Here is a question.....

[cidhawkeye]

With the district hub bub slowing down and the WB coach indicating that there will be discussion on the private/public school issue by the coaches association this fall to "level the playing field"

What are your opinions on the following.

Private schools have a multiplier but open enrollment is closed

Private schools have a multiplier and open enrollment is allowed but you need to miss a school calander year if you transfer after 7th grade

No multiplier and closed open enrollment

Left the way it is currently.

How do you figure the multiplier

I am open to other thoughts on the subject as well. Hopefully we can keep this civil and since we know Luke has Bud's ear on twitter maybe we can get a solution started.

 

[rkhemp]

I would do a multiplier based on population of school's area. If you look at the dominating private schools, I believe most of not all come from big urban areas. The private schools located in smaller towns do not have the same advantages.

Or you can just give them all the same multiplier and schools who feel they would be negatively affected could apply for a waiver. For example, Cedar Valley Christian would be elgible for a waiver. Other schools would be able to support or not support said waiver.

What is funny is the state brought up the playoff format and number of games played as issues when this was the real hot topic at many of the coaches meetings.

 

[Pinehawk]

If you're going to implement a multiplier, then open enrollment needs to close. Can't have it both ways.

 

[cidhawkeye]

One of the big contentions is private schools don't have to accept special needs students, how do you factor that in?

 

[se xc1]

One of the big contentions is that bedroom communities such as Solon, Humboldt, Manson, etc have similar (not exact) advantages as the small private in a big city have. Do they have a multiplier? Once again, will someone please, PLEASE show me why the privates - ALL OF A SUDDEN - are doing well when they have had this advantage since they opened their doors?

 

[BlameIt]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
One of the big contentions is private schools don't have to accept special needs students, how do you factor that in?

+1

tough to find a "multiplier" for that.

Honestly, it is a disadvantage to the public schools only for enrollment numbers re: athletics. Otherwise, it is a 100% advantage for the schools to be able to have amazing kids like those in your district as students.

 

[paxregis]

Open enrollment is a legislative, not an IHSAA, matter. The IHSAA can extend the ineligbility period, but I'm not a fan of that. Families that really want to change schools will plan ahead and move to get around a longer OE "penalty"
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[paxregis]

Really, when you look into top athletes OEing or moving, it's been public-to-public almost exclusively. So changing rules would not address the percieved "private school advantage"
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[PNation]

You can't close open enrollment because just like going to a parochial school you don't just do it for sports, yes there are some who open enroll just for sports but that is the minority.

Here is what I would do

1. Create a multiplier based on a combination of the schools enrollment and population of area they are located in (e.g. Xavier and Heelan would have a larger multiplier than Garrigan), and possibly sports participation history.

2. CID I like your idea of a year without varsity participation for open enrolling, But I think there needs to be a waiver/review system for kids open enrolling for reasons beyond athletics.

3. Stop allowing the free open enrolling that you see in metro areas like Des Moines.

 

[GoHawks2009]

Originally posted by PNation:


3. Stop allowing the free open enrolling that you see in metro areas like Des Moines.

 

[printit]

I agree that if you put in a multiplier you need to stop open enrollment for public schools. I don't see this issue being debated on the wrestling, baseball, or basketball sites. I assume this is just for football and I assume that this is based on this past year's results and not taking into account the results over the past 5-10 years. When Solon beat Heelan for the 3A title in 2010, nobody from Solon was asking for a multiplier. Now that they have to go through a Xavier or Assumption to get to the dome, now people want one.

Missouri has a multiplier for the private schools who are just all boys schools.

 

[pribs36]

I agree with Printit in 2010 Solon absolutely hammered the PRIVATE Bishop Heelan, absolutely no sign of debate for multiplier. 2011 St. Ansgar beats the PRIVATE CB St. Albert and take a guess...yep you're right, no concern on the 1A board. 2012: Ankeny beats Xavier in 4A title...yep still no debate. 2013: Dowling and Xavier meet in the title game...4A message boards ERUPT. I think public schools will snag most the titles this year, we will see what happens, but if they do it will be interesting to compare the message boards from this year to next year, it is strange how things simmer down a bit.

