Iowa State Recruiting Class
- Thread starter Encore47
- Start date
I'm not crowning him an AA but a lot of people are pretty hard on the lightweights (and Yero Washington) so I want to make sure they get some credit when its due. It's nice to see you acknowledge the improvement and I agree that it is very drastic. Hopefully Luke can keep it up and a few guys can follow suit.
just got back from the Midlands, Hawks looked great but had a tough final round, they still won it by 45 points without St John. Kelly will do just fine @ 149. Looked weird seeing Morningstar in a Wisconsin shirt and Perry in a ILLILOIS shirt !! Northwestern got a solid 2nd place team finish with 2 champions and 105 points and they will finish any where from 4th to 7th place in the the Big 10's. ISU was 8th and it was good they at least cracked the Top 10 with 62 points, UNI was 16th with 41 points. Sorenson looked good but had a very tough Semi Final draw with Fittery. Spangler was the #1 seed, I was looking forward to seeing him wrestle a former Overtime Workout partner and Illinois State Champion, he could of wrestled either Munster from Northwestern or Blanton from Illinois. Spangler lost in the Quarters, double OT, to a D-2 kid, he got rode hard by the D-2 kid and couldn't get any offense going on his feet. That D-2 kid got spanked by the Wildcat's Munster in the Semi's and Munster took it to Lofthouse in the finals with 2 solid 1st period takedowns. The Clones HWT was a surprise to watch, and Boaz sat out at 184. As mentioned above, the upset over the #2 seed from Penn @ 141 was a shock but he was hurt going into the Midlands with a bad elbow and he lost again as well. There is a chance that the Cyclones will not win a dual this year and how ever you want to spin it ... that sucks. Yes Cael took a few kids but some of those have graduated and are no longer even wrestling, so... wouldn't have helped KJ this year ! Some that are gone were not taken by Cael at all, they were run off to other programs ... wrestling now but not for Penn State. I like Yero and he is 1 of the 2 positives that KJ brings to the team, the Paulson Twins is the other (+). It was the Paulson's that landed Destin, not KJ !! If the "twins leave", then McCauley bails on ISU just like Howe and Rutt did to Barry Davis at Wisconsin when his top 2 Asst Coaches left Madison. KJ lost a great coach to the Hawkeyes as well, Kurt Backes is doing a great job for Brands and is luving coaching on a winning team !! He does not miss the mess in Ames 1 bit, you say 0-8, and he gets a shit ass grin that say's it all !!!!
This post was edited on 1/2 3:26 PM by Beaver80
This post was edited on 1/2 3:26 PM by Beaver80
You make several good points, but I'm only going to disagree a little. Arizona State is pretty bad and has a lot of holes. ISU can win this because it will be a battle of two horrible teams. And I think UNI is a team that ISU can beat THIS year, since Schwab is building for next year and beyond.
It will be interesting to hear Clone fans touting the turnaround if they somehow win against ASU. False hope... but when you're grasping at straws, you'll take anything you can get.
BTW: Should ISU lose to ASU, the last remaining holdouts may finally realize KJ is toast.
It will be interesting to hear Clone fans touting the turnaround if they somehow win against ASU. False hope... but when you're grasping at straws, you'll take anything you can get.
BTW: Should ISU lose to ASU, the last remaining holdouts may finally realize KJ is toast.
The most important thing to realize when replacing someone is this: Do I have someone better in line? I am not going to say KJ should stay or leave, smarter people than I have the answer to that. However, if you let him go, who is going to replace him? Will that person do better? If you cannot answer that with an emphatic YES, than making the change is a bad idea. This goes for any sport.
If I was the AD at ISU... I've got a list of about four guys that I approach, and I think any of them are a huge upgrade over what they have now. You gotta get someone with college connections and someone that is a strong recruiter. KJ's apparent biggest problem has been dealing with younger guys(Not post-college olympic level). And his staff, to date, has been very weak... going by results.
The four guys I would look at... in this order... Heskett, Henson, Pritzlaf, and Marty Morgan.
If KJ's message to his wrestlers is equal to his public presentations...um, uh, um, uh,... no wonder there's a problem.
ISU head coach can still be a good job, but Pollard can't wait much longer.
