The Iowa high school athletic association might as well host the state football finals in Rome. All the catholic/Christian private schools in the finals this year. There's 7 I believe? It's time for a private school class.
Am I the only one sick of it?
- Thread starter GreasedPig75
- Start date
While I think the general argument of curtailing the success of the advantaged private schools is pretty lousy, the idea of starting a separate class for them is laughable. There are maybe 30-40 private schools in the entire state so they would all have to be in one class together. This would force teams like Algona Garrigan and Don Bosco to play the likes of Xavier and Dowling. A multiplier, while I disagree with its usage in Iowa due to the lack of merit the "recruiting" argument caries, would be the only viable option for trying to level the playing field. Anyone who suggests an entire class for only private schools (this means you, GreasedPig75) is pretty ignorant.
Time seems to move faster/slower depending on which side of the bathroom door you are on. The only viable reason to put in a multiplier in my opinion is to even the participation levels out. The demographic that usually comes with a private school easily has more participation on average than a public school. Without the state putting in the effort to put a tangible value on this participation discrepancy, the talk of one is moot. Personally, I also believe spec. ed. students should not count on the BEDS numbers for determining classes either, as you rarely see them participating, let alone making the impact of a Cook (Regina), Brittain (Van Meter), Sobotka (Mt. Ayr), or Parmely (Maquoketa Valley), which have been common names on these boards. Until the proper data is collected and a "fair" arrangement is decided on, there is no real merit in this conversation. Private schools have advantages. Fact. Private schools have disadvantages. Fact. In the meantime, let's try to enjoy the state championship games, at the end of the day it's still just a game played by a bunch of kids.
There are actually only 24 Catholic/Christian high school programs in the state. Five of those play 8-man. So, no reasonable person would think you could create a private school class with such a small group with such a wide range of enrollment.
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I personally like to see it. I hardly ever hear about this in girls sports. If you close all the catholic/private schools people would still be complaing. There will always be the Valley's of the world.
Cardinal why I agree that private schools do have a high participation rate there is no way the state can do anything about that. There are plenty of public schools that have outstanding participation by students, great coaching, and great parent involvement. Like you mentioned Valley and many more have some great things going in their communities. And while it does seem that private schools are really good at football you take a look at schools like Xavier, Regina and more and you see that their other athletic teams are good but not dominant by any circumstance (for example, baseball, wrestling, basketball, and more) As you mentioned their is nothing the state can really do about it because their is no logical answer and while it may seem that private schools are succeeding at a high level in football they are not even close to that in other sports. In most sports especially football coaching and off season commitment is the biggest factor in success, once the program gets rolling it takes awhile to slow down, that is why I think we see some of the same schools at state in certain sports every year (Dike NH vball, West high BBall, CCA softball, and many many more examples, when a program thrives kids get excited and the drive to win by players and coaches is contagious.
This post was edited on 11/17 11:16 PM by pribs36
This post was edited on 11/17 11:16 PM by pribs36
I opened this thread expecting it to be about how OP was tired of hearing people whine, complain, and make excuses of how teams can't beat private schools....but no, just another kid who can only point fingers and make excuses instead.
Actually there was quite the debate after the girls' basketball season.
Anywho....with 5 of 6 classes having a private school in the title game this year, I decided to briefly investigate. Here's some fun facts regarding the State football title game history of private schools:
- The first year of the Iowa High School State football playoffs had 3 classes with a private school in the championship game. (4A- Dowling, 3A- CR Regis (now Xavier), 2A- IC Regina) All lost.
- The first private school to win a state title was Bishop Heelan in 1975 (4A).
- First year a private school won a title for each class: (3A- 1976 Waterloo Columbus; 2A- 1982 CR LaSalle (now Xavier); 1A- 2004 CB St. Albert; A- 1995 LeMars Gehlen; 8-man- 2004 Remsen St. Mary's)
- Class A and 8-man have only ever had 1 private school win a title......*could change Thursday for 8-man
- There has been a private school in a state title game every year since 2002 (last yr there wasn't one).
