Imbalance

[Roman_Gabriel]

There does not appear to be a level playing field.

Xavier Catholic vs. Dowling Catholic
Bishop Heelan Catholic vs. Solon
Kuemper Catholic vs. Waukon

St. Edmund Catholic vs. Regina Catholic
West Lyon vs. B-G-M
Don Bosco Catholic vs. Exira/Elk Horn-Kimballton

 

[smallcenter]

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. We've been round and round on this topic. That said, I still maintain that if we separate out the private schools and have them play in their own class we eliminate the problem. And yes, I know that the private schools would have to travel farther and wouldn't like it.

 

[SPOONER]

In the not too distant future we will see private schools required to play up a level in all sports. That wouldn't have changed things at the 4A level this year obviously.

 

[Rose bowl or bust]

Originally posted by Roman_Gabriel:
There does not appear to be a level playing field.

Xavier Catholic vs. Dowling Catholic
Bishop Heelan Catholic vs. Solon
Kuemper Catholic vs. Waukon

St. Edmund Catholic vs. Regina Catholic
West Lyon vs. B-G-M
Don Bosco Catholic vs. Exira/Elk Horn-Kimballton

Xavier - 52nd in enrollment - should be in 3A according to size
Dowling - 21st in enrollment in 4A
Bishop Heelan - 26th in enrollment in 3A
Kuemper - 43rd in enrollment in 2A
St. Ed - 13th in enrollment in 1A
Regina - 8th in enrollment in 1A
Don Bosco - 1st in enrollment in 8-man - actually above the limit

I don't know why you say there isn't a level playing field...for the most part these schools aren't the biggest schools in their classifications. St. Ed's and Regina are up there in 1A, and Bosco is actually over in 8-man, but the rest of the schools are right in the middle or near the bottom when it comes to enrollment.

I've said it many times...the only advantage that private schools enjoy is the fact that ALL their students have parents who care about their success and are involved in their lives. Yes, the 190 kids that attend Regina are different from the 190 kids at Missouri Valley, but should the be punished because their parents are involved in their education and extra curricular activities? Isn't that what we should want?

 

[Teenage Dirtbag]

It's a little short sighted to think it's all linked to enrollment, thus the biggest school in every class should win every year right? There's a little more going on here than that. I also think the comment about "ALL private students have parents who care about their success and are involved in their lives" is a tremendous slap in the face to other parents everywhere. Sorry but not buying it. Not going to get into specifics but many of these top kids from the private schools have have had a lot of "off the field" issues both in high school and at the college level. Where were these parents then? They were apparently not involved in all of their "extra curricular activities".
The bottom line is it's kind of like people complaining about SEC teams dominating college football. The system is what it is and if you don't like it you have to find a way to beat them. But I certainly think their are a lot of great kids and great parents involved in both public and private schools - and success on the field doesn't always mean kids are being successful off the field. That has been proven.

 

[Roman_Gabriel]

Originally posted by Rose bowl or bust:

Originally posted by Roman_Gabriel:
There does not appear to be a level playing field.

Xavier Catholic vs. Dowling Catholic
Bishop Heelan Catholic vs. Solon
Kuemper Catholic vs. Waukon

St. Edmund Catholic vs. Regina Catholic
West Lyon vs. B-G-M
Don Bosco Catholic vs. Exira/Elk Horn-Kimballton

Xavier - 52nd in enrollment - should be in 3A according to size
Dowling - 21st in enrollment in 4A
Bishop Heelan - 26th in enrollment in 3A
Kuemper - 43rd in enrollment in 2A
St. Ed - 13th in enrollment in 1A
Regina - 8th in enrollment in 1A
Don Bosco - 1st in enrollment in 8-man - actually above the limit

I don't know why you say there isn't a level playing field...for the most part these schools aren't the biggest schools in their classifications. St. Ed's and Regina are up there in 1A, and Bosco is actually over in 8-man, but the rest of the schools are right in the middle or near the bottom when it comes to enrollment.

I've said it many times...the only advantage that private schools enjoy is the fact that ALL their students have parents who care about their success and are involved in their lives. Yes, the 190 kids that attend Regina are different from the 190 kids at Missouri Valley, but should the be punished because their parents are involved in their education and extra curricular activities? Isn't that what we should want?

Public schools provide an eduction for all students. It would be
interesting to see what level of Special Education students, Non English
speaking students, poverty level students these private schools have. I am
sure they have some but the BEDS document is inflated form public
schools due to populations of students that, most likely, will not be
participants either to environment or lack of resources. I would
speculate that private schools tend to have a student population that
minimal in these student populations and a population that is more
affluent than poverty level.


I believe all students should have the same opportunities.

 

[Rose bowl or bust]

Originally posted by Roman_Gabriel:

Originally posted by Rose bowl or bust:

Originally posted by Roman_Gabriel:
There does not appear to be a level playing field.

