That makes much more sense. I couldn't understand how an umpire wouldn't know the rule if asked. Mark Harris is one of the finest umpires in western Iowa if not the state. He umpires both high school and college baseball and I have NO doubt he would have informed the coach if asked. I still can't understand if there was any doubt about Rohfles why the coach would make the pitching change. I thought Borchers was their number 1 all season and it didn't look like he was struggling that bad but I was not at the game.
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Heelan/LeMars Forfeit?
- Thread starter IowaBanker
- Start date
I am going to counter Counter-Point's point. Ha ha. Actually though, I would think the opposite. That is just me. I am not into placing blame, it is a bad situation regardless. However, if pitching 9 innings is a rarity, then I would think there would be more focus on the rule. The coach may say, wow, the kid had to throw 9 innings, I wonder what the rule is?? Then he may look it up to remind himself. Ok, he has 7 left, does he need x number of days rest? I am speaking about after the 9 inning game or before the sub-state game, not during when all the commotion is taking place. If people think this is getting too much hype, wait and see if Heelan wins the thing!
First off, a lot of unnecessary things have been said and insinuated on this thread. Let's just look at the facts.
1. I have coached against Coach Ecstaine. He's a good coach and person. To say he did this intentionally is absurd. In a rare situation with emotions at record levels he lost track of the rule. He'd be the first one to tell you that and has accepted responsibility for it. Should he have researched the situation before the game, yes. Again he'd be the first one to tell you that and is something our staff does regularly.
2. Le Mars did win the game, but to say Heelan doesn't deserve this is ridiculous. A rule which is not a judgement call was unintentionally broken, but still broken. Although Le Mars wins the game, Heelan gets the forfeit and moves on
3. Whether on not it was noticed during or after the game is not a factor. This issue would have come up and been rectified.
Nobody wins here, Le Mars didn't mean for this to happen and Heelan did play by the rules. As sad as this situation is the shock needs time to fade away and it's time to move on. Congrats to all the Bulldog players. You were a good team to coach against. As your coach told you, if this is the worst thing that is going to happen to you in life, you're lucky. Sports has a way of transcending things that happen in life. Although there is much passion and emotion put into our sporting activities we must remember in the end it is just a game. Aside from this I'm sure the Le Mars players will tell you the season was a blast and gave them many positive memories to recall. Congrats on your season, you played your games well. Now go make your mark in life..................that's what really counts..
1. I have coached against Coach Ecstaine. He's a good coach and person. To say he did this intentionally is absurd. In a rare situation with emotions at record levels he lost track of the rule. He'd be the first one to tell you that and has accepted responsibility for it. Should he have researched the situation before the game, yes. Again he'd be the first one to tell you that and is something our staff does regularly.
2. Le Mars did win the game, but to say Heelan doesn't deserve this is ridiculous. A rule which is not a judgement call was unintentionally broken, but still broken. Although Le Mars wins the game, Heelan gets the forfeit and moves on
3. Whether on not it was noticed during or after the game is not a factor. This issue would have come up and been rectified.
Nobody wins here, Le Mars didn't mean for this to happen and Heelan did play by the rules. As sad as this situation is the shock needs time to fade away and it's time to move on. Congrats to all the Bulldog players. You were a good team to coach against. As your coach told you, if this is the worst thing that is going to happen to you in life, you're lucky. Sports has a way of transcending things that happen in life. Although there is much passion and emotion put into our sporting activities we must remember in the end it is just a game. Aside from this I'm sure the Le Mars players will tell you the season was a blast and gave them many positive memories to recall. Congrats on your season, you played your games well. Now go make your mark in life..................that's what really counts..
Originally posted by yankees19:
... I don't care if people hate me. people hate successful people...
Successful?
ok.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves....
Rillo,
Last time I heard the saying was there is no such thing as a stupid question. There can be a stupid answer and probably the most stupid of all would be to call a question stupid especially without giving any sort of reason why. That would tell me it isn't a stupid question, just a question that you:
A. don't like.
B. don't know the answer.
C. don't like the answer.
D. I'll stop...I could think of a half dozen valid other reasons.
You didn't have the nards to say what questions you thought were stupid but I'll have the nards to say why I asked them. I was simply trying to separate the chaff from the wheat. Lots of conflicting BS was being written and I was simply trying to get people to expand on what really happened.
