The proposal the IFCA put forth to the IHSAA this year has the State Finals being the Monday and Tuesday before Thanksgiving and 6 days between games.
Expanded playoffs again??
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The proposal the IFCA put forth to the IHSAA this year has the State Finals being the Monday and Tuesday before Thanksgiving and 6 days between games.
Look, 16 teams selected out of 42, 54 or whatever is almost certainly going to include the top team in any given class...and that should be the goal, to give an opportunity to determine the best FB team in the state. Granted, it is somewhat different depending which class your looking at, (e.g., in 4A the top 2 out of 6 in district are in, a 33% chance vs 3A where it was top 2 out of 8, 25% chance, with a couple of wildcards). Would 32 make it even more certain the "best" team is in? Perhaps, at least mathematically but so would including every team. Problem is with FB the more games played, the greater the injury possibilities (especially if short rests are involved).
I really think that if you asked most coaches who have made a deep run that the difference between the layoffs isn't that huge of an issue. The Monday game followed by a Friday game would be the one exception. But other than that practices revolve around scouting reports and walk throughs for the most part. An argument could be made that early season when there is much more full contact 2 or 3 days a week at practice and then a game on top of that is harder on the athletes.
We have to assume we will see 9 - six team districts. Problem is that with 9 Districts you can't take the top 2 from each District if you are only taking 16 teams. That means the champion gets in and then some sort of other criteria will determine the rest and when you throw in the possibility of 1st place ties in a District there is no way to say for sure that the best teams are going to get in the Playoffs. If your system doesn't at least guarantee that the best teams get in then it is a flawed system.
With only 5 District games a team's margin for error is slim. It would be very easy to have good teams miss the playoffs, since districts are never setup with competitive balance in mind. They are based on geography. Loaded districts, top heavy districts and districts of all mediocre to bad teams are the reality. 16 teams will not guarantee that the best teams are in the play-offs.
^ You are correct, that is a potential flaw anytime you limit the number of teams entering the playoffs but there has to be a cutoff, otherwise let everybody in. Would 32 teams work? Sure, it's done in IL (trust me, I'm not one to advocate anything that IL does) but in this case perhaps there's merit. In IL, due to the sheer number of schools they have appx 60 in each class (8 in total for 11 man) and 32 in each (about half) make the playoffs.
Another interesting fact with IL schools is, again due to the number of schools and classes, the intra-class enrollment comparison is very close, until you hit the largest 8A. Which I suspect is not unlike IA, where in 4A you have appx 1000-3,000 enrollment range.
Another interesting fact with IL schools is, again due to the number of schools and classes, the intra-class enrollment comparison is very close, until you hit the largest 8A. Which I suspect is not unlike IA, where in 4A you have appx 1000-3,000 enrollment range.
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I think 32 works well. The thing that is good about Iowa and also sometimes is a pain is that this can be re-done in 2 years. So, let's try 9 - 6 Team Districts with 32 teams in the playoffs, a 9 game regular season and 6 days in between games during the playoffs. If it doesn't work then change it in 2 years. Nothing is locked in for a lot of years.
Being a 4A school, I like the 6 team district format with 5 district games (meaningful) and 4 ND games (preseason) but in order to have this throughout the state you'd obviously have to increase the number of districts in the smaller classes. Again, you still run into the reshuffling every two years of districts (which is kind of nice seeing "new blood" every two years) but it presents a challenge to the IHSAA.
Why do 32 teams need to be "state qualifiers"....... seems like the thing that would make the most sense is that 32 teams make the post season/District finals....... but, then you have to WIN a game to be in the final 16 and actually say you qualified for the state playoffs. Basically, have a "district final or Substate" game. Sending more than half of the teams to "state" and pretending like they qualified for something is kind of a joke. Would you give 40 or 50 teams a trophy and call them a "state qualifier" in any other sport? 50 "State Qualifiers" in baseball, or basketball, or cross country? That would be ridiculous - but, that is the same as 32 teams in football. Allowing more teams to play their way in to the final 16 provides incentive, motivation and opportunity for more kids to keep competing all season long - which is good. But, it also provides the integrity of not pretending that being the 32nd best team out of 54 makes you a "state qualifier."
I love how everyone is so up in arms about 32 teams in the playoffs. Big deal if they give them a banner for qualifying for playoffs. Are you just upset that when you were in school you didn't get a banner because they didn't have that many in the playoffs?
The number of qualifiers has changed over the years, the number of classes and how can it be at one time they didn't have playoffs! I'm sure my grandfather is very upset over them even having playoffs.
Let the kids play which is what they want to do. I say more in is fine, call it what you want.
The number of qualifiers has changed over the years, the number of classes and how can it be at one time they didn't have playoffs! I'm sure my grandfather is very upset over them even having playoffs.
