Start of Cross Country Competition
- Thread starter mfp mmiv
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Thats a diffiicult question to quantify. Very dependent on class (1A-4A), course differences, weather, etc.. On a track you can compare - XC is difficult. For the lower classes I always believed you need to be under 20 minutes to run varsity and low 19's to be a scorer. Unfortunately many programs today struggle to find 5 runners. I recall one team last year that had 5 runners and none could break 21. They were all getting the benefit of a sport that gives lifelong benefits and habits which was great. Most meets the time is not important - running smart and for position is important. Winning the first two miles does not give any extra points.
Also, what does first year mean? You could be a first-year senior ex-fball and be a stud. You could be a frosh who has never ran before as well. As a coach, I try and gauge where someone is at during the first couple of weeks of practice, see who they run with as far as returning runners, then give them a first meet goal.
I agree with mfp. There are a lot of variables starting with your question of 1st year...9-10-11-12? really makes a difference in physical maturity and what a young person can do aged 14-18. Size of school can make a difference but I think that has more to do with percentages of athleticism available. I'm guessing the better athletes at smaller schools are probably playing football but not necessarily true in all cases. I think it would depend on the success of the programs and how the coaches have developed their culture in their community. Some small schools have a long tradition in either sport for a good reason.
In the larger schools, there are opportunities to develop strong programs because there are a ton of kids available but again, it really depends on the coach. Therefore, some good athletes that may play football in a small school might make very good runners in larger schools. There's a lot more room for athletes to participate in cross country than varsity football in the larger schools as well due to the level of competitiveness for a playing position on the fb team. The kids' personality and influence of friends probably has more to do with whether they play one sport or another.
Even in a large school, if a freshman can come in and break 20 minutes in their first meet they would be doing average to a little better. Freshman breaking 17 minutes by the end of the season is pretty special but it does happen. Breaking 18 would be pretty good, better than average. Breaking 19 would be middle of the road. A good/progressive summer program for incoming freshman can be helpful in getting them ready to start the season but it can get to be really long by October if you aren't careful to not overtrain them. It also helps prevent those overuse injuries that occur in week 2 & 3 if they haven't done any consistent summer running. Those not training are just not going to improve or have much fun.
In the larger schools, there are opportunities to develop strong programs because there are a ton of kids available but again, it really depends on the coach. Therefore, some good athletes that may play football in a small school might make very good runners in larger schools. There's a lot more room for athletes to participate in cross country than varsity football in the larger schools as well due to the level of competitiveness for a playing position on the fb team. The kids' personality and influence of friends probably has more to do with whether they play one sport or another.
Even in a large school, if a freshman can come in and break 20 minutes in their first meet they would be doing average to a little better. Freshman breaking 17 minutes by the end of the season is pretty special but it does happen. Breaking 18 would be pretty good, better than average. Breaking 19 would be middle of the road. A good/progressive summer program for incoming freshman can be helpful in getting them ready to start the season but it can get to be really long by October if you aren't careful to not overtrain them. It also helps prevent those overuse injuries that occur in week 2 & 3 if they haven't done any consistent summer running. Those not training are just not going to improve or have much fun.
Sorry - expansion on my first question.
First year Juniorthat has run some 5k's this summer in the low 19's to high 18's. Class 3A
This post was edited on 8/23 8:00 AM by meandmyshadow
First year Juniorthat has run some 5k's this summer in the low 19's to high 18's. Class 3A
This post was edited on 8/23 8:00 AM by meandmyshadow
If this is his first year and he started running in the summer and hit those times, not knowing the kid, I would say he had a shot at breaking 17:30 by the end of the season if he stays healthy and his training progression is directed toward that. In addition, it's great to train by the watch but there is a learning process in racing as well vs. just running the 5k. He'll learn a lot about himself this year and can expect to drop another minute by the end of his senior year if he sticks with it. I don't like to put numbers on performance predictions because they are a form of limitation but you still have to have stepping stone goals to find out what is possible. Good runners come from all sized schools. The depth of quality increases with class size though.
This post was edited on 8/23 10:40 PM by On Wings of Eagles
This post was edited on 8/23 10:40 PM by On Wings of Eagles
Thanks - his goal is to get low 17's by the end of the season and I believe he can do it. So far, he loves XC.
I was a runner in HS (not XC but 1 and 2 mile in track) and have ran pretty consistently since (and its been years...).
I was a runner in HS (not XC but 1 and 2 mile in track) and have ran pretty consistently since (and its been years...).
Just the fact he was willing to pay the summer dues is a very positive step. With his summer times and a mix of anerobic and aerobic training you will see improvement. We usually get the one that shows up first day of school with no summer work and with a 25+ minute 5K PR, running because his girlfriend is on girls team.
Okay so he is 5 runs into the season and has dropped his time by just over 2 minutes (1st meet was 19:53 and last meet was 17:47). Should I expect a plateau soon or will he keep dropping the time? I think he has a lot left in him as he isn't dry heaving on his knees when finished....
That's awesome!!! It sounds like his goal of low 17's by the end of the season is attainable.
