Idiotic change to postseason basketball seeding

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

http://qctimes.com/sports/high-scho...cle_dfc506b3-f725-5758-ac95-178eddc8f0e6.html


Instead of finding a solution to the lack of parity in Iowa boys' basketball by adding a multiple or a fifth class , the IHSAA decided to send a message to the state: Wins and losses don't matter! Get this. They are going to have the coaches rank the other teams in the bracket and then seed them based on how the coaches feel. So now, the private schools can guarantee themselves a high seed at state even if they are below .500. You'll have 8-loss teams ranked ahead of 1-loss teams. And hey, this isn't just going to be at state. They are going to do it for the substate brackets as well. Want home court advantage? Well, last year you actually had to WIN to get the top seed, but this year you just have to rank yourself high enough to give you a few extra points.

This was the ONE thing the IHSAA had over the IGHSAU. The fact that wins actually counted for something. I don't understand how these guys can consistently mess things up. Look for the state tournament in 2017 to be even more of a joke than it has been in the last three years.

 

[LukeFeddersen]

Hmmm. So record should be the #1 thing regardless? I think it is a good thing but there will definitely be some mad coaches.

 

[cidhawkeye]

http://qctimes.com/sports/high-scho...cle_dfc506b3-f725-5758-ac95-178eddc8f0e6.html


Instead of finding a solution to the lack of parity in Iowa boys' basketball by adding a multiple or a fifth class , the IHSAA decided to send a message to the state: Wins and losses don't matter! Get this. They are going to have the coaches rank the other teams in the bracket and then seed them based on how the coaches feel. So now, the private schools can guarantee themselves a high seed at state even if they are below .500. You'll have 8-loss teams ranked ahead of 1-loss teams. And hey, this isn't just going to be at state. They are going to do it for the substate brackets as well. Want home court advantage? Well, last year you actually had to WIN to get the top seed, but this year you just have to rank yourself high enough to give you a few extra points.

This was the ONE thing the IHSAA had over the IGHSAU. The fact that wins actually counted for something. I don't understand how these guys can consistently mess things up. Look for the state tournament in 2017 to be even more of a joke than it has been in the last three years.

I am not sure of the details but this would seem to be a disadvantage to the private schools. If I read it correctly the 8 coaches will seed things. If there are 7 publics and a private do you think the private will get the benefit of the seed? As far as the rest of your commentary the multiplier hasn't really been shown to work in the few states it has been put in.

 

[Herdcyclones]

From my understanding, the point of giving it to the coaches is that they have a better local knowledge of what is going on than the Association. Coaches can take in account that a stud was injured, or suspended, and that a team may be better than its win/loss record. Or maybe a 2A team has a poor record and plays in a primarily 3A conference, or the flip side, a 2A has a stellar record playing primarily 1A schools.

I gather coaches can't vote for themselves, they just rank everybody else. Could there be collusion? I suppose. Everybody bitches about "the boys in Boone". Well it looks like "the boys in Boone" gave away some of their own power. Maybe it won't work, but I think it is worth a shot.

 

[SSG T]

So basically, they are saying that it's possible that a school that is 12-9 but plays in a tough conference against a few teams in a bigger class might be better than a team that is 18-4 but plays in a weaker conference against a few teams in a smaller class?

I'm down with that. It might not be perfect, but it can't be worse than basing seeding on 11 games in the middle of the season against completely different competition.

 

[sarcastico]

I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out next season. It will definitely make things more interesting. I am sure people will complain because some people always complain. But it is nice to see the association changing things up and trying something new.

 

[brewcrewman1]

Slowly but surely the good old boys club is being weeded out in Boone. Nice to see that they are willing to try and think outside the box for a change. We saw this the past 2 years with how pairings are being set in the Football Playoffs. Not perfect but way better than what had been in effect. Let's hope this basketball change is for the better also. It is worth a 2 year trial and then go from there. If it works expect it to happen in baseball also.

 

[wolverine55]

I am not sure of the details but this would seem to be a disadvantage to the private schools. If I read it correctly the 8 coaches will seed things. If there are 7 publics and a private do you think the private will get the benefit of the seed? As far as the rest of your commentary the multiplier hasn't really been shown to work in the few states it has been put in.

Yes, the private would get the benefit of an appropriate seed, because if a school is seeded a couple spots lower than it should be, it's not really that school getting screwed. Who's really getting screwed are the other higher seeds who then may have to play that team earlier than they should.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Yes, the private would get the benefit of an appropriate seed, because if a school is seeded a couple spots lower than it should be, it's not really that school getting screwed. Who's really getting screwed are the other higher seeds who then may have to play that team earlier than they should.

