General question on rules

[Woobster]

First of all, let me say I am a basketball coach and aside from taking theory of wrestling from Jim Miller back in the day at UNI- I know little about wrestling. I am from Manson where we have excellent wrestling and excellent coaches- here is the question-
I have noticed more and more programs have trouble filling out a lineup, especiall in smaller schools. Why then is an empty bracket 6 points and not just 3? It would seem to me that if we forfeit 3 matches and it costs us 9 points- that we can make up during a meet with three wins- as it is- we need three pins. 6 points being awarded for not being able to fill a weight class just seems to make it so that even if you do have talented kids at your other weights- you get so far behind the 8 ball in the score that you cannot catch up. I'm not sure there is an answer to this but doesn anybody else feel the same way?? I don't know who made the rules of wrestling- but I think they screwed that up ( I know, pretty brazen for a pumpkin pusher to say that)but I've just always thought it.

 

[se xc1]

Not a bad question, but look at it from both pts of view. If you have a kid who pins a kid from another school, then you wrestle them again, with your rules, what would prevent a forfeit? I would rather lose 3 than 6! I think you have to give whatever the best case scenario would be, 6 to keep teams from just not sending someone out there. You don't want to penalize a school for having a full line-up either.

 

[Woobster]

Good point, you are probably right...you have to take into account people using the scoring to their advantage. You are probably right on with your answer- didn't think of that....thanks.

 

[DarkThunder#61]

For a really small example.

A team leads by 5 points going into the last match and could lose by a pin. Say you have a weak weight going into the final match vs a wrestler woh is rated in the top 10 or is very good at pinning (usually go hand-in-hand).

If it were just 3 pts for a forfeited weight, that team could easily just forfeit rather than risk losing the dual.

With 6 pts, they essentially have to wrestle and hope they don't get a fall, unless they really have no one that can wrestle that weight, in which case that's just the way it goes.

 

[Trackn_mat]

In my opinion, there is no excuse for more than half of the open weights I've seen. Sometimes, the only excuse is the coach didn't recruit from the hallway at school enough. Ive seen plenty of times when a JV kid could have filled that weight. No one wants to see a kid in that situation have no success or get nothing out of high school wresting and have no fun. Getting hammered on all the time isn't fun - so send that young man to JV tournament on the weekend. I think forfeiting 6 points is good motivation for coaches to try harder to find someone. The sad fact is though some don't seem to care.

They need to recruit from band, show choir or even basketball if they have to.

 

[Woobster]

I don't know the reason but numbers are way down....we had a sectional at Manson last saturday and really had to work with the time between matches because there just weren't many brackets filled. One kid actually only wrestled once and that was for the championship. I announced the last half of the meet and when we got to the awards there were a number of weight classes with only three kids- we usually announce the top 5 even though only three get medals.
So, I don't know if it's just over our way or if everyone is struggling with numbers.

 

[dadthencoach]

Woobster: That really is a good question. Forfeits are counted as pins in dual meets, but at tournaments, byes (which are the same thing) are counted the same as decisions for team points. Strange.
It's like my favorite weird baseball rule question: Two runners on base, two outs. Lead runner gets picked off base, inning ends. Next inning, the batter who was up when the runner was picked off goes back the plate. Why doesn't the trail runner go back the base he was on?
Strange.
As for the question about numbers, it's a problem everywhere. Big schools, small schools, it doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter who the coach is or what school it is, sometimes it happens.

 

[Trackn_mat]

Rules are changed all the time. Thats a bad one. tournament points for open weights should be the same point value as pins. Numbers go down because the program isn't promoted. It is the coach's job
to make people WANT to be part of the program!

 

[Woobster]

I agree to a certain extent but I don't think, when it comes to numbers, you can discount all that a coach is going against today- do you feel like kids have the same work ethic today as 20 years ago? I don't know how old you are but when I was growing up in the 70's I loved playing sports because it beat going home and being put to work there riding a pitchfork! I think all coaches, not just wrestling, are battling against a force that has crept into our kids that makes it tough to get them out adn to get them to understand all the value that comes from participating in sports.....I know I've seen basketball numbers drop drastically and we have a pretty good program- so yes, the coach needs to work hard to promote their program, but I think they are really up against it these days.

 

[se xc1]

Coach,
I can only speak to what I see. Obviously you have a good perspective, but I am going to defend today's kids. My runners work way harder than I did when I was in xc 25-30 years ago, and they are enjoying much more success. My student do more homework than I did. I can honestly say I don't remember bringing a book home. I think today's kids do work hard as a whole and I am excited for what their futures hold.

 

[Woobster]

I think it probably changes a bit from town to town....I have a son who plays basketball- he works his butt of at it and does all the weightroom stuff (which I did not do, weights were just coming around when I was in high school). He goes to all the camps, etc. and so there is no doubt that you have a segment of the kids who do work really hard. I do not remember a kid from high school playing aau ball- all of that has come around the past 15 years or so it seems. I think what I mean is there is a segment that feels a little more "entitled" and therefore they do not want to put all the work in without knowing they will have success, etc.
But you are right- it is certainly not all kids.

