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Conflicting events at state meet.

Stick - I think you are perhaps missing one aspect of this. I have coached a long time, and I would say, I have almost always went with the philosophy of "run the kids at districts in the events you plan to run at state, and leave them there."

Now, there have been some occasions when I have tried to run kids in some different events at districts and then switch them at state. However, you seem to think that the reason a coach would do this is so they can "use" the kid with less ability in order to help out the "better" kids, and then put your better kids back in at state. I can honestly say I have never done that. The times I have switched things around at districts it has been in years where we had very strong teams, and I was trying to qualify an event or two in order to INCLUDE the kid who really would not have had a very good chance otherwise. I have run 3 legs of a 4x4 with our #5, and put a better kid on the anchor of the D-med in hopes of qualifying both, and then switching the better runner back into the 4x8 and having the #5 run the D-med. I have done this on a few occasions. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't.

Years where it did not work out, I put the better runner back in the 4x8 and the #5 did not run. I don't do this anymore, simply because the parents of the #5 kid would always lose their mind -saying "their kid qualified" . . . . . It was NEVER the parents of the better runner complaining that their kid had to help their teammates out. In a case like this, the #5 kid had ZERO chance of qualifying and participating on their own. At the time, I saw this as a way of getting other kids the chance at the state experience. I certainly was never "using" kids of lesser ability in order to get kids with more ability qualified in a bunch of events.

Doing what I did may be right or wrong depending on how you look at it. Like I said, I don't tend to do that anymore because the kids I was trying to "help" never seemed to figure out that what was being done was for them - or at least their parents sure couldn't figure it out. And, I would say my philosophy has changed somewhat too, and I don't think I would want to qualify events that would take someone else's spot, and then switch a kid out, running a less competitive relay.

Just saying - for the most part - coaches are not out their trying to "use" kids for their own gain. Generally, coaches are trying to help as many kids on their team have as good an experience as they can. Sometimes it works out, sometimes maybe not.
 
Stickman: To use that logic, perhaps Iowa should pass a rule that a player can't participate in more than one half of a playoff football or basketball game. That means more kids get to play and more of their family is likely to come to the games. Might also get more kids out, knowing their chances of playing have doubled.

That's great for 8-year-old soccer. Not so great for high school varsity, IMO.
 
...and I go back to my last half sentence.

Getting kids involved should be the priority. Are we better off having an elite few participate so we get treated with seeing better performances or trying to get more kids involved and possibly having them remain more active, fit, and better able to contribute in society.

Not really appropriate to bring a football team into this equation. Many smaller schools would not be able to bring a whole second team to safely play a half game. You have schools going to 8 man, combining with other districts, dropping the sport, ect and you want to suggest something that could cause this sport to require teams to field kids who might not be physically able to safely play varsity football? That is a silly notion even beyond the safety issue.

This whole thing boils down to wanting to skim off the cream of the crop and create a environment which will cater to them being able to participate in as many events as possible because heaven forbid that a kid who was less than the best possible compete in an event (even if we do have to cater the rules and lengths of the contest just to achieve that).

To the coaches who are substituting in an honorable fashion to allow more kids to participate I take my hat off to you and apologize for anything I might have said to offend you. I'm sure there are more than one of you but also suspect that as long as it took for someone to point out the honorable side of applying this rule there are also those coaches who are purely "using" these kids for their own personal gain. As I said earlier, those are probably the coaches finding themselves having to actively recruit kids to their programs.
 
I like the idea. Each class has their own day. Just imagine how much better it would be for people in eastern and western Iowa. One and done. If they really like track and want to come for another day, great. Come as many days as you want.

the way it is now, I have to go 3 separate days. I can't imagine what this is like for the folks from Sioux City or SE Iowa.

Of course, it'll never change. It makkes too much sense AND will cost the association $. Can't have that.