Bottom line. I'm not impress with either coach about this. I've talked with several coaches about this and all were in agreement that they have a system they use BEFORE the game to formally identify who is available and how long they can pitch. This information is formally written and multiple people assigned to make sure it doesn't get forgotten in the heat of the battle. This issue is a sign of poor organization skills for BOTH coaches. I say both coaches because I've been told by the same coaches I talked with that particularly for key games they do the same thing for their opposition so they can have their team prepared to face the pitchers they will likely face. Heelan knew about the LeMars game Monday night and the game stats were public information. If Heelan didn't check this it is just poor game preparation on their part. According to one poster the parents/fans in the crowd knew there was a problem and were talking about it while the game was in progress. Guess what....BOTH coaches just got outcoached not by each other but by the nonpaid, nonprofessional people in the crowd.
Congratualtions to both the LeMars and Heelan kids greats season and too bad it had to end like this.
Last time I heard the saying was there is no such thing as a stupid question. There can be a stupid answer and probably the most stupid of all would be to call a question stupid especially without giving any sort of reason why. That would tell me it isn't a stupid question, just a question that you:
A. don't like.
B. don't know the answer.
C. don't like the answer.
D. I'll stop...I could think of a half dozen valid other reasons.
You didn't have the nards to say what questions you thought were stupid but I'll have the nards to say why I asked them. I was simply trying to separate the chaff from the wheat. Lots of conflicting BS was being written and I was simply trying to get people to expand on what really happened.
Bottom line. I'm not impress with either coach about this. I've talked with several coaches about this and all were in agreement that they have a system they use BEFORE the game to formally identify who is available and how long they can pitch. This information is formally written and multiple people assigned to make sure it doesn't get forgotten in the heat of the battle. This issue is a sign of poor organization skills for BOTH coaches. I say both coaches because I've been told by the same coaches I talked with that particularly for key games they do the same thing for their opposition so they can have their team prepared to face the pitchers they will likely face. Heelan knew about the LeMars game Monday night and the game stats were public information. If Heelan didn't check this it is just poor game preparation on their part. According to one poster the parents/fans in the crowd knew there was a problem and were talking about it while the game was in progress. Guess what....BOTH coaches just got outcoached not by each other but by the nonpaid, nonprofessional people in the crowd.
Congratualtions to both the LeMars and Heelan kids greats season and too bad it had to end like this.
Leemark - absolutely 100% couldn't agree more with your post!! Very well stated. I am the mother of an 8th grade boy who did very little pitching for his JV team this summer and EVEN I UNDERSTOOD the pitching rules. (not rocket science) While not suggesting the Le Mars coaches did anything intentional - I do have a hard time understanding how absolutely no one at that game from Le Mars questioned the entry of a player who had just pitched a 9 inning game. My heart breaks for the Le Mars players and, at the same time, hopes to watch the Heelan team have a great tournament.
This post was edited on 7/27 11:30 AM by JAD-Cat
This post was edited on 7/27 11:30 AM by JAD-Cat
Here's a question for you: are you really saying that the Heelan coach was at fault here too?Originally posted by ghost80:
Rillo,
Last time I heard the saying was there is no such thing as a stupid question. There can be a stupid answer and probably the most stupid of all would be to call a question stupid especially without giving any sort of reason why. That would tell me it isn't a stupid question, just a question that you:
A. don't like.
B. don't know the answer.
C. don't like the answer.
D. I'll stop...I could think of a half dozen valid other reasons.
You didn't have the nards to say what questions you thought were stupid but I'll have the nards to say why I asked them. I was simply trying to separate the chaff from the wheat. Lots of conflicting BS was being written and I was simply trying to get people to expand on what really happened.
Bottom line. I'm not impress with either coach about this. I've talked with several coaches about this and all were in agreement that they have a system they use BEFORE the game to formally identify who is available and how long they can pitch. This information is formally written and multiple people assigned to make sure it doesn't get forgotten in the heat of the battle. This issue is a sign of poor organization skills for BOTH coaches. I say both coaches because I've been told by the same coaches I talked with that particularly for key games they do the same thing for their opposition so they can have their team prepared to face the pitchers they will likely face. Heelan knew about the LeMars game Monday night and the game stats were public information. If Heelan didn't check this it is just poor game preparation on their part. According to one poster the parents/fans in the crowd knew there was a problem and were talking about it while the game was in progress. Guess what....BOTH coaches just got outcoached not by each other but by the nonpaid, nonprofessional people in the crowd.
Congratualtions to both the LeMars and Heelan kids greats season and too bad it had to end like this.
wow.
The Heelan coach is obviously in no way responsible for LeMars using an illegal player. I said in my original post that problem is all on the LeMars coach and nothing has changed that. If he doesn't use an illegal player none of this happens including the cluster fuster after the game with the LeMars players being named state qualifiers including having their pictures taken with the state qualifier banner.
