KJ's contract extension...

[MitchL]

This and the timing are total head-scratchers. Why in the world not wait for 10 days until after Nationals? Does Pollard expect to be tied up with MBB and other issues that he can't evaluate results at that time?

The results and perceived improvement in the dual meet results over last season are primarily due to a much softer schedule and even weaker Big 12 conference. Is qualifying more guys for NCAAs the reason? Qualifying means nothing if using that as a barometer. Waiting 10 days doesn't affect recruiting one bit.

If this extension is an attempt at motivating the kids for Nationals, Pollard's reason might be relevant. But given that only one guy is even seeded... it's hard to expect much improvement over last season's embarassing results. Will ISU improve from 35th place? I think the short answer is yes, but that improvement at best falls into the 22nd-28th position, imo.

The old thread regarding ISU also raised a question regarding Nickerson's influence on the lighter weight guys. Given that Finch has regressed and Meeks didn't even qualify... and that Goettl and Mayfield are not likely to even place... I guess you have your answer.

My honest belief regarding the extension is one of two things...1- Pollard sent out feelers to guys and found little or no interest in being the next head coach, or 2- He hates the idea of yet another head coaching search and cares very little about the future of ISU wrestling. A good reason to drop the program within the next 3-5 years.

Outside of the legacy recruit possibilities, Jackson will never be able to recruit the blue chip Iowa kids. And as a Hawk fan... this extension only insures continued Hawkeye dominance for the forseeable future.

 

[se xc1]

I can't argue with you on any of this. However, I have to assume when you mention Hawkeye dominance you must be referring to them dominating ISU, because I can't remember the last time I watched a big ten tourney finals and NOT see a Hawkeye TAKEDOWN. And to be 100% honest, I don't think they took a shot, at least not one that wasn't a desperation shot. I never thought I would say this, but with the expectations that they are in IC, is Brands on the hot seat??? I threw in the towel and started cheering for the Hawks this year and as far as expectations go, I would say they have been a bigger disappointment than ISU. All I have heard the past 40 years is that we expect 10 national champs a year. They are from that at the moment. Hopefully they will right the ship in the next 4 days, otherwise there will be some grumblings on the east side of the state as well.

 

[MitchL]

While few Hawk fans are happy with a 3rd place finish at conference, most realize PSU is on a very good 4 year run with the Taylor/Ruth express. I suspect after next season, it goes back to a crap shoot between Minny, OSU, PSU, and the Hawks. Taylor/Ruth kinds of guys only come along once every few decades. And Iowa is even with Minny and OSU right now, so to answer your question... not concerned at all!

Now, if you would care to admit that Clone fans have given up on the program, for the most part, then we can agree on something. Hawk fans are, unquestionably, the most enthusiastic and outspoken fanbase in collegiate wrestling, imo. So I would guess there are some that are grumbling. But I would say that comes from having such high expectations. But I doubt many feel Brands is on the "hot seat". 98% of wrestling fans would kill for results like Brands has produced.

Now... if Iowa finishes out of the top 4 this season...I might have to revise my opinion.

Here's to a great Nationals!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[se xc1]

No comment on the "style" of wrestling at the Big Tens???? I guess it isn't the results or the competition as to what concerns me about the Hawks. It would be the no takedowns, no shots in the finals that concern me. None of the 4 Iowa finalists had either Taylor or Ruth. You know more about U of I than I do, for their sake I hope they are getting some very good recruits or we are looking at PSU having a string that will go on longer than just the Taylor/Ruth era.

 

[Iron Doc]

The Hawks will be OK. Not to worry.

Trust me, i'm a doctor!

(By the way, the day the Brands Bros are on the hot seat in Iowa City will be the day Hades freezes over. Just sayin')

 

[MitchL]

I've followed collegiate wrestling since the late eighties, I have have a hard time remembering any team having a 1-2 punch like Taylor and Ruth. They are bonus point scoring machines. If I tried a little harder, I'd probably be able to think of another pair so dominant, but none come to mind right now. When you get to Nationals... those extra points from bonus are like having another two extra guys scoring.

When they graduate, they won't be replaced by the same caliber of guys. And I feel pretty safe in saying PSU will return to the pack and by 2014/2015, it will be back to a dog fight between the top 3-4 teams.

