Well.. it's a done deal....4A Districts in Eastern Iowa.... Xavier, Wahlert & Assumption are all going 3A... Assumption might even go 2A if their enrollment dictates it... So... Xavier in title game next year vs. who? LOL!
3A
- Thread starter Crusader Power
- Start date
It will be Xavier vs Heelan for many years to come...
If Assumption drops to 2A they will not be tested - at all.
Good to see that the champs from 1A-2A-3A will all be private for the foreseeable future. Great job IHSAA!!
For those 3A board members who may not have heard, it may not quite be a done deal yet, but the fat lady is clearing her throat. Wahlert is on the brink of choosing 3A football for next year. If Wahlert goes, Xavier's AD says they will go 3A as well. And Assumption appears ready to leave 4A, too. December 20 is the date when schools have to inform the IAHSAA if they want to play up, or if they choose to play in their enrollment category.
I guess we have to see where the attendance numbers fall for next year, but yeah ... looks like certainly Nevada, South Tama, Oelwein and Anamosa were already dropping into 2A attendance territory this year. And Centerville's pretty darn close. Lewis Central is on the boundary of joining 4A, but if their BEDS number falls from this year's 702 I guess they stay in 3A.
Using current BEDS numbers (which will change in January, right?) and given 45 4A teams, the next 56 would be cut off at 101, which is MOC-Floyd Valley with a BEDS of 308. Just above that are Boundurant-Farrar (311), Williamsburg (315), and Atlantic and Crestwood-Cresco (321). Just below MOC-Floyd Valley are Center Point-Urbana (307), Centerville (306), Nevada (302), and Spirit Lake, South Tama and Gilbert (300).
So depending on variations in the numbers for next year, the split will be somewhere among those 11 schools, I guess. Unless there's a surge in next year's freshman class at Oelwein (299), Greene County (296), Anamosa (296), Waukon (295), Union (294) or Iowa Falls (293), that could move one or more of them up.
I guess we wait until January to find out?
Xavier Prepared To Go 3A
I guess we have to see where the attendance numbers fall for next year, but yeah ... looks like certainly Nevada, South Tama, Oelwein and Anamosa were already dropping into 2A attendance territory this year. And Centerville's pretty darn close. Lewis Central is on the boundary of joining 4A, but if their BEDS number falls from this year's 702 I guess they stay in 3A.
Using current BEDS numbers (which will change in January, right?) and given 45 4A teams, the next 56 would be cut off at 101, which is MOC-Floyd Valley with a BEDS of 308. Just above that are Boundurant-Farrar (311), Williamsburg (315), and Atlantic and Crestwood-Cresco (321). Just below MOC-Floyd Valley are Center Point-Urbana (307), Centerville (306), Nevada (302), and Spirit Lake, South Tama and Gilbert (300).
So depending on variations in the numbers for next year, the split will be somewhere among those 11 schools, I guess. Unless there's a surge in next year's freshman class at Oelwein (299), Greene County (296), Anamosa (296), Waukon (295), Union (294) or Iowa Falls (293), that could move one or more of them up.
I guess we wait until January to find out?
Xavier Prepared To Go 3A
What do you mean, "cowards"? Xavier playing in their correct class by enrollment is cowardice? You think they should volunteer to play schools two, three or four times their size, just because they've had success over the past seven or eight years?
If you think the state should require more out of private schools, I guess that's understandable (although all the angst out of this year's playoffs is kind of silly, seeing as parochial school state championships in football aren't really a trend - this was an outlier of a year). But why accuse a school of cowardice because they are following the rules as they are set up?
You can't assume Xavier is going to steamroll everybody just because they go 3A. For one thing, I think participation is going to drop. There won't be any more 80-man rosters, both because the youth numbers aren't that big and because the program loses that 4A status. Second, programs like Decorah, Solon, Pella and Heelan are pretty strong. Xavier lost to a 6-3 Cedar Rapids Washington team last year that might have struggled against any of those four. And thirdly, Xavier is potentially giving up ticket sales in 3A. While they still might get some metro opponents in non-district play, chances are they won't sell as many tickets to fans of Vinton-Shellsburg or Anamosa as they do for Prairie or Cedar Falls or Linn-Mar.