Could the Heelan coach have helped avoid the bad situation which happened after the game? Yes, and the fact that he didn't put the brakes on the illegal player when the violation occurred tells me he isn't doing part of his coaching job well. Had he adequately prepared for this game he would have realized the problem and addressed the situation immediately. Not only would that have avoided the fiasco afterwards he would have been doing the Heelan team a favor as well. With a state berth on the line you want to get the game wrapped up as soon as possible. Things can happen: a pitcher injures his arm, someone gets hit by a line drive or a pitch, a bad slide, someone gets ejected, ect. Nothing good could happen to the Heelan team for playing the extra time after the violation but many bad things could have happened.
What should have happened is what happened when Ottumwa had to forfeit earlier this season when they used an ineligible pitcher. The opposing coach jumped right on it immediately after the violation occurred and addressed the ump with the violation. GAME OVER. Granted, that was a 9 inning in one night violation so it wasn't as complex as this but it also wasn't a playoff game with a state berth on the line. The Heelan coach needed to know exactly who he was facing and how long. The fans apparently had no problems tracking this so why didn't either coach?
I think this situation does not speak well of the overall coaching ability of Heelan's coach that he didn't catch this either BUT that doesn't place the responsibility on him.
Could the Heelan coach have helped avoid the bad situation which happened after the game? Yes, and the fact that he didn't put the brakes on the illegal player when the violation occurred tells me he isn't doing part of his coaching job well. Had he adequately prepared for this game he would have realized the problem and addressed the situation immediately. Not only would that have avoided the fiasco afterwards he would have been doing the Heelan team a favor as well. With a state berth on the line you want to get the game wrapped up as soon as possible. Things can happen: a pitcher injures his arm, someone gets hit by a line drive or a pitch, a bad slide, someone gets ejected, ect. Nothing good could happen to the Heelan team for playing the extra time after the violation but many bad things could have happened.
What should have happened is what happened when Ottumwa had to forfeit earlier this season when they used an ineligible pitcher. The opposing coach jumped right on it immediately after the violation occurred and addressed the ump with the violation. GAME OVER. Granted, that was a 9 inning in one night violation so it wasn't as complex as this but it also wasn't a playoff game with a state berth on the line. The Heelan coach needed to know exactly who he was facing and how long. The fans apparently had no problems tracking this so why didn't either coach?
I think this situation does not speak well of the overall coaching ability of Heelan's coach that he didn't catch this either BUT that doesn't place the responsibility on him.
That is wrong. Coach Osborne does not need to take
any responsibility for what happened with this situation.
He learned of the infraction in the 11th inning and even then
did not know how to address the situation. Seems to me all
we are doing here us trying to place blame on someone. Coach
Eckstaine has already apologized and taken full
responsibility. As a poster indicated earlier whether it was that
night or later in the week someone was going to find out and the
forfeit would of taken place. Why can we not just learn from
this and move on. I hate the fact that it happened but continually
placing blame on people at Heelan is wrong
Oh, that's right, there was blame placed on the umpire as well.
We found out that to be wrong as well. The outcome of the game
was determined by using an illegal player. It happened. The wrongs
were righted. Rolfes should not have pitched. The outcome
Came about because he did. The game would of been different
no matter what anyone says if he had not pitched. My
Thought was if Borchers would have pitched the 7th inning LeMars
Could have won 3-2. But that did not happen. So the outcome was different
and here we are continuing to place blame. Both teams deserve to
be in Des Moines, but that is not happening.
any responsibility for what happened with this situation.
He learned of the infraction in the 11th inning and even then
did not know how to address the situation. Seems to me all
we are doing here us trying to place blame on someone. Coach
Eckstaine has already apologized and taken full
responsibility. As a poster indicated earlier whether it was that
night or later in the week someone was going to find out and the
forfeit would of taken place. Why can we not just learn from
this and move on. I hate the fact that it happened but continually
placing blame on people at Heelan is wrong
Oh, that's right, there was blame placed on the umpire as well.
We found out that to be wrong as well. The outcome of the game
was determined by using an illegal player. It happened. The wrongs
were righted. Rolfes should not have pitched. The outcome
Came about because he did. The game would of been different
no matter what anyone says if he had not pitched. My
Thought was if Borchers would have pitched the 7th inning LeMars
Could have won 3-2. But that did not happen. So the outcome was different
and here we are continuing to place blame. Both teams deserve to
be in Des Moines, but that is not happening.
I have coached for many years and totally understand if Coach Osborne wanted to try and win the game without winning on a forfeit. He has to worry about his teams mentality moving on to the State Tournament and who wants to win the game that way. There is no way you will ever make me believe he didn't know right away, or until a parent came and told him. I think he played on and would deal with the infraction if he lost. You could only imagine what would have been posted and talked about had he ended the game as soon as the illegal pitcher threw one pitch. I am certainly not a Heelen fan by a long shot but don't blame the Coach at all for trying to give his players a chance to win the game. He could have used that for great motivation going forward. They used an illegal pitcher and we still beat a great team. I think that would have gave them great confidence moving forward. Now, he has to deal with the fact that they lost and still made the tournament but I think the risk was worth it because they are still moving on.
