, including Fort Dodge.
Mason City could give the Northeast Iowa Conference 8 members although again Mason City at 866 vs Waverly-Shell Rock at 526. Just depends on how much of an issue the enrollment difference would be.
Otherwise, what you're left with is a potential realization that maybe forming these "super-conferences" was not the greatest idea and they try to get the band back together in the form of the old Big 8, minus Marshalltown, Newton and probably Ames.
Fort Dodge, Mason City, Cedar Falls, Waterloo East, and Waterloo West............from there they could extend invites to a number of schools even though enrollment size will be a discrepancy. Boone, Waverly-Shell Rock and Decorah could get invites to reform the old Big 8 if the other 3 originals (Ames, Marshalltown, Newton) would be happier in other locales.
Or perhaps the Dubuque schools jump the MVC ship along with the Waterloo schools. You could have a conference that looks like this:
Waterloo West- 1,264
Dubuque Senior- 1,236
Dubuque Hempstead- 1,227
Cedar Falls- 1,176
Waterloo East- 870
Mason City- 866
Fort Dodge- 837
*Western Dubuque, Epworth- 624
*Dubuque Wahlert- 408
*- Wahlert and Epworth would be playing up as both are traditionally 3A.
The biggest issue would be the near-3 hr trips for Fort Dodge and Mason City to Dubuque. I think there would be decent competitive balance from such a conference. It is just an idea, though.
Ideally, in the case of reviving the old Big 8, getting at least Marshalltown, and maybe Ames would be big for that conference. Then they could have their pick of who would fill that last spot since Newton is probably content in the Little Hawkeye. This is why someone like Boone or Waverly-Shell Rock could come into play.
It would have been gutless by the Indianola school board and administration to drop down to a Class 3A conference.
Indianola's commitment to athletic success by its school board and administration is the reason Indianola competes with and usually beats the much-larger Des Moines city schools in sports. The Des Moines Public Schools administration has a long history of failing to provide resources and/or respect for their athletic programs.
At the time of the previous conversations of conference change Indianola was not grouped in with the Des Moines city schools in their conference and football was not 4A district football either. They were in the CIML Central, Ankeny Dowling Johnston, SEP, and Urbandale.
The thought process was not so much to leave 4A sports but to play teams that were more the size of Indianola.
The last two seasons in football Indianola has played Oskaloosa in the opening game and the crowds and games were great.
The boys union has 4 classes as we all know.
Class 4A is top 48 schools
#1 has 2,140 students
#48 has 624 students
Difference of 1,516 students
Class 3A is next 64 schools
#49 has 599 students
#113 has 296 students
Difference of 303 students.
The talent pool is so largely out of whack. The girls union probably made the wise move a couple of years ago when they went to 5 classes. I am not seeing any indication that the boys union is anywhere near making that move.
If you look at Indianola's success against much larger DM schools you need to step back and look at the overall record those DM schools and what success they are having against non metro teams. There have been some successful runs but nothing of any consistency when it comes to sports like football and basketball.
This new conference gives a more competitive balance and with that I would think the participation numbers of student athletes will also raise. Lets be honest kids today don't want to play on a losing team so its just easier not to go out rather than battle and work and try to make a change for a better program.
Overall this move makes sense because basically its the only option Indianola has today. The current conference as it stands now is Indianola, Ottumwa, the DM metro schools, so the only change is bringing in Marshalltown.
Couple years ago the LHC made so much sense. The only set back was the football schedule as Indianola was locked into a 4A schedule. You have to remember back then some of the schools that were already in the LHC were classified as 4A schools for post season tourneys.
The thought process was not so much to leave 4A sports but to play teams that were more the size of Indianola.
The last two seasons in football Indianola has played Oskaloosa in the opening game and the crowds and games were great.
The boys union has 4 classes as we all know.
Class 4A is top 48 schools
#1 has 2,140 students
#48 has 624 students
Difference of 1,516 students
Class 3A is next 64 schools
#49 has 599 students
#113 has 296 students
Difference of 303 students.
The talent pool is so largely out of whack. The girls union probably made the wise move a couple of years ago when they went to 5 classes. I am not seeing any indication that the boys union is anywhere near making that move.