- 2008 was the last year there was only one. (3A winner, Bishop Heelan)
- The 5 classes with a private school in the title game this year is the most ever...breaking the record of 4 set last year (4A, 3A, 1A, 8-man.....only 1A Regina won a title).......This year, 4A and 1A are guaranteed to have a private school champion.
- The 7 private schools in title games this year is also a record, which was again previously set in 2012 with 5 (in the 40 years prior to that, no more than 3 had ever reached the title game in the same year through all classes)
- In 42 years of state football playoffs, 10 of those were without a private school in the title game ('77, '79, '80, '81, '88, '90, '92, '94, '97, '02).............14 more had just one (10 in 4A, 4 in 3A)
- 1985 Bishop Garrigan was the first small-town private school to win a title (2A)....1995 LeMars Gehlen the first small class champion, from Class A (small class being 1A, A, 8-man)
A quick look at past state champions since 1972
shows a different picture from what is often painted
on this subject.
I may have missed some but I see:
4A, six titles by three Private/catholic schools. Bettendorf has 7 and
Valley 5 in that time.
3A, 3 titles by two Catholic schools, Harlan has 11
2A. 4 titles by three Catholic schools, E'burg has 6
1A. 6 titles from 2 schools,
A and 8-man. One each.
Again, I may have missed a few but surely not
a huge advantage for private schools.
shows a different picture from what is often painted
on this subject.
I may have missed some but I see:
4A, six titles by three Private/catholic schools. Bettendorf has 7 and
Valley 5 in that time.
3A, 3 titles by two Catholic schools, Harlan has 11
2A. 4 titles by three Catholic schools, E'burg has 6
1A. 6 titles from 2 schools,
A and 8-man. One each.
Again, I may have missed a few but surely not
a huge advantage for private schools.
I sensed some sarcasm, never let facts get in the way of a good story. Here is a newsflash, quit bitchng and get better.
7 out of 12 schools is a bit much.
time for a 1.25 multiplier and be done with it.
the IHSAA won't do that because they are a bunch of freaking woosies who won't hurt the establishment.
Look at what they did for the Cedar Valley Conference. My cousin who is an AD for one of the EIHC schools who went to the CVC and now the RVC said the state basically forced the other schools to take Regina. 5 of the 6 core EIHC schools (Wilton, Durant, West Liberty, Tipton, WB, MP) wanted to vote them out.
I have no problem who are in the finals. 3 years ago, Ohio where I am from, had 10 of 12 teams in the finals were Catholic. 3 of them were from the same conference. As a public school coach, we just need to get better at what we do. Find a way to get more kids out, get the kids who need to be out,out. Find a way to get better and stop the crying. I do not like playing the private schools any more than anyone else. They do have an advantage but the public schools just need to get better. The one reason public school football, and athletics in general are falling off, is that families are moving to the cities and going to the bigger schools. That is where the jobs are. This is an economic situation.
Take care of "What you can control - Do not worry about what you can not control"
This post was edited on 11/18 6:56 AM by rocket2004
Take care of "What you can control - Do not worry about what you can not control"
This post was edited on 11/18 6:56 AM by rocket2004
In states that have put in a multiplier the % of championships won by private schools hasn't declined significantly.