Just some thoughts:
Look at your schedule starting at the district meet and work back to today. Figure that you are probably going to have easier workouts the day before the meets. Hopefully, you don't have more than one per week from here on in. Fewer would be even better. Pick which days you could actually get some of the more challenging workouts in. It's too early to taper yet but you should be starting the process of working on end of season goal pace in some of your tougher workouts to allow time for adaptation. Two weeks from districts you should probably start backing off of the volume a little but crank up the pace with more recovery in your workouts. You have to do some training sessions faster than goal 5k pace. Start training him like a miler in some of your workouts.
I would suggest you plan long intervals, easy runs, repition/speed work, etc... in such a way to allow for recoveries that will add up to continued improvements in race day effort. Course rigor will determine whether a fast time can be achieved or not so focus on racing athletes rather than running goal times. Most kids that are competitive are in good shape by this time of the season.
By your conference meet you are going to want to have already looked at the competition and know where you want to place based on who has been doing what recently. Top 10? Top 5? Maybe even running with the leaders and letting the chips fall where they may? I don't know your athlete or your compeititon but setting goals based on place are a good way to focus on effort vs. worrying about running a time. Those tend to take care of themselves if you have been progressing the workouts. You already know what is possible by where he is with his training. If you can train your athletes by the watch and teach them to compete on race day, you have your best chance at a great performances during the championship season.
This is the most exciting time for coaches. Your athlete was willing to do the necessary work prior to the season starting. You have had success and showed great improvement in your first few races. Now is the time for meticulous planning but also using your ears and eyes in the art of coaching. Know when is enough, err on the side of caution to prevent injury or fatigue and overtraining your athletes. With experience, you will know how far to push your kids and allow the proper recoveries that will give them a chance to compete well. Get them involved in the decision making process and ask questions that will allow them to process their feedback so they have some ownership too. Don't look too far down the road yet, there's still a lot of work to be done. Yes, a plateau could occur but that's not always a bad thing if you are still in a heavy training load. With rest at the right time, the adaptation could be tremendous.
Promote good healthy habits. Sleep, Eat, Wash Hands Frequently, Don't Think About Running Too Much Outside of Practice etc...
Focusing on racing also will take the edge off of the changes in the weather that are going to start to occur. Kids that don't do any summer training have the hardest time with this. They are just starting to get into some kind of shape and when October comes, they get squirrely when the air starts to get crisp. However, you do get to regain your sanity after the conference meet when their season is over if you have a focused varsity squad.
Anyway, best of luck and no matter what happens, this could turn out to be a great learning experience that will really benefit your athlete for his senior season. A take-off point if you will.
Just some thoughts:
Look at your schedule starting at the district meet and work back to today. Figure that you are probably going to have easier workouts the day before the meets. Hopefully, you don't have more than one per week from here on in. Fewer would be even better. Pick which days you could actually get some of the more challenging workouts in. It's too early to taper yet but you should be starting the process of working on end of season goal pace in some of your tougher workouts to allow time for adaptation. Two weeks from districts you should probably start backing off of the volume a little but crank up the pace with more recovery in your workouts. You have to do some training sessions faster than goal 5k pace. Start training him like a miler in some of your workouts.
I would suggest you plan long intervals, easy runs, repition/speed work, etc... in such a way to allow for recoveries that will add up to continued improvements in race day effort. Course rigor will determine whether a fast time can be achieved or not so focus on racing athletes rather than running goal times. Most kids that are competitive are in good shape by this time of the season.
By your conference meet you are going to want to have already looked at the competition and know where you want to place based on who has been doing what recently. Top 10? Top 5? Maybe even running with the leaders and letting the chips fall where they may? I don't know your athlete or your compeititon but setting goals based on place are a good way to focus on effort vs. worrying about running a time. Those tend to take care of themselves if you have been progressing the workouts. You already know what is possible by where he is with his training. If you can train your athletes by the watch and teach them to compete on race day, you have your best chance at a great performances during the championship season.
This is the most exciting time for coaches. Your athlete was willing to do the necessary work prior to the season starting. You have had success and showed great improvement in your first few races. Now is the time for meticulous planning but also using your ears and eyes in the art of coaching. Know when is enough, err on the side of caution to prevent injury or fatigue and overtraining your athletes. With experience, you will know how far to push your kids and allow the proper recoveries that will give them a chance to compete well. Get them involved in the decision making process and ask questions that will allow them to process their feedback so they have some ownership too. Don't look too far down the road yet, there's still a lot of work to be done. Yes, a plateau could occur but that's not always a bad thing if you are still in a heavy training load. With rest at the right time, the adaptation could be tremendous.
Promote good healthy habits. Sleep, Eat, Wash Hands Frequently, Don't Think About Running Too Much Outside of Practice etc...
Focusing on racing also will take the edge off of the changes in the weather that are going to start to occur. Kids that don't do any summer training have the hardest time with this. They are just starting to get into some kind of shape and when October comes, they get squirrely when the air starts to get crisp. However, you do get to regain your sanity after the conference meet when their season is over if you have a focused varsity squad.
Anyway, best of luck and no matter what happens, this could turn out to be a great learning experience that will really benefit your athlete for his senior season. A take-off point if you will.
Appreciate the feedback! the schedule calls for one a week the rest of the way out, the WaMac meet will be tough with Mt.Vernon\Lisbon, Waterloo Columbus, leading the way.
From the races I have seen low 17's would be placing in the top 10. He absolutely loves it so I cannot ask for anything more.
From the races I have seen low 17's would be placing in the top 10. He absolutely loves it so I cannot ask for anything more.
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