 

[dug58]

I coach and I know many coaches and very few if any who dont go the extra mile to get kids out for any sport. I know one hardass coach that soften up to get kids out. It didnt work not only were his wrestlers not as good but the type of kids that didnt come out when he was a HA didnt come out then either. He went back to being a HA so the kids he got were good.

Unfortuantly kids now days seem to be in 2 camps..ITs all or nothin. The top are very good and few are willing to work hard just to be average and compete.

 

[dadthencoach]

Woobster:
You brought up the thing I was avoiding, but you brought it up well. Back when you were a kid or I was a kid, each sport's season started the first day of practice and ended the last day. Unless you were a four-sporter, you took a season off, relaxed, hung out with your friends and did what other teenagers of the day did (we won't go into too much detail about that). Your competitive career started in junior high, and even in your senior year, you could usually get most of your homework done in class or study hall.

My, how times have changed.

I don't think "work ethic" is the right phrase. I think "burnout" is better, and I'm not that sure there is an entitlement to it. Wrestling, basketball and volleyball are the biggest sports for this (with softball and baseball right behind) but I really think there is a high burnout level anymore. If you want your child to succeed in these sports, they need to be playing in leagues, going to camps and getting extra coaching at an early age, or their hopes of that D-I scholarship is shot in the butt right there. A friend of mine took his kindergartner to his first kids wrestling tournament a couple of months ago and saw an eight-year old coming off the mat, in tears, after getting pinned. In the corner was my friend assumed to be the kid's father, screaming at the kid, "You will NOT show weakness! You will NOT let them see you cry! Stop acting like a LOSER!" Is this is what we've become?

Between years of kids' wrestling, summer camps, Fargo, middle school, freestyle, Greco, Fargo, and a stream of coaches (and more than likely a parent) who try to channel Tom Brands, for some kids it stops being fun. Throw on top of that a social life, enjoyment of other sports, more social life, and about 200 pounds of homework, at some point, something has to give. And, if the program has been down for a while, or if a given kid hasn't been successful, they might decide they want the winter off. And a lot of times if one or two feel that way, more might. Pretty soon, you have a problem; a problem not even the best coach can fix.

When I was still coaching, I usually had good numbers because I preached hard work, solid fundamentals, but also a DEMAND of a love of the sport. "If you aren't coming in here every day because you want to be here; if you aren't here because YOU want to be here, and you look forward to being here, don't come." We had good numbers, a degree of success and a lot of fun. But we also realized it wasn't life and death. Too many coaches and parents don't get that.

The quick and easy answer is blame coaches at individual schools for not working hard enough; for not being "hard" enough. The fact is that the problem may go a lot deeper. Coaches work hard everywhere, but if kids have lost the will, they've lost the will.

 

[Woobster]

You are probably right "dadthencoach"- I guess that begs another question- are there parents sitting around the dinner table telling their child, "hey, you won't be good unless you do all the extras and we are not paying for all that" and so the kid throws in the towel?? My daughter came over from christian school to public this year and we are finding this out- she is in 8th grade- she is playing in a basketball tourney on saturday in Odebolt and sunday afternoon brings aau volleyball practice- which goes through March and into april while they are in track, etc, etc. You wonder if all of that scares some kids away- not because they don't want to be good, but can't afford or are afraid to try.
Wrestling probably sees it as much as anybody- heck, you see those little tikes out there on weekends and you think- they have 13 years left of this.
If I'm not mistaken- my parents are from Osage- I even remember reading an article on Mark Schwab, the 4 time state champion- that told of his struggle with burnout early in high school- it happens. He obviously got past it and continued his awesome career.

 

[dadthencoach]

I will guarantee you that happens at dinner tables all over Iowa. Every night.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Dad you are spot on in your assessment.

 

[dadthencoach]

Wrestling is far and away the worst when it comes to this. And for the life of me, I can't figure out why. If I remember correctly, Division I schools have 9.5 full scholarships to spread around, Division II schools have (maybe) 5, and, of course D-IIIs have nothing. Yet parents shove kids into these kids' tournaments as early as five-years old, week upon week, without even bothering to see if the kid even wants to do it. And what cracks me up is half the time, these parents weren't even wrestlers, themselves.

We have gotten out of control. The sport I grew up loving loving and admiring, has developed an ugly side and its disappointing. We need to remember what this sport is really supposed to be about and remember that it's not about coaches and parents; it's about kids. People who can't remember that need to move on.

And Woobster, I've helped coach softball for many years. We've always had to deal with the delightful pleasure of having our players getting sucked into morning basketball and weekend volleyball in the middle of our season. Never been terribly sure when our kids sleep to be honest. But there is nothing more perplexing than finding out your starting third baseman has a broken pinky on her glove hand on the Monday of Regionals week from a weekend USVBA volleyball injury, THEN have the volleyball coach actually have the stones to ask you not to play her in Regionals so she'd be ready for another USVBA tournament the next weekend. ARRRRUGH!!!!!

 

[Woobster]

I just took over the softball program at our school- I will be waiting for that to happen.
Also, I know what you mean, I started my coaching career in 6 player basketball. We taped a girls ankle all season- then on the monday of our tourney game she shows up on crutches- you guessed it, aau volleyball on sunday- just ridiculous.

 

[dadthencoach]

Woob: Just keep remember: We're all working together! (Yeah, right!)

 

[Woobster]

LOL- you got that right.