Regina VS Xavier...could the real winner be public schools?

[CP84]

Originally posted by HaydenHawk8:

Originally posted by hoopsfan2323:
BigDan-I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. It isn't always a dense population of motivated and talented student athletes. Those children have a higher % of two parent homes. Those two parent homes have more income. That income leads to more opportunities. Those opportunities lead to more success on the field, court, classroom, stage, etc. The areas of generational poverty have hard working kids. Those kids just have to spend their time working hard at Burger King, Wendy's, etc. They go to school then go to work for 20-30 hours a week to support their family. So what sacrifices do those kids make...they makethe sacrifice of extra-curricular activities. The demographics of this state have been and continue to change.

The state has said they will not do a multiplier b/c of the potential outrage about sending ________________ High School (predominately African-American) to play a playoff game vs. ______________ High School (predominately white). They proved it this week with their ruling during the Ames High/East High situation.

I know several high school students who attend private schools and are working at Burger King and other fast food joints. Not all kids who attend private schools are rich. My college roommate attended a private school and his parents lived paycheck to paycheck so he could attend a good school and get a great education. They actually car pooled to work and school as a family so they could afford his tuition. Served him right as he is now a professor at major university in the south. And he is paying his parents back every way possible.

While this is true that there is a misconception that private school parents are all rich, it is true that the average median income of private school parents is higher than their public school counterparts. It does translate to higher success levels in other areas such as academics, sports, etc... Private schools typically have higher median college admission exam scores and send more students to college. Another factor than money is what you alluded to. Private school parents are paying sometimes a significant amount of money to send their kids to these schools. When parents are that invested in the education, it typically leads to a higher degree of success.

This isn't a slight at public schools or vice versa, rather it's just an acknowledgement of the averages. Students can be just as successful going to public or private but private schools seem to get a lot less of the students who come from broken homes with parents who aren't invested in their kids. Those kids count against the BEDS and are less likely to contribute athletically.

 

[cyard31]

CP - I'm sold... I'm going to look into sending my kids to private. I should probably look at the beds count 1st to make sure my kid won't be the 1 to put them back into 4A or 2A... it would be a waste of time to get denied because of beds.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Broken home here, one parent doesn't work, living day to day, sends kids to private, kids seem to be doing well. I guess the stereotypes don't always fit. You would be surprised how many single family homes with high wage earners have many of the same issues as people from broken homes, sometimes worse because their kids have always gotten a free pass.

 

[CP84]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
Broken home here, one parent doesn't work, living day to day, sends kids to private, kids seem to be doing well. I guess the stereotypes don't always fit. You would be surprised how many single family homes with high wage earners have many of the same issues as people from broken homes, sometimes worse because their kids have always gotten a free pass.

It's the law of averages. Pointing out anecdotal evidence doesn't change the fact. What is your explanation for the significant variance in SAT scores between public/private if not for the facts I laid out? Look at the Fort Dodge schools for an example. SE routinely scores much higher on college admissions tests than FDSH. It's not that FDSH has worse teachers, it's that they have a higher percentage of more challenging students to deal with.

When I say broken homes I'm not simply referring to divorce. I'm referring to having one parent who either financially abandoned the kids, grandparents forced to raise them, parents with drug or alcohol abuse issues or just simply parents who don't have an appropriate general level of responsibility to care for them. Sure private schools have some of this too but nowhere close to public schools. Even public to public schools have wide variances for these same factors depending on location and tax base. Compare Valley HS to Des Moines East or Hoover. Valley has a 93% math proficiency rating and 92% reading. By comparison Hoover is only 64% reading and math proficient. It's no surprise that the affluent community surrounding Valley HS is continually a top performer in athletics with such an abundance of well to do, well rounded students.
This post was edited on 10/21 1:24 PM by CP84

 

[CP84]

Originally posted by cyard31:


CP - I'm sold... I'm going to look into sending my kids to private. I should probably look at the beds count 1st to make sure my kid won't be the 1 to put them back into 4A or 2A... it would be a waste of time to get denied because of beds.

Either you didn't read what I wrote or you didn't comprehend anything from it. Other than sarcasm your response is entirely irrelevant to my comments.

