What do you 3A guys think about combing with 4A for football?

[Kraftwerk]

I’m from Sioux City and it is painfully obvious the MRAC outside of SBL cannot compete at the 4A level and hasn’t for over a decade. The 3A schools are pretty solid over here and could beat a good % of 4A and be competitive with some 4A’s best. I don’t know about the rest of the state, that’s why I’m asking you guys.

If you combine 3A and 4A, the games will become much more competitive and you will greatly reduce travel. I know some of you are going to mention 3A schools that have very low # of students but I believe that does not matter much at all because for example Sioux City community schools are nearly half minority in the elementary and middle school grades. Also household income is very low compared to 3A communities. What do you think about this? It would be a drastic change but maybe for the better. The other idea I’d look to next is doing a A class and a B class like the Europeans do for the champion’s league soccer, where if you’re at the top of the class you play others at the top and the lesser teams in the bottom class, with teams changing back and forth each year. Combining programs should be avoided, it will start a chain reaction and eventually lead to one football class with no individual high school being represented.

 

[stickman80]

Waukee is in the process of building another school.

Having Valley, Dowling, Urbandale, Johnston, Waukee, Ankeny, competing with (slaughtering) 3A schools is not going to be in anyones best interest.

 

[paxregis]

A better plan would be like Minnesota does, where your total enrollment is reduced by 40% of your free & reduced lunch population.

 

[KidSilverhair]

Need to create a 5A class. WDV, Waukee and a few others could easily split into 2 schools (like Ankeny) and be just fine.

Just for grins, if the top 5 schools in enrollment split in half, and there was a 16-team 5A and a 32-team 4A (as you’ve mentioned in other posts), this is what we’d have.

5A
Des Moines East
Southeast Polk
Des Moines Roosevelt
Cedar Rapids Kennedy
Waterloo West
Dubuque Hempstead
Cedar Rapids Prairie
Ankeny Centennial
Ankeny
Cedar Falls
Cedar Rapids Jefferson
Davenport West
Sioux City West
Iowa City High
Bettendorf
Dubuque Senior

4A
Davenport Central
Muscatine
WDM Valley 1
WDM Valley 2
Des Moines North
Marshalltown
Sioux City East
Iowa City West
WDM Dowling
Waukee 1
Waukee 2
Pleasant Valley
Ames
Cedar Rapids Washington
Urbandale
Council Bluffs Abraham Lincoln
Council Bluffs Thomas Jefferson
Sioux City West
Ottumwa
Davenport North
Des Moines Lincoln 1
Des Moines Lincoln 2
Fort Dodge
Indianola
Iowa City Liberty
Johnston 1
Johnston 2
Linn-Mar 1
Linn-Mar 2
Mason City
Des Moines North
Burlington

The top of 3A would be Waterloo East, just as it is now.

That looks like Centennial/Bettendorf/Cedar Falls every year in 5A, with maybe Ankeny or Southeast Polk once in a while. Dowling might never lose another 4A title.

 

[paxregis]

HOw does that match with athletics? Just because a school district has a low FRL % doesn't mean they have the numbers (or talent) to compete at a higher level.

Found a good article on your post.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/s...dan-sabers-dmps-des-moines-public/1619000001/

A plan like this would not force subpar football programs up a class, but move some city schools and some 3A/2A schools located in poor rural areas down and allow them to be more competitive. The most likely schools to replace any city schools that get moved down from 4A with a FRL factor would be North Scott, Lewis Central, Western Dubuque, Newton, Norwalk & Dallas Center-Grimes. All but Newton have solid programs that could compete in 4A, and Newton’s demographics might leave them in 3A anyway.

 

[Kraftwerk]

Waukee is in the process of building another school.

Having Valley, Dowling, Urbandale, Johnston, Waukee, Ankeny, competing with (slaughtering) 3A schools is not going to be in anyones best interest.

They are already slaughtering 4A schools arguably worse than they would against 3A schools, and they wouldn’t have to travel 6 hours round trip to do so.