If you look at Indianola's success against much larger DM schools you need to step back and look at the overall record those DM schools and what success they are having against non metro teams. There have been some successful runs but nothing of any consistency when it comes to sports like football and basketball.
This new conference gives a more competitive balance and with that I would think the participation numbers of student athletes will also raise. Lets be honest kids today don't want to play on a losing team so its just easier not to go out rather than battle and work and try to make a change for a better program.
Overall this move makes sense because basically its the only option Indianola has today. The current conference as it stands now is Indianola, Ottumwa, the DM metro schools, so the only change is bringing in Marshalltown.
Couple years ago the LHC made so much sense. The only set back was the football schedule as Indianola was locked into a 4A schedule. You have to remember back then some of the schools that were already in the LHC were classified as 4A schools for post season tourneys.
I agree with IASOONER's take on this new conference. They are just adding Marshalltown to the current Metro portion of the CIML and separating it from the suburban schools in all sports. Eliminating football conferences at the 4A level probably gives all of the large schools a lot more scheduling freedom. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am assuming the other classes change conference alignments frequently for all sports except football?
Why couldn't this same new conference add Mason City and Ft Dodge and just schedule 1 game per non football sport per year in home and way series with the Ottumwa and Indianola?
Why couldn't this same new conference add Mason City and Ft Dodge and just schedule 1 game per non football sport per year in home and way series with the Ottumwa and Indianola?
I would tend to agree that I though Indianola should have joined the LHC a couple of years ago. Looking at the long term, Newton is already a 4A school. DCG and Norwalk will be there soon. Pella is continuing to grow and has larger classes in the elementary schools then what is in the high school right now. Osky is a large 3A school. A great conference would be Ottumwa, Marshalltown, Indianola, Osky, Pella, Grinnell, DCG, and Norwalk, and Newton. The BED difference isn't glaring and, in fact, will probably lessen in upcoming years. Travel wouldn't be as much of an issue. That would leave Pella Christian out, but they might be a good fit in the South Central Conference. I don't blame Knoxville for moving to the SCC. Probably a good move in the long run. It does mess with some historic rivalries, but that is life and sometimes change is needed.
If Indianola is concerned about fan base and revenue, I think it is safe to say that the Des Moines schools wouldn't have the travel base that the LHC schools have. Pella is playing Des Moines schools more and more in all sports and the travel base that I see from them isn't overly impressive, and that is unfortunate. Also, if a team wins, they get more of a fan base. Granted, Indianola would do well if playing mostly the Des Moines schools as well, so that argument is a wash. What a great rivalry Indianola could build with Norwalk though, it seems like it is a natural fit. I'm pretty sure Newton has not regretted joining the LHC as it gives them great competition, less travel time, a better chance at sustained success in sports (other than football where they have been historically good), and some great rivalries have developed.
The other issue is that the Des Moines Public schools have traditionally not had much of a middle school sports program, or freshman programs for that matter. Scheduling for non-varsity sports will be more difficult.
I'm obviously biased by my opinion here, but I think in looking at the long term, this might be a great opportunity for some area schools to look at what might be available. Probably will never happen.....
If Indianola is concerned about fan base and revenue, I think it is safe to say that the Des Moines schools wouldn't have the travel base that the LHC schools have. Pella is playing Des Moines schools more and more in all sports and the travel base that I see from them isn't overly impressive, and that is unfortunate. Also, if a team wins, they get more of a fan base. Granted, Indianola would do well if playing mostly the Des Moines schools as well, so that argument is a wash. What a great rivalry Indianola could build with Norwalk though, it seems like it is a natural fit. I'm pretty sure Newton has not regretted joining the LHC as it gives them great competition, less travel time, a better chance at sustained success in sports (other than football where they have been historically good), and some great rivalries have developed.
The other issue is that the Des Moines Public schools have traditionally not had much of a middle school sports program, or freshman programs for that matter. Scheduling for non-varsity sports will be more difficult.
I'm obviously biased by my opinion here, but I think in looking at the long term, this might be a great opportunity for some area schools to look at what might be available. Probably will never happen.....
FMCLONEFAN I totally agree with all of what you said,
I see today Ottumwa schools board went ahead and had the vote as if it was a go; to show where they stood on things.
