Stands looked empty this year. Been a problem in the past as well. What would fix this? a Final 4 for each class !
Attendance at State , how to fix
- Thread starter CBCrusader1994
- Start date
Agree with LTlions1- Eliminate the consolations and play all the finals the last day. Start Tuesday instead of Monday. Tourney too long and grueling for players and fans.
Just for the sake of discussion, why is it a "problem"? If my school isn't playing, I prefer to watch the games on TV as opposed to driving to Des Moines.
Go to a Final 4 for every class
Start 1-a 2-a on Wednesday/ finals of Friday
3a/4a on Thursday/finals on Saturday
The place would be rocking and jammed full. Substate games would be beyond exciting, with few rare free passes like alot of schools get each year.
Of course this has been proposed by the schools and coaches but the Boone idiots and Wells Fargo would be out too much money and its all about them and their stolen money
Start 1-a 2-a on Wednesday/ finals of Friday
3a/4a on Thursday/finals on Saturday
The place would be rocking and jammed full. Substate games would be beyond exciting, with few rare free passes like alot of schools get each year.
Of course this has been proposed by the schools and coaches but the Boone idiots and Wells Fargo would be out too much money and its all about them and their stolen money
I guess I'm just dense, but I'm not seeing how this proposal brings more fans to the arena? Why would fans of teams who don't make it be more interested in a Final Four instead of the current set-up?
You must be too young to remember Vets when there were just 2 ( then 3 ) classes. Crowds were unreal for the semi's and especially the finals. Now that there are twenty classes and five thousand games is a watered down product but Boone boys probably get paid by the hour so they milk it.
To me, those are two completely different things. If you're arguing fewer classes will increase attendance, I'll buy that. I don't think the format of 8 teams or 4 teams matters at all in terms of attendance.
Sub state games were on Saturday February 27th. State didn't start till March 7th. I understand Girls state basketball was happening during this time. Why not make the first round of state or whatever you want to call it on Friday March 4th. Friday night people can travel and if a girls team is playing in state or something that Friday and their boys is supposed to play the game gets moved to Saturday. Every game can be played that Friday because 4A is done on the 1st 3 days before the Friday. 16 games played across the state do double headers with 1A 2A and 3A 4A so only need 8 locations.
Big arenas with tons of fans on a Friday night getting two games for 1. Then play at the Well Wednesday-Saturday. This allows two less rent days at the Well which I'm sure more than makes up for the loss they think they'll lose by having double site games for first round of state. Also can now push back start times instead of 6 games per day they only need 4 because only have 2 per class 1A-2A Wednesday then so on so forth. Have all consolations games on Friday and all Championships on Saturday. Start at 1pm then do the hour 45 like they have so it would be 1PM, 2:45PM,4:30PM 6:15PM. Everything is done by 8.
Also to determine the "1st" round of state just have sub state 1 play sub state 2 because they will be relatively close. Then when it gets to the final 4 you can reseed them which needs changed anyways. Seems to me instead of having a dead week we now have an exciting week of basketball and more tim between games?
Big arenas with tons of fans on a Friday night getting two games for 1. Then play at the Well Wednesday-Saturday. This allows two less rent days at the Well which I'm sure more than makes up for the loss they think they'll lose by having double site games for first round of state. Also can now push back start times instead of 6 games per day they only need 4 because only have 2 per class 1A-2A Wednesday then so on so forth. Have all consolations games on Friday and all Championships on Saturday. Start at 1pm then do the hour 45 like they have so it would be 1PM, 2:45PM,4:30PM 6:15PM. Everything is done by 8.
Also to determine the "1st" round of state just have sub state 1 play sub state 2 because they will be relatively close. Then when it gets to the final 4 you can reseed them which needs changed anyways. Seems to me instead of having a dead week we now have an exciting week of basketball and more tim between games?
The games would look like this year using the sub state winners and matching up sub state 1 vs 2 etc. 3A vs 4A I think might be a tad easier since near big cities. Do 5:30 Starts I think were all under 2 hour drive times.