It can be turned around any way you want, if they get the higher seed it's because they are the privates, lower seed is unfair as well. Reminds me of a Barry Sobel routine.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

I am not sure of the details but this would seem to be a disadvantage to the private schools. If I read it correctly the 8 coaches will seed things. If there are 7 publics and a private do you think the private will get the benefit of the seed? As far as the rest of your commentary the multiplier hasn't really been shown to work in the few states it has been put in.

The private schools get the advantage because it's always those 2-3 private schools that have 4A talent and 4A schedules and still play in 3A. The only thing keeping them even close to in check is that they have to play three good teams because they always get a lower seed. Now they're going to be the top ranked teams every single year and so they'll basically get byes into the semifinal rounds.

I don't understand how you could be a member of the IHSAA and see the obvious lack of parity in high school basketball and then go out and rig the tournament even more for the schools who recruit and play in 4A conferences. Is there a way we could just dump the IHSAA and get a new governing body? One with common sense? I'm usually not one to rip on the IHSAA but they seem to find new ways to screw things up every year without ever addressing any problems.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

Hmmm. So record should be the #1 thing regardless? I think it is a good thing but there will definitely be some mad coaches.

Yes. It's a postseason tournament. Win-loss record should at least count for something. If they want to do it like baseball where 4A win = 4 points and 3A win = 3 points etc... and then just divide the number of games? Fine. But just letting coaches rank teams higher because they "feel" like they should be higher than their record shows? Ridiculous. Why even play your regular season then? This makes the regular season completely obsolete.

 

[cidhawkeye]

So we have a proposal for a new governing body, any additional suggestions?

 

[sarcastico]

Yes. It's a postseason tournament. Win-loss record should at least count for something. If they want to do it like baseball where 4A win = 4 points and 3A win = 3 points etc... and then just divide the number of games? Fine. But just letting coaches rank teams higher because they "feel" like they should be higher than their record shows? Ridiculous. Why even play your regular season then? This makes the regular season completely obsolete.

Good point. I can see schools not playing any regular season games only to then make it to state where they will then be given a 1 seed simply because they are a private school. I am glad someone finally has some common sense about this. Maybe we should just let you govern all Iowa sports. With such a level headed approach I am certain you could fix the plethora of problems paralyzing Iowa High School Athletics.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Good point. I can see schools not playing any regular season games only to then make it to state where they will then be given a 1 seed simply because they are a private school. I am glad someone finally has some common sense about this. Maybe we should just let you govern all Iowa sports. With such a level headed approach I am certain you could fix the plethora of problems paralyzing Iowa High School Athletics.

Or they could take their junior high team and have them play in a 4A conference all season long so they can dominate everyone during tournament play, disregard that their tallest player is 5'9" they played in a 4A conference all year.

 

[wolverine55]

I guess I'm not sure why there is such an assumption that the coaches will do a bad job with this? For the record, IL has had coaches seed the postseason for years and there are very rarely any seed controversies of any kind...

 

[Herdcyclones]

Give the man a chance.

 

[Bulldog198240]

All you have to do is look at how Wahlert and Chariton were ranked at state for 3A...reason for the change.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

All you have to do is look at how Wahlert and Chariton were ranked at state for 3A...reason for the change.

Are you serious? NO that's not the change that needs to be made. Wahlert should be in 4A. THAT'S the change that should be made. Take Wahlert and Xavier out of the equation and the seeding was fine. What, are they supposed to change the rules every time a 1 seed gets beat by a 4/5 seed?

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

Slowly but surely the good old boys club is being weeded out in Boone. Nice to see that they are willing to try and think outside the box for a change. We saw this the past 2 years with how pairings are being set in the Football Playoffs. Not perfect but way better than what had been in effect. Let's hope this basketball change is for the better also. It is worth a 2 year trial and then go from there. If it works expect it to happen in baseball also.

I don't think the "good old boys club" is getting weeded out at all. It seems like the schools that always benefit are benefiting even more.

And I totally disagree with the football pairings thing. I thought that was a disaster for both years they did it. Isn't that why they scrapped the whole thing?

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone right now. How are you guys so against the team with the best record having the highest seed?

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out next season. It will definitely make things more interesting. I am sure people will complain because some people always complain. But it is nice to see the association changing things up and trying something new.

It won't make things more interesting at all. The teams that recruit (Wahlert, Xavier, other privates) will just win even easier because they'll get the top seeds. How would it make it more interesting in any way?