While we're at it, let's cut back to one association instead of 2. Yeah, that'll never happen either.
 
i like the idea as well. All in one day. It would be the same as every track meet for points that they have competed in all year long. The kids have had to deal all season with pacing themselves for energy etc to make it thru each meet, so I say continue that at a 1 day state meet. Just imagine state championship basketball and football games played out over 4 days (one quarter per day)...so that the participants stay fresh and rested. wow, that would be exciting....NOT. well, its kinda whats going on in state track isnt it? good idea SEXC1
 
Again, stop trying to compare track to any other sport. Not the same thing, same dynamic, or same circumstances. It's ignorant to try and compare things that aren't comparable.
 
you might be right. It is ignorant to try and compare the state track meet with the other sports. Althou I will say that all the track meets in the season up to state track do have something in common with the other sports. Cuz the state meet is drug out over 3 days, whereas all the other track meets, run by all the local schools are much more proficient, and are able to handle it all in one day. gee, the other sports, basketball and football, manage to have their stuff together too and get a contest done in one day. Looks like the state track meet is the freak of the bunch.
Good luck to the runners tomorrow, and the next day and the next day.
This post was edited on 5/16 7:39 PM by spook78
 
Originally posted by stickman80:
...and I go back to my last half sentence.

Getting kids involved should be the priority. Are we better off having an elite few participate so we get treated with seeing better performances or trying to get more kids involved and possibly having them remain more active, fit, and better able to contribute in society.

Not really appropriate to bring a football team into this equation. Many smaller schools would not be able to bring a whole second team to safely play a half game. You have schools going to 8 man, combining with other districts, dropping the sport, ect and you want to suggest something that could cause this sport to require teams to field kids who might not be physically able to safely play varsity football? That is a silly notion even beyond the safety issue.

This whole thing boils down to wanting to skim off the cream of the crop and create a environment which will cater to them being able to participate in as many events as possible because heaven forbid that a kid who was less than the best possible compete in an event (even if we do have to cater the rules and lengths of the contest just to achieve that).

To the coaches who are substituting in an honorable fashion to allow more kids to participate I take my hat off to you and apologize for anything I might have said to offend you. I'm sure there are more than one of you but also suspect that as long as it took for someone to point out the honorable side of applying this rule there are also those coaches who are purely "using" these kids for their own personal gain. As I said earlier, those are probably the coaches finding themselves having to actively recruit kids to their programs.

Frankly, I'm tired of the everyone gets a ribbon attitude. We are talking the state meet where, yes, the best should be on display. State is not a participatory event for everyone regardless of ability nor should we be looking to get more kids "participating" at state just for the "experience". State is not about getting the most participants involved. It is a showcase of the best the state has to offer, or as close to it as the system allows. I don't know of any track and field coach "using" kids at state for their own personal gain. The season is about participation, the state meet is about the "cream of the crop". Life isn't fair, get over it.
 
Thank you Long May You Run,.

After a couple decades of 85-115 kids on the team as a result of coaches actively pursuing high numbers for both participation and depth of quality from all races, genders, socioeconomic status, religion, sexual orientation etc... , I would say the systems that I have had a pleasure of working with under great mentor coaches with more state championships that many would view as obscene, I'm confident the formula works.

Yes, we promote high participation and yes the cream rises to the top. Where is the top? The state meet. How do the kids get organized enough to crank out 18 events better than anyone else? A great cohesive staff that has common objectives that are best for the kids and that work well in educating kids and parents to all of the benefits of being involved in the sport.

I never have to look in the mirror with doubt when the same kids keep coming back all 4 years of their experience, even if they don't make the varsity squad and yet continue to improve and enjoy the sport. Why? Because they like what they are doing and know they are getting out of it what they put into it. They know they can trust their coaches that are absolutely honest and truthful every day. Nobody is twisting arms here.

As a mater of fact, the art of making believers out of non-believers is probably more effective than the technical side of coaching each discipline at the high school level. The neck-up. Those that have the courage to come out and overcome peer pressure to try something that is personally challenging without the physical contact other sports provide, learn a great deal about themselves and carry that over to their other sports. The individual confidence and motivation has to come from within which is really hard for a lot of kids to display. A little coaxing from coaches and classmates can go a long way with the best athletes right along with those that will never be. You have to show an interest in the rest of the kids' lives as well.

The bottom line to this discussion is, there is a championship season after the participation season. The best kids are developed over 4 years and through the course of each season. Nobody is entitled and nothing is carved in stone. The stopwatch and tapemeasure will decide until situations that require coaches to put kids in a position to succeed at the highest level must happen which sometimes means utilizing all 6 athletes, allowed by rule, on the card in the fashion seen most likely to achieve the goal, and that is to win.

