Here is a question.....
- Thread starter cidhawkeye
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I agree that it's not just a football issue. It also comes up a lot in boys basketball. Not so much in girls sports, for whatever reason. You would think that if parents were sending kids to private schools for athletics, it would be more dominant in girls sports because of all the college scholarships available under Title IX.
West Branch has probably benefited more than any team in the state when it comes to open enrollment. My suggestion would be to add a multiplier to all private schools and West Branch.
As almost every thread in 1A Football Forum turns into a West Branch vs Regina thread, I suggest to Luke he divides 1A Football Forum to a West Branch/Regina 1A Football Forum and All Other Schools that Don't Matter 1A Football Forum.
As almost every thread in 1A Football Forum turns into a West Branch vs Regina thread, I suggest to Luke he divides 1A Football Forum to a West Branch/Regina 1A Football Forum and All Other Schools that Don't Matter 1A Football Forum.
Hmmm.......you guys scheduled Union-LPC, Decorah and Heelan in the last three years ON TOP of playing Solon? Man, that's impressive. I'm guessing you beat them so bad they decided to not even put the game in the official record books.
Or you could just say that you play your nearby 3A rival in N-D (who happens to have a really good football program).
Is OE to be closed only for athlete's? If you close open enrollment for all (k-12), you are going to have a hornet's nest on your backside.
For those proposing a multiplier, how do you come up with that number? We have heard low/free lunch ratio, participation rates, male population etc. who can come up with one that works and everyone can grudgingly accept?
RH I am all for the WB multiplier, they sit over there with many of the same benefits yet cast stones at others sorry Blame I had to see if you were still following.
RH I am all for the WB multiplier, they sit over there with many of the same benefits yet cast stones at others
sorry Blame I had to see if you were still following.I agree with everything about cloud watchers post except the fact that he is way off in the all time series between Regina and WB. Regina actually leads the all time series by a few games. As for the rest the thread I am noticing some more support for the private schools then usual...seems odd.
You can't exclude sports there bub (if a small school has students that want to play soccer, they can send them to a school that has that program, the receiving school has to then include the enrollment of that entire school into it's BEDS count) - basketball, baseball, soccer - (especially with Regina\Xavier) are some of the other sports that privates have excelled at (xavier has won something like 8 straight girls soccer titles), St.Mary's had the longest win streak in baseball, Regina has won several soccer titles, basketball (Pella Christian, Western Christian, FDSE, etc).
The advantage that the private schools have is they can be selective as to who they accept into their schools. No one has refutted this scenario:
Johnny, Jacob and Jason apply at Private school "X" - their background (all three do not do any school activities, they get D's and F's, could care less about school and their classmates, a drag on the school system). Private school "X" can deny entrance (and in 99% would deny).
Same three move into Public School "Z" district - they have to take them, now do that 3-10 times per class your enrollment goes up and your athletics (ECA's) have not gained any bodies.
That would be the reason for a multiplier.
Doing a little digging, I found an article from Ohio that IMO is a pretty good idea (similar to Pine's idea i think):
Add them up
Well, I could be wrong here, but I believe "diversity" is an old, old wooden ship used during thee Civil War era.....
In other words, Martensdale-St. Mary's, as far as I know, is a public school. In fact there was some hubbub about baseball players open-enrolling from around the DSM area during their winning streak.
you're right.Originally posted by rkhemp:
West Branch has probably benefited more than any team in the state when it comes to open enrollment. My suggestion would be to add a multiplier to all private schools and West Branch.
As almost every thread in 1A Football Forum turns into a West Branch vs Regina thread, I suggest to Luke he divides 1A Football Forum to a West Branch/Regina 1A Football Forum and All Other Schools that Don't Matter 1A Football Forum.
West Branch has benefited greatly from the open enrollment system.
2014 projected lineup (and when they arrived at WB)
QB - since K
RB - since K
FB - since K or since 5th grade
WR 1/2 - one in 8th grade, one since K
TE - since K
OL - 4 since K, 1 in 5th grade.
- all 11 players live in district.
- not a single WB starter will be from open enrollment out of district.
Thanks for trying, RHKemp.
You can pick up your trident and attempt to yield more advocacy of the devil now.
Yes Dark - I forgot to put in that St.Mary's was public and was an abuser of the OE during that streak, thanks for clarifying that.
That's a good story about 2014 Blame. However, has West Branch ever had teams benefit from kids open enrolling/ transferring in? All their great players have always attended since K? I can gurantee you they have found some athletes over the years that have greatly benefitted them. I'm not upset about it, but to say they never have would greatly be a lie.
