FB Classifications

[rc1963]

What about the private schools that are small in a large population area? how do you fix that issue. St Alberts in CB, they are A in football and have a HUGE area to cast a net too. and play against population basis that are far smaller than theirs. So say they lose a kid, well there are plenty more for them to choose from. Take for instance their basketball squad. have 15 suited up with only 2 sophmores on the roster. When they lose a solid senior class, like this years actually, they continue to be competitive to the point of pushing a state tournament appearance every year. teams they have to compete against to get to state do not have that luxury. They go through cycles. Private schools like Grandview, St Alberts etc, do not.

I would say that has more to do with the history of the program, there's a reason Prince of Peace struggles even in a community with population to offer. But your point has validity, much like some of the small districts surrounding bigger communities as well.

 

[rc1963]

Private schools absolutely go through cycles too. But, they often have a solid youth program to help smooth out those ups and downs somewhat.
And, the point above about bigger schools poaching the best players from the smaller private schools near large population areas absolutely happens. And, it costs those teams state tournament appearances and maybe even titles. I can think of two examples off the top of my head right now.

Just to be clear - I never said "poaching/" I understand families making the best decisions for their families/student athletes. Just saying those decisions don't always benefit the privates.

I've also seen, first hand, a public school coach talk to a student athlete, after a game, in the game venue about coming to play for them. Those conversations happen, and you can say, oh, 'he's just kidding," but I think that's how those conversations get started. It takes a coach and/or a parent opening the door.

 

[CalmHawk]

Private schools absolutely go through cycles too. But, they often have a solid youth program to help smooth out those ups and downs somewhat.
And, the point above about bigger schools poaching the best players from the smaller private schools near large population areas absolutely happens. And, it costs those teams state tournament appearances and maybe even titles. I can think of two examples off the top of my head right now.

So you are saying that Private schools do not have move ins when HS starts?

 

[CalmHawk]

I would say that has more to do with the history of the program, there's a reason Prince of Peace struggles even in a community with population to offer. But your point has validity, much like some of the small districts surrounding bigger communities as well.

Prince of Peace was in the state tournament like 2-3 years ago.

 

[CalmHawk]

Just to be clear - I never said "poaching/" I understand families making the best decisions for their families/student athletes. Just saying those decisions don't always benefit the privates.

I've also seen, first hand, a public school coach talk to a student athlete, after a game, in the game venue about coming to play for them. Those conversations happen, and you can say, oh, 'he's just kidding," but I think that's how those conversations get started. It takes a coach and/or a parent opening the door.

Yeah, it does happen. And it should happen more often from all schools IMO. I just find it odd that recruitment is not admitted by Private schools when it is obvious it happens.

 

[Prancing Ponies]

All the arguments are about private and public. I am sorry but you see the same thing happening with school districts all over the state from small to big, private and public. You can see it all the way from North Linn in Class A basketball to Dowling in Class 4A football and all sports and sizes in between. It also happens in all the girls sports too. Once a tradition is established kids want to come there.
As far as socioeconomic conditions-how many pro athletes come from disadvantaged areas? Obviously there are great athletes are from poorer schools and some from well to do areas. Just play with the hand that is dealt.

 

[CalmHawk]

All the arguments are about private and public. I am sorry but you see the same thing happening with school districts all over the state from small to big, private and public. You can see it all the way from North Linn in Class A basketball to Dowling in Class 4A football and all sports and sizes in between. It also happens in all the girls sports too. Once a tradition is established kids want to come there.
As far as socioeconomic conditions-how many pro athletes come from disadvantaged areas? Obviously there are great athletes are from poorer schools and some from well to do areas. Just play with the hand that is dealt.

it happens more in the metro areas than the rural areas. Especially with schools located near bigger 4A type towns. That is where things happen the most. It is not a level playing field as compared to rural areas with 3-4 thousand and 1A towns located near 25,000 metros. Then you throw in the Private schools inside 65,000 metro areas playing the smallest level of competition when they have a town of maybe 1,000....

 

[crus8rs]

Thought this thread was about districts and classes?

 

[CalmHawk]

Thought this thread was about districts and classes?

It was until someone... Pinehawk.... brought up the other stuff. I am just filling him in on a few things.