I'm no expert, but Brands and Co. will always be in it.

 

[Iron Doc]

MitchL tells the truth., especially in paragraphs 2 and 3 of his 3/21/2013 post.

While I am not a fan of State, I am glad to see Gadson doing well for obvious reasons. I wish Willie could have hung on untill the NCAA tournament was over.

 

[MitchL]

Crow is officially on the dinner menu tonite. A GREAT showing for ISU based on what was expected from them. The Paulsen Bros. have done wonders with the upper weight guys at ISU.

Congrats to Clone fans for a better than expected showing so far.

 

[se xc1]

I would agree and add that I bet KJ had something to do with the upper weights success, unless working out with an Olympic champ doesn't help. I can respect a person for eating crow a lot more than someone who won't admit it. MitchL is a big man and deserves some props.

 

[MitchL]

One observation tho, regarding the final team standings... if you think about it objectively. When a team can finish this close to the top ten with 2-6ths and an 8th, it goes to show that really the top eight or so are really head and shoulders above the rest of the field. College wrestling has gotten to the point where you have very few teams that are really relavent and could be considered title contenders.

While ISU has made great strides from last season, I just don't see that jump to that top eight status given their current roster until maybe 2014/2015. They have gaping holes at the first three weights, and that's giving the incoming Moreno the benefit of the doubt at 149 for next year.

I had earlier thought UNI would pass them by next season. I don't see that right now. And I guess you have to give Nickerson one more season to see improvement in the lower weights. Somehow they need to find post collegiate guys and get them in the room for workout partners for Finch, Meeks, and others.

But KJ has saved his job with the improvement this season, extension or not.

 

[Superbee922]

"College wrestling has gotten to the point where you have very few teams
that are really relavent and could be considered title contenders."

College wrestling has always been this way. Over the past 25 years, only four teams - Iowa, Minnesota, Penn State, and Oklahoma State - have won national titles. In the 38 years prior to that, only 7 schools won national titles - Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Iowa, Iowa State, Arizona State, Penn State, and Michigan State. And those last 3 schools only won a single title each.

"When a team can finish this close to the top ten with 2-6ths and an 8th,
it goes to show that really the top eight or so are really head and
shoulders above the rest of the field."

Again, it has pretty much always been that way in college wrestling, although #8 Oregon State only finished 7 points ahead of #11 Iowa State at this year's NCAA tournament; not what I would call head and shoulders above (in my opinion).

While ISU has made great strides from last season, I just don't see that
jump to that top eight status given their current roster until maybe
2014/2015.

I can't see ISU cracking the top 4 anytime soon, but some of those 5-8 teams (Cornell and Missouri for sure, maybe others) lose a lot of firepower to graduation. If Moreno, Weatherman, and Gadsen improve their NCAA performances next year, that alone could propel ISU into the top 8. Now I realize that is not a given, but neither is it a given that Cornell and Missouri will replace their graduation losses with guys of equal ability.

 

[buf87]

Oklahoma will move up taking Patterson, Howe and Rutt out of redshirt and have all but Graham back.

Minnesota only loses Yohn.

 

[MitchL]

Superbee:

Those four teams that have won in the last 25 years are indeed the elite programs. I was a little vague, I guess, in my assessment. Back in the day you had many more Eastern teams that were a factor near the top. I refer to the Edinboros, Clarions, and those schools that rarely now enter into the conversation.

Let's face it... College wrestling is dieing before out eyes, as far as Nationally. It only stands to support itself financially at a couple of schools.

ADs' aren't going out of their way to support the programs, overall. Iowa, Minny, and PSU might be the exceptions. Hell, even some Okie State fans feel their AD slights the wrestling program. I would not be the least bit surprised to see collegiate programs gone in the next twenty years.

Your comparison of Oregon State to ISU raises a valid point. ISU is REALLY close to being top 8 next season. But they absolutely are light-years away from being a threat to a team trophy.

I guess if ESPN continues to air matches live, as they did this year, there is still a light at the end of the tunnel. I sure hope so.

BTW: This review system implemented this year was a COMPLETE joke. Get a NEUTRAL official to review the action. What ref wants to be basically admitting they missed a call? And coaches have now figured out a new way to get a tired wrestler a lung timeout.