Xavier Catholic vs. Dowling Catholic
Bishop Heelan Catholic vs. Solon
Kuemper Catholic vs. Waukon

St. Edmund Catholic vs. Regina Catholic
West Lyon vs. B-G-M
Don Bosco Catholic vs. Exira/Elk Horn-Kimballton

Xavier - 52nd in enrollment - should be in 3A according to size
Dowling - 21st in enrollment in 4A
Bishop Heelan - 26th in enrollment in 3A
Kuemper - 43rd in enrollment in 2A
St. Ed - 13th in enrollment in 1A
Regina - 8th in enrollment in 1A
Don Bosco - 1st in enrollment in 8-man - actually above the limit

I don't know why you say there isn't a level playing field...for the most part these schools aren't the biggest schools in their classifications. St. Ed's and Regina are up there in 1A, and Bosco is actually over in 8-man, but the rest of the schools are right in the middle or near the bottom when it comes to enrollment.

I've said it many times...the only advantage that private schools enjoy is the fact that ALL their students have parents who care about their success and are involved in their lives. Yes, the 190 kids that attend Regina are different from the 190 kids at Missouri Valley, but should the be punished because their parents are involved in their education and extra curricular activities? Isn't that what we should want?

Public schools provide an eduction for all students. It would be
interesting to see what level of Special Education students, Non English
speaking students, poverty level students these private schools have. I am
sure they have some but the BEDS document is inflated form public
schools due to populations of students that, most likely, will not be
participants either to environment or lack of resources. I would
speculate that private schools tend to have a student population that
minimal in these student populations and a population that is more
affluent than poverty level.


I believe all students should have the same opportunities.

The disabled student population is the only one that should be taken into any consideration. ELL students are perfectly capable of playing sports...poor kids are perfectly capable of playing sports. It's up to the school and kids to get these kids involved and participating in sports.

I'm in favor of a multiplier based on the average % of special ed kids...but this would have to be broken down into kids who have reading disabilities vs. kids with down syndrome (just an example) Sounds pretty darn complicated...who is to say that a kid with autism can't count? We've all seen the clips of the kids with autism scoring points in a blow out basketball game. Hard to say how this would be set up.

 

[IAbaseball24]

This is a good read on this topic. Gives insight into what other states have tried.

http://www.athleticbusiness.com/articles/article.aspx?articleid=3938&zoneid=9

 

[SEPAlumni]

Poor kids can play sports, but are less prepared as they do not have the finances to to play Club/AAU Sports, unless they are standouts, and the Travel Teams pay for them!

They also, often times do not come from complete homes and have parents that are less interested, causing them to perform worse academically and extra curricularlly!

I would hope kids go to private schools for the religion, maybe they should go to school for the religion and then back to the home district for sports!

No matter how it is argued there is an unfair advantage to allowing kids to move between schools and private schools!

 

[smallcenter]

Originally posted by Rose bowl or bust:

Originally posted by Roman_Gabriel:

Originally posted by Rose bowl or bust:

Originally posted by Roman_Gabriel:
There does not appear to be a level playing field.

Xavier Catholic vs. Dowling Catholic
Bishop Heelan Catholic vs. Solon
Kuemper Catholic vs. Waukon

St. Edmund Catholic vs. Regina Catholic
West Lyon vs. B-G-M
Don Bosco Catholic vs. Exira/Elk Horn-Kimballton

Xavier - 52nd in enrollment - should be in 3A according to size
Dowling - 21st in enrollment in 4A
Bishop Heelan - 26th in enrollment in 3A
Kuemper - 43rd in enrollment in 2A
St. Ed - 13th in enrollment in 1A
Regina - 8th in enrollment in 1A
Don Bosco - 1st in enrollment in 8-man - actually above the limit

I don't know why you say there isn't a level playing field...for the most part these schools aren't the biggest schools in their classifications. St. Ed's and Regina are up there in 1A, and Bosco is actually over in 8-man, but the rest of the schools are right in the middle or near the bottom when it comes to enrollment.

I've said it many times...the only advantage that private schools enjoy is the fact that ALL their students have parents who care about their success and are involved in their lives. Yes, the 190 kids that attend Regina are different from the 190 kids at Missouri Valley, but should the be punished because their parents are involved in their education and extra curricular activities? Isn't that what we should want?

Public schools provide an eduction for all students. It would be
interesting to see what level of Special Education students, Non English
speaking students, poverty level students these private schools have. I am
sure they have some but the BEDS document is inflated form public
schools due to populations of students that, most likely, will not be
participants either to environment or lack of resources. I would
speculate that private schools tend to have a student population that
minimal in these student populations and a population that is more
affluent than poverty level.


I believe all students should have the same opportunities.

The disabled student population is the only one that should be taken into any consideration. ELL students are perfectly capable of playing sports...poor kids are perfectly capable of playing sports. It's up to the school and kids to get these kids involved and participating in sports.

