Nebraska high school strength and conditioning clinic posted on every forum but this one. Was it an error? Is 8 man not lucrative enough to them to pursue? Or is this another instance of 8 man football not being perceived as real football? Have you ever been dismissed as a relevant contributor of football conversation once it's discovered your affiliated with the 8 man game? I'm curious to know what others think or have experienced on this subject.
The insinuation that 8 man football is not real football
- Thread starter Lenmaster
- Start date
Some people are just ignorant. If people can define real football they would say blocking, tackling, throwing, catching, running, punting and kicking are the basic skills/aspects involved in the game. I believe those aspects are found in every class/level of football. 6, 8, 9, 11 and 12 man (Canadian) football. 8 man fits the definition like every other class/level.
If they can't admit to the accuracy of that statement, they are ignorant and don't want to be wrong even though they know they are. I honestly can't see how anyone can argue the above reasoning. Would love to hear someone who can though. Any takers?
If they can't admit to the accuracy of that statement, they are ignorant and don't want to be wrong even though they know they are. I honestly can't see how anyone can argue the above reasoning. Would love to hear someone who can though. Any takers?
While I have never heard anyone say 8-man is not real football, I have heard many say that 8-man football is not very good.
What I perceive them to be saying is that if 8-man teams had to play 11 man they would not be successful, even the best 8 man teams.
Not saying I agree with their thoughts, just adding to the thread.
What I perceive them to be saying is that if 8-man teams had to play 11 man they would not be successful, even the best 8 man teams.
Not saying I agree with their thoughts, just adding to the thread.
http://qctimes.com/sports/high-scho...cle_86ae5f72-7132-5b18-9705-07f229d3647d.html
It's articles like this one along with others that inspired this post. I also believe that 8 man is actually a harder game to play than 11 because it's ironman football for one and very unforgiving defensively for two, because the field is so large. The reason 8 man seems inferior is that schools play 8 man because of participation number issues so the up side is, many kids get to play that otherwise would not have because it's all you have to choose from. Because of this the result is that the bad teams are really bad skewing peoples perception of really good teams. The question would not be, if an 8 man team could play 11 man ball because again this assumes 11 man is superior, but I wonder how well a good 11 man team would do playing a good 8 man team on an 8 man field? I've also seen 8 man teams play 11 man teams at the JV and Jr. High level so they could get enough games in and more often than not the 8 man teams playing 11 man were quite competitive.
It's articles like this one along with others that inspired this post. I also believe that 8 man is actually a harder game to play than 11 because it's ironman football for one and very unforgiving defensively for two, because the field is so large. The reason 8 man seems inferior is that schools play 8 man because of participation number issues so the up side is, many kids get to play that otherwise would not have because it's all you have to choose from. Because of this the result is that the bad teams are really bad skewing peoples perception of really good teams. The question would not be, if an 8 man team could play 11 man ball because again this assumes 11 man is superior, but I wonder how well a good 11 man team would do playing a good 8 man team on an 8 man field? I've also seen 8 man teams play 11 man teams at the JV and Jr. High level so they could get enough games in and more often than not the 8 man teams playing 11 man were quite competitive.
While I have tried to stay out of any kind of argument either way, a good 11 man team would typically have more athletes than a good 8 man team.
Therefore one would have to lean toward the 11 man team being a superior squad (given some time to learn the game) Obviously with there being a few exceptions. Most A, 1A and even 2A have majority of kids playing on both sides of ball and some special teams.
Also with the field being smaller for 8 man I'm not sure what you are getting at with that point.
Therefore one would have to lean toward the 11 man team being a superior squad (given some time to learn the game) Obviously with there being a few exceptions. Most A, 1A and even 2A have majority of kids playing on both sides of ball and some special teams.
Also with the field being smaller for 8 man I'm not sure what you are getting at with that point.
Please know this is not an argument. Discussions like this help me learn and give me better perspective. I do not wish this to be anything other than informative. Let me give you my thoughts on the differences as they pertain to the field itself. This will help you better understand my thinking and in turn you feed back will most likely teach me something.
8 and 11 man offensive execution is very similar and without enough differences to be a factor between the two games. It is, in my opinion, all about the defenses. Based on that thinking, logic would dictate that it is all about the square feet of responsibility per defensive player on the field.
The 8 man field is 120 feet wide while the 11 man field is 160 feet wide. Length is actually not a factor. In other words if you are on your own 35 yard line in 8 man you are also on your own 35 yard line in 11 man as well. All the yards that exist behind the offense are inconsequential to you as a defensive player and are not factored in.
Now to drill down even further, once you line up on an opponent you are, in effect, only working with an area that is the width of the field times 15 yards in depth (45 feet). The logic behind this is that if you line up more than 15 yards deep on any offensive formation you automatically are giving up yards to your opponent. A depth of more than 15 yards would only be proper in punt return and prevent defense situations.
So now that we have established actual playing area for defenses on the field lets do the math for each and compare the results. All dimensions are displayed in feet rather than yards since an 11 man field width doesn’t break down evenly in using yards. (the field is 53.333 yards wide)
11 man field
160 ft. wide x 45 feet of operational concern for the Defense = 7,200 square feet.
7,200 square feet divided by 11 gives each player 655 (rounded up) square feet of area to cover.