 

[Pinehawk]

It was until someone... Pinehawk.... brought up the other stuff. I am just filling him in on a few things.

It was most certainly not me. Refer to post #142 in the thread for when the focus changed.
And, you didn't fill me in on anything.

 

[CalmHawk]

It was most certainly not me. Refer to post #142 in the thread for when the focus changed.
And, you didn't fill me in on anything.

All in good fun. we know where each other stands.

 

[CalmHawk]

I don't think we should create a new game with new rules (i.e. 8 man football).
We don't let small schools play 3 v 3 basketball. 7 v 7 soccer. Whiffle ball instead of baseball.
Play the actual 11 v 11 game, or consolidate, or don't field a team.
Especially when we now see schools that could field an actual team, but are choosing not to because they think they are better with fewer kids seeing the field.

I took offense to this take. I agree with the last part. But the consolidate or play 11 man is dumb.

 

[Pinehawk]

No other sport changes the entire game if a school is unable to field a team.

 

[Reasoned]

It was until someone... Pinehawk.... brought up the other stuff. I am just filling him in on a few things.

It was most certainly not me. Refer to post #142 in the thread for when the focus changed.
And, you didn't fill me in on anything.

Yeah I’ll take the hit, I’ve got big shoulders.
Besides, it’s difficult to discuss districts when non exist...yet, hence

 

[Redraider906]

Yeah I’ll take the hit, I’ve got big shoulders.
Besides, it’s difficult to discuss districts when non exist...yet, hence

The districts will be released this Friday. Hopefully that will give some posters something better to talk about.

 

[ISUChip]

I don't think we should create a new game with new rules (i.e. 8 man football).
We don't let small schools play 3 v 3 basketball. 7 v 7 soccer. Whiffle ball instead of baseball.
Play the actual 11 v 11 game, or consolidate, or don't field a team.

Run that one by the folks in Texas who play 6-man.

 

[KidSilverhair]

Don’t they play 6-man in Nebraska and the Dakotas, too?

 

[Prancing Ponies]

Just for fun, this might be another way that 1A could look:
District 1:
West Sioux, Western Christian, Sibley-O, Emmetsburg, Sioux Central, Ridge View

District 2:
East Sac, SCC, Manson-NW, Eagle Grove, Belmond-Klemme, South Hamilton

District 3:
Central Springs, A-P, South Hardin, D-NH, Waterloo Columbus, East Marshall

District 4:
Denver, Sumner-F, Postville, MFL, Beckman, Cascade

District 5:
Regina, West Branch, Wilton, Durant, Mepo, L-M

District 6:
Van Buren, Cardinal, S-K, Pella Christian, Pleasantville, Central Decatur

District 7:
I-35, Nodaway Valley-OM, WCV, Van Meter, Panorama, W-G

District 8:
ACGC, Treynor, Underwood, Kuemper, MVAOCOU, West Monona

When I looked at 1A this is exactly how I guessed it too. It is pretty easy cutoff in the north to use I-35. The south it is a little harder, but I think that makes a good breaking point.

 

[Rose bowl or bust]

There are actually 8 teams with 120 or more playing 8 man this year. I think this is the last cycle that Newell Fonda can play up. I think there is a 4 year appeals rule you need to file. They have been over for at least 3 years in a row. This would be year 4. please correct me if I am wrong. I feel like Sidney had to move up last year due to this.

You would be wrong according to the state's past BEDS numbers. NF was at 102 only 2 years ago. This tells me they've got a really big sophomore class going through, as I wouldn't think that either Newell or Fonda would be growing that much.The 94 to 102 range would be about 35 kids per class. To get to 136, they would be at about 45 kids per class. I don't think they would grow that quickly.

Newell-Fonda BEDS numbers
18-19 - 94
19-20 - 102
20-21 - 133
21-22 - 136

Side note: when I looked this up, I couldn't find anything older than 2018-19. Admittedly, I didn't spend a bunch of time looking, but does anyone have older BEDS numbers? I wanted to see what Sidney's were and how long they were above before the state made them move up.