 

[Superbee922]

"Back in the day you had many more Eastern teams that were a factor near
the top. I refer to the Edinboros, Clarions, and those schools that
rarely now enter into the conversation."

Actually, since 1970 those eastern schools you mention have rarely been in the top 5 of the NCAA team standings.

Edinboro - seven top 10's, best finish 6th
Clarion - two top 10's, best finish 6th
Bloomsburg - three top 10's, best finish 5th
Navy - three top 10's, best finish 9th.

Until the recent rise of Cornell and Penn State, Lehigh has actually been the most consistent top 10 performer from the east - 22 top 10 finishes since 1970, including two 3rds and a 4th. Lehigh finished 8th in 2011, 8th in 2012, and 14th this year. So they are still lurking around where they usually do.

In fact, with the resurgence of Penn St and Cornell, plus Lehigh performing as it practically always does, more Eastern teams are a factor in the team championship race than ever before.

"Let's face it... College wrestling is dieing before out eyes, as far as
Nationally. It only stands to support itself financially at a couple
of schools."

I doubt if wrestling truly sustains itself at any college, does it? For example, how many times per year does Iowa put 16, 000 in the stands at Carver-Hawkeye arena?

Hell, even some Okie State fans feel their AD slights the wrestling program.

LOL, that's because the Cowboys haven't won it in a few years.

"I would not be the least bit surprised to see collegiate programs gone in the next twenty years."

I hope that is not the case, but I fear it as well. The killing off of programs seems to have slowed to a trickle however.

"BTW: This review system implemented this year was a COMPLETE joke. Get
a NEUTRAL official to review the action. What ref wants to be
basically admitting they missed a call? And coaches have now figured
out a new way to get a tired wrestler a lung timeout."

Agreed.

 

[MitchL]

Superbee:

You're either a wrestling geek or one of the greatest wrestling historians I've ever came across!

But I will have to correct you on one point and clarify another.

1. Iowa's wrestling program actually generates an operating profit and is self sustaining. Don't know about the others, but likely few others can make that claim, if any.

2. My reference to Okie State was not concerning recent titles. It was in regards to some of their more die-hard fans claiming that the wrestling program got no favors from the AD concerning media promotion, advertising backing, and keeping the base updated on ticket info at various high profile events.

I think the recent return of PSU will result in an uptick in publicity out East and a rotation of a more frequent return of the National Tourney to Eastern cities. Albany and Philly, along with maybe a new site might be coming again. From a purely personal, selfish reason... I'd like to see it in the Central time zone permanently. The cost to attend the East coast events almost requires a 2nd mortgage!!

 

[Superbee922]

"You're either a wrestling geek or one of the greatest wrestling historians I've ever came across!"

Well, probably a little bit of both

. The internet has some wonderful resources that allow you to look up past results of NCAA tournaments, including brackets of individual weight classes.

Actually, where college wrestling has really fallen off is out west. Arizona State was a regular fixture in the top 10 during the years cited in my previous post, evening winning one NCAA title. Cal Poly and Cal State Bakersfield have had national champions and All Americans in the not too distant past. Those 3 schools failed to score 5 points combined this past year.

Oregon State was a regular top 10 finisher, and they have earned a number of team trophies (2nd and 3rd place). I was happy to see Jimmy Z get the Beavers back into the top 10 for the 2nd year in a row after an absence of 14 years. Great guy - great coach, in my opinion.

"Iowa's wrestling program actually generates an operating profit and is self sustaining."

I wonder if most of this money is in the form of camp revenues? I just can't believe the Hawkeyes have enough home meets to generate enough revenue to sustain their program.

 

[MitchL]

Yeah, I don't recall what is all considered, but the Hawks did average just under 10,000 per home event this past season. The ISU, PSU, and tOSU meets were actually considered "premium" duals where they charged more to the non-season tix sales. Regardless, Iowa has the greatest fanbase in the history of collegiate wrestling, and regardless of the location... generally has the greatest following at Nationals.

That's likely why so many are enjoying Iowa's non-titles since Omaha. Brands has a few things he needs to modify, I think, but Iowa will always be in the running year in and year out. And the Hawks will always get the most in-State studs.

 

[Superbee922]

"Brands has a few things he needs to modify..."