The four guys I would look at... in this order... Heskett, Henson, Pritzlaf, and Marty Morgan.
If KJ's message to his wrestlers is equal to his public presentations...um, uh, um, uh,... no wonder there's a problem.
ISU head coach can still be a good job, but Pollard can't wait much longer.
After a respectible finish at the Midlands, Iowa St snagged their first dual win (25-14) of the season vs Arizona St.
kj will be there (mark my word) there is inside info that most of us are not in the inner circle on, some us are just looking at the surface but not what is really going on (dont get me wrong things look real bad brighter days are ahead and some of that could be seen at the midlands) i know that some think that i have my head in the sand when comes to the team but that is not so.
clones will get better
go clones
clones will get better
go clones
RRF: You are indeed entitled to your opinion about KJ. But you obviously have a biased opinion and a personal stake in this argument. So we can all take your argument with a grain of salt.
I am only basing my analysis on the results I've seen. I've followed collegiate wrestling for a very long time. Doesn't make me an expert, but I've never, ever seen this quick of a fall from relevance, and this rate of attrition from any wrestling program that would be considered somewhat elite.
As I said earlier... maybe Pollard isn't too involved regarding the wrestling program, because at ISU...football and MBB will pay the bills!
I am only basing my analysis on the results I've seen. I've followed collegiate wrestling for a very long time. Doesn't make me an expert, but I've never, ever seen this quick of a fall from relevance, and this rate of attrition from any wrestling program that would be considered somewhat elite.
As I said earlier... maybe Pollard isn't too involved regarding the wrestling program, because at ISU...football and MBB will pay the bills!
thanks for the comments, you have your opinion as do i, we all will just have to see how it will pan out
MBB and Football pay the bills in every major Divison 1 AD.
KJ has obviously had a terrible last two years, not of all which was his fault. Either way he is ultimately responsible.
Injuries have hurt, attrition has hurt, otherwise the biggest disappointment at this point is Cozart. Hopefully he will learn to adjust to this level/style.
You have to give him a couple more years, which he'll get. If we're still stuck in the mud, Pollard has a proven record of not hesitating to pull the trigger. Long term ISU wrestling will get back to a respectable level, I just hope sooner than later.
To me... KJ made too many promises that he couldn't keep. He said there would be no gap years. There's been two, going on three. He said they would be competitive with the Hawks... not even close. He chose to bring in too many jucos, and they all failed miserably. He's thrown too many unprepared freshmen out there and destroyed their confidence. Hiring Voelker made absolutely no sense. He ran off Dalton Jensen to get Druoin into the lineup. How'd that work? And I could go on.
Bottom line is results, and he's not getting them.
He may indeed get two more years. ISU will be irrelevant and surpassed by UNI if that happens.
Bottom line is results, and he's not getting them.
He may indeed get two more years. ISU will be irrelevant and surpassed by UNI if that happens.
"To me... KJ made too many promises that he couldn't keep." - Then I'd say it's a good thing that you didn't commit to wrestle for him and ISU. Congrats, You can be thankful you are a Hawk fan.
"He said they would be competitive with the Hawkes" - IF he doesn't become competative within the next 2 years which is what most rational posters are suggesting then you will be proven right and Pollard will pull the plug on the KJ experiment.
"He chose to bring in too many jucos, and they all failed miserably." - In your expert opinion that ALL have failed miserbly. However, Matt Gibson is currently looking pretty good for a transfer. I could also name a few transfers that ended up helping the Hawks (and probably every other team in the country).
"He's thrown too many unprepared freshmen out there and destroyed their confidence." - in your opinion. Fact - no-one except the wrestlers themselves know the effect on their confidence. Fact - even the wrestlers themselves don't know how their careers will turn out in the next 2 to 3 years when they are Jrs & Srs.
"Hiring Voelker made absolutely no sense." - I'd wager that you have the same opinion on Yero.
"He ran off Dalton Jensen to get Druoin into the lineup. How'd that work?" Good point. I'm sure KJ is the first coach in history to have kids leave the program and then wish that the kid hadn't left. Oh wait, I changed my mind and now think this is a worthless point because I can think of a few times that this has happened with Cael Sanderson and other top notch coaches.