Let the kids play which is what they want to do. I say more in is fine, call it what you want.
If I am on a 1-8 team and they hang our 'state qualifier' banner I don't think I could look at it without laughing.
I think if you asked players who made a deep run in the playoffs the old layoff sucked. Far more stressful than any game week during the regular season.
I’ve been an assistant for a state champion team and from my experience it was the Monday to Friday game that you could tell that the kids were the most physically drained after, other than that I would say that most kids were ready to go after 5 days as they become used to it. This was also at a school where most of the kids were two way players. Now I agree that I would rather see 6 days but I think 5 days is doable for high School kids.
That brings to mind a situation our school had several years ago before the 16 team format, we drew a 1-8 team (who hadn't been in the PO's for years) in the first round. Most of our reserves were in at the end of first quarter to keep the score reasonable, you'd have to ask their kids and coaches if it was a positive or not.
Id be in favor of the 32 team field. But I would even go as far as to cut a game from the regular season. Play 8 games and be done with it. These districts are getting kind of crazy and teams not playing a "district" game until week 4 or 5 is insane. Its hard to find opponents for non-conf some times, so I would just cut a game out. Id go 8 weeks and then start the play-offs week 9. That way you can keep it on Friday schedule.
Id even go as far ranking the 32 teams and pairing up 1 vs 32 and 2 vs 31 and so forth. Get a "true" playoff feeling. I realize you can't do that w/distance but at least try. Do a "UNI Dome" or Drake Stadium as a neutral site but that would be way too much for the IAHSAA to figure out.
I think 32 is perfect, Id even be in favor of 24 and giving every district champ a "bye" in the first round if they want to. 16 just seems like some decent/good teams are being left out of the playoffs.
Id even go as far ranking the 32 teams and pairing up 1 vs 32 and 2 vs 31 and so forth. Get a "true" playoff feeling. I realize you can't do that w/distance but at least try. Do a "UNI Dome" or Drake Stadium as a neutral site but that would be way too much for the IAHSAA to figure out.
I think 32 is perfect, Id even be in favor of 24 and giving every district champ a "bye" in the first round if they want to. 16 just seems like some decent/good teams are being left out of the playoffs.
I like your thoughts but two things, first the 8 game sched was not very popular among schools especially the larger 3A and 4A schools as they do not want to lose a home gate revenue even thou it would be every other yr. Secondly the 24 team field was also discussed and based on the survey of the coaches that was sent out the majority did not want a bye and sit around in the first round.
I don't think it matters. Rumor has it the state will have 9 districts, with the 9 champions and then have everyone else fighting for 7 wildcard spots. I hope I am hearing wrong. That system makes it harder to get into the playoffs. If true, it is another example of the state going the exact opposite of the desires of the coaches and ADs.
Here ya go, just came out this afternoon, what the coaches want and what the state wants, who do you think will win.
AD's & Head Football Coaches-
We are now ready to disclose your preliminary classification in the sport of football for the 2018 and 2019 football seasons. These classifications will not become official until approved by the IHSAA Board of Control at their January 24th meeting.
The next step will be for you to go to the member school link on our website and click on the same link in which you verified your enrollment. The only thing different is that now there should be a classification in the box that was previously empty. There is no box for you to verify this classification if you previously submitted your approval of the enrollment numbers.
As of right now it appears we have the following number of schools in each classification:
Class 4A: 42
Class 3A: 54
Class 2A: 54
Class 1A: 54
Class A: 62
8 Player: 65
331 Varsity Football Programs
The number is down 3 from this time two years ago during the same process.
If you would like to petition to play up a class, we need that letter in writing signed by your superintendent by Tuesday, January 23rd at 5 PM. This petition would be in effect for both the 2018 and 2019 football seasons.
Regarding the number of districts in each class, that will be determined by the Board of Control at their January 24th meeting.
As of right now, with no schools dropping their programs in the near future, the district options will look like this:
Class 4A will either have 7 districts of 6 teams, or 6 districts of 7 teams.
Classes 3A, 2A, 1A will either have 9 districts of 6 teams, or 6 districts of 9 teams.
Class A will either have 8 districts with either 8 or 7 teams, or 10 districts with 6 or 7 teams.
Class 8 Player, due to the unequal amount of teams in each district, will have 7 districts with 8 teams and 1 district with 9 teams. It is quite probably that the 9 team district will need to find a Week 0 contest in order to have a complete 9 game schedule. In addition, 8 player schools will have their entire schedule created for them, including their non-district opponents without the opportunity to create a priority list.
Playoff qualification systems will be determined by the Board of Control at this meeting as well. There is the proposal by the Football Advisory Committee in which only district contests would determine qualification along with a proposal by the Iowa High School Athletic Association administrative staff that would qualify schools using all regular season contests.