I'm in favor of a multiplier based on the average % of special ed kids...but this would have to be broken down into kids who have reading disabilities vs. kids with down syndrome (just an example) Sounds pretty darn complicated...who is to say that a kid with autism can't count? We've all seen the clips of the kids with autism scoring points in a blow out basketball game. Hard to say how this would be set up.

Ummm, poor kids are not nearly as capable of playing sports as you think, especially in the day of youth and AAU sports. Let me run us through a few scenarios.

1. Poor kid A wants to play a little football when he's in 5th grade. He gets the sheet to take home to mom, since she is a single parent. He is extremely excited about the prospect of playing some ball and doesn't read the whole flier. Mom sits down with the kid and looks at the flier. She says, "son, I would love for you to be able to play ball this year but I just don't have the money to pay the $175 fee for equipment and all that stuff. Plus, it says that practice is from 4-6 on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. Those are the days and time that I have to work my second job, so I can't take you or pick you up, and there is no activity bus bringing kids out to our country house. I'm sorry honey, we just can't do it." So the kid doesn't get to play for two years while the other boys do. By the time 7th grade rolls around and it's a little more doable, the poor kid has heard all of the stories about how if you didn't play YSF or Pop Warner then you're wasting your time going out for middle school ball. Since he's already had a rough life full of disappointments he buys into it and never goes out.
Sad story, but it happens more often than you think.

2. Poor kid can't afford to get a private tennis coach so they will be more competitive in high school tennis. The private school kids all have them, but the poor kid with raw talent can't, and therefore never realizes even a fraction of his talent.
Another sob story, but happens more often than you think.

3. Poor goes out of football. Because he isn't in the "in crowd" that goes roller skating on weekends together, goes to all of the school dances together, heads to at least one Iowa game a year, heads to the movies every other week (because their families can afford it, while his can't) he doesn't ever feel like he is part of the team. The coach can do whatever they want, but the kid doesn't buy into the idea that he's as good as the "in kids" who are the starters. Because of this, or other stereotypes, he never cracks the lineup in middle school and doesn't pursue athletics in high school.
Happens ALL of the time.

So to say that poor kids can play sports is very short sighted. Can they play? Physically, yes. Does it happen? Not all of the time, and usually because of money reasons.

I am becoming more and more convinced that the public/private debate is a matter of socioeconomic status. You just don't see the same level of poverty in private schools that you see in the public school system. And when "poor kids" do get into the private schools there are many supports there to help give them a fighting chance.

Thirdly, and this from a conversation I once had with a superintendent, the private schools have better booster systems. Why? Because those that can afford to send their kids to private schools have money to spend on donations to the boosters. Maybe it isn't every parents writing huge checks to the boosters, but all it takes is one or two ultra successful alums writing a sizable check that creates a nice endowment. The conversation came up when a private school had fireworks (and a decent sized show) display during the halftime of their homecoming game. I asked the superintendent (jokingly) why we couldn't do the same. That was his comment back to me.

So, like I've said 600 times before, I think the only way to level the playing field is to create a separate class for private schools to play in like other states have done. The multiplier won't fix it as that just passes the buck onto someone else.

 

[pribs36]

So lets move, Valley, Urbandale, Johnston, and basically every other rich suburb of des monies and many more too a seperate class too since its all about money?

 

[JAD-Cat]

Maybe get pribs36 a spellcheck??

 

[215#]

I went to a public school and played football in Jr. High and High School and never won a football game and it never occured to me it was unfair because I never went to a football camp or had a tennis coach. I learned a ton of life lessons and have had a very successful career outside of sports. If winning is the only objective we should try to eliminate as much competition as possible. Instead of trying to find ways to get better we shouldn't have to play the best teams. Makes sense to me. ???

 

[SEPAlumni]

Silly ststement, the discussion seems to focus on wealthy private schools in smaller classes, not the 4A, that argument does not hold water, show me very wealthy, 1a-3a and they are private

 

[pribs36]

Uh Solon, Carroll, Council Bluffs, Spirit Lake, just to name a few. All have public schools that aren't 4A and all are thriving communities. Just look at the facilities of a few of them, I think they are getting plenty of donations..

 

[SPOONER]

You guys are too focused on money. This is more about conflicting goals, agendas and missions between public and private schools.

That said, I'm not leading the charge for change here. I don't have a big problem if the status quo is maintained.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Pass a.bond issue, get a new school, get a new turf field, new weight room, new practice gym. These things happened at 1A-3A schools in my area.

 

[Blacksoxs]

Here's a little story that may shed some light on this never ending debate. In my opinion this is what gives the private schools an advantage in some sports. A few years back, Davenport Assumption had somewhere around 50 boys in an incoming Freshman class. Of those 50, they had over 35 that played freshman baseball...which obviously has a great tradition at Assumption.