I think it is important to separate myself from the "Just work harder, damn it!" crowd. I completely understand, firsthand, the advantages held by private schools. To claim that private schools just "want it more" is ignorant. Higher SES correlates with more involved parents, higher self-esteem, healthier diets, more off-season/personal training, etc. The list goes on and on. "Rich kids" have a greater likelihood to achieve success. These are, unfortunate as they may be, facts. It sucks, I know. I wish there was something we could do about it, I honestly do. The issue is, there is no viable solution at the moment. The separate class is stupid for obvious reasons and most likely suggested by stupid people. The multiplier, while currently the most viable solution, is still pretty much ineffective in the states that do use it. My problem with these "solutions" is that they are band-aids being placed on a gaping wound. One does not fix this problem by altering the effects. It is my belief that we have to address the cause in order to truly fix this disparity. As one can imagine, this has less to do with sports and more to do with education in general, but we need to be pulling our public education up instead of trying to pretend like its alright by smoke and mirror tricks to create an illusion that it is competing with the private school system. If I had the detailed solution to this problem I would probably be making millions of dollars from book sales or President so don't look to me for answers. It is simply ridiculous to either claim that there is no problem or that the solution is to be directed at the private schools rather than the struggling public schools.
I agree, that a multiplier should be warranted by the State at 1.35 (like most states). The state is not nearly big enough to have its own separate class but i do BELIEVE a multiplier should and will be implemented in the near future in Iowa.
And, if a multiplier was implemented and there were still 7 private school teams in the finals...then fans would cry for a 1.75 multiplier. And, if that didn't reduce the success of private schools enough, they'd want a 2.0 multiplier, etc...
Let's be honest. There is no scenario where many of the most vocal complainers would be happy with any private schools having sustained success.
The reason for the multiplier isn't to limit the success of private schools, it is to "even the playing field" in situations of major discrepancies in participation. While the same schools may still win, they would be doing it in a different class in most situations.
"The reason for the multiplier isn't to limit the success of private schools, it is to "even the playing field" in situations of major discrepancies in participation. While the same schools may still win, they would be doing it in a different class in most situations."
So now the issue is participation? This appears to be a constantly moving target between recruiting allegations, geographical locations, rich parents, etc, etc, etc.
This post was edited on 11/18 10:08 AM by ljb33
So now the issue is participation? This appears to be a constantly moving target between recruiting allegations, geographical locations, rich parents, etc, etc, etc.
This post was edited on 11/18 10:08 AM by ljb33
EXCELLENT post.
I agree 100%.
I'm not sure which crowd is more annoying and idiotic.
Crowd A that says:
"they recruit, it's unfair"
"We need a separate class"
Or crowd B that says:
"You just need to work harder, deal with it"
"Private schools are actually at a disadvantage"
Both sides are equally ignorant.
Well said,
For whatever reasons it seems like the number of private schools in the final 4 have gone up the past few years with the majority of these schools being in or near areas of larger population than the class they play in. The fact that a 2A sized davenport assumption can do as well in 4A as they do every year tells me a lot. There is too much smoke for there to be no fire to this trend. If private schools continue to dominate as they have been then things will eventually suffer for the boys in Boone because playing for second every year takes the excitement out of the game. One factor that gets overlooked too is that private schools (especially in bigger areas) have a lot more flexibility in obtaining coaches. In smaller town public school you are pretty much limited to who you got roaming the class rooms for coaches. There is a reason Dick Tighe was no longer viable in Webster city but was at FDSE and it was not his coaching ability.
Say we bumped the privates up a class this year. How would it look?
Don Bosco to Class A- I'd say they have trouble beating West Lyon, BMG and probably others. No final 4.
Regina and St. Eds to 2A- Regina still likely wins but I'd like to think Waukon makes them work a bit harder than they have had to. St. Eds does not make final 4 in 2A IMO.
Kuemper to 3A- they did be Carroll public in a close one but would have had to do that again plus beat Harlan. Certainly not as likely as it was in 2A.
Heelan to 4A- Competitive but not betting on them beating out Dowling and Valley. So with the bump I think you go from 7 in the final 4 for private schools to 3 or 4.
Regarding the data posted regarding championships etc.
I am really most interested in what the data the last 10 years or so says. going back any further than that doesn't really represent what has taken place in our country in regards to athletics becoming big biz and all as well as the decline of the public school/family etc.
Also, I believe just showing championships is not an accurate reflection. Win/loss records and post season success is a more telling statistic than just winning state titles.