1A West Hancock vs south Obrien
2A Western Christian vs Osage
Games at Spencer
1A Jesup vs Danville
2A Dike New Hartford vs Western Dubuque
Arena in Cedar Rapids US Cellular Center
1A Gladbrook vs Grandview Christian
2A Anamosa vs Pella Christian
Grinnell College
1A IKM vs St Alberts
2A Des Moines Chirsitian vs Kuemper Catholic
Harlan
1A West Hancock vs south Obrien
2A Western Christian vs Osage
Games at Spencer
1A Jesup vs Danville
2A Dike New Hartford vs Western Dubuque
Arena in Cedar Rapids US Cellular Center
1A Gladbrook vs Grandview Christian
2A Anamosa vs Pella Christian
Grinnell College
1A IKM vs St Alberts
2A Des Moines Chirsitian vs Kuemper Catholic
Harlan
Sadly I just think it's the times we live in now. Someone mentioned Vets and how packed it used to be back in the day. There wasn't as much technology back then, probably more father/son trips to watch basketball and bond. It doesn't seem like kids are as interested in that anymore. They can just follow the games via twitter while at home playing their video games. I sound old and I'm sure there are other reasons, but I'd bet that has something to do with it.
CBCrusader1994 - The state tournament went from 2 to 3 classes in 1975. Then it went from 3 to 4 classes in 1985.
How many people on this board do you think were around to see either of those two changes?
It's a different time for basketball attendance. There are many more entertainment options now in comparison to 30-40 years ago, which is why you will see basketball attendance dropped nationwide.
If you are complaining about the number of classes.....how about the Girls association having 5 classes instead of 4?
How many people on this board do you think were around to see either of those two changes?
It's a different time for basketball attendance. There are many more entertainment options now in comparison to 30-40 years ago, which is why you will see basketball attendance dropped nationwide.
If you are complaining about the number of classes.....how about the Girls association having 5 classes instead of 4?
If we're going to discuss "solutions" to decreasing attendance, we must first be able to describe the problem or whether one even truly exists (as someone pointed out earlier). The first thing to understand that as overall attendance has dropped the past decade, the Association does not lose money on the State tournament. It makes less profit, but it still makes hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars from the boys tournament series. When Boone talks about attendance, they are talking about their net profit.
To begin, the class with lowest attendance, by far, is 4A. The class the State caters everything to, by far, is 4A. That's a major problem. Unless we have a Harrison Barnes-type, 1A-3A casual fans don't care about 4A, and that's the bulk of our target fans. Most high school kids at 4A schools don't care about their 4A teams because there's just so much else to support/do. There are exceptions (Linn-Mar, Senior, for example), but the atmosphere of 4A sub-states or 4A championships even is just dead compared to the 3A's preceding them. 1A-3A attendance is solid and the atmosphere exciting because those are community schools. Those are the people the State should cater to and improve the experience for. Likewise, our state tournament is still decidedly NOT basketball-centered. You go to WF and get a program and you read more about officials and administrators than Hall of Famers or kids. We have 16 Farm Bureau infomercials. Go to Illinois and they have a "basketball experience" set up with hoops and interactive activities. And, their game speaks for itself; they don't spend hours reminding everyone who their exclusive partners are.
Going to a Final 4 format would probably have a negligible effect on attendance at Wells, but "probably" more would attend the "Super Regional" at a high school or where ever they host these, and the Association saves 3 days of renting and staffing at Wells and thus they, the IAHSAA makes much more profit than currently; Also, administrators love this idea because it's cheaper on schools and they don't have to miss a day of classes perhaps. However, is the product/experience better for players or communities in this scenario? I would argue no. The problem with this proposal is that basketball (and baseball) is already the most difficult sport to make it to state in. Statistically, if a kid wants to "make state" at some point in high school, track, wrestling, and football are the way to go. The state has expanded those opportunities for kids in the past 20 years. But Now, we want to eliminate teams and kids from the basketball experience solely to make more net profit??
The other problem we have is: why Wells Fargo? Why not see if we contract the McLeod Center? Why are we married to Des Moines for state basketball?