You usually don't see that high of a percentage at a public school (35/50). The person I was talking to also said a high percentage of students were involved in multiple other extracurricular activities. I would be willing to bet that there is a higher percentage of students involved in extracurricular activities at a private school compared to a public school. Public schools are more likely to have kids in school that do not do anything but attend classes.

Look at it from football terms. A private 2A school and a public 2A school in football would have somewhere around 35-40 boys in each grade to choose from for football. Of those numbers, I would argue that a private school would have a slight edge in the number of those boys who are interested and/or capable of playing football....the extra numbers help give private schools an advantage.


Obviously, success of a program has a lot to do with this, so you have to give the coaches credit for running a successful program (Regina, CK, Heelan, Dowling). Success of a program leads to more community support and/or more parent support for all the other things that go with that sport (lifting, camps, fundraising). Also, success of a program leads to more people wanting to be apart of it....which is why you see successful public and private schools around the state getting more "new faces" then others.

To sum it up...private schools can have an advantage number wise. Ultimately, it is what you do with those numbers that really matters.

 

[IowaTopScout]

Let's be honest...this will be a hot topic until they do it right with the private schools....but that is not going to happen. I went to a private school and we had the creme de la creme and a lot of that had to do with tuition and of course "ENCOURAGING" students to come play at our school. I would say that some schools do not recruit...oops I meant "ENCOURAGE" kids to come play for them but most of them do and that is a fact. I could have gone to a number of public schools in our area but there was a group of parents that wanted us to stay together and make a run in basketball so we stayed together at a private school. I thoroughly agree with the post that public schools take into consideration a lot of different types of students and I'll leave it at that....but private schools get top notch kids MOST of the time. I would like to see private schools play up a class or in a perfect world have their own class but that is impossible so don't hack me on that comment. There are a lot of things wrong with this state and their unions for boys and girls athletics but until they merge unions then we will never see any change. Let's face it...the RED COATS love their traditions! (check the basketball state tournament for the red coats)

 

[HaydenHawk8]

This is not that big of an issue. The reason these schools are successful is because of their great coaching staffs and their support from the families. They do not recruit, I went to a Catholic high school and our coaches never recruited. They always challenged us to go above and beyond what was expected of us. They would push us beyond our breaking point a lot of the times and it made us stronger. If you complained, guess what you got extra laps or extra push-ups. The coaches would push and push and push us until we got it right. I'm sorry but at the public schools you hear of coaches getting fired because they "swore" at the student athletes or made them run extra because they ran their mouth on twitter or Facebook. Private schools you do not have that issue, because the coaches will push you to become better and you understand why they are pushing you.

I will say this I have witnessed a lot of high school football in the past 10 years and the one underlying factor is flat out coaching. You see teams like Regina, Xavier, and even Assumption play with the larger schools. The only reason they are so successful is because of their coaching and their ability to mold even average student athletes into great players. They do not recruit or call people to come to their school. They work with these kids when their young and build them up. Its not rocket science.

 

[Herdcyclones]

I think it generally comes down to home life in elementary/middle school. Those are the formative years for athletics. What percentage of kids at Regina or St Eds right now live in a 1 parent home? What percentage at Carroll High or Council Bluffs TJ? I coached non school sports for my kid 8th grade and below. 90% of my best players had married parents. When little Johnny doesn't have dad out playing catch when he is 7 or 8, little Johnny is going to be a step below his buddies. Little Johnny shows up at practice right at the start time, and is not loosening up, taking extra shots or throwing the extra 15 minutes that the other kids when they show up early because mom isn't working long hours at her job.

It doesn't mean divorced or never married parents or their kids are bad people. But kids from those types of homes tend to be at a disadvantage at the earlier ages. Which means they play less in whatever sport when they are 9 or 12 or whatever. Then they give up the game in HS, when they may have been a positive contributor.

I know there are kids of divorced parents at the Catholic schools. And I know they play sports. And I can't do a survey, but I'd like to ask every Kuemper starter if their mom and dad were married when they were 10. Then I'd like to ask that of the starters for say, Greene County, kinda right next door. I bet there is a noticeable difference.

Carry it to wrestling. DM Hoover and North, two 4A schools, have to share a wrestling program. Why is that?

I really think it comes down to greater parental involvement and financial resources for kids that go to Catholic/private schools. I don't think it is necessarily unfair to kids in public schools and I don't think we should make those private schools play up. It is what it is, just like life.

 

[pribs36]

There are plenty of kids at private schools with divorced parents, and I don't really see how that affects a kid as an athlete. A single parent makes more sense but you look at many of the college and professional stars and there are probably more who grew up without a dad then did, so I mean it is an argument but I don't think it is the main reason. Good parent support is definitely an advantage for any child in anything they do growing up.

 

[SEPAlumni]

We are not talking about Wealthy Communities, do not confuse tax base with income, we are talking about financial situations with families!