 

[cyard31]

Either you didn't read what I wrote or you didn't comprehend anything from it. Other than sarcasm your response is entirely irrelevant to my comments.



all of the above

 

[Vroom_C14]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
Growing number of states?

Yes Cid - aren't we up to like 56 states now?

 

[rkhemp]

This issue has been a hot topic from coaches for many years, even before Regina's current run. The state association is supposed to work FOR the schools, not the other way around. IMO, it doesn't matter what the Pro Private crowd or the Anti private crowd on message boards feel or say. The schools, the ADs and coaches, in the association should have the last say in this, not the boys in Boone. Let the schools vote and decide on the issue, and let the state run things the way the majority of schools want them to be run. The state has swept this under the rug for years and have turned a deaf ear, but will this change after this 2 year cycle?

 

[BlameIt]

Originally posted by rkhemp:
The schools, the ADs and coaches, in the association should have the last say in this, not the boys in Boone. Let the schools vote and decide on the issue, and let the state run things the way the majority of schools want them to be run. The state has swept this under the rug for years and have turned a deaf ear, but will this change after this 2 year cycle?

Do you really want this?

Really?

If it were up to coaches, private schools would be put on a multiplier or something different than public schools.
You can make book on that

 

[cidhawkeye]

Sometimes WOW, is all you can say.

 

[PNation]

People who bring up the wealthy vs. poor aren't completely correct and I am willing to admit that, but there are far fewer free and reduced type kids in the parochial schools than the public schools. I would say however what it comes down to is the number of parents who are not involved in their child's education in public schools. When this happens students become detached themselves and are not involved in activities or if they go out they tend to be cancer's to the team, the type that miss many practices but expect a lot of playing time.

The story about the parents who lived pay check to pay check to send their children to a parochial school, shows the type of parents that parochial schools have.

I am not saying that all parents at public schools are bad, many aren't, my parents did a good job. But public schools also have to deal with parents who shouldn't have had kids.

Sorry for the rant, this goes far beyond public vs. private schools, but I think it fits in this argument.

 

[DarkThunder#61]

Originally posted by PNation:


I am not saying that all parents at public schools are bad, many aren't, my parents did a good job. But public schools also have to deal with parents who shouldn't have had kids.

And while that's a fair opinion, that absolutely does not mean private schools should separate, have a multiplier, or play up a class. (And that's not just for you)

 

[rkhemp]

Originally posted by BlameIt:

Originally posted by rkhemp:
The schools, the ADs and coaches, in the association should have the last say in this, not the boys in Boone. Let the schools vote and decide on the issue, and let the state run things the way the majority of schools want them to be run. The state has swept this under the rug for years and have turned a deaf ear, but will this change after this 2 year cycle?

Do you really want this?

Really?

If it were up to coaches, private schools would be put on a multiplier or something different than public schools.
You can make book on that

Do I really want this? If you mean a vote the answer is yes. If you mean a multiplier the answer is yes. I've always been in favor of a multiplier with some sort of exemption process. I can understand why private schools and their supporters don't want a multiplier. The whole reason for classifications is to classify schools so there is not such a large discrepancy in teams. Nobody wants to see a Iowa City West beat up on small towns every week. Only a certain small crowd wants to see Regina beat up on small towns every week.

This post was edited on 10/23 8:34 AM by rkhemp

 

[BlameIt]

Originally posted by rkhemp:

Originally posted by BlameIt:

Originally posted by rkhemp:
The schools, the ADs and coaches, in the association should have the last say in this, not the boys in Boone. Let the schools vote and decide on the issue, and let the state run things the way the majority of schools want them to be run. The state has swept this under the rug for years and have turned a deaf ear, but will this change after this 2 year cycle?

Do you really want this?

Really?

If it were up to coaches, private schools would be put on a multiplier or something different than public schools.
You can make book on that

Do I really want this? If you mean a vote the answer is yes. If you mean a multiplier the answer is yes. I've always been in favor of a multiplier with some sort of exemption process. I can understand why private schools and their supporters don't want a multiplier. The whole reason for classifications is to classify schools so there is not such a large discrepancy in teams. Nobody wants to see a Iowa City West beat up on small towns every week. Only a certain small crowd wants to see Regina beat up on small towns every week.