To begin, the class with lowest attendance, by far, is 4A. The class the State caters everything to, by far, is 4A. That's a major problem. Unless we have a Harrison Barnes-type, 1A-3A casual fans don't care about 4A, and that's the bulk of our target fans. Most high school kids at 4A schools don't care about their 4A teams because there's just so much else to support/do. There are exceptions (Linn-Mar, Senior, for example), but the atmosphere of 4A sub-states or 4A championships even is just dead compared to the 3A's preceding them. 1A-3A attendance is solid and the atmosphere exciting because those are community schools. Those are the people the State should cater to and improve the experience for. Likewise, our state tournament is still decidedly NOT basketball-centered. You go to WF and get a program and you read more about officials and administrators than Hall of Famers or kids. We have 16 Farm Bureau infomercials. Go to Illinois and they have a "basketball experience" set up with hoops and interactive activities. And, their game speaks for itself; they don't spend hours reminding everyone who their exclusive partners are.
Going to a Final 4 format would probably have a negligible effect on attendance at Wells, but "probably" more would attend the "Super Regional" at a high school or where ever they host these, and the Association saves 3 days of renting and staffing at Wells and thus they, the IAHSAA makes much more profit than currently; Also, administrators love this idea because it's cheaper on schools and they don't have to miss a day of classes perhaps. However, is the product/experience better for players or communities in this scenario? I would argue no. The problem with this proposal is that basketball (and baseball) is already the most difficult sport to make it to state in. Statistically, if a kid wants to "make state" at some point in high school, track, wrestling, and football are the way to go. The state has expanded those opportunities for kids in the past 20 years. But Now, we want to eliminate teams and kids from the basketball experience solely to make more net profit??
The other problem we have is: why Wells Fargo? Why not see if we contract the McLeod Center? Why are we married to Des Moines for state basketball?
I agree with having the first round of "State" played regionally, then the "Final Four" held in a two day format. Having a single game on Tuesday, then back to school on Wednesday, then back to Des Moines for a Thursday game is a real pain and I believe impacts attendance. You could shrink the entire tourney into 3 Days. You are guaranteed to see two games if you make the trip, and you only need one overnight.
Pretty simple really. As a parent, I'd love this format. When I was in High School, of course more time in Des Moines was always the objective.
Pretty simple really. As a parent, I'd love this format. When I was in High School, of course more time in Des Moines was always the objective.
I also agree with what a couple other posts pointed out: it seems to me like attendance at high school sporting events is down overall, so it only seems natural that attendance at state tournaments would reflect this. The technology point is valid as well. If my school isn't actually in the state tournament, I'm staying home and watching it on TV or computer because then I can watch NCAA games at the same time as well.
There just isn't a need to play at Wells Fargo. Too many seats. If you go to a lot of Substate Basketball, depending on venue, you see a lot of empty seats even there. So obviously Wells Fargo is going to have them. I agree moving it to the Mcleod Center or the Knapp Center would be the move.
Watching basketball games at Wells Fargo is terrible and I hate it. The vast majority of the seats are too far away from the action due to it being a multi-function arena. Why have an event in a 17,000 place when a venue with 10,000 is needed?
The Knapp Center or McLeod Center both have better game atmospheres and one would think those two would always be available for the girls and boys state tournaments.
The only knock on the Knapp Center is that the parking is terrible.
The Knapp Center or McLeod Center both have better game atmospheres and one would think those two would always be available for the girls and boys state tournaments.
The only knock on the Knapp Center is that the parking is terrible.
I agree. The atmosphere stinks at the State Tournament because the place seems empty. Almost has the feel of a scrimmage when the games are being played.
BINGO .... our state tournament is still decidedly NOT basketball-centered. You go to WF and get a program and you read more about officials and administrators than Hall of Famers or kids. We have 16 Farm Bureau infomercials. Go to Illinois and they have a "basketball experience" set up with hoops and interactive activities. And, their game speaks for itself; they don't spend hours reminding everyone who their exclusive partners are.