I've been seeing on Twitter today that this morning, on OTL on ESPN, the LeMars/Heelan game was discussed or mentioned or something along those lines.
Cubs 1910,
If you are right about the Heelan coach then he bears a lot more responsibility for the mess that happened after the game. If you were driving your car down the road and someone pulled out in front of you and there is an accident they are at fault EXCEPT if you have the last chance to avoid the accident but fail to do so, then you are at fault too. If Osborne knew about the illegal player but for whatever reason to keep on playing well.. he had the last chance to avoid the wreck AFTER the game but failed to do so.
If this "wreck" was on ESPN I'm guessing that after the game naming LeMars the winner and awarding them the playoff banner only to later strip them was the story to ESPN....not a simple forfeit. If the Heelan coach trots out on the field after the 3rd illegal pitch to stop the game (like the Waukee coach did against Ottumwa) I doubt there is any story ESPN would be interesed in. I even highly doubt the suggestion that Heelan would be highly criticized for stopping the game if Osborne would have done so. Waukee sure hasn't been criticized for stopping the game against Ottumwa.
If Osborne knew about the illegal player during the game and chose to do nothing he is playing the role of being an enabler to illegal play. If the LeMars coach didn't know and Heelan won it outright then the LeMars coach might never know the rule. If the LeMars coach did know yet Heelan still won, the LeMars coach might think he did get away with it (but it didn't work) and try it again. Either way...if Cub 1910 is right and Osborne knew...he played the role of enabler (or accessory) to the mess that happened after the game.
If you are right about the Heelan coach then he bears a lot more responsibility for the mess that happened after the game. If you were driving your car down the road and someone pulled out in front of you and there is an accident they are at fault EXCEPT if you have the last chance to avoid the accident but fail to do so, then you are at fault too. If Osborne knew about the illegal player but for whatever reason to keep on playing well.. he had the last chance to avoid the wreck AFTER the game but failed to do so.
If this "wreck" was on ESPN I'm guessing that after the game naming LeMars the winner and awarding them the playoff banner only to later strip them was the story to ESPN....not a simple forfeit. If the Heelan coach trots out on the field after the 3rd illegal pitch to stop the game (like the Waukee coach did against Ottumwa) I doubt there is any story ESPN would be interesed in. I even highly doubt the suggestion that Heelan would be highly criticized for stopping the game if Osborne would have done so. Waukee sure hasn't been criticized for stopping the game against Ottumwa.
If Osborne knew about the illegal player during the game and chose to do nothing he is playing the role of being an enabler to illegal play. If the LeMars coach didn't know and Heelan won it outright then the LeMars coach might never know the rule. If the LeMars coach did know yet Heelan still won, the LeMars coach might think he did get away with it (but it didn't work) and try it again. Either way...if Cub 1910 is right and Osborne knew...he played the role of enabler (or accessory) to the mess that happened after the game.
The mess occurred due to the LeMars coach not doing a basic part of his job. To deflect this to anyone else is silly. Coaching 101, know who is available to play. It is a pre game preparation, whether it was determined on the first pitch or the last pitch it is still 101. Would it have been better to have it done in the middle of the game? perhaps, how would the crowd have reacted? it is a heated rivalry and who knows how the fans would respond, I think they would have been fine but all it takes is a few knucklehead fans who confront an umpire, opposing coach, opposing player, throw things at a bus out of town etc. we will never know if this was the best way or not. The one thing we do know, coach dropped the ball on his pitching rules.
seems like you only care about heelan winning at all costs. I would be proud to be associated with you.
a good and honest coach would have said something before pitch was thrown and win game on field instead of waiting until he lost to do something. what is he teaching kids. little league coaches do this in my area during little league tournaments on weekends. we have pitching limits during these tournaments. the coaches and umps get it right before it is to late. we teach kids to do things to right way. sometimes you learn more from losing a game and doing what is morally right.