 

[paednoch23]

I’m from Sioux City and it is painfully obvious the MRAC outside of SBL cannot compete at the 4A level and hasn’t for over a decade. The 3A schools are pretty solid over here and could beat a good % of 4A and be competitive with some 4A’s best. I don’t know about the rest of the state, that’s why I’m asking you guys.

If you combine 3A and 4A, the games will become much more competitive and you will greatly reduce travel. I know some of you are going to mention 3A schools that have very low # of students but I believe that does not matter much at all because for example Sioux City community schools are nearly half minority in the elementary and middle school grades. Also household income is very low compared to 3A communities. What do you think about this? It would be a drastic change but maybe for the better. The other idea I’d look to next is doing a A class and a B class like the Europeans do for the champion’s league soccer, where if you’re at the top of the class you play others at the top and the lesser teams in the bottom class, with teams changing back and forth each year. Combining programs should be avoided, it will start a chain reaction and eventually lead to one football class with no individual high school being represented.

The Answer is NO. It wouldn't be competitive anyway. Why would you want your Sioux City Schools get even more demoralized by getting blown out by a smaller school? In the DSM Metro...the surrounding 3A burbs would crush North, East, Hoover...Create an extra class and let the horrible city schools either drop football or compete in a league of their own. Dont punish 3A.

 

[Kraftwerk]

The Answer is NO. It wouldn't be competitive anyway. Why would you want your Sioux City Schools get even more demoralized by getting blown out by a smaller school? In the DSM Metro...the surrounding 3A burbs would crush North, East, Hoover...Create an extra class and let the horrible city schools either drop football or compete in a league of their own. Dont punish 3A.

The Answer is NO. It wouldn't be competitive anyway. Why would you want your Sioux City Schools get even more demoralized by getting blown out by a smaller school? In the DSM Metro...the surrounding 3A burbs would crush North, East, Hoover...Create an extra class and let the horrible city schools either drop football or compete in a league of their own. Dont punish 3A.

They wouldn’t even have to play those schools unless they were good enough to meet in the play offs. The point is to reduce travel time and increase attendance at games.

 

[stickman80]

IMO the best thing would be go 5 Classes like the girls. Seems to have worked for them. The smaller and weaker current 4A schools would remain in 4A with the larger current 3A and things should be more competitive for them. Doubt we will see that happen though due to egos and adopting something that the girls are doing.

Couple years ago Hoover softball won the 4A title in the new 5A format. Under the old 4A format this wouldn't have happened and if memory serves it had been many years since Hoover had even made it to state.

While we are at it I'd combine the boys and girls athletic unions and give the overall power (and jobs) to the existing girl executives. They have proven themselves better than the boys executives.

 

[KidSilverhair]

It's complicated. Simply going to five classes based on size won't address the overall issues. On a couple of other threads I posted what 5A and 4A might look like, if the top five schools split in two and you took the top 16 for 5A and the next 32 for 4A. Your 5A would still hold struggling programs like Sioux City West and Des Moines East, as well as non-powers Cedar Rapids Jefferson and Davenport West. Then in 4A there's still Des Moines North, Mason City, Ottumwa ... all grouped together with two split Valley programs and Dowling.

It's not just the smaller schools that are weaker, and that's why reclassification to address competitiveness is complicated.

 

[stickman80]

It's complicated. Simply going to five classes based on size won't address the overall issues. On a couple of other threads I posted what 5A and 4A might look like, if the top five schools split in two and you took the top 16 for 5A and the next 32 for 4A. Your 5A would still hold struggling programs like Sioux City West and Des Moines East, as well as non-powers Cedar Rapids Jefferson and Davenport West. Then in 4A there's still Des Moines North, Mason City, Ottumwa ... all grouped together with two split Valley programs and Dowling.

It's not just the smaller schools that are weaker, and that's why reclassification to address competitiveness is complicated.

KidSilver,

I have the upmost respect for your posts and appreciate the work you do but I saw one issue with your analysis. You were splitting some of the larger schools into 2 (example Valley) when to my knowledge some of those schools are not building another school. Are you suggesting that some of the larger schools be required by Boone to have 2 athletic programs even if they only have one school?