Just have a question for you Cid. Heard a rumor that Regina was offered to play Cedar Rapids Xavier in a non-district game for the next two years. With you (Cid) being very knowledgeable on Iowa City Regina, I was just wondering if there is any truth to this rumor?
Blame are you going to stick with all 11 living in district? No idea on when they all got there. Blame I will let you know that the Regina team in 2011 got all of the sticks thrown at them as well even though 21 of the seniors came there in K.
Fairly certain I am not real knowlegeable but it is my understanding that the two schools have had conversations about playing. I don't know if it has gone past that stage but the hype and the gate for that game would be pretty big.
Better than being in the barn that exploded because the cows were producing too much methane(farting) and then having a spark make the barn blow up.Originally posted by OtherWiseGinger:
My goodness, IC might implode from so much christianity being in one place!
Printit posted : I agree that if you put in a multiplier you need to stop open enrollment for public schools. I don't see this issue being debated on the wrestling, baseball, or basketball sites. I assume this is just for football and I assume that this is based on this past year's results and not taking into account the results over the past 5-10 years. When Solon beat Heelan for the 3A title in 2010, nobody from Solon was asking for a multiplier. Now that they have to go through a Xavier or Assumption to get to the dome, now people want one.
Printit: This is not just a football issue at all. Go back and look at who participated in the State tournament in Baseball, and Basketball over the last several years. I think you may be surprised to see how dominate the private schools have been in those two sports as well over the years. I think this is just starting to happen over the past decade or so in football. I know I read on this thread somewhere that private school kids might work harder or it has even been suggested in some other threads that they may have better coaching. That is total CRAP in my opinion. There are public school kids busting their butt everyday to get better and compete. There are also some fantastic coaches at public schools that just don't have the athletes to compete with the private school kids.
I would suggest that this mainly happens when you have a private school located in a larger urban area where there are plenty of jobs and opportunities for a family to stay located in that certain area. The private school can control their enrollment if they want to and public schools can't. Period.. Any way you look at it this IS an advantage that should be dealt with. Private schools have to recruit kids or they would no longer be in existence so I really don't have a problem if they do. Now, when they offer jobs to parents at the school when their kid is a stud, that crosses the line. Private school people who don't think there is an advantage are just turning a blind eye to the situation. I don't know if there is a fair way to solve this problem as some private schools in smaller towns are starting to struggle while the ones in the bigger cities flourish. The enrollment of these small privates have really dropped over the last few years and some have had to consolidate with other privates.
I really like the idea of the multiplier used in the case of these schools located in big cities but don't think it's fair to do this to some really small private schools. That being said, the proof their is a problem is in the results over the last few years. I wouldn't want it to change either if I was going to a private school but is it really right ??
This post was edited on 1/29 6:50 PM by cubs1910
Printit: This is not just a football issue at all. Go back and look at who participated in the State tournament in Baseball, and Basketball over the last several years. I think you may be surprised to see how dominate the private schools have been in those two sports as well over the years. I think this is just starting to happen over the past decade or so in football. I know I read on this thread somewhere that private school kids might work harder or it has even been suggested in some other threads that they may have better coaching. That is total CRAP in my opinion. There are public school kids busting their butt everyday to get better and compete. There are also some fantastic coaches at public schools that just don't have the athletes to compete with the private school kids.
I would suggest that this mainly happens when you have a private school located in a larger urban area where there are plenty of jobs and opportunities for a family to stay located in that certain area. The private school can control their enrollment if they want to and public schools can't. Period.. Any way you look at it this IS an advantage that should be dealt with. Private schools have to recruit kids or they would no longer be in existence so I really don't have a problem if they do. Now, when they offer jobs to parents at the school when their kid is a stud, that crosses the line. Private school people who don't think there is an advantage are just turning a blind eye to the situation. I don't know if there is a fair way to solve this problem as some private schools in smaller towns are starting to struggle while the ones in the bigger cities flourish. The enrollment of these small privates have really dropped over the last few years and some have had to consolidate with other privates.
I really like the idea of the multiplier used in the case of these schools located in big cities but don't think it's fair to do this to some really small private schools. That being said, the proof their is a problem is in the results over the last few years. I wouldn't want it to change either if I was going to a private school but is it really right ??
This post was edited on 1/29 6:50 PM by cubs1910
If Regina plays non-district games with Xavier and Solon, and then with district 6 being one of the better districts in the state. What a tough schedule!