"And I could go on" - You already have gone on..and on..and on..and on. And I'm sure you will continue to do so. OR, maybe you could quit beating this dead horse and wait a couple of years. THEN you can tell everyone how you are right and knew that KJ was going to fail and ISU was going to continue to stink.
I know I would very much appreciate the latter approach. That way I can continue to live in my short sighted, biased world of "ISU has a bright future" denial.
Good day to you sir!
"He said they would be competitive with the Hawkes" - IF he doesn't become competative within the next 2 years which is what most rational posters are suggesting then you will be proven right and Pollard will pull the plug on the KJ experiment.
"He chose to bring in too many jucos, and they all failed miserably." - In your expert opinion that ALL have failed miserbly. However, Matt Gibson is currently looking pretty good for a transfer. I could also name a few transfers that ended up helping the Hawks (and probably every other team in the country).
"He's thrown too many unprepared freshmen out there and destroyed their confidence." - in your opinion. Fact - no-one except the wrestlers themselves know the effect on their confidence. Fact - even the wrestlers themselves don't know how their careers will turn out in the next 2 to 3 years when they are Jrs & Srs.
"Hiring Voelker made absolutely no sense." - I'd wager that you have the same opinion on Yero.
"He ran off Dalton Jensen to get Druoin into the lineup. How'd that work?" Good point. I'm sure KJ is the first coach in history to have kids leave the program and then wish that the kid hadn't left. Oh wait, I changed my mind and now think this is a worthless point because I can think of a few times that this has happened with Cael Sanderson and other top notch coaches.
"And I could go on" - You already have gone on..and on..and on..and on. And I'm sure you will continue to do so. OR, maybe you could quit beating this dead horse and wait a couple of years. THEN you can tell everyone how you are right and knew that KJ was going to fail and ISU was going to continue to stink.
I know I would very much appreciate the latter approach. That way I can continue to live in my short sighted, biased world of "ISU has a bright future" denial.
Good day to you sir!
I don't see that any of your responses to my specific points are very valid. Just another litany of excuses for what has looked liked a BAD hire from day 1. To you... a rational poster is a patient Clone fan. And that list of fans seems to be a shrinking commodity given wrestling attendance at Hilton.
He ran Dalton out. I thought everyone knew that! The jucos that didn't pan out... Carr Jr., Hawes, the 125(forget his name). You name Gibson. That's 25% of his juco experiment contributing. Maybe you think that's acceptable. I don't.
Other schools can be competitive using underclassmen, but KJ isn't. Development is objective, and my guess would be more fans than not think guys like Moreno, Weathermen(last year), Cozart, Terk, among others aren't prepared. We're undersized, we've had injuries, blah blah blah.
Everything you say is give him more time. He wasn't prepared to coach 18-19 year old kids. His expertise was post-college guys.
My opinion on YW is well known. How many lightweight guys have done anything in the three years of the KJ regime? Objective answer... ZERO YERO.
Get back to me when you return to the real world.
He ran Dalton out. I thought everyone knew that! The jucos that didn't pan out... Carr Jr., Hawes, the 125(forget his name). You name Gibson. That's 25% of his juco experiment contributing. Maybe you think that's acceptable. I don't.
Other schools can be competitive using underclassmen, but KJ isn't. Development is objective, and my guess would be more fans than not think guys like Moreno, Weathermen(last year), Cozart, Terk, among others aren't prepared. We're undersized, we've had injuries, blah blah blah.
Everything you say is give him more time. He wasn't prepared to coach 18-19 year old kids. His expertise was post-college guys.
My opinion on YW is well known. How many lightweight guys have done anything in the three years of the KJ regime? Objective answer... ZERO YERO.
Get back to me when you return to the real world.
I imagine you are implying that YW was an enabler in AL's life because he probably was his room coach. Yet another strike against YW. Using Long's name doesn't gain you much credibility around here if you are connecting the two!
Ouch! That all you got?
This post was edited on 1/5 5:13 PM by MitchL
Ouch! That all you got?