Had never thought about it but that could be a potential solution. Using Valley as an example again Boone could mandate them to field 2 teams instead even if they do not build another school.

Another question is that 5A appears to be working for the girls. The boys would have the same number of schools so what would be the difference?

 

[KidSilverhair]

Nope, just going with an idea from another poster, who linked the 5-class idea to splitting some of the bigger schools. So that's where that came from.

Even with the status quo, though, you still have the issues of some large enrollment schools struggling on the field. In the top 18 in the latest BEDS you have Des Moines Lincoln (with the third biggest enrollment in the state), Des Moines East, Davenport West, and Sioux City North, who are a combined 6-18 this year. While it's true the bottom three teams of 4A size-wise (Burlington, DM Hoover, Mason City) are only 2-16, the next three above them (Indianola, Fort Dodge, Davenport North) are 12-6.

I honestly don't have an answer. Would a 5-class system work for the boys as well as is has for the girls? It very well might, I'm just not sure it would make much difference in football. You still have very large schools who struggle on the field, so just rearranging where the dividing lines are doesn't do very much about that.

I do know the IHSAA has set up a committee to look into reclassification, and consider a lot of factors that could go into that. So people are talking about it, and that's a good thing.

 

[KidSilverhair]

I know this idea has been mentioned before, but I do wonder if something like soccer relegation could one element the state might use (I don't think they're seriously considering this, but it's fun to talk about). Whether it's over a two-year cycle or longer, swap the bottom-performing four or five teams in each class with the top ones in the class below. Now that there's RPI, you could even use that as a measurement.

For fun, if you look at last year's RPI, the bottom four in 4A were Des Moines North, Des Moines Hoover, Mason City, and Sioux City North. Imagine them playing 3A this year, with Sergeant Bluff-Luton, Lewis Central, Xavier, and Solon playing in 4A. (Considering Solon's BEDS numbers almost put them in 2A now, that would be interesting.)

Of course there are drawbacks to that, and as I said I don't think there's any serious consideration of this going on at all. (For one thing, take Solon with their BEDS of 350, which is less than half of the smallest 4A programs. Once they move up to 4A, they'd stay there for a while, getting ground up by bigger 4A teams but not falling enough in RPI to actually get back into 3A - I don't think the 3A-sized schools would be gung-ho with that idea.) And, of course, it's not a golden ticket - former 4A programs Waterloo East and Clinton, the two biggest schools in 3A (except for Iowa City Liberty, which is a special case) have been just as terrible in 3A as they were in 4A.

 

[StatewidePundit]

Private schools play up. The rest decided by free and reduced. The goal is to make the game competitive. DM area games are a joke unless suburban teams meet. Time for a change and change now.

 

[paednoch23]

Private schools play up. The rest decided by free and reduced. The goal is to make the game competitive. DM area games are a joke unless suburban teams meet. Time for a change and change now.

Yup kick the poor schools to 3A so they can be further humiliated by getting smoked by schools a fraction of their size. They would have to go to 2A to be competitive. Heck even some 8 man teams would beat DSM north playing 8 vs 11.

 

[paednoch23]

I know this idea has been mentioned before, but I do wonder if something like soccer relegation could one element the state might use (I don't think they're seriously considering this, but it's fun to talk about). Whether it's over a two-year cycle or longer, swap the bottom-performing four or five teams in each class with the top ones in the class below. Now that there's RPI, you could even use that as a measurement.

For fun, if you look at last year's RPI, the bottom four in 4A were Des Moines North, Des Moines Hoover, Mason City, and Sioux City North. Imagine them playing 3A this year, with Sergeant Bluff-Luton, Lewis Central, Xavier, and Solon playing in 4A. (Considering Solon's BEDS numbers almost put them in 2A now, that would be interesting.)

