Here is a question.....

[DarkThunder#61]

Basically what my question is for those against small class private schools, or those heavily in favor of a multiplier is that do you think they (small class private schools) should continue to play small town Iowa teams?

Considering the fact that a multiplier is more of a compromise than a solution, is the only alternative to have a team like Iowa City Regina never play a school with a certain enrollment below 'X' or a certain population below 'Y"?

Would that be better for those small town teams that have it rough having to play the Reginas and Western Christians and St. Edmonds at the 1A/2A level?

Because that is what I'm getting from guys like icu.....Just stop playing small town teams so they can play each other and feel better about themselves.

Of course that would also have to mean that public schools in those similar metro areas shouldn't ever play small town teams either, even though I have seen some cases where bigger 3A and 4A schools have taken on smaller 2A/3A public teams. Is that a no-no anymore as well, or should it only be reserved for private schools? icu has the answers so we'll wait for them.

 

[L N D]

"they can choose their enrollment numbers "

Are you saying that private schools are targeting a certain enrollment number to stay in a certain class so they are more competitive in athletics? If so - this is the most absurd statement I have ever heard! I know they can deny application, but I doubt that happens a whole lot if there are willing families to pay tuition. And to think they would say to the "Johnson" family - "We are sorry, we cannot accept your application for enrollment because you will move us up to 2A in athletics this year." Seriously??? Private schools try to enroll as many kids as they can into their school (increase revenue), so they can increase teachers pay, update facilities, and continue to offer a high quality of education. In fact a person could argue there are disadvantages like trying to convince teachers/coaches to take less pay and benefits.

Now - I do think that the private schools have certain advantages - especially in the metro areas. But what happens if we move the private schools up and they still win? Just like 4A this year. You can't bump them up to 5A. Putting them in their own class is not a feasible option.

CID - My vote would be leave it the way it is. Fair or unfair, give a 100% and try to beat the team in front of you. It is high school athletics - not life or death. In fact - life is not always going to be fair and may teach some kids a thing or two about the real world.

 

[cidhawkeye]

LND thank you for your post, there is an issue because so many people are talking about it. I just don't know that there has been a solution for the majority found anywhere. I know in talking to people that won't go on the record that coaching and weight room work are a large part of the issue. I have traveled to several schools and spoken with many coaches and toured their weight rooms and went over their results and there is a difference. I know that being strong does not guarantee victory but it sure doesn't hurt. I also know that some of the lifts measured don't impact football so much and that it is functional strength that is more vital but some of the numbers I have seen are a little surprising and the coaches will agree. That being said the light bulb has gone on at most of these schools and you will see a cyclical evening of the playing field. Then maybe we can start complaining over something else.

 

[Pinehawk]

Interesting read about open enrollment in Solon...

"For the last five years, Miller said, the district has not been growing through certified enrollment, but from open enrollment."

"And closing open enrollment unilaterally could have unintended consequences, observed board member Rick Jedlicka. He expressed concern that making across the board changes to open enrollment could affect "people's ability to kind of use this as their feeder system to get their kids in the district and then ultimately move (here)," which he called a "win-win for everybody."

Open Enrollment at Solon

 

[cidhawkeye]

So the school hires teachers from outside the school district and they OE their kids in? How very private of them.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Blame, still giving away trident and sticking with all 11 in district?

 

[pribs36]

I am sick of reading this..how about we just throw the rural towns in their own class and they can have their own little illegitimate state championship in the middle of a cornfield. I bet if you ask the real competitors from the small towns like the boys from Sigourney Keota, Maq Valley, Wilton etc then you will find a group of guys that want a shot at Regina, I remember in an interview from a Wilton player at the end of the season he said that his most memorable game was against Regina. They lost by 30 points but that didn't bother him, I also remember Parmely from MV expressing his excitement for the game in the playoffs this year, they both went out and competed and the better team won...thats football...thats life. If I win a title I would only be satisfied if I beat the best, and if I lost I would only be satisfied if I lost to the best. It might be awhile but someday Regina will be on the losing end, and some small town "public" school will be victorious. The metro area argument is awful, for the 100,169th time I guess we will have to say that Regina was an awful football program in the 1990's, and they were a good program before that so you can't use the "just recently" phrase. Waterloo Columbus is a private school in a city with a larger population then Iowa City, where are their advantages?? You also can't pull the former D1 player as a coach card either, watch film of Regina the first year that staff was together, they ran cover 3 every play and ran the pro style offense and handed the ball off 90% of their plays, the staff has stuck together and improved every year and their hard work is obviously paying off in big dividends. Also you take away the weight room aspect of the game from their program and I am not sure if any titles are won..its that important, high school football isn't about who has the most raw talent on the field anymore it has adapted into more then that, strength and conditioning wins games, period.