Sidney BEDS numbers
18-19 - 154
19-20 - 131
20-21 - 136
21-22 - 130

Are there any other teams that have been "forced" to move up? I can't really recall. Seems like once a school goes to 8-man, they're not around very long after that. Think Aurelia, North Sentral Kossuth, Armstrong-Ringstead, Adair-Casey, etc.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Yeah, it does happen. And it should happen more often from all schools IMO. I just find it odd that recruitment is not admitted by Private schools when it is obvious it happens.

I think it is admitted far more than you think. I have been very clear that private schools recruit. They have to or they will close. Now will you admit how widespread it is at public schools? I watched a class go from 64 to 48 when the tuition goes up. It happens.

 

[PNation]

I went back through a few years and most years Newell Fonda seems to add students when they get to high school so I wonder if there is a small Church school that switches to public school there?

 

[MepoDawg#]

Just for fun, this might be another way that 1A could look:
District 1:
West Sioux, Western Christian, Sibley-O, Emmetsburg, Sioux Central, Ridge View

District 2:
East Sac, SCC, Manson-NW, Eagle Grove, Belmond-Klemme, South Hamilton

District 3:
Central Springs, A-P, South Hardin, D-NH, Waterloo Columbus, East Marshall

District 4:
Denver, Sumner-F, Postville, MFL, Beckman, Cascade

District 5:
Regina, West Branch, Wilton, Durant, Mepo, L-M

District 6:
Van Buren, Cardinal, S-K, Pella Christian, Pleasantville, Central Decatur

District 7:
I-35, Nodaway Valley-OM, WCV, Van Meter, Panorama, W-G

District 8:
ACGC, Treynor, Underwood, Kuemper, MVAOCOU, West Monona

That would definitely be different for us.

 

[cjm3260]

Thanks for the maps!!

 

[rc1963]

So you are saying that Private schools do not have move ins when HS starts?

No, I'm saying the door swings both ways, there are kids with D1 aspirations that jump to a 4/5A to be part of the competition level college coaches pay more attention to. In Iowa, that only currently gives an advantage to one private.

 

[rc1963]

No other sport changes the entire game if a school is unable to field a team.

You're forgetting about 2-man putt-putt...;-)

No other sports necessitates fielding 35-40 min athletes to yield a competitive starting 11....

I really don't have a problem offering 8 man. Clearly there are quite a number of kids that get to play a version of football they wouldn't get to otherwise. If the state was sponsoring a program just to have 20 schools compete, I'd say maybe they just shouldn't have football, but with 68 schools, a full 20 percent of Iowa Schools, that's significant.

You don't see near the volume of schools unable to assemble a competitive 5 v 5 starting basketball roster.. So, it's a sport by sport thing. There are school that can't field enough runners to compete as a team, but at least those kids can still compete on an individual basis.

 

[rc1963]

You would be wrong according to the state's past BEDS numbers. NF was at 102 only 2 years ago. This tells me they've got a really big sophomore class going through, as I wouldn't think that either Newell or Fonda would be growing that much.The 94 to 102 range would be about 35 kids per class. To get to 136, they would be at about 45 kids per class. I don't think they would grow that quickly.

Newell-Fonda BEDS numbers
18-19 - 94
19-20 - 102
20-21 - 133
21-22 - 136

Side note: when I looked this up, I couldn't find anything older than 2018-19. Admittedly, I didn't spend a bunch of time looking, but does anyone have older BEDS numbers? I wanted to see what Sidney's were and how long they were above before the state made them move up.

Sidney BEDS numbers
18-19 - 154
19-20 - 131
20-21 - 136
21-22 - 130

Are there any other teams that have been "forced" to move up? I can't really recall. Seems like once a school goes to 8-man, they're not around very long after that. Think Aurelia, North Sentral Kossuth, Armstrong-Ringstead, Adair-Casey, etc.

Here's the link to Department of Education data back to 1991-92:

Education Statistics PK-12 | Iowa Department of Education

This section presents the data collected by the Department in various formats for PK-12 schools. While most of the data are presented in excel spreadsheets that users can download for their own analysis, data are also presented as maps and written reports, including The Annual Condition of...

educateiowa.gov

 

[PNation]

It's always fun to see how small Waukee was back then.

 

[Gamefly]

You would be wrong according to the state's past BEDS numbers. NF was at 102 only 2 years ago. This tells me they've got a really big sophomore class going through, as I wouldn't think that either Newell or Fonda would be growing that much.The 94 to 102 range would be about 35 kids per class. To get to 136, they would be at about 45 kids per class. I don't think they would grow that quickly.