This post was edited on 10/23 8:34 AM by rkhemp

we are definitely on the same page

 

[regaldad]

So a multiplier would be applied to all private schools.Waterloo Columbus and Burlington ND have had a tough go of it in recent years , does it apply to them as well.Over a 20 year period 3 schools come to mind as having great success in 1a, AP, West Branch and St Albert.2 of 3 being public schools. Your argument has little validity if any at all. Play the games and stop the whining. I wish good luck to all the teams in the playoffs.
,

 

[rkhemp]

And my argument doesn't go back 20-30 years, we are not playing 90s and 80s football games anymore. The game has changed significantly over the past 10 years. The coaches as well are tired of the state bringing up stats from the 70s. And just because I have a difference of opinion than you doesn't mean I am whining.

 

[cidhawkeye]

What do you hope the multiplier achieves?

 

[cyard31]

CID- it will achieve an A private winning a !A Championship, a 1A private winning a 2A Championship, a 2A private winning a 3A Championship, etc.....etc....

then we will have discussion about bumping them up again because they are in a metro area.

CID- FYI I met a Korean kid that goes to college with my son, said he graduated from Regina, I asked him if he was on the state championship football team... No was the answer. He said he lived with his sister who attends UofI. I asked him why he chose RHS over City, West. He said "Family Atmosphere" from administrators, teachers, & students he felt after his first visit.

 

[cidhawkeye]

I am just looking for what they hope the multiplier will accomplish.

 

[Cardinal2012]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
I am just looking for what they hope the multiplier will accomplish.

Put a BEDS value on a private school that would reflect the BEDS number if the school was public with special ed, kids that don't participate in anything, etc. It has nothing to do with stopping them from winning.

 

[cidhawkeye]

So why does it seem to primarily be an issue when privates when in football?

 

[Cardinal2012]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
So why does it seem to primarily be an issue when privates when in football?

I would guess because football requires the most team effort to win with 11 players on the field at once. Top end talent probably is relatively close between most schools, private schools just seem to have more depth for whatever reason.

 

[cidhawkeye]

So when it is the public schools recruiting in wrestling we should ignore that? Of course we should because it doesn't fit your talking points. It is a stretch of time where the stars have aligned. If we are talking about this in 4-5 years maybe we do something about it.

 

[rkhemp]

What are my talking points? I guess there are 2. 1. I believe the majority of SCHOOLS, yes the people who are most connected with the issue, the ADs, the coaches, the administration, would like a change. 2. The state should listen to the members of the association and take real action.

I get why the dads and fans of private schools are so against it and think it is the craziest idea of all time. The system is working just fine for you.

I also find it incredibly hypocritical of Regina's fans to bash all the bigger public schools around and say everybody is afraid to play them. If Regina really wants to play the big boys that bad, then why did they refuse to bump a class?

 

[Pinehawk]

Why can't people just admit it? That if Regina or any other public school were to jump a class and/or have a multiplier that it still wouldn't be enough if they continued to win. Many of the loudest complainers on this board will not be happy until private schools are not successful. Period.
You can read the same complaints on the 3A and 4A boards, it's not about what class the private schools are in.
Instead of trying to hide your end goal behind a multiplier discussion, just have the guts to be honest and tell the truth.

 

[cidhawkeye]

RH, what do you hope will happen with the change?
As far as bashing other schools I haven't heard that. I have heard 'we asked City and West to be on their list and were told no' feel free to share the quotes where coaches or players bashed any school. I admire Solon for keeping Regina on the schedule, Cascade requested to be on the schedule, Xavier said yes to the request. I would be surprised if you can find the 'bashing' you mention.

 

[RoundMound1]

I am no private school apologist. I have posted on these boards that private schools have the inherent advantage of having more involved parents on average than public schools. Privates around bigger cities have even more advantage because of the ability to draw better coaches (better chance successful coaches, most of who don't teach, will find employment) and more/better kids. There's also a better chance the players from these schools will have access to training facilities outside of their high school.