This post was edited on 1/5 5:13 PM by MitchL
Good to see ISU get a win .. Andrew has worked to hard as a Team Captain to be a member of a "win - less" dual team. Again Andrew looked great against ASU, with Spangler out at 174 the Clones didn't miss a beat there, great to see Boaz back, the rest of sitting out of the Midlands looks like a smart move. ISU still could have got beat, the 141 lb match was the difference !! Reading the college thread on the mat.com it said that the ISU kid was pinned and it was not called and then later in the match the ISU 141 gets the pin ... if 1st PIN called, that is a 12 point swing. Also read on the ISU Board that Tanner Weatherman, a red shirt, went with the team to ASU so he get get the "feel" of traveling with the team for duals. ?? NCAA Violation ?? A redshirt can not travel with the team to varsity competition. Did he buy his own ticket to Zona ?? He went to the Midlands with $$ from the Cyclone Club because that is an "OPEN" event and Redshirts can go to Open Tourney's with Club Money. Watch out K.J. !!!!
This post was edited on 1/6 6:19 AM by Beaver80
This post was edited on 1/6 6:19 AM by Beaver80
Beaver80, You don't know any more facts about Tanner Weatherman than the person that posted the info. I'm sure KJ knows what the rules are concerning Tanner Weatherman traveling with the team and none were probably broken. I don't know what arrangements were made and I'm sure they never called you and told you what the arrangement were. You are grasping for straws!
Easy there, buf. He's obviously a Clone fan and the LAST thing Clone Nation needs is their fans fighting amongst themselves. I took it, and he stated clearly, that others reported the story. It isn't something he invented himself!
If, and I say if, that really happened... given KJ's relatively short time coaching in college, it's not out of the realm to think a violation may have occurred. Though this would be quite minor, it's certainly not something ISU needs.
When do you think ISU has a chance to be relatively competitive?
If, and I say if, that really happened... given KJ's relatively short time coaching in college, it's not out of the realm to think a violation may have occurred. Though this would be quite minor, it's certainly not something ISU needs.
When do you think ISU has a chance to be relatively competitive?
Beaver, do they actually have to officially declare a kid is redshirting during the season, or do/can they wait until the season is over to make this decision? If he is the second string wrestler at 1-2 different weights & there is a possibility that he could be inserted into the line-up, why would he not be allowed to travel with the team? I'm not doubting you since you have a son wrestling D1, but that seems odd.
You may be correct Mitch. There is alot of people that hear things from others and take it as fact. I do not know the traveling rules and open rules for redshirts, but if I ask people that I think should know, I'd get alot of different answers.
Its similiar to certification rules. I've seen dozens of answers and not sure which is correct.
Its similiar to certification rules. I've seen dozens of answers and not sure which is correct.
If you really want to hear my assesment I'll give you a quick one. IF you are just looking for a reason to bash ISU then I'm not interested in getting into a pissn match.
Quick assesment of the lightwgts after the season is over:
125 - Finch (grade B)- decent season, needs to improve and gain strength.
133 - (no grade - injuries/true freshman) I hope Meeks is the answer
141 - Goettle (B) - up and down season. In NCAA's he lost to higher ranked guys and had a great upset over Maple during the season. Future is bright.
149 - (F) disappointing that Cozart hasn't shown much. Hopefully Trent Weatherman can come back healthy and Destin McCauley is projected to be a stud here next year.
157 - Moreno (D) - he may be the one that I was disappoined with the most because I expected him to be at least a qualifier. He seamed to be battling nagging injuries a good part of the year. Hopefully he can add some strenght and improve a lot in the off-season.
btw - Yero has resigned so we will see who KJ brings in to replace him. It will be interesting to see how these RFreshman develop over the next year. IMO the expectations just went up because they (RFR) now have a year of varsity experiance under their belts. The honest answer to your question is maybe...I'd guess that it's a little bit of both since none of the light weight kids overperformed at nationals. I am a little disappointed in this but I'm typically an optimistic person. That said IF KJ can get a quality lightweight guy in the room I am looking for a much better year next year.
Regards, Supercyzd
This post was edited on 3/29 3:35 PM by supercyzd
Quick assesment of the lightwgts after the season is over:
125 - Finch (grade B)- decent season, needs to improve and gain strength.
133 - (no grade - injuries/true freshman) I hope Meeks is the answer
141 - Goettle (B) - up and down season. In NCAA's he lost to higher ranked guys and had a great upset over Maple during the season. Future is bright.