 

[BlameIt]

Originally posted by pribs36:
I think public schools will snag most the titles this year, we will see what happens, but if they do it will be interesting to compare the message boards from this year to next year, it is strange how things simmer down a bit.

a) As I have said a few times, "PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE OPEN ENROLLMENT FOR THE WEALTHY"

b) Wanna bet on your quote above?

Regina will dominate 1A. Dominate.
Xavier, Heelan, or Assumption will win 3A.
Dowling in 4A.

If 2 of the classes are won by privates, then that is a majority when you look at the percentages.

21 competing private schools in Iowa. 2 of them win a title. Meaning, 10% of all private schools won a title.

2013: 33% of all private schools who participate in FB played in the championship game. 25% of them won a title.

You tell me if the field is level.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Not all kids at private schools are wealthy, much the same as not all kids at WB are farmers. We are getting off of my original question a little. Looking for discussion rather than shooting arrows across the road at each other.

 

[printit]

Blame: I appreciate your thoughts but again I will say we didn't hear anything from the public schools when they were winning. Now the private schools (I'm sorry RICH KIDS) are on a roll and people like you want to change the rules. Let's give everyone a participation medal and call it a day or better yet maybe you can have a class 1A B category for your team and they can win that.

 

[Cardinal2012]

I'd start by sorting classes using male enrollment numbers only. At the small class (8-man to 1A) level that can give teams a huge advantage (or disadvantage). Maybe they already do that but I thought I heard differently. The next thing I would account for is special education students. As Blame mentioned they are great kids, but a disadvantage athletically and that's the role of the IAHSAA. The third and final thing I would look into is a multiplier. Do participation research and take the discrepancy (if any) divided by 2 (so as not to punish schools that have increased participation because of success) and have schools be eligible for a waiver. If there is a 30% difference make the multiplier 1.15. If it wasn't too much effort I'd throw a multiplier on individually open enrolled students, but not the whole school, by the same amount. Just some ideas to be thrown out there.

 

[printit]

Cardinal: I like your post, some good thoughts on just using the number of boys. If open enrollment goes away as well then everything is good if there is a multiplier. If it does not, then I think you need to look at using the multiplier at cities such as Des Moines, Cedar Rapids, Iowa City, Sioux City and the towns within a 10-15 mile radius because they are at the same advantage with kids moving in and open enrollment. (Ex: Solon, Clear Creek, West Branch etc) The towns that are truly by themselves (Jewel, Decorah, Aplington etc..) would not be affected. Just a thought.

 

[rkhemp]

Solon had a nice run with some unbelievable talent. It seems they have a great school district with great athletics and academics. Since their roll in all achievements, their school has grew by open enrollment and families moving in. They have moved up and are still very competitive. Open enrollment seems to be working the way it is meant to, giving families opportunities to give their children the best education available.

Since Regina started rolling, they have actually dropped a class and appear to be staying put. Why is it that their enrollment numbers haven't increased? Don't they offer a great education and great athletic opportunities? People could see a drop off in talent coming at Solon and they would have some not so dominating seasons. Is there a drop off in talent coming from Regina where they won't be so dominating in 1A? Maybe, who knows.

 

[printit]

Regina's enrollment has dropped mostly due to the economy and competition. A new family moving in can choose to attend or open enroll at a number of schools in the Iowa City area (IC West, City High, West Branch, Solon, and Clear Creek). Families, who are Catholic, will look at Regina but it is still a cost to them. They can apply for some tuition assistance but that is the decision they have to make.