I know you answer already so I will answer it for you. not umps are responsible why do we have umps? to make sure rules are followed by both team during game. not waiting until game is over
umps and coaches could have looked at rule and determined if player was eligible to pitch before it was to late. this situation had an easy in game fix.
good teams and players do not care who is pitching against them. they find ways to win the right way. you want to leave room for your coach to fix stats to benefit his team needs for next weeks. look at our responds to entering stats after every game. if lemars did not enter stats from Monday game until sunday how who heelan coach and roger barr know pitcher was not eligible. you would have fixed stats to make it look like someone else pitched. right. if he knew player was not eligible, why did he wait until after he pitched. bush league
we never had pitching limits before 1995. so why now. your against changing quik stats and other rules
mlb and other teams post who throws next.
your quote from other post:
The quikstats after the game is dumb I say make you do it by every Sunday. Why should an opposing coach who was at my game get to know who threw for the other team Monday? You can change gameplay based on who is throwing for other team. If they don't scout my team or can't that's too damn bad that's their own fault. But they shouldn't get an advantage etc they got by 10 years ago without it so why do they think they NEED to know now. It is a great tool though and helps more than bad dont get me wrong that's just one thing though.
"Gold medals aren't really made of gold. They're made of sweat, determination, and a hard-to-find alloy called guts." ? Dan Gable7/28 5:40 PM | IP: Logged
a good and honest coach would have said something before pitch was thrown and win game on field instead of waiting until he lost to do something. what is he teaching kids. little league coaches do this in my area during little league tournaments on weekends. we have pitching limits during these tournaments. the coaches and umps get it right before it is to late. we teach kids to do things to right way. sometimes you learn more from losing a game and doing what is morally right.
I know you answer already so I will answer it for you. not umps are responsible why do we have umps? to make sure rules are followed by both team during game. not waiting until game is over
umps and coaches could have looked at rule and determined if player was eligible to pitch before it was to late. this situation had an easy in game fix.
good teams and players do not care who is pitching against them. they find ways to win the right way. you want to leave room for your coach to fix stats to benefit his team needs for next weeks. look at our responds to entering stats after every game. if lemars did not enter stats from Monday game until sunday how who heelan coach and roger barr know pitcher was not eligible. you would have fixed stats to make it look like someone else pitched. right. if he knew player was not eligible, why did he wait until after he pitched. bush league
we never had pitching limits before 1995. so why now. your against changing quik stats and other rules
mlb and other teams post who throws next.
your quote from other post:
The quikstats after the game is dumb I say make you do it by every Sunday. Why should an opposing coach who was at my game get to know who threw for the other team Monday? You can change gameplay based on who is throwing for other team. If they don't scout my team or can't that's too damn bad that's their own fault. But they shouldn't get an advantage etc they got by 10 years ago without it so why do they think they NEED to know now. It is a great tool though and helps more than bad dont get me wrong that's just one thing though.
"Gold medals aren't really made of gold. They're made of sweat, determination, and a hard-to-find alloy called guts." ? Dan Gable7/28 5:40 PM | IP: Logged
I still don't know how this is going on umpires. Yes in ideal world it would of been great if Heelan coach knew he pitched 9 innings on Monday and maybe he didn't know the rule either. This rule is between Coaches and ADs no umpire is to be involved. I do not know why you continue to bring umpires into this because you still have never answered my question I posted days ago. Until you newer that doesn't fall on the boys in Blue. This isn't winning at all costs this is a rules violation that they were aware of. Like I stated before a game played in Sioux city Monday pitcher A throws 9 innings. Now he has to sit Tuesday Wednesday. But on Tuesday in Dubuque 300 miles away he pitches 7 innings his coach hasn't had access to Internet to post quikstats. Then oh my they go to Lamoni southern border of iowa and he pitches 7 innings on Wednesday. They win all 3 games. Based on your stupidity the Tuesday and Wednesday coaches have had no access to quikstats and no idea what happened in other parts of the state. Later they post the quikstats and realize he was illegal they are supposed to take the loses? Are you serious? Really? How dumb does that sound to you? Also like my other question how is umpire on Tuesday or Wednesday supposed to know what happened 300 miles away? Thus not their call!!!! Answer these with a logical response would love to hear it. Please don't post jibberish and write in sentences please.
Everything that ends with Heerlen winning will sound dumb to Yankee. Comparing Dads coaching little league to high school coaches is a new twist which makes me chuckle. Here is the reality the LeMars coach was the person who caused this and he has owned that. Anything else is avoided if he does his job properly.
what do you thinks umps jobs are if not to implement all ihsaa rules if not to enforce ihsaa rules, why do they have rules to become certified.. in your woirld roger barr would detrermnine all winners. wait he already does. it's not what you know but who you associate with.
This post was edited on 7/29 10:28 AM by yankees19
This post was edited on 7/29 10:28 AM by yankees19
LeMars coach has stepped up and taken 100% responsibility, correct? If so, why is this still a debatable topic, yankee? Regardless of whether you like the rule or not, it was broken. LeMars coach has accepted full responsibility and has accepted the consequences of breaking the rule. Sounds like you should follow.