Private Schools attract great coaches, that seems to be an overstatement, someone break down the skill positions @ Dowling/Regina, when did those kids enroll in those schools and how are the programs at the schools they came from?

 

[SEPAlumni]

Dixon-Regina-171 for 1309, when did he start the Catholic System and Where di he come from?

Drew Cook-Same thing

Ryan Boyle @ Dowling

Trenton Solsma @ Heelan

 

[DarkThunder#61]

Originally posted by SEPAlumni:
Dixon-Regina-171 for 1309, when did he start the Catholic System and Where di he come from?

Drew Cook-Same thing

Ryan Boyle @ Dowling

Trenton Solsma @ Heelan

Wait, what?

And if I'm understanding what you're asking correctly, then.....

Originally posted by SEPAlumni:

Drew Cook-Same thing

Not sure if serious?

 

[DarkThunder#61]

Originally posted by smallcenter:


So, like I've said 600 times before, I think the only way to level the playing field is to create a separate class for private schools to play in like other states have done. The multiplier won't fix it as that just passes the buck onto someone else.

Actually, smallcenter, I think the correct solution to this whole problem is to have EVERYBODY become a private school. Then we can all be the same and have the same advantages!!!

But really though as for what you think is the "only way to level the playing field", I'm gonna give you a list of schools that would rather tell anyone who thinks that's the only way to gtfo.

LeMars Gehlen
Bishop Garrigan
Don Bosco, Gilbertville
Notre Dame Burlington
Fairfield Maharishi
Mason City Newman
Des Moines Christian
Remsen St. Mary's
Storm Lake St. Mary's
Granville, Spalding (if they still have athletics and didn't consolidate)
Cedar Valley Christian
Ankeny Christian
Iowa Mennonite
Bellevue Marquette
Hull Trinity
Fort Madison Trinity
DM Grandview Park Baptist (I'm assuming they're private....)
Clinton Prince of Peace
Siouxland Christian
Valley Lutheran
Waterloo Christian
WDM Iowa Christian
Heartland Christian

And I'm probably missing a few others in the smaller classes.....but yeah, they'd basically tell you in the politest of ways to take your idea and shove it somewhere you couldn't pull it back out of.

Here's the 5 biggest private schools in Iowa:

1. Dowling, WDM- 1,075
2. CR Xavier- 536
3. Dubuque Wahlert- 423
4. SC Bishop Heelan- 402
5. Davenport Assumption- 359

The next biggest is 2A Dyersville Beckman- 248

....So I'm gonna go ahead and say (no) to your idea.

 

[matomicmasher]

Roman_Gabriel, Smallcenter and other whiners,

I agree with you completely.
The obvious answer is to simply stop athletics at public schools. The dismal athletes at those schools after the good athletes have all gone to Catholic school makes public school athletics a waste of time and money.

 

[smallcenter]

Originally posted by DarkThunder#61:

Originally posted by smallcenter:


So, like I've said 600 times before, I think the only way to level the playing field is to create a separate class for private schools to play in like other states have done. The multiplier won't fix it as that just passes the buck onto someone else.

Actually, smallcenter, I think the correct solution to this whole problem is to have EVERYBODY become a private school. Then we can all be the same and have the same advantages!!!

But really though as for what you think is the "only way to level the playing field", I'm gonna give you a list of schools that would rather tell anyone who thinks that's the only way to gtfo.

LeMars Gehlen
Bishop Garrigan
Don Bosco, Gilbertville
Notre Dame Burlington
Fairfield Maharishi
Mason City Newman
Des Moines Christian
Remsen St. Mary's
Storm Lake St. Mary's
Granville, Spalding (if they still have athletics and didn't consolidate)
Cedar Valley Christian
Ankeny Christian
Iowa Mennonite
Bellevue Marquette
Hull Trinity
Fort Madison Trinity
DM Grandview Park Baptist (I'm assuming they're private....)
Clinton Prince of Peace
Siouxland Christian
Valley Lutheran
Waterloo Christian
WDM Iowa Christian
Heartland Christian

And I'm probably missing a few others in the smaller classes.....but yeah, they'd basically tell you in the politest of ways to take your idea and shove it somewhere you couldn't pull it back out of.

Here's the 5 biggest private schools in Iowa:

1. Dowling, WDM- 1,075
2. CR Xavier- 536
3. Dubuque Wahlert- 423
4. SC Bishop Heelan- 402
5. Davenport Assumption- 359

The next biggest is 2A Dyersville Beckman- 248

....So I'm gonna go ahead and say (no) to your idea.

Do you just chase me around the boards looking for my attention?

 

[Teenage Dirtbag]

So if the greatest resource at private schools is "great parenting" and "great coaches" can someone explain why none of these schools won a volleyball championship? Are the parents of girls just not as involved in their lives? Do they not get the top coaches for less popular sports? Do they not try to recruit players as much in the less popular sports? Not being a smart-aleck, just asking why are they dominant in football and yet parents can't seem to get the job done in other sports? I would think parenting would carry over into all sports.