 

[rkhemp]

So what you are saying Printit is there is some truth to Blameit's statement that private schools are open enrollment for the wealthy

 

[PNation]

You guys mention when Solon beat Heelan, or St. Ansgar between St. Albert. Yes a parochial school didn't win the title but they still made it to the title game which is a big accomplishment in itself. In all honesty the team that torques me is Xavier, they had 150 kids out for high school football, and they want to play 3A, and their coach was on KCRG saying how someone said when they won the 4A title as a 3A school it was the biggest accomplishment ever. They have the same resources and better talent than a 4A school, and just because they don't have to deal with the rift raft that public schools do means that they can keep an enrollment just below the 4A level. Yes Heelan, Kuemper, Regina, St. Eds, and Don Bosco all irritate me as well, actually Don Bosco probably 2nd most considering they are playing 8 man with a beds of 117 when the cutoff is supposed to be 115, but Xavier acting like they were abused having to play 4A for those years is crap. The public schools need to get together and force change, I don't know if this means boycotting all post season activity for a year or what but public schools need to stand up for themselves.

 

[Anonymous2002]

The easiest solution is to automatically bump up the Catholic schools one class (unless they have had a history of struggling).I believe this is how it is done in Illinois... This year, as well as the next two, appear to be dominated by Catholic schools once again, especially in 3A with Assumption, Xavier and Wahlert moving down a class.

 

[usfhawk]

Originally posted by PNation:
You can't close open enrollment because just like going to a parochial school you don't just do it for sports, yes there are some who open enroll just for sports but that is the minority.

Here is what I would do

1. Create a multiplier based on a combination of the schools enrollment and population of area they are located in (e.g. Xavier and Heelan would have a larger multiplier than Garrigan), and possibly sports participation history.

2. CID I like your idea of a year without varsity participation for open enrolling, But I think there needs to be a waiver/review system for kids open enrolling for reasons beyond athletics.

3. Stop allowing the free open enrolling that you see in metro areas like Des Moines.

All good points.

 

[Pinehawk]

Originally posted by Anonymous2002:
The easiest solution is to automatically bump up the Catholic schools one class (unless they have had a history of struggling).I believe this is how it is done in Illinois... This year, as well as the next two, appear to be dominated by Catholic schools once again, especially in 3A with Assumption, Xavier and Wahlert moving down a class.

The problem is that people will still be mad if private schools win a title...at whatever class.
The only way it's going to be 'fair' to some, is if private schools don't win any more titles. That's what people are really trying to figure out how to accomplish.

 

[usfhawk]

You cannot close open enrollment. Many more students open enroll due to social issue than anything athletic related. The only thing the state could do would be adjust the eligibility period.

I would say add a multiplier at 1.25-1.5 to all private schools and change ineligibility period to 1 full school year for those who open enroll (unless there are known issues for the open enrollment (social/family))

At the end of the day you still need to line up and play who is across from you. If it is a private school are you going to whine that they have unfair advantages or play ball? Line up and play!!

 

[DarkThunder#61]

Originally posted by PNation:
Yes Heelan, Kuemper, Regina, St. Eds, and Don Bosco all irritate me as well,

Lol....so basically you are admitting that you are irritated with these schools JUST because they made it to/won a state championship game.

Are private schools not allowed to win a state championship, or play for one ever? Answer that.

This year was St. Edmond's first trip to the dome. Is it really that irritating to you? What grinds your gears about that fact? Was once too many times for them?

Yes, I really don't think they all irritated you, but you're saying it did anyways just to be saying it. That just makes it unnecessary, is all.

 

[printit]

So what you are saying Printit is there is some truth to Blameit's statement that private schools are open enrollment for the wealthy

That statement is ridiculous: EVERY student can open enroll, it is their choice right now. Regina does have tuition assitance programs for those with the financial need. AGAIN EVERY STUDENT IN EVERY DISTRICT CAN OPEN ENROLL. It is not tied exclusively to rich students at private schools.

 

[rkhemp]

I think you are missing his point. Any student with any social back ground can open enroll to any public school they want. However, it is a financial burden to enroll at a private school, hence the percentage of students who attend private schools who come from sound financial house holds is much higher than that of a public school.

A typical public school may have 5% of their students that reside in another school district. A typical private school has 100% of their students that reside in another school district.