Of course there are drawbacks to that, and as I said I don't think there's any serious consideration of this going on at all. (For one thing, take Solon with their BEDS of 350, which is less than half of the smallest 4A programs. Once they move up to 4A, they'd stay there for a while, getting ground up by bigger 4A teams but not falling enough in RPI to actually get back into 3A - I don't think the 3A-sized schools would be gung-ho with that idea.) And, of course, it's not a golden ticket - former 4A programs Waterloo East and Clinton, the two biggest schools in 3A (except for Iowa City Liberty, which is a special case) have been just as terrible in 3A as they were in 4A.

Wtlo E example is what most of the proponents of this idea dont get. They think 3A would be a big drop off. Lincoln/east/hoover/north would get humiliated by the likes of DCG/Norwalk/Carlisle/Pella.

 

[paednoch23]

What is your proposal then?

I propose we base the classification of a school on the size of the student body. It works very well for those of us in 3A. We dont want our districts and schedules tinkered with because the larger cities have horrible administrative leadership which results in downtrodden high schools. Some smaller districts share sports such as swimming. Give that a try before you mess with 3A.

 

[Notfromiowa]

Where I live we don't considered K-6 as enrollment for school in athletic. We do considered 7-12 enrollment as part of making the classification. It's a lot easier and we haven't had any one complain yet. I'm just saying.

 

[paednoch23]

Where I live we don't considered K-6 as enrollment for school in athletic. We do considered 7-12 enrollment as part of making the classification. It's a lot easier and we haven't had any one complain yet. I'm just saying.

I think its 9-12 here but dont quite me. But some of the city public schools are struggling in Foorball. For some reason the "everyone gets a trophy' idea is thought to fix the problem.

 

[Hawksince73]

Iowa used 9-11 for classification. Just to answer the why not use 8-12 so theres 4 years of student body trends: Not every 8th grade student at Middle School A will go to High School A. Once a kid gets into high school, he tends to stay in that particular school so the year to year numbers are more stable.

 

[Kraftwerk]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/siouxc...dc7f716e-0b0f-5c8f-b80e-988f90793107.amp.html

 

[paednoch23]

The origianal poster's question mentioned football only. Football only. If that is the case do kids somehow get off free reduced lunch during the other sports seasons. Or is this simply about the schools themselves not investing enough in football? It seems like we have some sort of request for Athletic Welfare going on her.e

 

[paxregis]

5A is the top 30 schools for now:
WDV down to Ames (2200 - 1026). I expect that Waukee is going to break into two schools eventually.

4A CR Wash down to Boone (989 -471) 32 teams
3A Carlisle down to ELC (469-293) 48 teams
2A Green County down to South Hardin (291-196) 52 teams
1A....
A....
8man or make them combine

Can always have teams opt to play up (some privates may want to (Pell Christian for example) and if a team is historically bad, maybe petition to drop a class. Just thoughts.

Waukee Northwest High Schools opens fall of 2021

 

[ronsss]

Waukee Northwest High Schools opens fall of 2021

so what is the 2 names for waukee high schools? ..waukee and wakee northwest?

 

[screwloose]

I laugh when people on these boards say, "They need to go to a five class system in football". They already have five classes. Let's count...
1. 4A
2. 3A
3. 2A
4. 1A
5. A

 

[ISUChip]

I find it interesting that South Dakota uses just male enrollment figures to determine football classification, and divides the classes based on max/min enrollment and not number of teams per class.

 

[Football is love]

Yeah but South Dakota also give schools the option to drop down a class or go up a class depending on how close they are to the enrollment line.

 

[Cyclone1968]

I laugh when people on these boards say, "They need to go to a five class system in football". They already have five classes. Let's count...
1. 4A
2. 3A
3. 2A
4. 1A
5. A

We really have 6 classes if you include 8 man.

 

[screwloose]

Right.

 

[Cyclone1968]

I find it interesting that South Dakota uses just male enrollment figures to determine football classification, and divides the classes based on max/min enrollment and not number of teams per class.

This is an interesting idea. My sons class was 75 percent male. But in reality it will only effect the schools that are on the line between classes. Might put Solon back in 2A some cycles.

 

[screwloose]

You do realize that folks are saying to add a "5A" classification, not "we should have a 5 class system"... right

IMO the best thing would be go 5 Classes like the girls. Seems to have worked for them.