The first paragraph is what I was hoping to avoid with this thread. The 2nd approaches the subject a little better. The offering of a job at a private school doesn't appear to be much of an incentive since their pay and benefit package is well behind what people can get at public schools.
That was a hilarious story...Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
Better than being in the barn that exploded because the cows were producing too much methane(farting) and then having a spark make the barn blow up.Originally posted by OtherWiseGinger:
My goodness, IC might implode from so much christianity being in one place!
Ex-cow-se you!
True but can we please not get politics in this, let's keep it civilized and just bash the private schools!Originally posted by rkhemp:
Lindsay Abrams obviously hasn't been to the midwest this winter or checked the liberal talking points recently. The fear of global warming has been replaced by the fear of climate change
YES! They DO have a multiplier........of sorts.
We know you aren't dumb but you have shown a propensity at times to not be all that bright. I really think you and a few others do it intentionally though.
I and others have explained this to you, (yes you) and others multiple, multiple times.
Solon is 3A.....Humboldt is 3A.
Bed room communities such as Solon, now Bondurant Farrar and Gilbert for example, were 2A and in growing communities.they out grew class 2A and are now 3A. The problem is solved.
North Polk? They will be 3A next cycle. Most of the public schools that benefit from the metro areas end up moving up and it is no longer an issue.
Council Bluffs St Albert, Iowa City Regina, Fort Dodge St Edmond, Pella Christian are 1A or 2A and aren't likely going to 3A anytime soon based on enrollment. Yet, they are located in 3A and 4A sized cities.
Do you see how that works? No? Then we can't help you. Pity that you are a teacher.
Lastly, this is not a new thing. This isn't an issue "All of the sudden". It's been an issue for decades around the country.
Iowa is a small state and is just catching up
The thread is trying to come up with answers, attacking someone by insulting their intelligence and their profession really wasn't my intent in starting this. I anxiously await your solutions, anyone can bring the problem to the table, it is the leader who brings the solution. Fire away.
"YES! They DO have a multiplier........of sorts."
Not a multiplier, that is playing where your enrollment puts you. Not same thing at all. And I would say that towns like Solon and North Polk have distinct advantages over small 3A towns in rural areas. So maybe they moved on and don't cause 2A problems, but having talented athletes open enrolling in to Solon Iowa is slightly more common than say, Keokuk, IA.
Not a multiplier, that is playing where your enrollment puts you. Not same thing at all. And I would say that towns like Solon and North Polk have distinct advantages over small 3A towns in rural areas. So maybe they moved on and don't cause 2A problems, but having talented athletes open enrolling in to Solon Iowa is slightly more common than say, Keokuk, IA.
But when an 8 man, A, 1A or 2A program is located IN or within a couple of miles from a METRO area, they are going to have quite the inventory of coaches to select from.
Just the sheer #'s to pull from they will have a better chance of getting a well qualified, solid coach that may not need a big salary or benefits due to their job.
Or better yet, have access to enough people to round out a staff full of former D1/NFL players and coaches.
You just don't have that very often, if ever, in a small, rural community.
The issue here isn't 3A schools competing. The top end of them have enough #'s and resources to compete well enough. It's the small schools in the rural areas (which make up most of the state) competing in the same classification against schools in metro areas.
Lastly, this has always been an issue around the country regarding this topic.
For Iowa, Small town Iowa is dying. The last decade has seen an explosion of ultra competitive helicopter parents combined with the internet boom of information availability and improved training and coaching. Those metro areas are chock full of camps and training facilities, AAU club sports and travel teams.
The priority of sports has changed dramatically. So when you take all of that and have prvt schools and their inherent advantages (such as location and higher % of quality kids etc.) competing with the small schools and their inherent disadvantages you can see why this has really come to light in the past decade in Iowa.
3A and above doesn't need a multiplier to compete. The upper level 3A size schools can fend for themselves. They have the #'s. If they want to compete, they at least have a fighting chance. based on #'s there is a much better chance for them to grow their athletic programs
"Or better yet, have access to enough people to round out a staff full of former D1/NFL players and coaches.
You just don't have that very often, if ever, in a small, rural community.
The issue here isn't 3A schools competing. The top end of them have enough #'s and resources to compete well enough. It's the small schools in the rural areas (which make up most of the state) competing in the same classification against schools in metro areas.
Lastly, this has always been an issue around the country regarding this topic.