This post was edited on 11/18 10:32 AM by icu81222
I am really most interested in what the data the last 10 years or so says. going back any further than that doesn't really represent what has taken place in our country in regards to athletics becoming big biz and all as well as the decline of the public school/family etc.
Also, I believe just showing championships is not an accurate reflection. Win/loss records and post season success is a more telling statistic than just winning state titles.
This post was edited on 11/18 10:32 AM by icu81222
If the state tries to do something stupid like a multiplier or separate class I'd like to see all of the private schools form their own athletic association. Screw the state and deny them the money.
In the end there are 11 high school kids playing against 11 other high school kids. Yeah you can pull the rich kid card but in the end, every kid is gonna have shells and a pair of cleats. Being catholic doesn't make you stronger? Being rich doesn't make you faster?
Sounds like a bunch of little girls trying to make excuses for the fact that their precious teams lost. "Hey that school is catholic thats not fair?" might as well say, "Hey that schools colors are red, thats not fair?"
Find a real argument.
Sounds like a bunch of little girls trying to make excuses for the fact that their precious teams lost. "Hey that school is catholic thats not fair?" might as well say, "Hey that schools colors are red, thats not fair?"
Find a real argument.
In Wisconsin, a state that has a lot more private schools than Iowa, not a single private school made it to the finals in any of their 7 divisions. So exactly what obstacles do the Iowa Public schools have that the Wisconsin Public schools don't? Should they change their system so that the private schools are more competitive?
Both groups have their advantages and disadvantages. However, simply because private schools have an unusual year of success is no reason to separate the schools - all schools follow the same athletic association guidelines.
Both groups have their advantages and disadvantages. However, simply because private schools have an unusual year of success is no reason to separate the schools - all schools follow the same athletic association guidelines.
Who knows if the state will do anything but if the private schools made their own athletic association the state would not give a crap. There are not enough of them to have any kind of impact on the revenue. The fans of the public schools will easily keep the flow of income right where it was before they left.
In the end there are 11 high school kids playing against 11 other high
school kids. Yeah you can pull the rich kid card but in the end, every
kid is gonna have shells and a pair of cleats. Being catholic doesn't
make you stronger? Being rich doesn't make you faster?
Sounds
like a bunch of little girls trying to make excuses for the fact that
their precious teams lost. "Hey that school is catholic thats not fair?"
might as well say, "Hey that schools colors are red, thats not fair?"
Find a real argument.
This---^^
The teams that win are the teams that have the highest % of on-field/court/pitch participants that know the play and their assignments the highest % of the time. Yea, I know...DUH! But, anyone that works with teenagers knows that getting and maintaining focus is difficult.
school kids. Yeah you can pull the rich kid card but in the end, every
kid is gonna have shells and a pair of cleats. Being catholic doesn't
make you stronger? Being rich doesn't make you faster?
Sounds
like a bunch of little girls trying to make excuses for the fact that
their precious teams lost. "Hey that school is catholic thats not fair?"
might as well say, "Hey that schools colors are red, thats not fair?"
Find a real argument.
This---^^
The teams that win are the teams that have the highest % of on-field/court/pitch participants that know the play and their assignments the highest % of the time. Yea, I know...DUH! But, anyone that works with teenagers knows that getting and maintaining focus is difficult.
First off this argument will never go away. An all Private school playoff is laughable. There aren't enough private school in Iowa to do that. Go ahead and slap a multiplier on private schools. Then when there are 5 Catholic schools in the finals again it will be on you. Do you realize that Assumption would be 3A even with your multiplier?
My kids went to Xavier and I have to tell you it is really hard to see this argument every year. It's always easier to look in from the outside and complain when you really don't know what the facts are.