 

[DarkThunder#61]

Originally posted by smallcenter:

Originally posted by DarkThunder#61:

Originally posted by smallcenter:


So, like I've said 600 times before, I think the only way to level the playing field is to create a separate class for private schools to play in like other states have done. The multiplier won't fix it as that just passes the buck onto someone else.

Actually, smallcenter, I think the correct solution to this whole problem is to have EVERYBODY become a private school. Then we can all be the same and have the same advantages!!!

But really though as for what you think is the "only way to level the playing field", I'm gonna give you a list of schools that would rather tell anyone who thinks that's the only way to gtfo.

LeMars Gehlen
Bishop Garrigan
Don Bosco, Gilbertville
Notre Dame Burlington
Fairfield Maharishi
Mason City Newman
Des Moines Christian
Remsen St. Mary's
Storm Lake St. Mary's
Granville, Spalding (if they still have athletics and didn't consolidate)
Cedar Valley Christian
Ankeny Christian
Iowa Mennonite
Bellevue Marquette
Hull Trinity
Fort Madison Trinity
DM Grandview Park Baptist (I'm assuming they're private....)
Clinton Prince of Peace
Siouxland Christian
Valley Lutheran
Waterloo Christian
WDM Iowa Christian
Heartland Christian

And I'm probably missing a few others in the smaller classes.....but yeah, they'd basically tell you in the politest of ways to take your idea and shove it somewhere you couldn't pull it back out of.

Here's the 5 biggest private schools in Iowa:

1. Dowling, WDM- 1,075
2. CR Xavier- 536
3. Dubuque Wahlert- 423
4. SC Bishop Heelan- 402
5. Davenport Assumption- 359

The next biggest is 2A Dyersville Beckman- 248

....So I'm gonna go ahead and say (no) to your idea.

Do you just chase me around the boards looking for my attention?

No, my post would be the same if it were anyone else......it's just that you happened to make the post, and I am familiar with your ways.

But your lack of a reply means I have a point........unless you'd like to claim that you weren't being serious. I forgot to include that option in my first post.

 

[smallcenter]

No buddy, I'm just sick of dealing with you so I am trying not to respond to your comments. Hence why I left things alone in the 1A board. Haven't even looked to see what you had to say over there in response to my last post. And yes, I know making a separate class would hurt small private schools. I'm not a complete idiot. I prefaced that the first time around.

I realize we're to the point that no matter what we say we are going to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. So my final comment to you on this matter will be this. Does it not seem a little bit odd the frequency of private school finals appearances in proportion to their representation in the class.

Examples: 3A 40 championships decided, 11 times were there private schools in those games. That's about 28% give or take. Are 28% of the school in 3A private? I think that number is close to 10% or less.

2A 8 of 40 championship games included a private school. That's 20%. What percent do the privates represent in 2A?

4A 19 of the 40 championship games included private schools. That's just shy of 50%.

Maybe it's not for the reasons that I mentioned, but there is definitely a reason that private schools are able to find success at a rate disproportionate to the rest of their public school counterparts.

 

[DarkThunder#61]

Originally posted by smallcenter:
No buddy, I'm just sick of dealing with you so I am trying not to respond to your comments.

Hence why I left things alone in the 1A board. Haven't even looked to see what you had to say over there in response to my last post. Thumbs high. And yes, I know making a separate class would hurt small private schools. I'm not a complete idiot. I prefaced that the first time around. And yet you think it's the only way to fix your issue with private schools? Now I really question if you're being serious...oh wait there's more!

I realize we're to the point that no matter what we say we are going to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. Oh well I think you can do something to change that. So my final comment to you on this matter will be this. Does it not seem a little bit odd the frequency of private school finals appearances in proportion to their representation in the class? No. And again if you'd read my posts instead of scoffing because you're set in your own ways, these last two years were the first time there's ever been more than 3 private schools in the championship round. 2 are first-timers. But wait!!! You saved the best for last!


Examples: 3A 40 championships decided, 11 times were there private schools in those games. That's about 28% give or take. Are 28% of the school in 3A private? I think that number is close to 10% or less. Did you bother to look at the names of the schools? This would save me a lot of having to repeat myself in your next couple of paragraphs but.......
Heelan appears quite frequently don't they. So does Harlan. There's a CR private school that consolidated and became Xavier and moved to 4A, so you can't use them.

2A 8 of 40 championship games included a private school. That's 20%. What percent do the privates represent in 2A? How many different teams make up those 8? 2 or 3?

4A 19 of the 40 championship games included private schools. That's just shy of 50%. Yeah....Dowling and Heelan. Xavier twice. That's it.