For Iowa, Small town Iowa is dying. The last decade has seen an explosion of ultra competitive helicopter parents combined with the internet boom of information availability and improved training and coaching. Those metro areas are chock full of camps and training facilities, AAU club sports and travel teams.
The priority of sports has changed dramatically. So when you take all of that and have prvt schools and their inherent advantages (such as location and higher % of quality kids etc.) competing with the small schools and their inherent disadvantages you can see why this has really come to light in the past decade in Iowa."
Here this goes in circles again....why are those advantages bad for Regina, but ok for the West Branch's of the world who sits 8 miles from Iowa City. What do you do with those towns/schools? If these are the distinct advantages schools such as Regina enjoy, what is the difference there? ...................And que the argument on socio-economic status and IEP's. Which I argue, if kids are on IEP's due to a learning disability (which is the largest number of IEPS schools deal with) they absolutely should be counted in BEDS for athletics, they can participate and contribute very well to athletic teams,
You just don't have that very often, if ever, in a small, rural community.
The issue here isn't 3A schools competing. The top end of them have enough #'s and resources to compete well enough. It's the small schools in the rural areas (which make up most of the state) competing in the same classification against schools in metro areas.
Lastly, this has always been an issue around the country regarding this topic.
For Iowa, Small town Iowa is dying. The last decade has seen an explosion of ultra competitive helicopter parents combined with the internet boom of information availability and improved training and coaching. Those metro areas are chock full of camps and training facilities, AAU club sports and travel teams.
The priority of sports has changed dramatically. So when you take all of that and have prvt schools and their inherent advantages (such as location and higher % of quality kids etc.) competing with the small schools and their inherent disadvantages you can see why this has really come to light in the past decade in Iowa."
Here this goes in circles again....why are those advantages bad for Regina, but ok for the West Branch's of the world who sits 8 miles from Iowa City. What do you do with those towns/schools? If these are the distinct advantages schools such as Regina enjoy, what is the difference there? ...................And que the argument on socio-economic status and IEP's. Which I argue, if kids are on IEP's due to a learning disability (which is the largest number of IEPS schools deal with) they absolutely should be counted in BEDS for athletics, they can participate and contribute very well to athletic teams,
3A and above doesn't need a multiplier to compete. The upper level 3A size schools can fend for themselves. They have the #'s. If they want to compete, they at least have a fighting chance. based on #'s there is a much better chance for them to grow their athletic programs
I don't get this argument. What is an upper level 3A size school? And if 3A size schools just have enough bodies why all the fuss about Xavier and Assumption then? (not necessarily from you, just in general, why is everyone up in arms if 3A schools have enough bodies and they can grow their athletic programs.) And doesn't Solon with it's access to the Univeristy and more hawkeye football players and former NFL players weigh in for them as an "advantage" as opposed to Keokuk, which probably doesn't have as many hangin' around? (I'm gonna throw that in as an advantage for West Branch too. Not sure how much the current coach uses that accessibility, but it's there for the taking....Advantage West Branch). I know Clear Creek Amana is taking advantage of that type of coaching accessibility, so that isn't just a private school advantage any longer.
This post was edited on 1/30 3:56 PM by printit
This post was edited on 1/30 3:57 PM by printit
I don't get this argument. What is an upper level 3A size school? And if 3A size schools just have enough bodies why all the fuss about Xavier and Assumption then? (not necessarily from you, just in general, why is everyone up in arms if 3A schools have enough bodies and they can grow their athletic programs.) And doesn't Solon with it's access to the Univeristy and more hawkeye football players and former NFL players weigh in for them as an "advantage" as opposed to Keokuk, which probably doesn't have as many hangin' around? (I'm gonna throw that in as an advantage for West Branch too. Not sure how much the current coach uses that accessibility, but it's there for the taking....Advantage West Branch). I know Clear Creek Amana is taking advantage of that type of coaching accessibility, so that isn't just a private school advantage any longer.
This post was edited on 1/30 3:56 PM by printit
This post was edited on 1/30 3:57 PM by printit
But when an 8 man, A, 1A or 2A program is located IN or within a couple of miles from a METRO area, they are going to have quite the inventory of coaches to select from.
Just the sheer #'s to pull from they will have a better chance of getting a well qualified, solid coach that may not need a big salary or benefits due to their job.
Or better yet, have access to enough people to round out a staff full of former D1/NFL players and coaches.
You just don't have that very often, if ever, in a small, rural community.