Sadly again I will be the bad guy but it seems Indianola is a reactive town opposed to a proactive town.
You do this long enough the next thing you know you are left out in the cold and left behind with no options but to go with the big boys of the CIML is my fear.
I see today Ottumwa schools board went ahead and had the vote as if it was a go; to show where they stood on things.
Sadly again I will be the bad guy but it seems Indianola is a reactive town opposed to a proactive town.
You do this long enough the next thing you know you are left out in the cold and left behind with no options but to go with the big boys of the CIML is my fear.
"It would have been gutless by the Indianola school board and administration to drop down to a Class 3A conference.
Indianola's commitment to athletic success by its school board and administration is the reason Indianola competes with and usually beats the much-larger Des Moines city schools in sports. The Des Moines Public Schools administration has a long history of failing to provide resources and/or respect for their athletic programs."
So this is your argument that it would have been gutless to drop down to a Class 3A conference? You would rather have in your conference a group of schools that have "a long history of failing to provide resources" to their athletic programs? Do you think this will change? Just not sure how that decision would have been gutless. I think you might be short changing that poor little 3A conference you speak of.
Indianola's commitment to athletic success by its school board and administration is the reason Indianola competes with and usually beats the much-larger Des Moines city schools in sports. The Des Moines Public Schools administration has a long history of failing to provide resources and/or respect for their athletic programs."
So this is your argument that it would have been gutless to drop down to a Class 3A conference? You would rather have in your conference a group of schools that have "a long history of failing to provide resources" to their athletic programs? Do you think this will change? Just not sure how that decision would have been gutless. I think you might be short changing that poor little 3A conference you speak of.
This conference sounds like an "all or nothing" vote for the 8 new members? I assume the Indianola school board wants to wait until the Des Moines schools fulfill their game contracts with the suburban schools, before they make their decision about moving to a new conference?
Again, as Screwloose pointed out, this new conference is not connected to 4A football. The non 4A high schools have had multiple class conferences for years. So this new 4A non football conference would be smaller and would afford the schools the opportunity to schedule more nearby 3A teams....correct? As long as every school is in the playoffs for all other sports, I don't see that it matters which conference they are in. The only advantages for playing the large suburban 4A programs are possibly better gate receipts by the visiting teams and better preparation for the playoffs.
This post was edited on 7/16 5:11 AM by tnobd
Again, as Screwloose pointed out, this new conference is not connected to 4A football. The non 4A high schools have had multiple class conferences for years. So this new 4A non football conference would be smaller and would afford the schools the opportunity to schedule more nearby 3A teams....correct? As long as every school is in the playoffs for all other sports, I don't see that it matters which conference they are in. The only advantages for playing the large suburban 4A programs are possibly better gate receipts by the visiting teams and better preparation for the playoffs.
This post was edited on 7/16 5:11 AM by tnobd
Now that the Des Moines school board has essentially tabled the topic for 2 years, nothing will happen soon anyway. I give the Ottumwa school board credit for getting their view out there for the others to know. Surely those smaller schools in the metro conference will do something to get away from the SEC arm of the conference. I don't know how the rest of Iowa will keep up with the arms race that is going on in the suburb schools. I'm not sure if it amazes me or makes me nauseated when we go to Southeast Polk to play baseball on the same turf field that the University of Texas has. Honestly, all this is getting out of hand, but that train has long ago left the station.
Haven't been inside it, only driven by the outside. I can only imagine. I see Johnston is going to spend 78 million on a new high school. That will have to be some high school! That's pretty darn expensive.
The amount of money being spent is crazy. I know we all want our kids (and I have 4) to have a great education, but do they really have to have a high school like a small college campus to do this? I live in a fairly wealthy community, but our high school isn't the Taj Mahal. It doesn't even have air conditioning. But, our kids do very well in sports, other extra curricular activities and in academics. I'm very confident a proposal for a 78 million dollar anything here wouldn't fly. I don't have the answers, but it can't keep escalating like this. Pretty soon you have a 52 million dollar football stadium that had to be closed in its first few years do to safety concerns and then Joe Public is out that money (in Texas).