Maybe it's not for the reasons that I mentioned, but there is definitely a reason that certain private schools are able to find success at a rate disproportionate to the rest of their public school counterparts. Yeah the same as how Emmetsburg and Harlan and Valley get to the championship game at a disproportionate rate compared to the rest of their counterparts.....

That whole last part in your post is an old argument in this debate. One that's pretty much been debunked for a while now.

But if this bothers you so much, fine, you can walk away. Of course nothing gets fixed then, but hey at least you got your complaint to be heard on these message boards.

P.S. I remember now what I used to always ask when it came to these debates. What was it, specifically, that got you set in your ways regarding this debate? Did you just read up on some stuff, and coming from a public school background, you felt that public schools were getting a raw deal? Or are you more directly involved? (say for example, you're a public school coach and you're not gonna take it anymore, as far as watching public schools always getting dominated by a certain group of private schools.....)
Anything like that, or do you have your own story?

I remember, I used to ask that to understand how people formed their ideas on this issue........................and rarely did anyone respond to that question.

People are the problem, I guess.

(To use an example, it'd be like me asking 15 people why they're proud to be an American and 13 of them, for their response, tell me which party of the government they hate and what is wrong with them, usually in-depth.)

I can't work with that.....

 

[MepoDawg#]

If you want to be the best them you must beat the best. It sounds like some public school fans are whining. Who cares if private schools are doing well right now. A lot of those schools haven't been good forever. My high school team used to best Regina all the time in the 90's. People act like the private schools have won every championship and are the only ones to make the playoffs every year. Class 2A last year Mepo beat Beckman and Spirit Lake beat Kuemper in the semis. Mepo got knocked out of the playoffs the 2 previous years by Regina. Did they complain? No, in fact Mepo's coach out Regina on his list of teams to try to play the last 2 years. Would have been a heck of a game last year. If public schools don't like it them they should train harder an get better coaches. It starts with youth football, good coaches, family and community support, good facilities. Mepo hasn't had a problem the last few years. Now they're taking advantage of it and building a new sports complex with turf and starting a soccer program in the spring. The kids have to buy in as well and work hard while staying out of trouble. Just quit complaining because it'll never change to a all private school league. And if they do a multiplier some will still complain. Grow up and focus on bettering your team, players and school not trying to bring others down to your level.

 

[smallcenter]

thunder-Fair enough, I can answer that. Yes, I do coach. Not at the varsity level any more. I think my opinion started forming when I was in college, especially, and it didn't start with football. It actually started with Xavier basketball. What was happening was Xavier was staying in the 3A, but essentially playing a 4A schedule. It always peeved me that a team could play what amounted to be a 4A schedule because they were in the metro, but then drop down to 3A for the tourney. I guess, to me, it was kind of like the going to play in the pros, and then coming back for the college bowl game. Not the same level of competition. Also, tennis. I did not play, but I had a brother that was pretty decent. He worked hard, along with his partner. But in the world of tennis Wahlert and Columbus reign supreme every year. You'd hear the stories about how their guys were working with pros year round, and how Illinois kids were crossing the river to go to Wahlert etc. The year round lessons with pros wasn't an option for my bro. Not that we couldn't afford it, but the nearest club that would have a tennis pro was 1 1/2 away.

So that's probably where it all started and it has just spread to football. Since it is football season that's what I talk about. Anyway, hope that is a better answer to your question.

 

[DarkThunder#61]

Originally posted by smallcenter:
thunder-Fair enough, I can answer that. Yes, I do coach. Not at the varsity level any more. I think my opinion started forming when I was in college, especially, and it didn't start with football. It actually started with Xavier basketball. What was happening was Xavier was staying in the 3A, but essentially playing a 4A schedule. It always peeved me that a team could play what amounted to be a 4A schedule because they were in the metro, but then drop down to 3A for the tourney. I guess, to me, it was kind of like the going to play in the pros, and then coming back for the college bowl game. Not the same level of competition. Also, tennis. I did not play, but I had a brother that was pretty decent. He worked hard, along with his partner. But in the world of tennis Wahlert and Columbus reign supreme every year. You'd hear the stories about how their guys were working with pros year round, and how Illinois kids were crossing the river to go to Wahlert etc. The year round lessons with pros wasn't an option for my bro. Not that we couldn't afford it, but the nearest club that would have a tennis pro was 1 1/2 away.

So that's probably where it all started and it has just spread to football. Since it is football season that's what I talk about. Anyway, hope that is a better answer to your question.

Yeah that's fine.

Though to your first point, that's not a private school problem. That's a "what kind of program are you" problem. I take the same issue with Davenport Assumption. Their girls bball program dominates their conference and then they go down to face 3A competition and run amuck. If you're trying to be a 4A program...be a 4A program. Don't pretend to be one and then use the excuse, "yeah but we're really a 3A program" come tournament time.

That has little to do with being a private school.