149 - (F) disappointing that Cozart hasn't shown much. Hopefully Trent Weatherman can come back healthy and Destin McCauley is projected to be a stud here next year.
157 - Moreno (D) - he may be the one that I was disappoined with the most because I expected him to be at least a qualifier. He seamed to be battling nagging injuries a good part of the year. Hopefully he can add some strenght and improve a lot in the off-season.
btw - Yero has resigned so we will see who KJ brings in to replace him. It will be interesting to see how these RFreshman develop over the next year. IMO the expectations just went up because they (RFR) now have a year of varsity experiance under their belts. The honest answer to your question is maybe...I'd guess that it's a little bit of both since none of the light weight kids overperformed at nationals. I am a little disappointed in this but I'm typically an optimistic person. That said IF KJ can get a quality lightweight guy in the room I am looking for a much better year next year.
Regards, Supercyzd
This post was edited on 3/29 3:35 PM by supercyzd
Thnx for the response. Now, I'll give my Iowa slant on things without the bashing.
None of the lighter guys will progress much without some quality workout room partners. A lightweight coach can only do so much and with KJ appearing to be on "thin ice", it's hard to imagine getting a top flite guy who may not be there for more than a year. There just isn't going to be great progress, imo, with the current staff.
That said, Meeks needs a redshirt, even if he's the best option at 133. And I think your "B" grade for Goettl is pretty generous given that he was a few matches from AAing. The fact that 149 doesn't appear to be loaded for next year may bode well for DM. He'll definitely will be an upgrade.
Finch is an unknown to me. He just didn't look confident this year and he looked horrible at Nationals.
For the sake of the loyal fans like yourself... I hope there's some improvement.
None of the lighter guys will progress much without some quality workout room partners. A lightweight coach can only do so much and with KJ appearing to be on "thin ice", it's hard to imagine getting a top flite guy who may not be there for more than a year. There just isn't going to be great progress, imo, with the current staff.
That said, Meeks needs a redshirt, even if he's the best option at 133. And I think your "B" grade for Goettl is pretty generous given that he was a few matches from AAing. The fact that 149 doesn't appear to be loaded for next year may bode well for DM. He'll definitely will be an upgrade.
Finch is an unknown to me. He just didn't look confident this year and he looked horrible at Nationals.
For the sake of the loyal fans like yourself... I hope there's some improvement.
Thanks for the non-bashing response and giving me your opinion. I do like to hear Hawk slanted opinions when someone's interested in hearing other takes. Here's a few thoughts on your take, if you are interested.
"None of the lighter guys will progress much without some quality workout room partners." - I agree that quality workout partner(s) will help.
"A lightweight coach can only do so much and with KJ appearing to be on "thin ice", it's hard to imagine getting a top flite guy who may not be there for more than a year. There just isn't going to be great progress, imo, with the current staff." - I don't disagree BUT I am hopeful that KJ can get a top flite guy. IF he does and they show some improvement it will really help him to get off of the "thin ice" IMO. KJ can really help his own cause by suprising his naysayers on this hire.
"That said, Meeks needs a redshirt, even if he's the best option at 133. And I think your "B" grade for Goettl is pretty generous given that he was a few matches from AAing. The fact that 149 doesn't appear to be loaded for next year may bode well for DM. He'll definitely will be an upgrade." - Meeks needing a redshirt is your opinion (not fact). Megeludes (sp?) from PSU was ready this year as a true freshman.
Finally, I also hope to see a lot of improvement.
"None of the lighter guys will progress much without some quality workout room partners." - I agree that quality workout partner(s) will help.
"A lightweight coach can only do so much and with KJ appearing to be on "thin ice", it's hard to imagine getting a top flite guy who may not be there for more than a year. There just isn't going to be great progress, imo, with the current staff." - I don't disagree BUT I am hopeful that KJ can get a top flite guy. IF he does and they show some improvement it will really help him to get off of the "thin ice" IMO. KJ can really help his own cause by suprising his naysayers on this hire.