The amount of money being spent is crazy. I know we all want our kids (and I have 4) to have a great education, but do they really have to have a high school like a small college campus to do this? I live in a fairly wealthy community, but our high school isn't the Taj Mahal. It doesn't even have air conditioning. But, our kids do very well in sports, other extra curricular activities and in academics. I'm very confident a proposal for a 78 million dollar anything here wouldn't fly. I don't have the answers, but it can't keep escalating like this. Pretty soon you have a 52 million dollar football stadium that had to be closed in its first few years do to safety concerns and then Joe Public is out that money (in Texas).
Sooner,
Is Indianola walking on the fence on this new non- football conference?
I saw an article that stated they attended a meeting with the CIML suburban schools, Ames, Ft Dodge, and Mason City
concerning this matter.
I would be interesting if the 5 Des Moines Schools, Marshalltown, and Indianola tabled their decision for two years other than the reasons they noted publically?
I could understand that the less competitive schools would like to play at those better suburban venues...even if it means taking a loss...but Marshalltown and the Des Moines Schools seemed like they were on board with the change.
Is Indianola walking on the fence on this new non- football conference?
I saw an article that stated they attended a meeting with the CIML suburban schools, Ames, Ft Dodge, and Mason City
concerning this matter.
I would be interesting if the 5 Des Moines Schools, Marshalltown, and Indianola tabled their decision for two years other than the reasons they noted publically?
I could understand that the less competitive schools would like to play at those better suburban venues...even if it means taking a loss...but Marshalltown and the Des Moines Schools seemed like they were on board with the change.
fmclone,
They completed a new high school in my area (TN) in 2008. It has a 2100 student capacity ( 4-grades) and was built for about 50 million. It was roughly 10 million over budget when completed. Even with 6 years of cost escalation 78 million should build a district a plush high school. Are new athletic fields part of the scope with the Johnston proposal?
They completed a new high school in my area (TN) in 2008. It has a 2100 student capacity ( 4-grades) and was built for about 50 million. It was roughly 10 million over budget when completed. Even with 6 years of cost escalation 78 million should build a district a plush high school. Are new athletic fields part of the scope with the Johnston proposal?
Solon has a new middle school being built for around 20million to house 4 grades (app 400 students). Tack on a (much needed) auditorium to the HS and its around a 25million price tag.
Instead of "no child left behind" it should be named "no dime left behind"...
Instead of "no child left behind" it should be named "no dime left behind"...
My gut feeling is IF they would have voted they would have agreed to the addition of Marshalltown.
Many people here in town have this feeling of being respected they have to be in the conf with the "more successful" schools. I am all for challenging your kids and seeing where you stand against the best. Selfishly I have brought my kids up to fear no opponent.
Here is an example I spoke about at the city meeting that night. Although it is football which this conf realignment does not concern but it is a prime example it is a numbers game.
3 yrs ago 9th grade football Indianola vs Valley. I believe the final was a Valley win by 6-8 points and was decided very late in the game
Indianola sideline had 24 kids Valley sideline had 90+ kids.
As of today that freshman class will seniors this year and the expected senior players is 13 kids.
Can the smaller varsity squads beat large squads, Yes. Indianola a couple yrs beat Ankeny, That night Indy had like 26 players (sophs-srs) and they beat Ankeny who had like 60+ plus.
The number 1s vs number 1s Indianola can hang in there. But with a smaller talent pool the drop off from 1s to 2s is larger at small enrollment schools.
The DM schools, Mtown, and Ottumwa have similar rosters sizes/participation as does Indianola. This is the foundation of the realignment.
My wish would be a conference in the near future of :
Indianola- 849
Norwalk-599
Pella- 519
Oskaloosa- 540
Newton-939
Dallas Center Grimes- 564
Ottumwa- 953
Marshalltown- 1061
This will I feel would be a very competitive league. School sizes may vary but I believe the roster size and talent is on a more even playing field.
IF Indianola does want to think outside the box and maybe make a move I would like to see them take the lead rather than be a periphery player and an add on team.
Right now the CIML teams that would not have been in the new conference I firmly believe wanted Indy to stay in the league to lighten the load of a gauntlet of a schedule.
Participation numbers are a direct influence of a teams success. If a team is winning people want to be on it whether they play or not. If its a losing program its easier to walk and quit or never go out.