Some schools benefit more from open enrollment, but to think that gives public schools the same advantages as private schools in heavily populated areas of the state is pretty silly.

 

[IronFist]

Go with a multiplier. As close to a perfect solution as there is.

 

[printit]

I disagree. I don't want to get off point, because I like the ideas rolling around, but there are ways if a family wants a catholic education to get it done without being rich. If you are switching to play a sport, there are so many options in this area, why choose the catholic school with price tag, go to one of the free ones (there are even a few wealthy kids at local public schools.) I view the price tag as a disadvantage for Regina in this area. That is my opinoin. How is it silly to say West Branch, which is 8 miles from Regina, has many families that are most likely employed IN Iowa City and choosing to live in a small town, has FREE open enrollment, is strategically located near all the same athletic benefits from the U as Regina, has the same benefits? Do they have a higher free/reduced rate than regina, probably. Do they have more kids they have to service on IEP's, sure. Does West Branch have any advantage over Columbus Junction? Do they have any advantage over Wapello? Do they have any advantage over Eddyville Blakesburg because of their location and proximity to IC and open enrollment. YES, they do. Put in the multiplier, but admit that towns close to Cities also have advantages over towns that are not located in urban areas. It's fine when WB goes to the dome year after year after year with those absolute advantages, but not for Regina.

This post was edited on 1/28 2:13 PM by printit

This post was edited on 1/28 3:17 PM by printit

 

[clonesisu10]

Even with a multiplier: It will not fix your problem.
Dowling will be in 4A and has a good chance to win the state title every year.

Xavier, Heelen and Assumption will be in 3A (their enrollment numbers would still be under 700 at 1.25 multiplier) and will have a great chance of winning the state title.

Regina would likely be 2A and have a great chance of winning the state title.

St. Albert would be 1A and would have a great chance of winning the state title.

So even if you have the multiplier and these schools get moved up slightly, then what will you blame it on when they continue to win state titles because they work hard.

And if you apply to one of these private school you have to apply it to all of the. How fair is that to Waterloo Columbus, Unity, etc.. Schools that are struggling where they are now. They talk about how private schools are winning all the time, but they never talk about the private schools that are struggling.

How about if you win a state title, then you move up the next cycle for the 2 year period.

 

[printit]

I'll add this to what I said, because I do feel like this goes in circles. I don't mind the multiplier, if we extend the open enrollment "sit" period. It won't cure the ones that "move" to play, but I believe those are extreme cases and not the norm.

 

[pmknicks]

Originally posted by clonesisu10:

Even with a multiplier: It will not fix your problem.
Dowling will be in 4A and has a good chance to win the state title every year.

Xavier, Heelen and Assumption will be in 3A (their enrollment numbers would still be under 700 at 1.25 multiplier) and will have a great chance of winning the state title.

Regina would likely be 2A and have a great chance of winning the state title.

St. Albert would be 1A and would have a great chance of winning the state title.

So even if you have the multiplier and these schools get moved up slightly, then what will you blame it on when they continue to win state titles because they work hard.

And if you apply to one of these private school you have to apply it to all of the. How fair is that to Waterloo Columbus, Unity, etc.. Schools that are struggling where they are now. They talk about how private schools are winning all the time, but they never talk about the private schools that are struggling.

How about if you win a state title, then you move up the next cycle for the 2 year period.

Excellent post. Last time the multiplier was discussed at length by the IAHSAA very few teams would have changed classes. I believe that was using a 1.35 multiplier, and only 5 teams changed classes. So, just understand, even if it is used, it may not make a difference in where teams fall.

To comment on the 'if you win a title you move up'. How is that fair to the kids who were playing on a senior dominated bunch that had very little to do with winning the title? That average bunch then gets crushed the next two years because the senior class before them had an awesome group of kids.

Some states use the 'negative multiplier' Meaning, they drop enrollment based on Socio-economic status. I believe Oklahoma and North Dakota. Last time that was checked I believe it was Des Moines North and Des Moines Hoover would have dropped to 2A football. Not sure that is a viable method.