CidHawk, you are right on the money. I am sure Yankee thinks a game the LeMars girls "won" via forfeit against Sioux City North was perfectly legit. LeMars lost the game 5-2, but Sioux City North used an illegal player. Took a week to figure out but was reversed. I am sure the umpires should have known that a girl on North was illegal. Then again why didn't LeMars's coach know she was illegal and stopped it immediatly. Why didn't the fans know she was illegal. Not taking anything away from the LeMars girls as they had a terrific season, but was it their job to know that North had an illegal player ? In the boys game, would this have been different or the backlash as bad had it not been Heelan ? What if it was MOC-Floyd Valley ? How about if this game had been played in Sioux City ? I can only imagine the backlash if it had happened there. The things that are being said on twitter right now about the Heelan coach and Athletic director are atrocious. Integrity and respect have apparently been tossed out the window.
Yank....you are upset..we get that. It is not the Heelan coaches responsibility to know the rule for LeMars. Heelan played by the rules, LeMars did not.
At the start of the season, should every coach that plays leMars call the school and verify that all the LeMars kids are academically eligible? No. That is the Bulldogs coach's responsibility. Just like he should have known he could not throw that kid that night.
Unfortunately we live in a society of blame..you have blamed the Heelan coaches..the umps ...the Iowa high school athletic association...I'm sure there are others but I don't care to go back and check.
Bottom line...if the LeMars coach understood the rules and held to those rules we would not be having this discussion. It was 100% on him...no one and I mean no one shares any of the blame. Time to move on.
At the start of the season, should every coach that plays leMars call the school and verify that all the LeMars kids are academically eligible? No. That is the Bulldogs coach's responsibility. Just like he should have known he could not throw that kid that night.
Unfortunately we live in a society of blame..you have blamed the Heelan coaches..the umps ...the Iowa high school athletic association...I'm sure there are others but I don't care to go back and check.
Bottom line...if the LeMars coach understood the rules and held to those rules we would not be having this discussion. It was 100% on him...no one and I mean no one shares any of the blame. Time to move on.
Wow. Is english your 2nd language yank?
Let it die. You obviously have a dog in the fight here and aren't mature enough to deal with the consequences of a mistake being made. Intentional or not, there is one, ONE person to blame and that rest solely on the Head Coach of LeMars. Period. End of story.
Heelen's coach did nothing wrong regardless of anything he may or may not have done or when it was done. It also is NOT the umpire's responsibility either.
It has been spelled out clearly numerous times.
It is now time to stop feeding the troll and people should no longer respond to this poster or anyone else with an axe to grind. There really is nothing further to discuss.
Let it die. You obviously have a dog in the fight here and aren't mature enough to deal with the consequences of a mistake being made. Intentional or not, there is one, ONE person to blame and that rest solely on the Head Coach of LeMars. Period. End of story.
Heelen's coach did nothing wrong regardless of anything he may or may not have done or when it was done. It also is NOT the umpire's responsibility either.
It has been spelled out clearly numerous times.
It is now time to stop feeding the troll and people should no longer respond to this poster or anyone else with an axe to grind. There really is nothing further to discuss.
I just want to reiterate that yankees is NOT from LeMars.
The members of the community of LeMars have accepted what happened, Coach Eckstaine has taken complete responsibility, and we are all moving on. The stuff that is spewing from Yankees should NOT be associated with LeMars like I can tell it is by some of the posters replies to him. Please do not make this connection. He is making our proud school and community look like sore, whiny losers, when in reality we have all accepted the situation.
We do not blame Coach Osborne. We do not blame Heelan. We do not blame Sergeant Bluff-Luton like some people on twitter are saying. We do not blame the umpires. Our coaching staff made an error, and because of this we were forced to forfeit. Simple as that.
All of this ridiculous conversation is taking away from what really happened: a bunch of high school guys went out and played one hell of a ball game. The end result was bizarre, but it shouldn't change how hard both teams worked or the heart they displayed this season.
Good luck to Heelan tomorrow.
The members of the community of LeMars have accepted what happened, Coach Eckstaine has taken complete responsibility, and we are all moving on. The stuff that is spewing from Yankees should NOT be associated with LeMars like I can tell it is by some of the posters replies to him. Please do not make this connection. He is making our proud school and community look like sore, whiny losers, when in reality we have all accepted the situation.
We do not blame Coach Osborne. We do not blame Heelan. We do not blame Sergeant Bluff-Luton like some people on twitter are saying. We do not blame the umpires. Our coaching staff made an error, and because of this we were forced to forfeit. Simple as that.
All of this ridiculous conversation is taking away from what really happened: a bunch of high school guys went out and played one hell of a ball game. The end result was bizarre, but it shouldn't change how hard both teams worked or the heart they displayed this season.
Good luck to Heelan tomorrow.
The people from LeMars have handled this situation with poise and that includes their coach who stepped forward and displayed class in accepting responsibility.