The Boone Boys love themselves ... Bernie is their god !
The Boone Boys love themselves ... Bernie is their god !
What's ironic is many Illinois fans have the same complaints about their postseason that we are expressing here.
This isn't why attendance is down. I agree that is all annoying, but it really doesn't have a thing to do why attendance is down.
Rick Wulkow actually floated the idea of a final 4 a number of years ago and it was shot down by school administrators at that time because only half the teams would actually make it to state.
At the same time he put out the idea of a shot clock, again not well received by school districts due to cost, another bench personnel and the fact that a shot clocks dictates how teams have to play the game.
Personally I support the Final 4, but not the shot clock
At the same time he put out the idea of a shot clock, again not well received by school districts due to cost, another bench personnel and the fact that a shot clocks dictates how teams have to play the game.
Personally I support the Final 4, but not the shot clock
Why doesn't that state pay for the shot clocks for every school. Make it a 4 year plan they already make tons of money. Year 1 start with 4A and can be experimental year. If it can't work there then won't work anywhere else anyways. Then move on down each year. By year 4 there will be a lot of consolidations so be less 1A schools by then since state is in favor of shutting them all down.
Hello ... then the Boone boys gravy train would be derailed. Do you really want them to lose their 6 figure salaries and those nice retirement packages we pay for .... after all they work so hard at honoring themselves and anyone that kisses their fat incompetent tails. IHSSA biggest scam since the IGHSAA ... what a joke
Okay...I realize by now that you enjoy ripping on the "Boone boys" as much as possible, but is it too much to ask that you at least keep the arguments relevant? We don't have shot clocks in this state, because...the "Boone Boys" don't want to wreck their salaries and retirement packages? Huh? That doesn't even make sense...
Thanks for the link. Good read.
I'm surprised that you read that article and still have such disdain for the "Boone Boys." From everything I've heard they do a great job of reaching out to coaches, especially the coaching associations, for opinions on various things. No matter what they do they will not please EVERYBODY, but that's what leaders have to do, make what they feel is the right decision.
And BTW, is it just me or is the "move to another venue" argument kinda dull? It won't have an effect on attendance (although moving to McLeod would probably have a negative effect since it is less centralized) but only make for a more packed looking arena. Really? We're arguing about that? I guess all the high schools that built beautiful new gyms should all go back to playing in cracker boxes because they felt more packed.
As for the real issue, the declining attendance, I think there are a number of factors, but I'll highlight two and neither have to do with the venue or the Boone Boys 
1. I feel basketball has slowly declined in Iowa (and the country) both in popularity and product. Kids don't play as much as they used to and are less skilled. 3-pt shooting is better because that all kids DO when they practice or play on their own. Plus it is what is constantly emphasized by most coaches for obvious reasons. Ever notice how many kids shoot 40+% from 3 and 50-60% from FT? That's crazy!
How do I know this is true? Stats for one, but also the vastly greater number of Sophs and even Freshmen starting on Varsity teams. If there was a Freshman starting on a Varsity team 25 years ago he was a STUD! Now many of these freshmen are starting because they are average and there aren't enough average guys to fill a Varsity lineup.
2. Kids and their parents are just not as attached to their school as they once were. There is simply too much going on anymore in the Winter time and there are much fewer communities where the school is the center of life anymore. Parents are busy shuttling 3 kids to 12 club sports teams and other activities that there isn't much time to attend school events like in the past. Add to that an increased apathy towards sports by the non-sports students because they now have more things to do than they did 20 years ago. It blows my mind how many basketball games I've been to in the past few years where there isn't even a pep band or cheerleaders.
As a side note, I think wrestling has survived because they have always had a more rabid following in Iowa (definitely a different breed) and there are SO many kids/teams that are involved in the State Tournament every year. You could have 3 kids make it to State and have 500 people from the community go support them.
Those are my opinions. Anybody else?