Running #5 or #6 etc... in the state meet just to get another kid in the championship meet is a disservice to the other 3 members of the relay and the team as a whole if you really have a chance to let the kids lift a trophy over their head and take the victory lap together (all 6). Many times, the kid that is an alternate used to qualify is also qualified in another event so your participation concern is still hogwash. If they were good enough to help a varsity relay qualify, they are most likely good enough to qualify in another event.

As I've explained before, if there is no chance to be in the team trophy hunt, the coach will most likely not be manipulating the lineup and the individuals and best 4 on relays will be locked in to their events with that one alternate trying to find his own way into the meet or if lucky enough, on another relay.

Stick, good luck just waiting around and letting them come to you. Let me know how that turns out in a "non-glamour" sport that requires a little more hair on your you know whats to get out there between the white lines all on your lonesome and not hide behind 10 other guys. Also, just so you know, it's more important to me to have kids know what's good for all situation throughout their experience in the event they want to become teachers or coaches. I know how I would want my kids to be taught and coached. By someone who is fair but not letting them believe in fairy tales their whole lives either. It's a competitive world we live in and this is just one avenue to learn how to win with grace and to lose with dignity but more importantly learning the process and assessing for improvement.

But either way, that sun is still going to come up tomorrow and the lion must hunt and the antelope must run.

Stick, you better start running.
This post was edited on 5/16 10:13 PM by On Wings of Eagles
 
Wingnut,

You just agreed that "yes the cream rises to the top". That is hilarious because if the cream rises to the top why do they have to "use" the milk at the bottom to get there?????

The cream never made it to the top (the state meet) the milk did by qualifying. The cream wasn't physically capable of making it to the top so it used a corrupt rule to place it over the top of the milk since it couldn't and never did rise to the top.

This thing is corrupt because the kids who were the ones who did the work of qualifying are mere pawns for the "cream" that couldn't get the job done! The milk rose to the top and some coaches can't stand that!
 
Longrun,

Frankly I'm tired of the everyone get's a ribbon attitude too. Only the people who have earned the ribbon should get one wouldn't you agree?

Why then is a corrupt, immoral system allowed to take away the ribbons from the kids who actually earned it and just give it to other kids who did not earn it? They already have ribbons they have earned! Why do they get to steal more ribbons from the kids who actually earned them and most people think this is OK?

My position doesn't change. This whole thing is corrupt and immoral.
 
Casper/Schtick

Coming from a couple of bottom feeders, get used to looking up.

Until then, you'll either continue to hold kids back, evolve and adapt, or move on. It's your choice for your team and your kids. However, it's starting to sound like you guy(s) are a little disgruntled possibly about being that #5 guy yourself. Sorry.

If you are really coaching and not making changes to your lineup from districts to state, then that's really ok. It's your perogative and you are still playing by the set of rules handed down to all of us. We play differently and really, nobody is corrupt or doing anything wrong. It's just your opinion and hey, It's America...

It's hard not to compare to the 6th guy on the bench of that state bb game etc... They were probably used to help get to the big dance to give someone else some rest or if they got in foul trouble. Again, most unselfish kids and parents are ok with it and some aren't.

You do have the right to your opinion and you should take the time to continue sharing it with the Track Advisory Committee to be taken to the Board of Control. Like I said, the rules have changed several times over the past decade and could change again maybe with your insightful prompting.

If so, at that point, we will all continue to play by the same rules as we have in the past.

Best wishes.
 
For the people out there that feel the same kids who run at districts should run at state,
Let me see if I understand you. Say your 3200 #1 runner is also in your top 4 for the 4x8. He has a chance to make it in the 3200 and your team also can make it in the 4x8. Your 4x8 can also have a chance with the #5 guy. So you put the top 4 guy in the 3200, he doesn't make it to state, but is clearly better at the 800 than the #5 guy, so you think he shouldn't run at state in the 4x8-that made it- even if he is better than the 5 guy??? You would rather we just run the top 4 at districts and then the #5 guy never has a shot at being a part of this? Seems like that is going against your argument of letting more people be a part of this than the "cream." If we go with just running the cream in their 4 events without trying to get more there, the "milk" never gets a shot. You can't have it both ways. The 60's are over, it isn't "Peace and Love" any more.
 