Obviously, this second proposal may influence your non-district opponents. More information will follow if this proposal does pass.
The actual assignments will be posted on our website the afternoon of January 25th, after our Board of Control meeting and upon my return to the office.
I am out of the office this afternoon and on Monday, but will be in the office on Tuesday.
Further breakdowns and cutoff information will be provided next Tuesday.
AD's & Head Football Coaches-
We are now ready to disclose your preliminary classification in the sport of football for the 2018 and 2019 football seasons. These classifications will not become official until approved by the IHSAA Board of Control at their January 24th meeting.
The next step will be for you to go to the member school link on our website and click on the same link in which you verified your enrollment. The only thing different is that now there should be a classification in the box that was previously empty. There is no box for you to verify this classification if you previously submitted your approval of the enrollment numbers.
As of right now it appears we have the following number of schools in each classification:
Class 4A: 42
Class 3A: 54
Class 2A: 54
Class 1A: 54
Class A: 62
8 Player: 65
331 Varsity Football Programs
The number is down 3 from this time two years ago during the same process.
If you would like to petition to play up a class, we need that letter in writing signed by your superintendent by Tuesday, January 23rd at 5 PM. This petition would be in effect for both the 2018 and 2019 football seasons.
Regarding the number of districts in each class, that will be determined by the Board of Control at their January 24th meeting.
As of right now, with no schools dropping their programs in the near future, the district options will look like this:
Class 4A will either have 7 districts of 6 teams, or 6 districts of 7 teams.
Classes 3A, 2A, 1A will either have 9 districts of 6 teams, or 6 districts of 9 teams.
Class A will either have 8 districts with either 8 or 7 teams, or 10 districts with 6 or 7 teams.
Class 8 Player, due to the unequal amount of teams in each district, will have 7 districts with 8 teams and 1 district with 9 teams. It is quite probably that the 9 team district will need to find a Week 0 contest in order to have a complete 9 game schedule. In addition, 8 player schools will have their entire schedule created for them, including their non-district opponents without the opportunity to create a priority list.
Playoff qualification systems will be determined by the Board of Control at this meeting as well. There is the proposal by the Football Advisory Committee in which only district contests would determine qualification along with a proposal by the Iowa High School Athletic Association administrative staff that would qualify schools using all regular season contests.
Obviously, this second proposal may influence your non-district opponents. More information will follow if this proposal does pass.
The actual assignments will be posted on our website the afternoon of January 25th, after our Board of Control meeting and upon my return to the office.
I am out of the office this afternoon and on Monday, but will be in the office on Tuesday.
Further breakdowns and cutoff information will be provided next Tuesday.
Horrible idea if the association uses all games to determine wild cards. Why the hell would Regina go out and play Xavier and Solon if it might cost them a playoff spot? Don’t we want them playing these games? It will be a rush for teams to try to find the crappiest teams in their area to give them the +17, but it won’t give us good match ups.
I really think that an RPI like formula (possibly BCMoore) has to be part of the equation but I really think the final say has to be from humans. Make a criteria that includes overall record, district finish, head to head, 17 pt differential, computer, human poll and come up with a selection committee of 5 or so people for each class that meets at 10 pm on the final Friday night of the regular season to make the brackets. This could be a group that consists of a member of the board of control, an AD or two, possibly a sports writer, and other administrators. As long as all of the scores were in by 10:30 I think that brackets could be out by midnight. That may seem like a rush but I really think that most of us on here could make a good bracket for the class that we follow the most in about 10 minutes.
If only 6 team district, and with the state doing the scheduling, they have a pretty good idea of the top 3 from each district. If they make the top 3 teams in each district play other top 3 teams from multiple other districts in non-district games, the head to head will take care of a lot of the WC selections.
Non-district game might be longer travel than in the past, but should be more competitive games at the top level and bottom which is something they said they wanted.
Only way you couldn't use ND games with 9 districts is if they go back to 32. 2nd place ties would get the WC then points or something.
Regina or anybody else losing an out of class game wouldn't affect their chances at a wild card. It reduces the teams they can beat in ND games to help secure a WC though. Same for Xavier or Solon. Just like scheduling a poor team, doesn't help you get better or secure a WC spot just put one in the W column.
Non-district game might be longer travel than in the past, but should be more competitive games at the top level and bottom which is something they said they wanted.
Only way you couldn't use ND games with 9 districts is if they go back to 32. 2nd place ties would get the WC then points or something.
Regina or anybody else losing an out of class game wouldn't affect their chances at a wild card. It reduces the teams they can beat in ND games to help secure a WC though. Same for Xavier or Solon. Just like scheduling a poor team, doesn't help you get better or secure a WC spot just put one in the W column.