Speaking of schools like Des Moines North. If you are trying to implement a rule to level the playing field for private v public, what do you do to level the playing field for those public schools who clearly have no chance of sustained success. Is it really fair for Des Moines North, Sioux City West, the Davenport Schools and the Council Bluff schools to play Valley, Bettendorf, Sioux City East, City High or other schools where poverty is not a big issue.

Historically the bottom two tier of counties have really struggled to win at a high rate on the state level (although 8 man has helped). Chances are that their higher rate of poverty keeps them from excelling. Look at basketball, is it fair for teams from Paige or Fremont county to play the watered down teams from Sioux County (I say watered down because teams like Rock Valley and Boyden Hull have won multiple state titles when 50% of their best players go to Christian Schools from their first day of kindergarten)? When they do play at the state tournament in BB those southern tier counties generally get drilled

It will be VERY difficult to get a multiplier passed as long as their is open enrollment. Additionally, many states that do have a multiplier are in constant litigation battle, not sure Iowa wants that battle.



This post was edited on 1/28 4:26 PM by pmknicks

 

[usfhawk]

If a multiplier doesn't change anything then do it. Public schools can no longer whine saying things aren't fair and private schools still can compete. No more whining.

 

[pmknicks]

Do you really think that will stop the outcry? And how do you deal with the other disparities. If we are truly about creating a level playing field then we better do something about public schools as well.

How do we make an even field between Valley, Bettendorf, etc, and DM North, SC West, and Davenport. Between Cedar Falls and the Waterloo schools.

 

[Cardinal2012]

Originally posted by pmknicks:

Do you really think that will stop the outcry? And how do you deal with the other disparities. If we are truly about creating a level playing field then we better do something about public schools as well.

How do we make an even field between Valley, Bettendorf, etc, and DM North, SC West, and Davenport. Between Cedar Falls and the Waterloo schools.

Make 2 4A classes 4A and 4B where they are divided based on a combination of past 5 years performance, past years performance, returning tackles and int's percentage (an official stat keeper will have to be in place, shouldn't be a problem at the 4A level), returning total offense percentage, and a slight weighting of what division you played in the previous year/years (4A vs. 4B).

It would be easiest to have 48 class 4 teams.
24 Class 4A and 4B each.

Regular Season will consist of 10 games. 2 weeks of inter-class games 4A vs. 4B (or 3A), 3 weeks of non-district games, and then 5 weeks of district games with 6 teams per district obviously. Playoffs will consist of the #1 and #2 finisher from each district with 8 (eight) teams making the playoffs not 32.

Problems this solves(or helps):
Assists in leveling the playing field.
The IAHSAA makes even more money so they're happy.
Making the playoffs is a real accomplishment again. (8/24 is 33% 32/48 is 66%)

Problems this creates:
Could be some serious mileage between games.
Extra class makes some people feel like everyone is getting a medal because they can't win in the current system.
Other problems that I don't realize.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Nice job of staying on topic for the most part.

 

[pmknicks]

Interesting concept Cardinal. How do you handle the economic disparity in 3A on down though.

 

[cloudwatcher]

As I have said a few times, "PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE OPEN ENROLLMENT FOR THE WEALTHY"

b) Wanna bet on your quote above?

Regina will dominate 1A. Dominate.
Xavier, Heelan, or Assumption will win 3A.
Dowling in 4A.

If 2 of the classes are won by privates, then that is a majority when you look at the percentages.

21 competing private schools in Iowa. 2 of them win a title. Meaning, 10% of all private schools won a title.

2013: 33% of all private schools who participate in FB played in the championship game. 25% of them won a title.

You tell me if the field is level.
originally posted by Blame It




I will start with a simple fix to the multiplier idea, tie it to free and reduced lunch for everybody. Apparently the "Wealth Factor" is a big difference maker in the talent level of a football player. I would assume this applies to both private and public. That way public schools with low free and reduced lunch numbers also have to use a multiplier. I don't know the numbers but I would guess Solon or CCA might have lower numbers while WB or West Liberty might have higher numbers. Don't know for sure just using as an example.