With some of the programs we have here right now I will be the first to say that is an issue.
Whose to blame???
Everybody which includes: The Athletic Staff, Coaches, Players, School, Parents, and the community.
We have allowed the programs to falter. Its easy to complain and point fingers at anything in society, WE can all find the faults. The real people are the ones who find solutions and want to change.
Sorry for the rant.
Many people here in town have this feeling of being respected they have to be in the conf with the "more successful" schools. I am all for challenging your kids and seeing where you stand against the best. Selfishly I have brought my kids up to fear no opponent.
Here is an example I spoke about at the city meeting that night. Although it is football which this conf realignment does not concern but it is a prime example it is a numbers game.
3 yrs ago 9th grade football Indianola vs Valley. I believe the final was a Valley win by 6-8 points and was decided very late in the game
Indianola sideline had 24 kids Valley sideline had 90+ kids.
As of today that freshman class will seniors this year and the expected senior players is 13 kids.
Can the smaller varsity squads beat large squads, Yes. Indianola a couple yrs beat Ankeny, That night Indy had like 26 players (sophs-srs) and they beat Ankeny who had like 60+ plus.
The number 1s vs number 1s Indianola can hang in there. But with a smaller talent pool the drop off from 1s to 2s is larger at small enrollment schools.
The DM schools, Mtown, and Ottumwa have similar rosters sizes/participation as does Indianola. This is the foundation of the realignment.
My wish would be a conference in the near future of :
Indianola- 849
Norwalk-599
Pella- 519
Oskaloosa- 540
Newton-939
Dallas Center Grimes- 564
Ottumwa- 953
Marshalltown- 1061
This will I feel would be a very competitive league. School sizes may vary but I believe the roster size and talent is on a more even playing field.
IF Indianola does want to think outside the box and maybe make a move I would like to see them take the lead rather than be a periphery player and an add on team.
Right now the CIML teams that would not have been in the new conference I firmly believe wanted Indy to stay in the league to lighten the load of a gauntlet of a schedule.
Participation numbers are a direct influence of a teams success. If a team is winning people want to be on it whether they play or not. If its a losing program its easier to walk and quit or never go out.
With some of the programs we have here right now I will be the first to say that is an issue.
Whose to blame???
Everybody which includes: The Athletic Staff, Coaches, Players, School, Parents, and the community.
We have allowed the programs to falter. Its easy to complain and point fingers at anything in society, WE can all find the faults. The real people are the ones who find solutions and want to change.
Sorry for the rant.
As it relates to football...a question and a point:
QUESTION: With Newton and (very soon Norwalk) being two of the 48 largest schools in Iowa, do they have to move up to 4A. If yes, when?
POINT: If Valley split their enrollment into two schools. Once split, they would remain the top #22 and #23 largest schools in the state. I realize it won't happen, just making a point that they are alarmingly much larger than any other school, yet this topic rarely comes up.
#1 Valley - 2140 beds
#2 East - 1691 beds (23% difference)...
#41 Indianola 849 beds (86% diff)
#47 Newton - 639 beds (108% diff)
#49 Norwalk - 599 beds (112% diff)
QUESTION: With Newton and (very soon Norwalk) being two of the 48 largest schools in Iowa, do they have to move up to 4A. If yes, when?
POINT: If Valley split their enrollment into two schools. Once split, they would remain the top #22 and #23 largest schools in the state. I realize it won't happen, just making a point that they are alarmingly much larger than any other school, yet this topic rarely comes up.
#1 Valley - 2140 beds
#2 East - 1691 beds (23% difference)...
#41 Indianola 849 beds (86% diff)
#47 Newton - 639 beds (108% diff)
#49 Norwalk - 599 beds (112% diff)
Class 4A in football is kind of an odd duck, in that it's not based on the number of schools in the class but rather strictly by the BEDS enrollment cutoff. If your BEDS number is 700 or higher, you are a 4A football school. For 2014-15, that means only 46 teams in 4A, and those two lovely five-team districts on the east side.
So I guess the answer to your question, as to when Norwalk and Newton move up to 4A football, is when either or both of them top that 700 BEDS number.
So I guess the answer to your question, as to when Norwalk and Newton move up to 4A football, is when either or both of them top that 700 BEDS number.
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