 

[rkhemp]

Kinda funny someone would start a thread and ask people for their opinion and when they get opinions that differ from theirs they call those people closed minded dumb asses and whiners.

I agree with L N D that if you bumped the private schools up a class they would still win championships. If that is the case, why wouldn't private schools want to bump up a class and compete? Why would Regina rather beat up small 1A schools by 30-50 points when they could beat up on 2A schools by 20-40 points?

Why has Regina's enrollment declined recently if it isn't basic social economics?

I am pretty sure the reason there are classes is to provide a level of even playing field, if not we would just have just one class. The current formula of just going by BEDS counts doesn't appear to be working. For instance, if there is a 1A power house that continously lands as one of the largest 1A schools based on BEDS, why couldn't they be switched with one of the smallest 2A schools who struggles to compete. There has to be a better formula than saying school A has 191 kids so they are in 1A and school B has 192 kids so they are in 2A, even though school A has a far better football program.

 

[cidhawkeye]

The whiners and dumb a**as are the ones who bitch about it being unfair and propose no solutions, I am open to different opinions that are thought out, researched and are realistic. The people who say every school works hard and all coaches are similar and they only win because of location, those are the people who bring nothing to the table other than the boo hop it isn't fair. Thinks it's an issue? Propose a solution. Better yet while working on a proposal get your team in the weight room, learn how to run multiple offenses. Think coaching staffs are similar? I watched Regina put in a brand new defense for a game, 3 series in they realized it wasn't working and put a new defense in, during the game. Not "let's go back to base or what we ran last week" new, this staff has evolved, and how they prepare is impressive. Keep thinking it is all about location and you will never catch up. Talented players working hard getting great coaching. Nope it's location, location, location. Must have moved the school in the 90's.

 

[Cardinal2012]

First and foremost I think they need to do classes by male enrollment numbers only. Then the state should take a good long look at participation done by all students throughout the year. Not for every sport but any sport and see if there is a huge discrepancy between public and private and if they really wanted to get serious open enrolled vs. not. If the numbers show a discrepancy then you can consider talking about a multiplier, if the numbers are not there then ignore the multiplier idea. I'm against tagging a meaningless number onto private school enrollment just for the sake of doing it. I'd like to see it justified by a study done by the association every few years to make sure the number remains appropriate. If the private schools still win, that's fine by me. It's fine by me if they win now. If you were interested in "leveling the playing field" or at the very least just want to shake things up then I would say a multiplier is the way to go.

Georgia used a multiplier and did away with it. Similarly to Iowa would be most of the private schools would be unaffected in regards to classification. The article also said the same schools were typically successful. IMO, this supports the argument to go with a multiplier, the private schools will still have great opportunities to win and it would quiet this debate. If a multiplier went into place and the problem is still there that private schools seem to always win it will certainly bring some people to light that public vs. private isn't the issue. It may be something else.

Illinois uses a multiplier but it only applies to open boundary schools, however it is important to not that unsuccessful schools under the current multiplier are eligible for a waiver.

Indiana proposes back to back title winners get bumped up the next cycle. This has its problems as well but it another alternative.

Georgia did split the postseason for their smallest class in all sports.
http://onlineathens.com/sports/prep/2012-01-13/gaines-ghsas-public-private-split-selfish-thoughtless

If anyone is looking for articles: http://www.theseniorreports.com/shakeup.htm

To sum all this up. Separate classes by male population. Don't do anything regarding a multiplier until a little bit of research is done in order to justify an action.