Newell-Fonda BEDS numbers
18-19 - 94
19-20 - 102
20-21 - 133
21-22 - 136

Side note: when I looked this up, I couldn't find anything older than 2018-19. Admittedly, I didn't spend a bunch of time looking, but does anyone have older BEDS numbers? I wanted to see what Sidney's were and how long they were above before the state made them move up.

Sidney BEDS numbers
18-19 - 154
19-20 - 131
20-21 - 136
21-22 - 130

Are there any other teams that have been "forced" to move up? I can't really recall. Seems like once a school goes to 8-man, they're not around very long after that. Think Aurelia, North Sentral Kossuth, Armstrong-Ringstead, Adair-Casey, etc.

I believe rockford was at 8 man for a few cycles before moving back up to A. I don't know if they were forced to or not. In 2016 and 2017 they played 11 man. They didn't win a game in 11 man those 2 years. They dropped back down to 8 man in 2018 and ended up state runner-up. Their losing streak before 2018 was nearly 3 full seasons stretching back to their previous 8 man days. I think this is how that went down anyway.

 

[Hooper2021]

Some transparency on the boys union would solve all of this. If there's an exception, I wish they would explain the exception so there isn't speculation. 8 man (and other small classes in other states) is absolutely needed for this sport in high school athletics. Borderline teams, especially teams that CAN field an 11 man roster, shouldn't be granted exceptions. I understand all of the field size logistics and with borderline teams that can be a testy subject. Transparency from the state would kill all that noise.

 

[cjm3260]

My 8-Man Projections
D1 Bishop Garrigan, GTRA, H-LP, North Iowa, Northwood-Kensett, St Mary's, N-F, WB-M, and K-P
D2 Rice, Rock, Turkey, Kee, Central (Elk), Tripoli, West Central, Clarksville, Janesville
D3 Glad-Rein, Dunk, Bosco, Ed-Co, Central City, Easton, Midland, Springville, GMG
D4 C-W, Iowa Valley, H-L-V, Eng V, WACO, Winfield-Mt Union, New London, LT, Tri-County
D5 Meskwaki, BGM, Montezuma, Twin Cedars, M-D, SE Warren, Mormon Trail, Mora, Seymour
D6 Colo-Nesco, C-M, Bax, Grand View, Mart St. Mary's, Murray, Lenox, Lamoni, East Union
D7 Audubon, EEHK, CAM, Gris, Stanton, Bed, East Mills, F-M
D8 Riv V, Sioux Ch, ArWeVa, Boy V, Glid-Rals, CR-B, FD St Ed, Wood, W Harrison

 

[Reasoned]

In IL (which is typically not the state you want to emulate) they utilize a lot of single sport co-ops with neighboring districts in order to boost numbers.

 

[HOOTOWLHOLLOW]

D1	East Buchanan, Winthrop	Nashua-Plainfield	Newman Catholic, Mason City	North Butler	Saint Ansgar	South Winneshiek, Calmar	Wapsie Valley, Fairbank	West Fork, Sheffield
D2	Alburnett	Bellevue	Clayton Ridge, Guttenberg	Lisbon	Maquoketa Valley, Delhi	North Cedar, Stanwood	North Linn, Troy Mills	Starmont
D3	Belle Plaine	Columbus Junction	Highland, Riverside	Lynnville-Sully	North Mahaska, New Sharon	Pekin	Wapello	Wayne, Corydon
D4	AHSTW	Earlham	Mount Ayr	Riverside, Oakland	Sidney	Southwest Valley	St. Albert, Council Bluffs	Tri-Center, Neola
D5	Alta/Aurelia	Hinton	IKM-Manning	Lawton-Bronson	Logan-Magnolia	Missouri Valley	Westwood, Sloan	Woodbury Central, Moville
D6	Akron-Westfield	Gehlen Catholic, LeMars	Hartley-Melvin-Sanborn	Lake Mills	MMCRU	North Union	South O'Brien, Paullina	West Hancock, Britt
D7	AGWSR, Ackley	BCLUW, Conrad	Colfax-Mingo	Grundy Center	Hudson	Madrid	North Tama, Traer	Ogden

 

[HOOTOWLHOLLOW]

My Take on Class A

 

[troutstamp1]

My Take on Class A

I don't think it will be 7 districts of 8 but yet 8 districts of 7 but we will find out friday. I think you have some districts pretty close but you have a few schools crossing each other to go to different districts as I would put lake mills or starmont in district 1 and move East Buc to district 2, Lisbon or north cedar to district 3. Bellevue is the odd one that is tough to place.