My wife and I don't make a lot of money and we surely are not rich. We made sacrifices to send out kids to Xavier. Not for sports, but for our kids to get a great education in a catholic environment. Both our daughters went on to college with academic scholarships of some sort. One went in to UNI as a second semester sophomore. And lots of our friends and our kids friends families aren't rich either. The economic make up of Xavier is no different than say Linn Mar or Kennedy or most large city high schools in eastern Iowa. Sure there are some schools where a large number or families have economic issues, but those used to be the schools where some of Iowa's best athletes and teams came from. So what do you do about them? Let them drop down a class?
Xavier's head coach has a law degree from Iowa, yet he chooses to teach history and law at Xavier. Ever seen the difference between teachers pay at a catholic school vs a public school. He has been the only coach they have ever had and he does it because he loves it. And half of the boys in the school line up to be on the football team because of it!!!!!!!!!!!!
And how come I never see this argument in Basketball,Wrestling or even Baseball Season?
I didn't hear anyone complain all those years when Xavier first opened and elected to play in the MVC. They were a small 3A school getting crushed in a lot of games. A good season was 5 and 4.
I know it's not as easy as saying ."your team needs to get better!" But there is something to be said for that!
Go to the Illinois State web site! Look up Rochester High School. They are on their way to winning their class for the 4th year in a row. They got good coaching and good parent support and they are a very successful public school. And they play in a Conference where all the schools are larger than them.
My kids went to Xavier and I have to tell you it is really hard to see this argument every year. It's always easier to look in from the outside and complain when you really don't know what the facts are.
My wife and I don't make a lot of money and we surely are not rich. We made sacrifices to send out kids to Xavier. Not for sports, but for our kids to get a great education in a catholic environment. Both our daughters went on to college with academic scholarships of some sort. One went in to UNI as a second semester sophomore. And lots of our friends and our kids friends families aren't rich either. The economic make up of Xavier is no different than say Linn Mar or Kennedy or most large city high schools in eastern Iowa. Sure there are some schools where a large number or families have economic issues, but those used to be the schools where some of Iowa's best athletes and teams came from. So what do you do about them? Let them drop down a class?
Xavier's head coach has a law degree from Iowa, yet he chooses to teach history and law at Xavier. Ever seen the difference between teachers pay at a catholic school vs a public school. He has been the only coach they have ever had and he does it because he loves it. And half of the boys in the school line up to be on the football team because of it!!!!!!!!!!!!
And how come I never see this argument in Basketball,Wrestling or even Baseball Season?
I didn't hear anyone complain all those years when Xavier first opened and elected to play in the MVC. They were a small 3A school getting crushed in a lot of games. A good season was 5 and 4.
I know it's not as easy as saying ."your team needs to get better!" But there is something to be said for that!
Go to the Illinois State web site! Look up Rochester High School. They are on their way to winning their class for the 4th year in a row. They got good coaching and good parent support and they are a very successful public school. And they play in a Conference where all the schools are larger than them.
The one solution to the issue. Get better. Why complain when someone is better than you. Get your butt in the weight room, go to agility drills and get better. Get coaches that get their students to go out and participate. Remember when you point your finger you have three pointing back at you. Winning a state championship isn't easy nor should it be. I guarantee you every school in the semis and the finals all worked their butt off to get there. They didn't bitch and moan about things being fair or "not right".
You know all those t shirts and sweatshirts that have the cheesey sayings about working harder than the other person are very true. The problem is not everybody does it. The fact that there are a bunch of private schools this year means they worked harder than you did. Take the challenge and get better.
You know all those t shirts and sweatshirts that have the cheesey sayings about working harder than the other person are very true. The problem is not everybody does it. The fact that there are a bunch of private schools this year means they worked harder than you did. Take the challenge and get better.
Since the laws of economics tell us that those who are better at their craft get paid more, and public school teachers make more than private school teacher, public school kids must get a better education than private school kids. That being said, can we use the multiplier to calculate ACT/SAT scores too? That way, when private school kids compete against public school kids for scholarships and college entrance, it is on an equal playing field. We'll go with the 1.35 model. A private school kid who gets a 30 on the ACT would be treated as if he/she has a 40, I rounded down. Seems fair enough to me. Thanks for the idea.