 

[cubs1910]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
The whiners and dumb a**as are the ones who bitch about it being unfair and propose no solutions, I am open to different opinions that are thought out, researched and are realistic. The people who say every school works hard and all coaches are similar and they only win because of location, those are the people who bring nothing to the table other than the boo hop it isn't fair. Thinks it's an issue? Propose a solution. Better yet while working on a proposal get your team in the weight room, learn how to run multiple offenses. Think coaching staffs are similar? I watched Regina put in a brand new defense for a game, 3 series in they realized it wasn't working and put a new defense in, during the game. Not "let's go back to base or what we ran last week" new, this staff has evolved, and how they prepare is impressive. Keep thinking it is all about location and you will never catch up. Talented players working hard getting great coaching. Nope it's location, location, location. Must have moved the school in the 90's.

While you have been sitting there telling everyone to stay on topic you have now proceeded to the sewer with all the other dumb a**as (people who think other than you) on this board !!!
There is NO solution that private school proponents such as yourself will listen to because there is NO problem. I am starting to see the light here--- OK, private school coaches are the best I have ever seen and their kids work SO MUCH harder than public school kids. Public school coaches are so dumb that they have no idea how to change their coaching style a few plays into the game. They also have a problem with evolving ( sounds like something out of a movie but could be wrong ). It has nothing to do with location but the amazing talent and coaches. Thanks CID I am seeing things much different now.

 

[cidhawkeye]

I can't beat them so I decided to join them, glad you can recognize what it looks like have close minded approach to things. The arguments are on opposite sides but the methodology is the same. Kind of like you guys needing to look in the mirror and recognize that you are contributing little to nothing to the discussion. Didn't like the presentation that I made? Guess what, tough crap. See how it feels to be on the other side of an approach like that? You discredit so many kids who have busted their a**, who have bought in and broke a state record. Do those kids work harder than everybody else? Nope, are their coaches better than everybody else? Nope. But the combination of good athletes, good coaches and hard work seems to be working pretty well. FYI, when pulling points from my posts please feel free to at least be accurate.

 

[WBBearsFollower]

I will take a stab at it CID.

YES, all 11 kids live in the WB school district or have gone to WB since K.

Anxious to hear your response on this one. I bet you have some super sleuthy detective work just ready to rock n roll!

Rhkemp said something like "i bet WB benefited from open enrollment at some point through the years"

Whoa, really going out on a limb there big daddy. Pretty sure about 90% of schools in Iowa have benefited from OE in one way or another. In the last 5 years at WB I can think of only one kid who open enrolled and contributed. One kid. An OL who transferred into WB from West.

 

[rkhemp]

Since you have gone on a big tangent CID, I would like to point a few things out. Nobody is dismissing the accomplishments of Regina. They have had a great run of tremendous athlete and the most respected coaching staff in the state. What a record. I believe they would have accomplished the same achievements at the 2A level with less lopsided victories. Judge, I would like to enter into evidence exhibit A, film of the 2013 Regina vs Solon football game. Regina 38 Solon 0. A top 4 3A Solon team I may add.

If it would come to a vote by school ADs and coaches, by a large margin there would be a multiplier immediately. Just as I have said before and the poster above, there would be a waiver process.

 

[cubs1910]

You discredit so many kids who have busted their a**, who have bought in and broke a state record. Do those kids work harder than everybody else? Nope, are their coaches better than everybody else? Nope. But the combination of good athletes, good coaches and hard work seems to be working pretty well.


In this statement you have admitted that the coaching is not better and the kids do not work any harder so what is the difference ??? Just gonna throw this out there---maybe it's the athletes and how well you can compete in the class you play in..