Bottom feeders? Who is the bottom feeder receiving welfare in this deal?

At least the kids who qualified to run at state are learning a valuable life lesson. You can work heard and earn something yet someone can come along an take that away and give it to someone else while you can do nothing about it. That is how welfare works.

In defense of the kids getting to run who didn't earn it, I bet they really would prefer to kill what they eat and not receive a free meal.
This post was edited on 5/17 6:44 AM by ghost80
 
Your logic is twisted. You describe a welfare state with participation over going for the gold trophy if you have a shot.

I've made my case for both sides. You want rainbows, unicorns and butterflies. What you don't understand is that every kid that's on a team that has a chance to be the best "team" really does put aside all selfish personal feelings if it means they can still be a part of a winning team. Those that don't and think like you aren't in it for the team. That's ok too because it's a team sport based on individual effort but the power of getting people from all walks of life to work together for a common goal rather than hoping it all adds up with a "me first" attitude will probably not get the same residual effect for themselves or the benefits for the program over the long haul. More people are involved with this philosophy. They have to know their role, be ok with it and do their job just like life. Sometimes life sucks but not all the time.

Again, a team can still win together, including alternates prepared, when called on, to lay it down for each other when the trumpet sounds without winning one individual event or relay. To win the war, their are strategies and sacrifices that have to be made. They aren't passing out tootsie pops at the finish line this weekend.
This post was edited on 5/17 9:42 AM by On Wings of Eagles
 
It's so ironic that Wings brings up Tootsie Pops. Like most people I form mental images of people. The mental image of Wings which had formed in my head was the arrogant coach from "Remember the Titans" who when you first see him is sucking on a sucker.

Bout fell out of my seat when I saw Wings mention suckers!
 
Originally posted by ghost80:
Bottom feeders? Who is the bottom feeder receiving welfare in this deal?

At least the kids who qualified to run at state are learning a valuable life lesson. You can work heard and earn something yet someone can come along an take that away and give it to someone else while you can do nothing about it. That is how welfare works.

In defense of the kids getting to run who didn't earn it, I bet they really would prefer to kill what they eat and not receive a free meal.
This post was edited on 5/17 6:44 AM by ghost80
You and Stick need some maturing. Grow up and face the real world. Nobody is forcing these poor souls who don't get to run at state to go out for track and field. They will not be scarred for life, trust me. A relay is a team event in a sport that has team and individual events. The kids who run at districts and get the team qualified did their job. Most kids understand that going in, and they understand the role they play. And they understand the importance of their role. And they feel just as excited for the team at state as the guys, who they already know are faster, run. Track and field is pretty clear cut. The watch doesn't lie. Kids already know who the faster runners are. And what makes you think the faster kids aren't busting their butts. And if the team as a whole does well at state they are proud of the role they played. Most of them do not spend the rest of their lives bitter. But apparently some do. The life lesson they learn is that hard work contributes to success, sometimes your own, sometimes for your business, and sometimes for the benefit of others. And most times your hard work will go unrewarded and unnoticed, except to you. If you can't get satisfaction from that, you shouldn't be doing it anyway.
This post was edited on 5/17 8:39 PM by long-may-u-run
 
Long-May-You-Run you have an interesting post which I found interesting and actually agreed with in some areas.

Bitter? I'm not bitter and doubt many kids would carry a bitterness over this. If they aren't disappointed that they actually earned a berth in the state track meet and someone who didn't got to run instead of them you aren't being realistic. Much of your post is a fantasy about how things could be because kids train to participate in the state meet. Kids don't train to qualify and then cheerfully give it up so someone who did not qualify can step in and take their place. They might not complain about it and they might put up a happy front but if you think they are thrilled to let someone else take their spot you aren't being realistic. Do you think they are still smiling when grandpa, grandma, or a family friend enthusiastically congratulates them and asks them "are you excited to run at state" or assumes they ran and asks, "how did you do at state"? If little Johnny is smiling ear to ear while he explains why he didn't get to run to whoever it is because he still believes in Santa and thinks he is going to get something special for being a such a good trooper.