"That said, Meeks needs a redshirt, even if he's the best option at 133. And I think your "B" grade for Goettl is pretty generous given that he was a few matches from AAing. The fact that 149 doesn't appear to be loaded for next year may bode well for DM. He'll definitely will be an upgrade." - Meeks needing a redshirt is your opinion (not fact). Megeludes (sp?) from PSU was ready this year as a true freshman.
Finally, I also hope to see a lot of improvement.
Super: My opinion regarding Meeks is based on the fact that 133 next season is absolutely LOADED with top quality returning AAs. And the fact that ISU is a long ways from being a title threat, so he'll likely not be adding much to the point total at Nationals.
However... if KJ is looking out for his own personal best interests... he's gotta show some improvements at a multitude of weights, and that leads me to believe that both Meeks and DM wrestle. Plus, the rumors in St Louis that we heard were that Barry Davis would not release Howe to Michigan and ISU was a possible destination if he did leave Wisky.
This possible eventual outcome makes ISU a top 20 team again. But, in realty, anything outside a top 10 will still be disappointing to the long time Clone supporters.
However... if KJ is looking out for his own personal best interests... he's gotta show some improvements at a multitude of weights, and that leads me to believe that both Meeks and DM wrestle. Plus, the rumors in St Louis that we heard were that Barry Davis would not release Howe to Michigan and ISU was a possible destination if he did leave Wisky.
This possible eventual outcome makes ISU a top 20 team again. But, in realty, anything outside a top 10 will still be disappointing to the long time Clone supporters.
as a coach/trainer and Al Garrison is second to none, if you ask some of the top level coaches in this state and they will tell you how good he is and how well prepared he has the wrestlers that he works with. if you look at his body of work over the past 8 years, i would bet that you have a difficult time finding someone that has done more.
last 8 years ( 1 one timer, 2 two timers, 1 4 timer = 7 titles ) 4 runner up wrestlers / at this time 8 guys div 1 / 2ncaa runnerup placings and one other AA placing
not bad at all and he is a great guy on top of it
last 8 years ( 1 one timer, 2 two timers, 1 4 timer = 7 titles ) 4 runner up wrestlers / at this time 8 guys div 1 / 2ncaa runnerup placings and one other AA placing
not bad at all and he is a great guy on top of it
Web - Mr. Meeks was not attacking you but the notion that Mr. Garrison deserves, and rightly so, more status than a walk on or volunteer.
My next point is that handled correctly, John Meeks and Destin McCaully may not benefit as much as one might think by redshirting. No doubt, either one of them could beat several people in their weight class now and still get the same amount of competition and maturity as they would by sitting out a year.
Not to say they wouldn't benefit from sitting out, but #1 Jackson has painted himself into that corner. #2 The decision has to be based on the kid himself.
This comes from the standpoint of a Hawk fan.
This post was edited on 5/10 12:31 PM by Trackn_mat
My next point is that handled correctly, John Meeks and Destin McCaully may not benefit as much as one might think by redshirting. No doubt, either one of them could beat several people in their weight class now and still get the same amount of competition and maturity as they would by sitting out a year.
Not to say they wouldn't benefit from sitting out, but #1 Jackson has painted himself into that corner. #2 The decision has to be based on the kid himself.
This comes from the standpoint of a Hawk fan.
This post was edited on 5/10 12:31 PM by Trackn_mat
To those ISU fans that feel he should wrestle this season if he is the best option... I think I've figured out your line of reasoning. Given the penchant that KJ's wrestlers have for incurring injuries early in their careers, if/when he sustains that first injury he'll have the opportunity to use both a regular AND medical redshirt to lengthen his career.
It will be to the benefit of the entire ISU wrestling squad if someone can figure out exactly what phase of KJ's workout and training program is contributing to the extremely high number of career ending injuries.
Someone whom I trust very much thinks that if he is using the same methods that worked for the post-college age athletes... the difference in body development of 18 or 19 year old guys is the reason. Specifically the upper body training.
It will be to the benefit of the entire ISU wrestling squad if someone can figure out exactly what phase of KJ's workout and training program is contributing to the extremely high number of career ending injuries.
Someone whom I trust very much thinks that if he is using the same methods that worked for the post-college age athletes... the difference in body development of 18 or 19 year old guys is the reason. Specifically the upper body training.
To (MitchL) you make some very interesting statements that should be looked into. Thank you for your comments
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