 

[HOOTOWLHOLLOW]

heres my take if they go 8 Districts of 7 teams in Class A

D1	East Buchanan, Winthrop	Clayton Ridge, Guttenberg	Bellevue	Alburnett	Maquoketa Valley, Delhi	Starmont	North Linn, Troy Mills
D2	Lisbon	North Cedar, Stanwood	Pekin	Belle Plaine	Columbus Junction	Wapello	Highland, Riverside
D3	Lynnville-Sully	North Mahaska, New Sharon	Colfax-Mingo	Earlham	Southwest Valley	Mount Ayr	Wayne, Corydon
D4	AHSTW	Riverside, Oakland	Sidney	St. Albert, Council Bluffs	Tri-Center, Neola	Logan-Magnolia	Missouri Valley
D5	Akron-Westfield	Hinton	IKM-Manning	Lawton-Bronson	Gehlen Catholic, LeMars	Woodbury Central, Moville	Westwood, Sloan
D6	Alta/Aurelia	West Hancock, Britt	Hartley-Melvin-Sanborn	Lake Mills	MMCRU	North Union	South O'Brien, Paullina
D7	Saint Ansgar	Newman Catholic, Mason City	North Butler	Nashua-Plainfield	South Winneshiek, Calmar	Wapsie Valley, Fairbank	West Fork, Sheffield
D8	AGWSR, Ackley	BCLUW, Conrad	Ogden	Grundy Center	Hudson	Madrid	North Tama, Traer

 

[PNation]

So are they coming out today or tomorrow, my gut says tomorrow because you know nothing is ever speedy with that group.

 

[Redraider906]

So are they coming out today or tomorrow, my gut says tomorrow because you know nothing is ever speedy with that group.

They told the coaches and ADs they would come out tomorrow.

 

[troutstamp1]

heres my take if they go 8 Districts of 7 teams in Class A

D1	East Buchanan, Winthrop	Clayton Ridge, Guttenberg	Bellevue	Alburnett	Maquoketa Valley, Delhi	Starmont	North Linn, Troy Mills
D2	Lisbon	North Cedar, Stanwood	Pekin	Belle Plaine	Columbus Junction	Wapello	Highland, Riverside
D3	Lynnville-Sully	North Mahaska, New Sharon	Colfax-Mingo	Earlham	Southwest Valley	Mount Ayr	Wayne, Corydon
D4	AHSTW	Riverside, Oakland	Sidney	St. Albert, Council Bluffs	Tri-Center, Neola	Logan-Magnolia	Missouri Valley
D5	Akron-Westfield	Hinton	IKM-Manning	Lawton-Bronson	Gehlen Catholic, LeMars	Woodbury Central, Moville	Westwood, Sloan
D6	Alta/Aurelia	West Hancock, Britt	Hartley-Melvin-Sanborn	Lake Mills	MMCRU	North Union	South O'Brien, Paullina
D7	Saint Ansgar	Newman Catholic, Mason City	North Butler	Nashua-Plainfield	South Winneshiek, Calmar	Wapsie Valley, Fairbank	West Fork, Sheffield
D8	AGWSR, Ackley	BCLUW, Conrad	Ogden	Grundy Center	Hudson	Madrid	North Tama, Traer

I think you are a lot closer with this formatt.

 

[rc1963]

No other sport changes the entire game if a school is unable to field a team.

But we do add sport - bowling was a relatively new add, archery was a relatively new add. All it takes is a shift in thinking to say that 8 man or 6 man is really a different offering, not a variant of an existing sport. If you think of it that way it's potatoe/potahto

 

[PNation]

I really hope that the state seriously considers small districts of 5 or 6 schools for class A, I know districts of 7 or 8, but geographically there are so many strange districts that come with bigger districts.