Ho boy, this thread took off in a hurry....
Wrestling, nobody complains except for about Don Bosco but they didn't have a championship-winning team last year so nobody complained...funny how that works.
And there's not enough traffic in the baseball forum for anyone to spark the debate over there.
And while I guess I could look back in some other forums, I think this is about as lengthy of a discussion on this issue on the football boards as I've seen. As I mentioned, this year has the most teams/classes with a private school in the title game ever. 2012 and 2013 have seen the most. Before that, there were barely a handful in any given year (3 at most through 40 years), so those teams were much more individually scrutinized as opposed to the whole private school population.
For basketball, you're just not looking hard enough. I think the multi-paged private school debate thread is still there somewhere. There's usually one every year.
Wrestling, nobody complains except for about Don Bosco but they didn't have a championship-winning team last year so nobody complained...funny how that works.
And there's not enough traffic in the baseball forum for anyone to spark the debate over there.
And while I guess I could look back in some other forums, I think this is about as lengthy of a discussion on this issue on the football boards as I've seen. As I mentioned, this year has the most teams/classes with a private school in the title game ever. 2012 and 2013 have seen the most. Before that, there were barely a handful in any given year (3 at most through 40 years), so those teams were much more individually scrutinized as opposed to the whole private school population.
Your bitter but why, because it's just not fair? Do you really believe that those schools have an unfair advantage. Ask the coaches of the schools that they have beaten. They won't give you excuses they will tell you they need to get better. I am in no way associated with a private school, so I have no allegiance to the private schools.
As simplistic as it seems the whole get better attitude is the answer. What else is there. To be the best you truly should want to beat the best. I realize these are cliches but this is what sports are about! The best of the best.
This post was edited on 11/18 1:26 PM by farhawks
As simplistic as it seems the whole get better attitude is the answer. What else is there. To be the best you truly should want to beat the best. I realize these are cliches but this is what sports are about! The best of the best.
This post was edited on 11/18 1:26 PM by farhawks
I TOTALY AGREE!!!!!!!! Get involved and stop bitching! At most the Catholic School you have average talented kids working very hard with the help of family, coaches, and community.
If, Let's say Xavier has an unfair advantage because "they are rich Kids" not to mention the "R" word (Recruiting), Why don't they have 3 or 4 division I college athletes every year? Do you know how many Division 1 players Xavier has had in Football to date ..1!!!!! And he's a Freshman long snapper at a big 12 college not on full scholarship. Only 1 NCAA division 1AA player in the last 16 years. at UNI!
It's all about Commitment and Coaching! So they work hard and you think they should be punished for theirs success? In a day and age where everyone is saying our kids aren't the workers past generations were, the hard working high school football player is a bad thing.
I read on the 4A post last fall that in Minnesota if you have a large number of free student lunches, and your football team isn't successful you can partition to play down to the next class. Not sure if it's true but I'm expecting to see that here soon!
From the looks of the replies here I think the only people who should be sick of this is the supporters if Private Schools!
If, Let's say Xavier has an unfair advantage because "they are rich Kids" not to mention the "R" word (Recruiting), Why don't they have 3 or 4 division I college athletes every year? Do you know how many Division 1 players Xavier has had in Football to date ..1!!!!! And he's a Freshman long snapper at a big 12 college not on full scholarship. Only 1 NCAA division 1AA player in the last 16 years. at UNI!
It's all about Commitment and Coaching! So they work hard and you think they should be punished for theirs success? In a day and age where everyone is saying our kids aren't the workers past generations were, the hard working high school football player is a bad thing.
I read on the 4A post last fall that in Minnesota if you have a large number of free student lunches, and your football team isn't successful you can partition to play down to the next class. Not sure if it's true but I'm expecting to see that here soon!
From the looks of the replies here I think the only people who should be sick of this is the supporters if Private Schools!
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