Like it or not the Heelan coach also made mistakes that the LeMars coach cannot be held responsible for. I believe he also knew the moment that the illegal player took the mound he was just handed a "Get out of Jail Free Card".
Not only did this action contribute to the fiasco at the end for the LeMars team there is something besides this morality issue. Osborne unnecessarily exposed his team to 5 innings of risk on the eve of the state tournament. Fortunately no players were injured and no players were suspended for even something and little as a dangerous play (in the heat of the battle) which could have earned them a suspension for their first game in DM.
The LeMars coach isn't the only one who made mistakes in this bad situation. He is just the only one big enough to own up to it.
Like it or not the Heelan coach also made mistakes that the LeMars coach cannot be held responsible for. I believe he also knew the moment that the illegal player took the mound he was just handed a "Get out of Jail Free Card".
Not only did this action contribute to the fiasco at the end for the LeMars team there is something besides this morality issue. Osborne unnecessarily exposed his team to 5 innings of risk on the eve of the state tournament. Fortunately no players were injured and no players were suspended for even something and little as a dangerous play (in the heat of the battle) which could have earned them a suspension for their first game in DM.
The LeMars coach isn't the only one who made mistakes in this bad situation. He is just the only one big enough to own up to it.
Does it matter if the Heelan coach knew? It's not his responsibility.. If the LeMars kid throws 1 pitch in the game, and then all of the sudden someone says something, as they noticed the mistake.... the game is still over and Heelan wins by Forfeit.. do they not? All water under the bridget now.. but def. makes for a heated debate... clearly the blame is on the LeMars coach, as the articles pointed out, and coaches were reminded several times that it was their responsibility. If the LeMars coach asked the ump.. then IMO, he knew he wasn't supposed to put that kid in the game... why else ask that question then.. he already knew what the answer was...
In your other post,you asked if LeMars had receive a banner or had got on the bus thinking they had won. If that wasn't dumb enough you then doubled down and proclaimed if that did happen,LeMars should be going to state and"NOT Heelan".LOL Where is it written that a banner and boarding of the big yellow school bus marks the official end of a game? BTW, the game was in LeMars, i doubt they had a bus there. What then, the game isn't officially over until the last player have started their Ford Taurus?Originally posted by ghost80:
Rillo,
Last time I heard the saying was there is no such thing as a stupid question. There can be a stupid answer and probably the most stupid of all would be to call a question stupid especially without giving any sort of reason why. That would tell me it isn't a stupid question, just a question that you:
A. don't like.
B. don't know the answer.
C. don't like the answer.
D. I'll stop...I could think of a half dozen valid other reasons.
You didn't have the nards to say what questions you thought were stupid but I'll have the nards to say why I asked them. I was simply trying to separate the chaff from the wheat. Lots of conflicting BS was being written and I was simply trying to get people to expand on what really happened.
Bottom line. I'm not impress with either coach about this. I've talked with several coaches about this and all were in agreement that they have a system they use BEFORE the game to formally identify who is available and how long they can pitch. This information is formally written and multiple people assigned to make sure it doesn't get forgotten in the heat of the battle. This issue is a sign of poor organization skills for BOTH coaches. I say both coaches because I've been told by the same coaches I talked with that particularly for key games they do the same thing for their opposition so they can have their team prepared to face the pitchers they will likely face. Heelan knew about the LeMars game Monday night and the game stats were public information. If Heelan didn't check this it is just poor game preparation on their part. According to one poster the parents/fans in the crowd knew there was a problem and were talking about it while the game was in progress. Guess what....BOTH coaches just got outcoached not by each other but by the nonpaid, nonprofessional people in the crowd.
Congratualtions to both the LeMars and Heelan kids greats season and too bad it had to end like this.
It's funny you would try to put this absurd notion on the Heelan coach when that is exactly what the LeMars coach did to his pitcher. That's what the rule is for,genius.Originally posted by ghost80:
The people from LeMars have handled this situation with poise and that includes their coach who stepped forward and displayed class in accepting responsibility.
Like it or not the Heelan coach also made mistakes that the LeMars coach cannot be held responsible for. I believe he also knew the moment that the illegal player took the mound he was just handed a "Get out of Jail Free Card".
Not only did this action contribute to the fiasco at the end for the LeMars team there is something besides this morality issue. Osborne unnecessarily exposed his team to 5 innings of risk on the eve of the state tournament. Fortunately no players were injured and no players were suspended for even something and little as a dangerous play (in the heat of the battle) which could have earned them a suspension for their first game in DM.
The LeMars coach isn't the only one who made mistakes in this bad situation. He is just the only one big enough to own up to it.