Last night I met a friend after work and this was a topic we discussed. He thought, "maybe if there are problems with kids being able to qualify and then are substituted for other kids that didn't qualify it was a sign that too many kids were allowed to qualify for state". I'm starting to see some truth to what he is saying because it is far easier to qualify for state in track than any other sport. How many slots are there per event per class for state track? 24. How many slots for Basketball? 8. Baseball? 8. Soccer? 8. Football? (It gets messy here). Some think 4 (those who make it to dome), some think 8 (substate), and some even try saying they made it if they are in the final 16. Any way you slice it your chances of qualifying for state in Track are a long shot better than the other sports. If you had 8 districts and 1 winner go from each that would probably put track on par with the other sports. That would also eliminate all the non competative prelims and condense the whole meet into 2 days or less. Now on the flip side you would also see fewer kids participate but if they are having their spots taken from them anyway by the kids who really belong on the blue oval I don't see much of a loss there.

Another interesting point brought up last night was the message sent to the athletes getting a free pass to state without qualifying. As we are seeing more and more frequently the better athletes are getting into more and more trouble. While atletes are getting more and more preferential treatment covering everything from grades to code of conduct violations they seem to be getting into more and more trouble when they get beyond their shelter of high school and hit the real world in college and beyond. While many kids might not be impacted by a few free rides to state there are a growing number that the last thing they need is another free ride for something just because they are a great athlete.

Sorry if I've offended anyone and sorry Long-May-You-Run and Spoon if you heard it here first that there is no Santa Claus but I'm hanging it up. It is very clear why some people want this rule and are unwilling to look at things in anything close to a realistic manner.
 
Originally posted by stickman80:
Long-May-You-Run you have an interesting post which I found interesting and actually agreed with in some areas.

Bitter? I'm not bitter and doubt many kids would carry a bitterness over this. If they aren't disappointed that they actually earned a berth in the state track meet and someone who didn't got to run instead of them you aren't being realistic. Much of your post is a fantasy about how things could be because kids train to participate in the state meet. Kids don't train to qualify and then cheerfully give it up so someone who did not qualify can step in and take their place. They might not complain about it and they might put up a happy front but if you think they are thrilled to let someone else take their spot you aren't being realistic. Do you think they are still smiling when grandpa, grandma, or a family friend enthusiastically congratulates them and asks them "are you excited to run at state" or assumes they ran and asks, "how did you do at state"? If little Johnny is smiling ear to ear while he explains why he didn't get to run to whoever it is because he still believes in Santa and thinks he is going to get something special for being a such a good trooper.

Last night I met a friend after work and this was a topic we discussed. He thought, "maybe if there are problems with kids being able to qualify and then are substituted for other kids that didn't qualify it was a sign that too many kids were allowed to qualify for state". I'm starting to see some truth to what he is saying because it is far easier to qualify for state in track than any other sport. How many slots are there per event per class for state track? 24. How many slots for Basketball? 8. Baseball? 8. Soccer? 8. Football? (It gets messy here). Some think 4 (those who make it to dome), some think 8 (substate), and some even try saying they made it if they are in the final 16. Any way you slice it your chances of qualifying for state in Track are a long shot better than the other sports. If you had 8 districts and 1 winner go from each that would probably put track on par with the other sports. That would also eliminate all the non competative prelims and condense the whole meet into 2 days or less. Now on the flip side you would also see fewer kids participate but if they are having their spots taken from them anyway by the kids who really belong on the blue oval I don't see much of a loss there.

Another interesting point brought up last night was the message sent to the athletes getting a free pass to state without qualifying. As we are seeing more and more frequently the better athletes are getting into more and more trouble. While atletes are getting more and more preferential treatment covering everything from grades to code of conduct violations they seem to be getting into more and more trouble when they get beyond their shelter of high school and hit the real world in college and beyond. While many kids might not be impacted by a few free rides to state there are a growing number that the last thing they need is another free ride for something just because they are a great athlete.

Sorry if I've offended anyone and sorry Long-May-You-Run and Spoon if you heard it here first that there is no Santa Claus but I'm hanging it up. It is very clear why some people want this rule and are unwilling to look at things in anything close to a realistic manner.

Stick, "Brevity is the soul of wit". That's OK, you can look it up.
 
Apparently the IAHSAA feels that the top 32 football teams make "state" as the top 32 teams that make the "playoffs" receive banners that say "State Qualifier".
 
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