Simply going to five classes based on size won't address the overall issues.

Would a 5-class system work for the boys as well as is has for the girls?

Are they saying that? There's three posts in this thread alone. I've been around this block a long time and just because YOU made a statement like this(adding a 5A), most of the time they are exactly like these three quotes.

 

[KidSilverhair]

Yeah, but you know I can’t count.

 

[paednoch23]

If we are simply going to cook the books so losing programs can have a participant trophy. Why don't we consider changing the scoring in FB. If a school has a high percentage of free or reduced lunches they should get 20 points for a touchdown and 3 points for a defensive stop. Keep them in the same class just pad their deficiencies. If you are going to fabricate success you might as well go all out!

 

[Kraftwerk]

If we are simply going to cook the books so losing programs can have a participant trophy. Why don't we consider changing the scoring in FB. If a school has a high percentage of free or reduced lunches they should get 20 points for a touchdown and 3 points for a defensive stop. Keep them in the same class just pad their deficiencies. If you are going to fabricate success you might as well go all out!

The origianal poster's question mentioned football only. Football only. If that is the case do kids somehow get off free reduced lunch during the other sports seasons. Or is this simply about the schools themselves not investing enough in football? It seems like we have some sort of request for Athletic Welfare going on her.e

It’s not that the schools arent investing in football, or even that much the parents. Demographics are a big part of this issue especially in SC. The entire school system is majority minority. It happened really fast too. The entire state of Iowa in the last 10-15 years (the article I posted mentions it) has seen 20% increase in students receiving free lunches. This isn’t about only a few schools who are upset they can’t win more. Not about a participation trophy either. it’s about the game of football and keeping it around in communities before it’s too late. Football may eventually disappear one day but we should preserve it as best we can

 

[Kraftwerk]

Curious if SC schools could compete better with South Dakota, NE Nebraska, SW Minny?

Good question, I don’t know how the Sioux Falls high schools would fare against Iowa 4A. Sioux Falls is about twice as big and much wealthier than Sioux City. Sioux City and Sioux Falls schools use to be in the same conference until Wyoming’s HSAA disallowed playing outside of state. This made it so Rapid City high schools had nobody to play except the Sioux Falls schools. Thus the end of what was a really solid conference with good competition. Would be even more so now as SF has grown very large. There’s 3 public HS in SF along with a catholic school. Yankton, SD I believe is in the same class as well as a few suburban high schools in SF. Omaha I’m not sure but there are some really good football teams down there, they don’t even play the Council Bluffs schools. Not sure there’s anything in SW Minnesota 4A size

 

[Kraftwerk]

NE Nebraska has nothing..not even 3A size. There’s not much there in terms of population. South Sioux City, NE is in the same boat as the rest of Sioux City. Horrible. That community has a huge immigrant population. Gotta think it’s about 60-70% Hispanic

 

[paxregis]

Good question, I don’t know how the Sioux Falls high schools would fare against Iowa 4A. Sioux Falls is about twice as big and much wealthier than Sioux City. Sioux City and Sioux Falls schools use to be in the same conference until Wyoming’s HSAA disallowed playing outside of state. This made it so Rapid City high schools had nobody to play except the Sioux Falls schools. Thus the end of what was a really solid conference with good competition. Would be even more so now as SF has grown very large. There’s 3 public HS in SF along with a catholic school. Yankton, SD I believe is in the same class as well as a few suburban high schools in SF. Omaha I’m not sure but there are some really good football teams down there, they don’t even play the Council Bluffs schools. Not sure there’s anything in SW Minnesota 4A size

Sioux Falls teams dominate big school football in South Dakota, for what it’s worth. As the metro area has exploded, with a fourth SF high school two years away, out-state schools have stood little chance. The last big school title for a non-Sioux Empire school was 2003 (Spearfish) and 2009’s Aberdeen Central was the last championship game appearance by an out-state team. They even split their big school division in two in 2013 to give the smaller schools a fighting chance at a state title.