I personally feel that's it's a shame that Xavier is giving up their tradition and history of being a 4A football team. But you can't call them "cowards" for following the requirements and obligations of every other school in the state (assuming Wahlert and Assumption both move to 3A as well). If you think the state needs to change the system, that's on the state. Why single out Xavier to do something no public school in the state is being asked to do (Why isn't Valley playing against Division 3 college teams? They're big enough).
If you think the state should require more out of private schools, I guess that's understandable (although all the angst out of this year's playoffs is kind of silly, seeing as parochial school state championships in football aren't really a trend - this was an outlier of a year). But why accuse a school of cowardice because they are following the rules as they are set up?
You can't assume Xavier is going to steamroll everybody just because they go 3A. For one thing, I think participation is going to drop. There won't be any more 80-man rosters, both because the youth numbers aren't that big and because the program loses that 4A status. Second, programs like Decorah, Solon, Pella and Heelan are pretty strong. Xavier lost to a 6-3 Cedar Rapids Washington team last year that might have struggled against any of those four. And thirdly, Xavier is potentially giving up ticket sales in 3A. While they still might get some metro opponents in non-district play, chances are they won't sell as many tickets to fans of Vinton-Shellsburg or Anamosa as they do for Prairie or Cedar Falls or Linn-Mar.
I personally feel that's it's a shame that Xavier is giving up their tradition and history of being a 4A football team. But you can't call them "cowards" for following the requirements and obligations of every other school in the state (assuming Wahlert and Assumption both move to 3A as well). If you think the state needs to change the system, that's on the state. Why single out Xavier to do something no public school in the state is being asked to do (Why isn't Valley playing against Division 3 college teams? They're big enough).
Your concerns about how dropping down will affect the perception of Xavier's football program in their marketplace (Cedar Rapids) are quite valid. Heelan walks the same tightrope after dropping down. Participation has been up & down (the number of kids usually out for football is not commensurate with the schools enrollment), but that's probably for reasons other than them going 3A. The only reason it has been a good (not great) thing for Heelan is because they have been dominant in most sports, esp football. Of the eight seasons they've played 3A football, five Heelan teams have been in the title game, with two winners. And two of the three teams that came up short of the championship game were probably a couple of unlucky circumstances away from getting into it (and likely winning it). Heelan, which hasn't had a true 4A enrollment since the early 80's, was a very good 4A program, winning it once and finishing 2nd five times in that period between 1982-2005. And they had at least two or three other teams in that time worthy of a title shot that just missed out. But if they had become just another good team in 3A, the move down would have been considered a failure. The jury is still out, but it's worked out well so far. Being able to play--and beat--the 4A public schools in SC has been a plus. I'm not aware of any reason why Xavier can't do the same with it's traditional rivals in the CR area.
In sum: if you can be in the hunt for the title every year--which you should be, just like Heelan--the move can work. Best of luck.
Xavier far superior to Heelan, period.
Heelan was above average in 4A, Xavier has been elite in 4A.
Schulte has amassed a 100-57 mark in 16 years at Xavier. Add four years at Cedar Rapids LaSalle, and he is 125-71 overall.
"You know, a couple people came up to me on the way home and congratulated me, and it's not just me," Schulte said. "It's the whole staff, and it's the players we've been able to coach. It's not a one-guy deal.
"The thing that makes this special the success we've had, it's come against Class 4A schools, at such a high level."
Only providing more reason for those that don't like the private schools to want them up. If you can come and dominate 3A like it's JV, then why not try for a challenge and play with the big boys? A trophy is a trophy?
Xaviers numbers are declining as are most private schools, it was going to happen eventually. To me this saves class 3A football from its recent scrutiny, many would say that 3A has been very average the past few years. Obviously Heelan was good this year but all those other semi final teams weren't very impressive, this move raises the bar higher for 3A now and will probably for sure stop people from saying "3A is no better then 2A" and stuff like that. Either way I think its clear the AD's are making this decision for a reason, I think this will make 3A more competitive in the long run.