That equates to 218 square yards per player.
8 man field
120 ft. wide x 45 feet of operational concern for the Defense = 5,400 square feet.
5,400 square feet divided by 8 gives each player 675 square feet of area to cover.
That equates to 225 square yards per player.
As a result, for each player that is out of position in relationship to the offensive formation in the 8 man game it handicaps his team by an addition 13% as compared to that same player being out of position in the 11 man version.
In 8 man, the defense being 3 players short in general is far more detrimental than being 3 players short on offense. On defense you eliminate one Defensive lineman and both corner backs. You generally go with a 3 and sometimes 4 man front with the outside linebackers pulling double duty of pass coverage and run stopper. As a result their margin for error is increased and in my opinion they are responsible for the entire additional 20 square foot discrepancy all by themselves.
In the 11 man game you can hide your weakest link in the 8 man game, your weakest link is out there for the whole world to see.
This is why I think a decent 11 man team would not by default dominate a decent 8 man team on an 8 man field.
What are your thoughts?
8 and 11 man offensive execution is very similar and without enough differences to be a factor between the two games. It is, in my opinion, all about the defenses. Based on that thinking, logic would dictate that it is all about the square feet of responsibility per defensive player on the field.
The 8 man field is 120 feet wide while the 11 man field is 160 feet wide. Length is actually not a factor. In other words if you are on your own 35 yard line in 8 man you are also on your own 35 yard line in 11 man as well. All the yards that exist behind the offense are inconsequential to you as a defensive player and are not factored in.
Now to drill down even further, once you line up on an opponent you are, in effect, only working with an area that is the width of the field times 15 yards in depth (45 feet). The logic behind this is that if you line up more than 15 yards deep on any offensive formation you automatically are giving up yards to your opponent. A depth of more than 15 yards would only be proper in punt return and prevent defense situations.
So now that we have established actual playing area for defenses on the field lets do the math for each and compare the results. All dimensions are displayed in feet rather than yards since an 11 man field width doesn’t break down evenly in using yards. (the field is 53.333 yards wide)
11 man field
160 ft. wide x 45 feet of operational concern for the Defense = 7,200 square feet.
7,200 square feet divided by 11 gives each player 655 (rounded up) square feet of area to cover.
That equates to 218 square yards per player.
8 man field
120 ft. wide x 45 feet of operational concern for the Defense = 5,400 square feet.
5,400 square feet divided by 8 gives each player 675 square feet of area to cover.
That equates to 225 square yards per player.
As a result, for each player that is out of position in relationship to the offensive formation in the 8 man game it handicaps his team by an addition 13% as compared to that same player being out of position in the 11 man version.
In 8 man, the defense being 3 players short in general is far more detrimental than being 3 players short on offense. On defense you eliminate one Defensive lineman and both corner backs. You generally go with a 3 and sometimes 4 man front with the outside linebackers pulling double duty of pass coverage and run stopper. As a result their margin for error is increased and in my opinion they are responsible for the entire additional 20 square foot discrepancy all by themselves.
In the 11 man game you can hide your weakest link in the 8 man game, your weakest link is out there for the whole world to see.
This is why I think a decent 11 man team would not by default dominate a decent 8 man team on an 8 man field.
What are your thoughts?
Well I sure won't argue math facts with you.
My rebuttal would be, I think we can both agree the more kids out the more good athletes available. Meaning typically more speed. More speed covers more ground, allowing for mistakes to be covered up.
I started to look back at teams who had great success once they switched to 8 man. MMC being a good example, very average 11 man, but were dominant when they started 8 man. But there could have been many other factors.
How many 8 man teams move up next year? How many 11 man move down. Might be interesting to track success. But again many other variables to look at.
My rebuttal would be, I think we can both agree the more kids out the more good athletes available. Meaning typically more speed. More speed covers more ground, allowing for mistakes to be covered up.
I started to look back at teams who had great success once they switched to 8 man. MMC being a good example, very average 11 man, but were dominant when they started 8 man. But there could have been many other factors.
How many 8 man teams move up next year? How many 11 man move down. Might be interesting to track success. But again many other variables to look at.
Don Bosco is another example of a team that has moved down and immediately been a success when they didn't have much before in 11-man. However, they were pretty successful their final year, and they got a new coach if I'm not mistaken around that same time. So the new coach might be just as responsible for their recent success as the switch to 8-man.
Most of the teams that have success are teams with larger BEDS numbers also...the teams with <75 kids don't really stand much of a chance. Bosco (84 now) and MMC (142 now with RU joined) both had BEDS numbers near the upper end, along with Newell-Fonda (112), Fremont-Mills (103), Turkey Valley (94).Exira (93), and Glidden (77).
Obviously, size isn't the only important factor either, as River Valley (93) and Dunkerton (108) prove that numbers don't equal wins.
Most of the teams that have success are teams with larger BEDS numbers also...the teams with <75 kids don't really stand much of a chance. Bosco (84 now) and MMC (142 now with RU joined) both had BEDS numbers near the upper end, along with Newell-Fonda (112), Fremont-Mills (103), Turkey Valley (94).Exira (93), and Glidden (77).
Obviously, size isn't the only important factor either, as River Valley (93) and Dunkerton (108) prove that numbers don't equal wins.
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