CID, I want to say, I have nothing against private schools at all. I have coached and are friends with many private school parents and have found them to be some of the finest and most dedicated people I know. Their kids are great people and work extremely hard. I am not from Eastern Iowa and am not a Regina hater at all and am impressed with what they have done. You have to take a step back for a minute and understand where public school people are coming from.
It is VERY frustrating for many public schools that some of the privates make it to state or are successful year in and year out in certain sports. As mentioned before they have the ability to say yes or no to a kid coming in or better yet give them help with tuition or not if they want to come to their school. I was at a basketball game today where a public school which is 3A had a total of 2 Caucasian kids on their team. This particular school has over 50% of their kids that can't speak English and 25 or 30 years ago was a thriving community where home values and income was among the highest in the state. Do you think these kids are great basketball, football, or baseball players ??? NO...but you may not want to play them in soccer or some other sport. They have huge enrollment numbers with very low participation numbers which is not conducive to successful sports programs. Times are changing and so are demographics in many communities. I may never convince any private school person that there is an advantage but to a public school participant the results over the years speak for themselves. I would not want a multiplier if I went to a private school, was successful year in and year out either but is it right ?? I think private schools will always dominate no matter if they move up a class or not but it might make some of us feel better.

 

[OtherWiseGinger]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
It has become what I didn't want it to be. To be expected from the closed minded, green eyed dumb a**as on this board. Does that make me fit in better here? Nice job of pissing and moaning and bringing nothing to help address the situation. Want a multiplier? Do your homework and let us know where it works, come up with another solution and explain how it works and how it will fix the issue you see as so vital. Otherwise hope your team doesn't play one of these private school machines well maybe Waterloo Columbus who with all of the advantages you cry about doesn't manage to dominate. Nice work board.

This post was edited on 1/31 7:41 AM by cidhawkeye

One can always find "a" team to say "look at"... Cedar Vally Christian is one that comes to my mind as being more or less a door mat.

I have noticed that in the past 5-7 years the private schools have become a much bigger factor in athletics, not just ICR but all. Look at Western Christian Hull, they just beat Heelan by 14 and WCH is a force in BBall every year.

Why for years were some of the smaller private schools average to below average in athletics and now all of a sudden they are dominating? You can say "weight room" but it's more than that, Solon, Washington, W'burg, CPU, Wilton, SK, Alburnett, Lisbon,etc all have weight rooms that have a half their student body lifting (some with professional instructors). There is something else, it is just hard to put a finger on it.

 

[cidhawkeye]

The schools.you listed have been pretty solid in football so maybe the weight room has something to do with it. As.far.as.cubs response to my post, you didn't catch my sarcasm. Regina has a coaching staff that is better than most and.the players do work harder/smarter than most.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Sorry no super sleuthy response. The original claim was "all 11 live in district" not "all live in district OR have been there since k" fairly.significant difference in those two claims. Not all 11 live in district. Not a big.deal, just don't like people putting things out there as a fact when it isn't.
This post was edited on 2/3 4:43 PM by cidhawkeye

 

[WBBearsFollower]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
Sorry no super sleuthy response. The original claim was "all 11 live in district" not "all live in district OR have been there since k" fairly.significant difference in those two claims. Not all 11 live in district. Not a big.deal, just don't like people putting things out there as a fact when it isn't.
This post was edited on 2/3 4:43 PM by cidhawkeye

What does that matter, CID?
You seem like a pretty level headed fella so I wont waste too much of your time.
All 11 in the district or have lived there since K.
That means SOME have lived in WB since the beginning, and some have moved in later. But none are open enrollment.
Of the 11 starters Blame projected, I can think of 3 who moved into the district after Kindergarten. One came in 8th grade, another in 6th, and another in 5th. The rest since K.

I hope that helps out a little bit. Not sure why Blame neglected a response. That's a bit unlike him to shy away from controversy isn't it? hahaha.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Fairly level headed? How dare you say that about me!!

It isn't a big deal, he just wasn't factual and even if someone has been in the school since K, if they live outside of the district they are OE, they fill out the form each year and count as an OE.

 

[IronFist]

It is not 1986 anymore. The dynamic of youth sports has evolved. MULTIPLIER!

 

[cyard31]

are you saying this change in dynamic has only evolved for the private school athlete?

 

[cidhawkeye]

Prepare for "rich kids" or "demographic advantage in 3.. 2.... 1 ....

 

[pribs36]

What does youth sports have anything to do with private or public? Especially football, if I am not mistaken every team on Regina's schedule has a youth tackle football program that is ran by parents, and every jr high has a 7th and 8th grade squad. Football is the worse sport to argue for youth advantages because there is no AAU like there is for sports like basketball and volleyball.