So Xavier, one team....dropping to 3A will take a "very average" 56 team class back to the level it should be? That's like saying one player is a team. Maybe it's not that the other three teams in the semi's weren't that impressive....maybe its the fact that Heelen is playing down even though they know as well as anyone that they're a legitimate 4A caliber team. As far as the teams go who "weren't very impressive" the three of them came into the dome with a combined 34-2 record with the two losses being Solon's loss to Regina(who shouldn't be 1A anymore than Heelen and Xavier should be 3A) and Washington's early loss to Pella which was avenged in the qtr finals with a 28-0 shutout at Pella.
Now for "3A is no better than 2A".....say Heelen played Regina and lost(which could be a real possibility)now all of a sudden 3A is no better than 1A?
You're right though about the AD's making this decision for a reason, they're doing it to try and cherry pick a lower class the way they've seen Heelen and Regina do it and put the big hardware in their trophy case.
Nothing against you pribs as we all have our opinions and I can respect yours, it just seems to me you're defining Heelen as the "real" 3A team and the other 55 are just field fillers. Let the public school teams have more than just the hometown kids and maybe we can level out the field that way?
And yes I know the beds numbers is all it takes to make the move but until the a** clowns in Boone have been run out of the state the quality of high school football in Iowa will continue to decline for the majority of schools.
This post was edited on 12/16 10:31 PM by all4fridaynite
This post was edited on 12/16 10:57 PM by all4fridaynite
If you look at open enrollment numbers there are out of town kids on most teams. The thought of raising the quality of the class comes from setting the bar higher. I have seen teams get beat by better programs and using that to get in the weight room more, work smarter and get better. As far as cherry picking classes....well that is just a biased opinion that sounds like sour grapes.
I have said this on here many times, I am not going to complain about recruiting as it doesn't make up the vast majority of team members, but if you were to include free and reduced kids, at risk kids, and special ed kids, three groups which has a very low involvement rate in extra-curricular activities and a group that is growing in most public schools then the parochial school numbers are much higher. For example I would say that on average the percentage of students who fit into one of these categories in Iowa is 50%, much higher in city schools, much lower in suburb or commuter towns, but I would bet that the number is close. If parochial schools had these students Xavier would have an enrollment around 950-1000, Heelan and Wahlert 750-800, Assumption around 700, and just for fun Regina would be over 300.
That's a fair and reasonable point. I would not oppose some adjustment in classification that accounted for special education students, for sure, since the private schools have pretty much zero of those students.
Why are you singling out special education students? I am very offended as I teach special education and have coach football for 29 years at the HS and college levels. Any reclassification needs to involve all students or entire district, that is equality.
Not sour grapes at all but it is IMO like a D1 team moving down to1AA or D2 or an NFL team moving down to the D1 ranks.
Rocket, I don't think anyone is trying to offend any special needs kids. I think the point they were making is that the public schools have the same pool of available football players as some of the private schools, but have much larger enrollment because they serve special education students or low income students that will not participate in any high school sports.
I have heard this same argument in the state I live in...which has football multipliers for private schools.
Using common sense
To lower the enrollment numbers for a public school based on special needs students would be difficult. A coach may have football players that have IEP status. It would be an interesting formula to create, if you took the students out that do not belong to the traditional pool of possible high school football players.
I have heard this same argument in the state I live in...which has football multipliers for private schools.
Using common sense
To lower the enrollment numbers for a public school based on special needs students would be difficult. A coach may have football players that have IEP status. It would be an interesting formula to create, if you took the students out that do not belong to the traditional pool of possible high school football players.
I don't think a multiplier is necessary, I say make a rule that says a parochial school can not have a larger enrollment number than any public school in its class, except of course for 4A football, and special exemptions in 8 man for tiny parochial schools.
Multipier will not solve your perceived problem with the private schools. They will continue to win! All that will do is move a private school you don't like out of your class and there's one in the class under you that will be moving up you aren't going to like. The problem is social/economical! You have to address the problems of participation at the public schools first.