Des Moines Christian plays a 1A/2A schedule in bball, and while their enrollment qualifies them for 1A ball, they choose to play 2A come tournament time because they want to be a 2A program.

 

[MepoDawg#]

Am I reading this right? You think that teams that play up in competition should have to play up because they challenged themselves during the season. There are teams that consistently play teams from different classes to play better competition. It helps prepare them for late postseason games. Any school can do this to a certain extent. Mepo played 3 teams from 3 different class the last two years in football, none of which are in their class. Volleyball travels to 4A and 5A tournaments, should they play up then or down because they also play some 1A in conference even through they are 3A. Wrestling wrestles vs 1A, 2A, and 3A. Which class should they be in come postseason time? You can't force teams up because they play up in competition and win for an extended period of time. Others teams should just get better if they don't like losing. It's like getting mad at an opposing football team for scoring when up 50 and they have freshmen playing against other teams varsity and just running up the middle. Thing is, if you don't like it, stop them from scoring.

 

[DarkThunder#61]

Originally posted by MepoDawg#:
Am I reading this right? You think that teams that play up in competition should have to play up because they challenged themselves during the season. There are teams that consistently play teams from different classes to play better competition. It helps prepare them for late postseason games. Any school can do this to a certain extent. Mepo played 3 teams from 3 different class the last two years in football, none of which are in their class. Volleyball travels to 4A and 5A tournaments, should they play up then or down because they also play some 1A in conference even through they are 3A. Wrestling wrestles vs 1A, 2A, and 3A. Which class should they be in come postseason time? You can't force teams up because they play up in competition and win for an extended period of time. Others teams should just get better if they don't like losing. It's like getting mad at an opposing football team for scoring when up 50 and they have freshmen playing against other teams varsity and just running up the middle. Thing is, if you don't like it, stop them from scoring.

I think you're missing the point. It's specific cases that I'm talking about here for specific sports.

We'll start with this fact. There's a pretty distinct line for 4A and 3A programs. If Assumption claims that they're part of an all-4A conference and they dominate that conference, then why shouldn't they continue to play 4A teams come tournament time?

If you want a more dramatic and over-exaggerated hypothetical example (so please work with me here....), Mediapolis is 2A. Went 9-0 in their 2A district. But they have 1A enrollment so they can drop down and play in the 1A playoffs. You think that's fine?

 

[MepoDawg#]

I would be ok with it as it follows the rules but I would prefer them to play in 2A. However, if you force a team to play up then you're punishing them because they're to good. I would hope that they would want to play up but don't blame them for playing in their true classification. I've always believed to be the best then beat the best. If that is playing up then fine, but schools shouldn't be blasted or called cheaters because they don't play up or are a private school. And let's be serious, so called "recruiting" isn't confined to private schools. I know plenty of instances that families/coaches worked the system to be involved in a sport at a better program that are public. It happens everywhere.

 

[DarkThunder#61]

Originally posted by MepoDawg#:
I would be ok with it as it follows the rules but I would prefer them to play in 2A. However, if you force a team to play up then you're punishing them because they're to good. I would hope that they would want to play up but don't blame them for playing in their true classification. I've always believed to be the best then beat the best. If that is playing up then fine, but schools shouldn't be blasted or called cheaters because they don't play up or are a private school. And let's be serious, so called "recruiting" isn't confined to private schools. I know plenty of instances that families/coaches worked the system to be involved in a sport at a better program that are public. It happens everywhere.

But they're not playing "up", figuratively speaking. They're playing against teams of the same class of teams they faced all year. That wouldn't be punishing them.

It's also why I said it's case by case, because I understand there are circumstances where if a program is just plain bad (let's say Assumption is as bad or worse than their public school counterparts and can't find 2 wins on their 4A schedule each year), then it would be punishing them to "force" them to play up because they belong to a 4A conference when they have 3A enrollment. Playing to their correct class per enrollment would be fair in that case. Also if that were the case, I'd even venture to guess Assumption would eventually look at finding a more appropriate conference relative to their size.

But from a competitive standpoint, the fact is Assumption has built their program to compete at a 4A level against 4A teams game-in and game-out, year-in and year-out. So why drop down come tournament time? Nobody is calling them cheaters. It just seems unnecessary to play down.

Going back to DM Christian, if they struggled greatly with their 1A/2A schedule and opted to go 1A, then nobody would have an issue. But they've been pretty successful over the years in their conference and they want to be a 2A program even if enrollment suggests otherwise. They play up because they believe they can compete against 2A teams (granted that has often come back to bite them come substate and state).

 

[RoundMound1]

Perhaps the point that not enough people are arguing is what will happen if/when Assumption and Xavier play football to their respective BEDS-based classes (Assumption 2A and Xavier 3A). Sounds like with the dissolving on all 4A conferences and a move to districts in the near future this could be a real possibility. How would that change the discussion of "fair" or "level playing field"?