Ghost... How do "You Know" Coach Osborne knew the moment that an illegal player took the mound, he was just handed a "Get out of jail free card" ? How do "You Know" Coach Osborne unnecessarily exposed his team to 5 innings of risk on the eve of the State Tournament ? Were you there ? Do you "Know" Coach Osborne, or when he actually found out about the pitcher being ineligible ? I keep asking myself as this continues, why is Heelan and it's coaches or administrators being blamed for this wrong ? NWIOWAHawk, gave a great response, and appreciate his perception. He is from LeMars and gets it. I am in no way trying to change a person's view as to who won the game. Final score was 8-5. Actually 3-2 in the 7th (LeMars) before the infraction was committed. In a perfect world we would not be having this discussion. But a RULE was broken, not by Heelan, it's coaches, fans, or athletic director. What does Heelan or Coach Osborne have to own up a mistake to ? If this would not have been caught during the game,
it surely would have been found out eventually. And if it was found out 2 or 3 days after, what would the consencus be then ? Those Heelan people are bad. They are just trying to find a way to win, they will do anything to win. Coach Osborne should apologize for not letting another team get to state. I hate to keep kicking a dead horse in the mouth, but do not believe Heelan, or it's coaches have to own up to anything. They feel incredibly bad as to how this transpired. Unless you are heartless, you feel horrible for the kids and coaches at LeMars. They are very deserving of going to Des Moines. I just wish people would stop bashing our coach and administration. They have taken enough heat for something that had nothing to do with them.
it surely would have been found out eventually. And if it was found out 2 or 3 days after, what would the consencus be then ? Those Heelan people are bad. They are just trying to find a way to win, they will do anything to win. Coach Osborne should apologize for not letting another team get to state. I hate to keep kicking a dead horse in the mouth, but do not believe Heelan, or it's coaches have to own up to anything. They feel incredibly bad as to how this transpired. Unless you are heartless, you feel horrible for the kids and coaches at LeMars. They are very deserving of going to Des Moines. I just wish people would stop bashing our coach and administration. They have taken enough heat for something that had nothing to do with them.
If the Heelan coach knew that the pitcher was illegal and said nothing, he did expose the players on both teams to something unnecessary, more baseball being played with an illegal player. My guess knowing the Heelan coach, he did not know or he would have said something when he found out.
If the rule is that once an illegal player is in the game, the game is over, once you know you state it for the record and move on. I do not know if the Heelan coach knew, nor do I want to speculate. I have talked with him in the past about baseball and he does not strike me as someone who would want to win and advance to state in such a manner.
The LeMars coach stepped up and admitted he screwed up. Took responsibility and the players sound like they really like playing for him.
3 pages or more will not change the outcome and send LeMars to state. Harlan good luck at state and LeMars best of success next year, hope the team has more pitching depth it can rely on to not even have to worry about this rule in 2014.
EDITED: corrected school name, sorry to confuse anyone who read the original post.
This post was edited on 7/30 1:37 PM by baseball31ne
If the rule is that once an illegal player is in the game, the game is over, once you know you state it for the record and move on. I do not know if the Heelan coach knew, nor do I want to speculate. I have talked with him in the past about baseball and he does not strike me as someone who would want to win and advance to state in such a manner.
The LeMars coach stepped up and admitted he screwed up. Took responsibility and the players sound like they really like playing for him.
3 pages or more will not change the outcome and send LeMars to state. Harlan good luck at state and LeMars best of success next year, hope the team has more pitching depth it can rely on to not even have to worry about this rule in 2014.
EDITED: corrected school name, sorry to confuse anyone who read the original post.
This post was edited on 7/30 1:37 PM by baseball31ne
Sorry, I was just talking with a friend of mine and typed Harlan meant Heelan, I will edit my post to reflect, thanks.
Originally posted by acoach#5:
Heelan not Harlan, 2 different schools.
Originally posted by acoach#5:
Heelan not Harlan, 2 different schools.
It's definitely on no one but the LeMars coach, and props to him for stepping up and owning his mistake.
Umpires are not the ones who enforce rules of ineligibility. That's why umpires don't question whether a kid is eligible academically, or whether a kid was ejected in his last game, or if a team bats out of order. Opposing coaches can call it out and take advantage of it, but they are certainly not under any obligation to prevent it. That's just stupid. If a team is going to give you a gift like that, you take it. End of story, no questions asked.
Umpires are not the ones who enforce rules of ineligibility. That's why umpires don't question whether a kid is eligible academically, or whether a kid was ejected in his last game, or if a team bats out of order. Opposing coaches can call it out and take advantage of it, but they are certainly not under any obligation to prevent it. That's just stupid. If a team is going to give you a gift like that, you take it. End of story, no questions asked.
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