The issue here isn't 3A schools competing. The top end of them have enough #'s and resources to compete well enough. It's the small schools in the rural areas (which make up most of the state) competing in the same classification against schools in metro areas.
Lastly, this has always been an issue around the country regarding this topic.
For Iowa, Small town Iowa is dying. The last decade has seen an explosion of ultra competitive helicopter parents combined with the internet boom of information availability and improved training and coaching. Those metro areas are chock full of camps and training facilities, AAU club sports and travel teams.
The priority of sports has changed dramatically. So when you take all of that and have prvt schools and their inherent advantages (such as location and higher % of quality kids etc.) competing with the small schools and their inherent disadvantages you can see why this has really come to light in the past decade in Iowa.
ICU--you have absolutely nailed it in this post. The difference at the 1a and 2a level is so much more than the 3a and 4a schools. Your points about the advantages these big city kids have in coaching and playing very high level competition at young ages makes a huge difference. Small town Iowa is dying for sure as is many rural areas of the state. Is it really surprising that a 1A Mason City Newman has been to the State baseball tournament 17 times but 10 since 2001 with 2 or 3 titles thrown in. Also 4 out the top 10 leaders in runner-up or Championship baseball game appearances are private schools and most have played at the 1A and 2A level (Assumption-12 appearances with 11 Champ app. Beckman--14 app. 11-champs or runner-up, Spalding Catholic 12- w/ 8 champ or runner-up, Dowling--16 Appearances w/ 6 in the Championship Game. This is not counting Newman's 17 trips and Heelens 14.. I didn't check basketball but am guessing it is pretty similar. I will admit some of the private school kids work hard at certain sports but ICU has a great point that the opportunity to get better in bigger cities is a big advantage and this combined with the fact that they can choose their enrollment numbers has the scale tipped in the private schools favor.
Just the sheer #'s to pull from they will have a better chance of getting a well qualified, solid coach that may not need a big salary or benefits due to their job.
Or better yet, have access to enough people to round out a staff full of former D1/NFL players and coaches.
You just don't have that very often, if ever, in a small, rural community.
The issue here isn't 3A schools competing. The top end of them have enough #'s and resources to compete well enough. It's the small schools in the rural areas (which make up most of the state) competing in the same classification against schools in metro areas.
Lastly, this has always been an issue around the country regarding this topic.
For Iowa, Small town Iowa is dying. The last decade has seen an explosion of ultra competitive helicopter parents combined with the internet boom of information availability and improved training and coaching. Those metro areas are chock full of camps and training facilities, AAU club sports and travel teams.
The priority of sports has changed dramatically. So when you take all of that and have prvt schools and their inherent advantages (such as location and higher % of quality kids etc.) competing with the small schools and their inherent disadvantages you can see why this has really come to light in the past decade in Iowa.
ICU--you have absolutely nailed it in this post. The difference at the 1a and 2a level is so much more than the 3a and 4a schools. Your points about the advantages these big city kids have in coaching and playing very high level competition at young ages makes a huge difference. Small town Iowa is dying for sure as is many rural areas of the state. Is it really surprising that a 1A Mason City Newman has been to the State baseball tournament 17 times but 10 since 2001 with 2 or 3 titles thrown in. Also 4 out the top 10 leaders in runner-up or Championship baseball game appearances are private schools and most have played at the 1A and 2A level (Assumption-12 appearances with 11 Champ app. Beckman--14 app. 11-champs or runner-up, Spalding Catholic 12- w/ 8 champ or runner-up, Dowling--16 Appearances w/ 6 in the Championship Game. This is not counting Newman's 17 trips and Heelens 14.. I didn't check basketball but am guessing it is pretty similar. I will admit some of the private school kids work hard at certain sports but ICU has a great point that the opportunity to get better in bigger cities is a big advantage and this combined with the fact that they can choose their enrollment numbers has the scale tipped in the private schools favor.
It has become what I didn't want it to be. To be expected from the closed minded, green eyed dumb a**as on this board. Does that make me fit in better here? Nice job of pissing and moaning and bringing nothing to help address the situation. Want a multiplier? Do your homework and let us know where it works, come up with another solution and explain how it works and how it will fix the issue you see as so vital. Otherwise hope your team doesn't play one of these private school machines well maybe Waterloo Columbus who with all of the advantages you cry about doesn't manage to dominate. Nice work board.
This post was edited on 1/31 7:41 AM by cidhawkeye
This post was edited on 1/31 7:41 AM by cidhawkeye
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