1. I feel basketball has slowly declined in Iowa (and the country) both in popularity and product. Kids don't play as much as they used to and are less skilled. 3-pt shooting is better because that all kids DO when they practice or play on their own. Plus it is what is constantly emphasized by most coaches for obvious reasons. Ever notice how many kids shoot 40+% from 3 and 50-60% from FT? That's crazy!
How do I know this is true? Stats for one, but also the vastly greater number of Sophs and even Freshmen starting on Varsity teams. If there was a Freshman starting on a Varsity team 25 years ago he was a STUD! Now many of these freshmen are starting because they are average and there aren't enough average guys to fill a Varsity lineup.
2. Kids and their parents are just not as attached to their school as they once were. There is simply too much going on anymore in the Winter time and there are much fewer communities where the school is the center of life anymore. Parents are busy shuttling 3 kids to 12 club sports teams and other activities that there isn't much time to attend school events like in the past. Add to that an increased apathy towards sports by the non-sports students because they now have more things to do than they did 20 years ago. It blows my mind how many basketball games I've been to in the past few years where there isn't even a pep band or cheerleaders.
As a side note, I think wrestling has survived because they have always had a more rabid following in Iowa (definitely a different breed) and there are SO many kids/teams that are involved in the State Tournament every year. You could have 3 kids make it to State and have 500 people from the community go support them.
Those are my opinions. Anybody else?
Id argue your wrestling point. Many teams in western iowa struggle to have 75% full line ups at the 1A-2A level. Countless meets were just forfeit after forfeit. Sectional wrestling having 3-6 kids is sad. Also what community is sending 500 people to state wrestling at any point?
I am not sure I would say that basketball is on the decline in Iowa, 25 years ago a player from Iowa going D1 was a rarity, now we have several that sign every year. As far as attendance goes, am not sure how to solve that issue, I know 3A and 4A coaches often complain about playing a State game at 7 or 8 on a weeknight especially if they are more than 2 hours away from Wells. I would not mind seeing multiple venues for the 1st round games based on proximity and then play the semi-finals all at Wells much like football does, where all the semis are in the Dome, and play all 4 Finals on Sat, I would also get rid of the consolation games, other than parents of the kids playing there are not many there to watch.
Go to 5 classes and play it at the Knapp Center at Drake University in Des Moines....maybe....
I don't like making more classes. For a simple and easy comparison, Illinois has a lot more schools playing basketball than Iowa does and they only have four.
I think playing at the Knapp Center would be a cool idea. Kids would probably get a thrill out of playing on a D1 court. I just think the powers that be want Wells Fargo arena in Des Moines to be how Vets was, tradition and all that, money may have something to do with it as well. I don't think having more classes will help either. Like someone stated, it's the lower classes that have more fans. The smaller towns seem to still have pride in their town and school. The bigger cities have multiple schools in town and more activities for the other students who aren't interested in sports. In 1A or 2A schools the same boys on the bball team are also in show choir, band, the Spring play. Not saying there is no possible way to get more people to come, just saying times have changed. Although the suggestion of not dragging out it all week might help and playing the championships all in one day would help too. But the whole money thing...
Agree .... and the season games are not packed any more. Too much drama involved in HS athletics any more with the parents calling the shots and griping about every thing a coach does or doesn't do. I remember the days of standing in line at Regional or Substate games just to get in the door.
The days of small towns shutting down to come to State are over. Casual fans can keep track of their teams through the diehard fans that go and post to social media.
Also, there are a lot fewer unaffiliated fans coming to postseason games just to see good basketball.
Also, there are a lot fewer unaffiliated fans coming to postseason games just to see good basketball.
This makes alot of sense , great ideas but because of this the Board of Complete and utter Control will never do it
Sounds like changing the state format is going to be discussed this year
http://m.neprepzone.com/iowa/white-...1eb-a50c-58d1-b909-00dfdc6a94f8.html?mode=jqm
http://m.neprepzone.com/iowa/white-...1eb-a50c-58d1-b909-00dfdc6a94f8.html?mode=jqm
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
Tennessee continues its dominance over lsu men’s sports- Latest: HONKifUvCOACHED4BAMA
-
-
-