 

[cidhawkeye]

Sniff...sniff....my team can't build a solid program...even with the ability to go and recruit kids to go to school for free....wait the school gets paid for OE kids. It's all the evil private schools ruining things. Better keep lobbying the boy$ in Boone, they have made some changes that many didn't see coming, the time may be ripe to retire your crying towel and 'level the playing field'

 

[WSC72]

I like the idea. A teams record is determined by many factors, best record does not always mean best team.

A question for you Neverreadthetermsofservice, how would you address the constant private school question.

 

[sarcastico]

It won't make things more interesting at all. The teams that recruit (Wahlert, Xavier, other privates) will just win even easier because they'll get the top seeds. How would it make it more interesting in any way?

Haha, really? You really can't comprehend how coaches seeding the teams will be interesting? Or are you just being willfully obtuse so you can continue to go on your little tirades about private schools? I think we all know the answer. I'm not getting into that with you, it just isn't worth my time.

 

[wolverine55]

I realize it's really only one poster pushing this, but the point on records and "wins not mattering" is way overblown. Could some coaches decide that a 16-5 team is worthy of a higher seed than an 18-3 team because of a difference in strength of schedule? Sure. Would they put a 5-16 team over an 18-3 team for the same reason? Uh, no....

 

[wolverine55]

So basically, they are saying that it's possible that a school that is 12-9 but plays in a tough conference against a few teams in a bigger class might be better than a team that is 18-4 but plays in a weaker conference against a few teams in a smaller class?

I'm down with that. It might not be perfect, but it can't be worse than basing seeding on 11 games in the middle of the season against completely different competition.

I missed this post my first time through the thread weeks ago. I completely agree. Using only games 5-15 (7-17? whatever it was) for seed purposes was honestly one of the most asinine things I had ever heard of.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

I like the idea. A teams record is determined by many factors, best record does not always mean best team.

A question for you Neverreadthetermsofservice, how would you address the constant private school question.

Well then do what baseball does and give someone 4 points for a 4A win, 3 for a 3A win etc...

I would just put in a multiplier, that would solve a lot of the problem. Wish there were more privates so they could just have their own league, honestly. It's a total sham that recruited all-star teams are on the same level as the kids who go to public schools.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

I realize it's really only one poster pushing this, but the point on records and "wins not mattering" is way overblown. Could some coaches decide that a 16-5 team is worthy of a higher seed than an 18-3 team because of a difference in strength of schedule? Sure. Would they put a 5-16 team over an 18-3 team for the same reason? Uh, no....

Absolutely some coaches would put a .500 team over a 3 loss team if the .500 team is Wahlert and the 3 loss team is some small public school.

And I might be the only poster pushing this, but this board has like 5 posters all together. I guarantee there will be public outcry in the winter when parents/fans see the rule.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

Sniff...sniff....my team can't build a solid program...even with the ability to go and recruit kids to go to school for free....wait the school gets paid for OE kids. It's all the evil private schools ruining things. Better keep lobbying the boy$ in Boone, they have made some changes that many didn't see coming, the time may be ripe to retire your crying towel and 'level the playing field'

Lol are you suggesting the public schools just recruit too? Oh, brother. Arguing with private school parents is like arguing with a brick wall. I guess when your kids have to do less work and have trophies handed to them, you don't want anything to change.

I'm not surprised at all that the "boys in Boone" decided to give the privates another boost. I guess Wahlert and Xavier didn't beat up on the public schools enough in the playoffs this year. Better rig away to make sure they get higher seeds next year.

If I'm coaching a 3A tournament team, I'm getting a hold of every other coach and making sure we all vote Wahlert and Xavier #4 and #5. Then they have to face each other in the first round. That would really piss off the association.

 

[WSC72]

What would your multiplier number be termsofservice?

I'm assuming you are talking a multiplier on private school students.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

Haha, really? You really can't comprehend how coaches seeding the teams will be interesting? Or are you just being willfully obtuse so you can continue to go on your little tirades about private schools? I think we all know the answer. I'm not getting into that with you, it just isn't worth my time.

If you're "not getting into it" then why did you even comment?

I'll walk back my comment a bit. It makes it "interesting" because it's a new ripple, but it won't make the bracket more interesting. You can't deny it will just bump the private all-star teams up a few spots. The goal here is to make the privates #1 and #2 so they can get the easiest rode possible, instead of making them earn it by actually winning games during the regular season.

 

[WSC72]

Also termsofservice how would you deal with public schools who have a significant number of open enrollees in specific sports?

Would you treat private schools like Storm Lake St Mary's or Remsen St Mary's the same way you treat Regina?

How do you bump Dowling up a class?

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

What would your multiplier number be termsofservice?

I'm assuming you are talking a multiplier on private school students.