That said, I'm a little tired of all of the recent complaining about private schools. Do they have advantages? Yes. But this is true for some public schools as well. Schools like Solon, Pella, Grinnell and others that have a nice town that tends to attract more middle/upper class, stable families. These advantages have been around forever. Nobody was crying for lower-income, rural public schools like Eddyville, Van Buran, or Wapello or high-Hispanic schools like Columbus Junction, West Liberty and Postville when they were at the same disadvatage (and still are in theory) to their public school peers. Nope, all of a sudden it became a problem when those public schools who had been the "haves" all of a sudden became the "have nots" b/c some private schools "got good."

 

[rkhemp]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
RH, what do you hope will happen with the change?
As far as bashing other schools I haven't heard that. I have heard 'we asked City and West to be on their list and were told no' feel free to share the quotes where coaches or players bashed any school. I admire Solon for keeping Regina on the schedule, Cascade requested to be on the schedule, Xavier said yes to the request. I would be surprised if you can find the 'bashing' you mention.

Cid, feel free to share the quotes where I said the Regina coaches or players bashed another school. But I have heard plenty from the fan base. The following came from the Xavier thread by Big Dan. And since the schedules were released, we have heard over and over from Regina's fans how everybody is afraid to play Regina, and kudos to Xavier, and Kudos to Cascade etc etc. I just find it hypocritical how a fan base can rip schools by avoiding Regina, when it sounds like the state asked Regina to move up a class and they said no. Who is avoiding who? And again, below is just one example.

"I definitely agree with your points there. I just think it is funny that many of the schools in the bigger classes (especially 4A) assume they could beat Regina because they are 1A. I know a lot of players at IC West and City High that assume this. They make fun of the 1A schools. Yet when Regina tries to schedule them, they are too scared to accept the challenge. What's even funnier is that the Regina JV beat IC West High's JV by 3 touchdowns a few weeks ago." BigDan21





This post was edited on 10/24 2:40 PM by rkhemp

 

[regaldad]

Most of the high school kids in my neighborhood attend City High ( a great school) i feel no need to bash them.Regina for over thirty years was way below average in football.Nobody said a word when they were losing, but when they win we better get administrators involved.Just wondering when Valley,Harlan, and Bettendorf were pealing off championships did you feel this same injustice. Im going out on a limb and say no.Face it, you'll only be happy when no privates win championships. Watering down competition may well help your team win, but it's a gutless way to achieve it.

 

[rkhemp]

I could care less how many championships Regina wins. I feel they would win em in 3A. What game is more fun for you guys to watch, when you are beating top 2A schools by double digits, pretty much dominating top 3A teams, or sitting your starters the second half against 1A schools?

 

[Pinehawk]

Originally posted by rkhemp:
I could care less how many championships Regina wins. I feel they would win em in 3A. What game is more fun for you guys to watch, when you are beating top 2A schools by double digits, pretty much dominating top 3A teams, or sitting your starters the second half against 1A schools?

That might look a little different next year when a future Hawkeye isn't playing QB. Cycles happen, over-reacting to them would be a short sighted mistake.

 

[DarkThunder#61]

Originally posted by Pinehawk:

Originally posted by rkhemp:
I could care less how many championships Regina wins. I feel they would win em in 3A. What game is more fun for you guys to watch, when you are beating top 2A schools by double digits, pretty much dominating top 3A teams, or sitting your starters the second half against 1A schools?

That might look a little different next year when a future Hawkeye isn't playing QB. Cycles happen, over-reacting to them would be a short sighted mistake.

Hmm....interesting assessment. How'd your JV and freshmen teams do this year, again?

Oh but yeah sure tell us how much tougher it will be next year and going forward. Keep selling yourself short, Pine.

 

[DarkThunder#61]

Originally posted by regaldad:
Just wondering when Valley,Harlan, and Bettendorf were pealing off championships did you feel this same injustice.

I did. I'm not a fan of 'De La Salle' dynasties. Nor is the casual fan.

But you know who is?....the 'De La Salle's.