I think I didn't do a good job of explaining my point. I mean, schools are sorted in classes based on enrollment numbers. The public school enrollment numbers include special needs students and special education students, many of whom don't participate in athletics - yet they're still counted for "size" purposes. You can make the argument that private schools' enrollment numbers may be "artificially" smaller, since they don't have very many of those students, therefore their athletic participation numbers will be a much higher percentage of the student body than public schools.
Does that make more sense? I certainly apologize if I offended you. I intended no offense whatsoever.
This post was edited on 12/17 5:20 PM by KidSilverhair
Telling a school with the BEDS number for 3A that they "need" to play up a class sounds like sour grapes to me.
I would like to see your facts. Show me the actual championship results that prove private schools are "dominating" athletics in Iowa.
This year's football champions were overwhelmingly parochial schools, true ... but one year's results don't make a trend. Ankeny, Decorah, Spirit Lake, Wapsie Valley were champions in 2012 - all public schools. West Des Moines Valley, Union La Porte City, St. Ansgar, Lisbon were champions in 2011 - all public schools. Solon, West Lyon, North Tama, Armstrong-Ringstead were champions in 2010 - all public schools.
I think "domination" does not mean what you think it means.
This post was edited on 12/17 5:37 PM by KidSilverhair
Yes, this is the 1st year that there has been this level of domination, but the strength of parochial schools has been growing and growing. If you look at semi final teams from around 20 years ago, there was never more than 3 parochial schools out of the 20 semifinal teams. Over the last 5 years on average I would say there have been at least 9 or 10 out of the 24 teams. Why is it that the parochial schools have been coming on so much. I really don't know the answer, I am honestly asking the question.
I once checked teams that have made the finals. What I found was, all told, private schools were making the championship game at about a 35% clip. This is disproportionate as private schools make up about 15% of schools.
So Regina would add 50% to their BEDS when the special ed population in Iowa City....sounds fair to me.
Small, what has been found in states with multipliers is that number doesn't really change. Nobd what are you in?
I'm not that familiar with the multiplier used by some states, but if it is just a multiplication of enrollment (i.e. BEDS #) by a multiplier number like 1.5 then, using tat multiplier, it would put Assumption BEDS number at 538 which would be around the 54th largest school in the State and would keep them 3A. However, Xavier and Wahlert would be within the largest 48 schools so they would move up to 4A.
Oh please prove me wrong here CRU... Xavier has been 4A since their inception and have a state championship and 2 runner-up finishes. Schulte is something like 100-50 at Xavier vs 4A competition.
Good article on the move from 4A to 3A for the private schools.
Keith McSweeney may have had other thoughts, but he chose to keep them to himself. The Solon athletics director was the king of political correctness.
"You'll get nothing controversial out of me," he said with a laugh.
McSweeney was asked what he thought the impact would be of Cedar Rapids Xavier, Dubuque Wahlert and Davenport Assumption playing Class 3A football next season. That seeming inevitability was all but confirmed Monday afternoon.
"I just see it as another challenge," McSweeney said. "We can sit around and complain about it, or we can step up our game."
Iowa High School Athletic Association Executive Director Rick Wulkow said Wahlert has officially informed the IHSAA it will move down from Class 4A, as is its right because of enrollment. Cedar Rapids Xavier AD Mike Winker said Monday his school would only stay 4A if the Mississippi Valley Conference remained "as is."
Wahlert's declaration ended that possibility. Assumption's administration confirmed Tuesday that it, too, will drop from 4A to 3A.
Farewell to the MVC and Mississippi Athletic Conferences, hello to 4A district football on this side of the state.
"It has been a requirement for the last 22 years, six at Regis and 16 here at Xavier, that we had to play up (in football) to remain in the MVC (in all sports)," Winker said. "In the last couple of months, that requirement was dropped We don't tell our other programs they have play up."
Xavier and Assumption have two of the best 4A football programs in the state, with both qualifying regularly for the postseason. Xavier won the 4A championship in 2006 and was runner-up the past two seasons.