I would be interested to see what you think some of these modifications might be. I think Cael has some enormous advantages right now, to the extent that I don't know if other schools will be able to overcome these advantages in the near future. His achievements as an athlete / coach are the freshest in the minds of the teen aged athletes coaches compete for. (Today's 18 year olds were two when Tom Brands won his Olympic gold.) And he coaches in a state with the strongest high school wrestling in the nation.

"...but Iowa will always be in the running year in and year out."

Agreed. But I no longer see them as being the favorite year in and year out. They were at one time.

"And the Hawks will always get the most in-State studs."

Might this be changing? Just throwing this fact out there: Of the 9 all Americans produced by the three in-state schools in the recent NCAA tournament, only two were Iowa high school products. Both of them wrestled for Iowa State.

I wonder when was the last time so few native Iowans achieved all American status? I also wonder when was the last time the Hawkeyes did not have a native Iowan as an all American?

 

[doublelegtackle]

Where is Derek St. John from?

 

[Superbee922]

Iowa City West.

Thank you, doublegtackle, for catching my oversight.

MitchL, could you please pass the crow ...

 

[The Kid.v1]

Coach Jennings from Osage was the replay guy. Lot of TV time! He didn't like the reviews either, but I think that was mostly because it took time away from watching wrestling from an amazing seat! LOL

 

[PNation]

Actually St. John is from Belle Plaine he just went to high school at West.


There were some high school coaches who had a very good seat for the tourney.

 

[eyecy]

Originally posted by Iron Doc:

............................................................

(By the way, the day the Brands Bros are on the hot seat in Iowa City will be the day Hades freezes over. Just sayin')

While I agree that the coaching seat Brands brothers are sitting on is plush and comfortable right now, wait until or if Iowa State wins two or three duals over the Hawks. Zelesky was fired even though he won just as many NCAA team titles (3) as the Brands and he even had one more NCAA team runner-up (1) than the Brands.

Zelesky was fired after Iowa State beat the Hawks in dual meets two years in a row. If that happens again, expect the coaching seat in Iowa City to be blow-torch scorching.

 

[cidhawkeye]

The 6th place Big Ten finish might have had a little more to do with it.

 

[MitchL]

Back to a discussion regarding ISU... with the addition of Earl Hall to ISU, does anyone else see the days of Meeks in the lineup coming to an end soon? At the very least, I can see a big reduction in the amount of scholly money for Meeks going forward if he doesn't produce again this upcoming season.

I don't think KJ will let the current money for scholarships strangle him going forward if he has that much tied up with one guy. There is talk on the Clone site that getting Hall may have cost Finch some money. Certainly Meeks could be in a similar situation if he has another poor season.

 

[JoseyWhales]

Don't hold your breath waiting for ISU to beat Iowa in dual meets
but feel free to keep thinking positive.

 

[MitchL]

JW: I doubt too many Clone fans expect to beat the Hawks in a dual setting for quite some time. I think most would just like seeing the matchup be somewhat closer where ISU can win more than three matches. At this time, looking at next season... without knowing who wrestles, Gadsen is a favorite and likely Moreno. Unless some big transfer surfaces for ISU, they are big underdogs at every other weight.

KJ has saved his job for now, but a two year window has developed and we'll see how that progresses. And unless Meeks grows to a 141, his mat time may be gone with the arrival of Hall.

 

[eyecy]

Originally posted by JoseyWhales:
Don't hold your breath waiting for ISU to beat Iowa in dual meets
but feel free to keep thinking positive.

Iowa State broke a 30-meet losing streak to Iowa in 2005. The Cyclones won the dual meet again in 2006 and Zalesky was fired less than a month later despite posting the exact same accomplishments as the Brands brothers, 3 team NCAA titles and one runner-up finish.

It can happen.

 

[JoseyWhales]

Did I say it could never happen? I'm saying don't hold your breath its not going to happen anytime soon.
Not trying to argue but be honest with yourself, Iowa isn't close to dropping 6 matches to cy's guys in the near future. Why do you think Bael left?

 

[MitchL]

eyecy: Think about that for a moment... losing 30 duals IN A ROW to someone you consider a heated and hated rival. That's why Iowa vs ISU is no longer the rivalry it once was. A rivalry means the outcome is in doubt. The only thing in doubt when the Hawks wrestle the Clones is Iowa's margin of victory!

 

[SpecialforcesGB]

Big mistake giving him a new contract.