While I don't agree with Blame It's post this would seem the most logical thing to do if you are going to use a multiplier. Thoughts?


Now...on to completely dissecting Blame It's post : ) For the sake of conversation I will use Regina and WB as an example of how I disagree with the post. No disrespect here. Just my thoughts, and I know Blame drinks bear blood for breakfast, so thought it would be fun.


1. Regina was a private school for all the years WB was kicking their ass. What has changed in the last 5 years? Same type of kid at both schools right? Why has the power shifted from WB to Regina in football? Is it really the kids or is it something else? I mean WB didn't just beat Regina..they piss pounded them for a long time. I would guess coach Pedersons record against them is 15-5 or something crazy like that. What changed?


2. Apparently the wealthy athletes only excel in football. Because until a few weeks ago Regina had not beat WB in any other sport recently except for Football. Several years since the boys beat them in Basketball until a few weeks ago, knocked the baseball team out of playoffs a few years ago, until recently they have dominated Regina in Volleyball. Just beat the in girls basketball. They have it done it more than once and not so long ago. The field may not be level but apparently the Diamond, and Court are. Why is it only football?

3. I don't want to hear about the talent difference between Regina and WB. In 2012 that WB team had from top to bottom the most talent in 1A and Blame knows it!! So why did they lose to Regina twice? I'll leave that for others to ponder, I think it is because of WB ducking hard games in non district matchups and them not being prepared to play at the level of Regina. The Regals go schedule the best team in 3A every year. Not because it's an easy game, or they think they can win, but because they are in it to win State Championships, not district titles. If you don't believe me look at 2010 and 2011. Don't schedule then 2A Regina as a non district game (why not play the best and see where you need to be) then go get beat in the Semi-finals. You can cruise through district play and playoffs if you have a talented team. When you get to the Dome everybody is talented. You better have tested yourself somewhere along the way.

4. Finally. Can anybody tell me why this "private school problem" only exist in football? Why isn't this happening in Basketball, Volleyball, Baseball, etc? I know some private schools win in those sports from time to time but it's not like a Catholic school is winning in every single class. I am going to leave soccer out of it because so many smaller public schools do not offer a soccer program. Honest question, it does seem strange and no one has ever come up with a good explanation, including me.

 

[pmknicks]

Cloudwatcher, while I have been against any kind of multiplier I would debate your theory that it only happens in Football. I would agree with what I think you are saying is that a great, dedicated coaching staff can make a huge difference. I do remember when Cook was hired that the Regina crew was not very complimentary of the hire on Iowa Preps, turned out ok for Regina. (Also, check back up the thread about using free and reduced as a 'negative multiplier' as it was mentioned above)

1. How many volleyball titles has Western Christian won over the years? 13 (of course, Western's youth program is incredible, not sure any school matches it in volleyball)

2. Heelan won 3 straight in boys basketball 09, 10, 11. Plus a volleyball title or two.

3. In 3A girls BB 5 of last 6 titles are private school champions. Western Christian 2 time defending champ in 2A

4. Dubuque Wahlert was the force in volleyball prior to Western's dominance.

5. Last year in 3A girls golf, top 3 teams were private schools, year prior top 2 in 2A were private schools.

6. In state track last year 2 of 4 girls champions were private school

7. Boys basketball 2A, 2009 (2nd, 3rd and 4th all Private) 3A champion private

8. 2010 Boys 2A 1st and 3rd private, 3A 1st and 3rd private

9. 2011 4 of 8 2A schools private, 3A Champion private, 1A private champion

10. In 2010 and 2011 2 of 4 boys basketball champions were private school

11. In boys golf 4 of last 5 champs in 1A were private, 5 of last 5 in 2A were private

The dominance is not limited to one sport by any means. Western Christian has 30 state titles over the past 30 years or so in 6 different sports.


All that said, I am a public school guy.



This post was edited on 1/29 7:36 AM by pmknicks