Now that Class 4A districts and playoff qualifiers have been determined, let's move to 3A. Reclassification will cause some changes here, but here's a rough draft on how it might look, in an effort to split up Xavier, Wahlert and Assumption (really, it wasn't that difficult).
3A District 1: Algona, LeMars, MOC-Floyd Valley, Sergeant Bluff-Luton, Sioux City Heelan, Spencer, Storm Lake.
3A District 2: Ballard, Boone, Charles City, Clear Lake, Humboldt, Waverly-Shell Rock, Webster City.
3A District 3: Crestwood, Decorah, Dubuque Wahlert, Independence, Vinton-Shellsburg, West Delaware, Western Dubuque.
3A District 4: Benton Community, Cedar Rapids Xavier, DeWitt Central, Maquoketa, Marion, Solon, Williamsburg.
3A District 5: Clear Creek Amana, Davenport Assumption, Fairfield, Fort Madison, Keokuk, Mount Pleasant, Washington.
3A District 6: Carlisle, Chariton, Grinnell, Knoxville, Newton, Oskaloosa, Pella.
3A District 7: Adel ADM, Bondurant-Farrar, Dallas Center-Grimes, Norwalk, Perry, Saydel, Winterset.
3A District 8: Atlantic, Carroll, Creston, Denison-Schleswig, Glenwood, Harlan, Lewis Central.
Non-district opponents for Xavier: Assumption, Wahlert, Cedar Rapids Kennedy.
Non-district opponents for Assumption: Xavier, two 4A MAC schools.
Non-district opponents for Wahlert: Xavier, Dubuque Senior, Dubuque Hempstead.
Again, those 3A districts are rough, based on the current BEDS Documents. Those will change slightly, moving some teams down to 2A and some other ones in. But it's a good starting point.
Dropping
Keith McSweeney may have had other thoughts, but he chose to keep them to himself. The Solon athletics director was the king of political correctness.
"You'll get nothing controversial out of me," he said with a laugh.
McSweeney was asked what he thought the impact would be of Cedar Rapids Xavier, Dubuque Wahlert and Davenport Assumption playing Class 3A football next season. That seeming inevitability was all but confirmed Monday afternoon.
"I just see it as another challenge," McSweeney said. "We can sit around and complain about it, or we can step up our game."
Iowa High School Athletic Association Executive Director Rick Wulkow said Wahlert has officially informed the IHSAA it will move down from Class 4A, as is its right because of enrollment. Cedar Rapids Xavier AD Mike Winker said Monday his school would only stay 4A if the Mississippi Valley Conference remained "as is."
Wahlert's declaration ended that possibility. Assumption's administration confirmed Tuesday that it, too, will drop from 4A to 3A.
Farewell to the MVC and Mississippi Athletic Conferences, hello to 4A district football on this side of the state.
"It has been a requirement for the last 22 years, six at Regis and 16 here at Xavier, that we had to play up (in football) to remain in the MVC (in all sports)," Winker said. "In the last couple of months, that requirement was dropped We don't tell our other programs they have play up."
Xavier and Assumption have two of the best 4A football programs in the state, with both qualifying regularly for the postseason. Xavier won the 4A championship in 2006 and was runner-up the past two seasons.
Now that Class 4A districts and playoff qualifiers have been determined, let's move to 3A. Reclassification will cause some changes here, but here's a rough draft on how it might look, in an effort to split up Xavier, Wahlert and Assumption (really, it wasn't that difficult).
3A District 1: Algona, LeMars, MOC-Floyd Valley, Sergeant Bluff-Luton, Sioux City Heelan, Spencer, Storm Lake.
3A District 2: Ballard, Boone, Charles City, Clear Lake, Humboldt, Waverly-Shell Rock, Webster City.
3A District 3: Crestwood, Decorah, Dubuque Wahlert, Independence, Vinton-Shellsburg, West Delaware, Western Dubuque.
3A District 4: Benton Community, Cedar Rapids Xavier, DeWitt Central, Maquoketa, Marion, Solon, Williamsburg.