So I look at it as a situation where the needs of the 'many' outweigh the needs of the 'few'...

 

[captainamerica18]

I always knew Dark Thunder was just another pinko commie bastard. Let the market figure it out! Pay for play! (Insert other market-centric tropes as you deem necessary)

 

[Pinehawk]

Originally posted by DarkThunder#61:

Originally posted by regaldad:
Just wondering when Valley,Harlan, and Bettendorf were pealing off championships did you feel this same injustice.

I did. I'm not a fan of 'De La Salle' dynasties. Nor is the casual fan.

But you know who is?....the 'De La Salle's.

So I look at it as a situation where the needs of the 'many' outweigh the needs of the 'few'...

Ummm...guess what? St. Eds is a 'De La Salle'...

 

[DarkThunder#61]

Originally posted by Pinehawk:

Originally posted by DarkThunder#61:

Originally posted by regaldad:
Just wondering when Valley,Harlan, and Bettendorf were pealing off championships did you feel this same injustice.

I did. I'm not a fan of 'De La Salle' dynasties. Nor is the casual fan.

But you know who is?....the 'De La Salle's.

So I look at it as a situation where the needs of the 'many' outweigh the needs of the 'few'...

Ummm...guess what? St. Eds is a 'De La Salle'...

Nah we're more of a 'St. Eds'....

 

[Vroom_C14]

The only thing I would hope that it would achieve would be parity - games that are more competitive in general. There will ALWAYS be a few 50-0 type games, the fewer of those types the better for everyone involved.

Regarding the 4A vs 1A - the big schools gain absolutely nothing by playing them. If they win, they were supposed to and if they lose then folks talk. Most of that talk would be screams and even more pressure on those 1A schools (Regina) to be moved up and would put more fuel on the fire for a multiplier.

Be careful what you ask for...

 

[cyard31]

So if RHS moved up this would make teams like West Marshall & Wapello better? it is a cycle & Regina will someday be in a funk again. West Marshall is the example program.. Are you going to move up a team like Spirit Lake a class to create parity?

 

[cidhawkeye]

It would not make those teams any better, they would just get beat that bad by the team that had to bump down because you moved another school up. Multipliers have been removed from states because they don't have the intended response, I am sure there is another answer, maybe it is a success multiplier but does that punish the team that has 23 seniors that attended the school since elementary school and is loaded with talent, wins everything and then has a class of 10 behind it and they get bumped up? In that scenario that following team may be getting beat by 50 but that would be ok because they had been good the previous 2 years? I have read about these teams where their entire program has great records JH, fresh,soph,jv. Do we move them up in anticipation of them being to good for these other teams? Seems fair if we want to level the playing field. Maybe put together a list of all open enrollment players so we know who is on that team, seems fair enough to level the playing field. Lots of good answers out there, lets just start throwing ideas at the dart board and see which ones make it the most fair for everyone.

 

[Vroom_C14]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
It would not make those teams any better, they would just get beat that bad by the team that had to bump down because you moved another school up. Multipliers have been removed from states because they don't have the intended response, I am sure there is another answer, maybe it is a success multiplier but does that punish the team that has 23 seniors that attended the school since elementary school and is loaded with talent, wins everything and then has a class of 10 behind it and they get bumped up? In that scenario that following team may be getting beat by 50 but that would be ok because they had been good the previous 2 years? I have read about these teams where their entire program has great records JH, fresh,soph,jv. Do we move them up in anticipation of them being to good for these other teams? Seems fair if we want to level the playing field. Maybe put together a list of all open enrollment players so we know who is on that team, seems fair enough to level the playing field. Lots of good answers out there, lets just start throwing ideas at the dart board and see which ones make it the most fair for everyone.

Cid you keep throwing "open enrollment" out there. Remember ALL of a private schools kids are OE. Again, careful what you ask for...

1 School isn't going to make bad teams better, the school moving down won't necessarily beat those teams by same scores either (especially if you take a school that has been a bottom feeder for years).

I hope certain schools opt to stay in 3A even though their enrollment will drop them to 2A, I think there is more competitive games at the 3A level for the product that is put on the field.