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As far as this goes, I'd personally go with 32 teams, call the first round the wildcard/substate round, and the next 4 rounds the State tournament. 32 just seems like too many to consider "state qualifiers" but if you wait until the round of 16, you'll likely have all teams with at least 7 wins. I would also wait until a team advances to the 2nd round to award anyone a banner for state qualifying
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They left the window open for A to be 10 districts, but not 8 player. Makes no sense IMO. 8 player is a little different since you can't play out of class, but as a parent I'd rather drive a little farther once every 2 years than play someone that isn't in the same league. I like to watch competitive games win or lose. Kids IMO would rather play competitive games win or lose.
Does anyone know if 32 or 16 team playoffs are more likely to be the outcome? As far as I see it, until you add another class for football, 32 will have to be the number
The more likely outcome in my humble opinion will be that they stick with 16 playoff qualifiers this time around. Just seems to be the vibe.
If this is the case, and they take 9 automatic qualifiers (district champions) and 7 wildcards, I'd hope they ditch the 17 point system. Use a computer power ranking similar to the one BCMoore or MaxPreps uses, make it equally rewarding to win games and schedule tough teams, avoid all the crappy alphabetical tiebreakers. It's not optimal but it's the only good way I see 16 teams working out well
Are you forgetting that the State makes everyone's schedules including Non-District? How is an RPI system going to work if the schools have no say in their schedule? You will have some schools complaining that their schedule didn't allow them to rack up quality wins and others saying their schedule was too hard and non-district losses cost them a shot at the play-offs.
Using a RPI system takes away the desire for most teams to keep playing non-district rivalry games if they could come back to bite you at playoff time. More rivalry games was one of the reasons the State says they want 4 non-district games. They can't have it both ways.
Even if you can't control who you play non-district, a good RPI/Power ranking computer system would factor in more than a win or loss. Strength of schedule would be accounted for, as would margin of victory/defeat. It'd be nearly impossible to devise a way to cheat the system or get screwed over by it. If you play well relative to your opponent, you're rewarded. If you don't, you're not. Quality losses could do just as much for you as quality wins. It's just ridiculous to use an in-district point differential system when you're dealing with so many wildcard teams from across the state
That means we have to have faith in the fact that the State will do a great job scheduling and the RPI system is flawless. Because with "quality losses" being as good as a win in some cases we will have the always great situation of a 6-3 team getting in over an 8-1 team. Those situations will make these Forums a lot of fun to watch.
If we go with 32 teams, I'd completely understand not using a computer system. At the end of the day, a selection committee would be needed anyway. As long as the state has absolute control over schedules, we're gonna have problems regardless. Does anyone know when the official announcement will be made regarding all this? Thought it was today
Meeting is today, with the announcement of Districts and Play-off plans tomorrow.
The other thing we are not taking into account is the possibility of playing out of state teams. It is much harder to evaluate if a game against an out of state team is a quality win or loss. Yes we can look at their record but maybe they are a 3A school playing in a conference made up of mostly 1A schools and really aren't that good of a team.
To be clear I hope the state does open up out of state play again as I think there are some past rivalries that could be renewed.
The other thing that I think could be taken into account would be players missing games. I remember the year that Pella made the finals from being a 4 seed they were missing a couple of important players in close losses to the 3 teams ahead of them in their district.
Overall I think going to 32 for 8-3A and 24 for 4A would eliminate most of these issues with selecting the best teams for the playoffs. I would rather see a few below average teams make the field then have good teams not get a chance.
To be clear I hope the state does open up out of state play again as I think there are some past rivalries that could be renewed.
The other thing that I think could be taken into account would be players missing games. I remember the year that Pella made the finals from being a 4 seed they were missing a couple of important players in close losses to the 3 teams ahead of them in their district.
Overall I think going to 32 for 8-3A and 24 for 4A would eliminate most of these issues with selecting the best teams for the playoffs. I would rather see a few below average teams make the field then have good teams not get a chance.
I'm not a fan, the coaches and AD's wanted 32 teams, not sure why the state feels the need to go against that recommendation.
The reason why the state wants to make it harder for teams to get into the playoffs is they only care about the traditional powerhouses. No sense in allowing kids on teams that aren't traditional power houses an opportunity to play.
Complete BS on the state and the board making the deciding factor. Here are my two biggest issues, 1 doing a RPI when schools are not guaranteed to get who they list on their list of 7 we have to provide the state after tomorrow. Basically the state could decide the playoffs based on the sched they chose for each team as nothing is posted public ally for everyone to see whitch teams put each other #1 or 2 o3 down the line. Secondly probably most disappointing is co champs automatically get in, why not use the tie breaker to get the district champ and the team that loses out gets thrown in with all the other teams fighting for an at large spot.
Here is another issue come playoff time, with 8 automatic champs so are going to see a lot more travel and district champs playing each other in the first rd because whats keeps all or most of the at large teams from being on one side of the state.
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