3A District 5: Clear Creek Amana, Davenport Assumption, Fairfield, Fort Madison, Keokuk, Mount Pleasant, Washington.
3A District 6: Carlisle, Chariton, Grinnell, Knoxville, Newton, Oskaloosa, Pella.
3A District 7: Adel ADM, Bondurant-Farrar, Dallas Center-Grimes, Norwalk, Perry, Saydel, Winterset.
3A District 8: Atlantic, Carroll, Creston, Denison-Schleswig, Glenwood, Harlan, Lewis Central.
Non-district opponents for Xavier: Assumption, Wahlert, Cedar Rapids Kennedy.
Non-district opponents for Assumption: Xavier, two 4A MAC schools.
Non-district opponents for Wahlert: Xavier, Dubuque Senior, Dubuque Hempstead.
Again, those 3A districts are rough, based on the current BEDS Documents. Those will change slightly, moving some teams down to 2A and some other ones in. But it's a good starting point.
Dropping
Cidhawk,
I live in Tennessee. They have had private school multipliers for some time. The private schools have two options:
(1.) They can play in one of the two private school divisions based on their school's size
(2.) They can elect to play in their local assigned district with an enrollment multiplier determining their classification.
The biggest difference between Iowa's high school system and Tennessee (or other states for that matter) is obviously the population of the two states. Tennessee has 6.4 million people and I believe Iowa has a little over 3 million. Iowa just doesn't have enough population or large urban areas to have a lot of private high schools to create a separate division. Also, because of the state of some the public schools in some of the urban areas here, a lot of parents decided to send their kids to private high schools.
I believe there was court case in Nashville that led the state athletic association to place multipliers on the private schools in the 80s.
This post was edited on 12/18 10:51 AM by tnobd
I live in Tennessee. They have had private school multipliers for some time. The private schools have two options:
(1.) They can play in one of the two private school divisions based on their school's size
(2.) They can elect to play in their local assigned district with an enrollment multiplier determining their classification.
The biggest difference between Iowa's high school system and Tennessee (or other states for that matter) is obviously the population of the two states. Tennessee has 6.4 million people and I believe Iowa has a little over 3 million. Iowa just doesn't have enough population or large urban areas to have a lot of private high schools to create a separate division. Also, because of the state of some the public schools in some of the urban areas here, a lot of parents decided to send their kids to private high schools.
I believe there was court case in Nashville that led the state athletic association to place multipliers on the private schools in the 80s.
This post was edited on 12/18 10:51 AM by tnobd
Cidhawk,
BTW the multiplier here is 1.8...the highest enrollment multiplier used on high schools in US I believe. They tried to eliminate it in 2008, but that measure was voted down 5-3. IMO it has not had that much of an effect on private schools and championships here....the private schools continue to have some of the highest football participation rates with the best players... the only thing it creates... is no seating when they play the larger high schools at their stadiums. I keep seeing the same private schools in the quarter finals and later in the 32 team per class playoffs.
BTW the multiplier here is 1.8...the highest enrollment multiplier used on high schools in US I believe. They tried to eliminate it in 2008, but that measure was voted down 5-3. IMO it has not had that much of an effect on private schools and championships here....the private schools continue to have some of the highest football participation rates with the best players... the only thing it creates... is no seating when they play the larger high schools at their stadiums. I keep seeing the same private schools in the quarter finals and later in the 32 team per class playoffs.
Every year it seems that the same topics come out, last year it seemed like it was the only topic for a while on the girls board. There are many reasons why the private schools dominate as have been mentioned, but recruiting seems to be the scapegoat for many. If you want to use a multiplier for reasons of better schools, why penalize them for that reason, if they have a parent support system and can have a more structured setting, good for them. If you are using the multiplier argument because of the perceived "recruiting" then why don't you have a multiplier for any program that has open enrolled athletes in that sport? If your argument is boundaries, the open enrollment issue is there for all schools.
I think the athletic director from Solon quoted the best line, "I just see it as another challenge," McSweeney said. "We can sit around and complain about it, or we can step up our game."