I mean, if it was up to me I'd say a 200% multiplier (double the enrollment number). That would at least bump the schools that just feast on recruited players (Xavier, Wahlert, Regina, etc..) up a class. As I've said before on this board, I don't know why the private schools wouldn't want that. If you're on an all-star team, why wouldn't you want to play against the top teams in the state? Enrollment numbers of the school are pointless when it's just a bunch of kids who bailed on their original school to play sports on a super team.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

Also termsofservice how would you deal with public schools who have a significant number of open enrollees in specific sports?

Would you treat private schools like Storm Lake St Mary's or Remsen St Mary's the same way you treat Regina?

How do you bump Dowling up a class?

All private schools recruit. They have to, but that's just a reality. Maybe if you want to get complicated with it, you could lower the multiplier for schools who don't pull from the bigger cities.

And 4A teams don't benefit as much. A 3A school can keep its enrollment down to a 3A/2A/1A level all while having an all-star team (if you recruit 5 stud basketball players, that still only bumps your enrollment by 5). Private schools that are already in the best class aren't a problem. If you look at the 4A postseason, it's pretty competitive. It's not a joke like a lot of sports in the lower classes are.

 

[WSC72]

So, you are basically telling the majority of private schools "sorry we are bumping you up a class, possibly 2 and you now have 0 chance to ever qualify for state.

 

[NeverReadTheTermsOfService]

So, you are basically telling the majority of private schools "sorry we are bumping you up a class, possibly 2 and you now have 0 chance to ever qualify for state.

They have plenty chance to qualify for state. Do you realize the over-population of private schools in state brackets considering how low of a percentage they make up?

 

[WSC72]

I have extremely good knowledge in that area, with pages of stats backing it up.

Name the private schools who dominate on a regular basis.

Then list all the private schools in the state.

Now, 2 questions.

Of those private schools that dominate. How many would still be highly successful moving up a class? Most if not all.

Of those who are not currently dominating, what do you think their chances of ever being competitive in the tournament series would be?

As far as the big schools being pretty competitive you might want to look at 4A football where I believe 10 titles have been won by private schools (or Bettendorf who many argue recruit pretty hard in football) in the last 16 years.

 

[WSC72]

Here is another question or two to ponder termsofservice.

I will concede that private schools have some advantages by the way.

How do you propose to deal with other disparities that exist in the state? For example

How do you solve the issue of schools such as Des Moines North with an almost non-existent athletic budget who has to compete against schools like WDM Valley who has millions to spend on athletics?

How would you address schools from the southern two tiers of county with their extremely high poverty rates having to compete against schools with very low poverty rates? When was the last southern tier school to dominate anything? Or even have a short run of extreme success at the state level?

How would you address schools with very high minority populations who struggle to get athletes out for any sports and typically are bottom feeders athletically?

If we only address the issue of public v private how is that fair to schools who are not successful due to other issues?

And again, what are your thoughts on public schools who have dominated and have high open enrollment in numbers?

 

[wolverine55]

Absolutely some coaches would put a .500 team over a 3 loss team if the .500 team is Wahlert and the 3 loss team is some small public school.

And I might be the only poster pushing this, but this board has like 5 posters all together. I guarantee there will be public outcry in the winter when parents/fans see the rule.

It's worked for years in Illinois with hardly ever a controversy. In fact, I can't recall one single seed controversy in all my years of following IL basketball. If the parents/fans publicly outcry before seeing how this will actually work, then the parents/fans are complete idiots.

I guess I'm crazy, but my only real point is I'm willing to see how this actually works before making an assumption that the coaches will do a bad job with it. I guess I'm not sure how that assumption can be made.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Here is another question or two to ponder termsofservice.

I will concede that private schools have some advantages by the way.

How do you propose to deal with other disparities that exist in the state? For example

How do you solve the issue of schools such as Des Moines North with an almost non-existent athletic budget who has to compete against schools like WDM Valley who has millions to spend on athletics?

How would you address schools from the southern two tiers of county with their extremely high poverty rates having to compete against schools with very low poverty rates? When was the last southern tier school to dominate anything? Or even have a short run of extreme success at the state level?

How would you address schools with very high minority populations who struggle to get athletes out for any sports and typically are bottom feeders athletically?

If we only address the issue of public v private how is that fair to schools who are not successful due to other issues?

And again, what are your thoughts on public schools who have dominated and have high open enrollment in numbers?

You are asking questions that won't be addressed. Terms is strictly a whiner asking for a multiplier. He doesn't look at all of the factors and can't really back up his recruited 'all star' line up rhetoric. It's a tiresome rant but he is persistent. There isn't really anything to show that a multiplier works but he still puts it out there.

 

[WSC72]

(I know)