Regina VS Xavier...could the real winner be public schools?

[cidhawkeye]

You are cracking me up. Yes every kid in a private school is OE because there are no boundaries, just like for the majority of public schools the only boundary they have to deal with is distance. There are very few schools that can deny OE based on a full school. Iowa City West was in that situation for a bit and yet a couple of wrestlers and a baseball player seemed to make it in their school, Norwalk was able to deny based on a full school, with declining enrollment the only issue is if the OE paperwork isn't submitted on time. You want a multiplier? Great, go for it, while you are at it close OE you know to keep it fair, some of the most vocal supporters of the multiplier might step back and re think their position on the subject, you know after looking at the amount of OE kids they have had join their program. There are certain posters that even say they don't accept OE and those kids don't count as OE because they started elementary school in that district, guess what, if you live in another school district and go to school in another you still fill out the OE paperwork every year. I have done both, OE for my kids and private school for them so I understand the process a bit.

The school moving may not beat those teams that bad, and how can you guarantee that it will be a bottom feeder that gets dropped down? was Regina a bottom feeder when their enrollment dropped them down? How do you think class A is liking Maq. Valley dropping down? do you want to pick the team that drops down so it can be more 'fair'? It doesn't always work that way.

 

[Vroom_C14]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
You are cracking me up. Yes every kid in a private school is OE because there are no boundaries, just like for the majority of public schools the only boundary they have to deal with is distance. There are very few schools that can deny OE based on a full school. Iowa City West was in that situation for a bit and yet a couple of wrestlers and a baseball player seemed to make it in their school, Norwalk was able to deny based on a full school, with declining enrollment the only issue is if the OE paperwork isn't submitted on time. You want a multiplier? Great, go for it, while you are at it close OE you know to keep it fair, some of the most vocal supporters of the multiplier might step back and re think their position on the subject, you know after looking at the amount of OE kids they have had join their program. There are certain posters that even say they don't accept OE and those kids don't count as OE because they started elementary school in that district, guess what, if you live in another school district and go to school in another you still fill out the OE paperwork every year. I have done both, OE for my kids and private school for them so I understand the process a bit.

The school moving may not beat those teams that bad, and how can you guarantee that it will be a bottom feeder that gets dropped down? was Regina a bottom feeder when their enrollment dropped them down? How do you think class A is liking Maq. Valley dropping down? do you want to pick the team that drops down so it can be more 'fair'? It doesn't always work that way.

THat would be where the state steps in and mandates that if a school is dropping their winning percentage is "X" or some other variable. THere ARE ways to make the games competitive. YOu can pick and choose schools all day long - look at Newton, they dropped to 3A and they are just now getting a +500 winning percentage, dub wahlert dropped and are barely competing. BHRV bounced between 2A\3A, etc, etc - picking schools to fit in one side of the equation is easy.

I know you just want to hammer the OE statement around all day - but are we going to go with the mantra of "well they did it" or should we put on our big boy pants and say "let's find a way"?

I am not asking for a multiplier, I have stated be careful what you ask for - if you want to play 4A schools then you run the risk of the state (and all the squeaky wheels) having ammunition to implement a multiplier.

 

[cidhawkeye]

So asking to play an in city 4A opponent could lead to a multiplier? If anybody could see why those games makes sense it would be the boy$ in Boone. The boo$ters would love that game. I know when they play in baseball... Wait, what was that? They play every year in baseball? And no multiplier is in place? Even though they split this year? Oh yeah the gates for those game$ are just a touch better than traveling to Bellvue. On a side note I will bang the drum of OE, because it may be one of the more hypocritical situations out there.

 

[CP84]

Originally posted by DarkThunder#61:

Originally posted by PNation:


I am not saying that all parents at public schools are bad, many aren't, my parents did a good job. But public schools also have to deal with parents who shouldn't have had kids.

And while that's a fair opinion, that absolutely does not mean private schools should separate, have a multiplier, or play up a class. (And that's not just for you)

But it is relevant to the issue. We've seen plenty of evidence to suggest schools in wealthier communities tend to have more sustained success than those from the poor. Dowling and Valley tend to have good programs while poorer schools like East and Hoover typically don't have similar trends.

My opposition to hitting private schools with a multiplier is it is unfairly penalizing a school based on that status when public schools themselves have similar inequities. Des Moines East will never have the same tax base that Valley does so you could argue the same standard in the public vs public case. I'm opposed to a multiplier but not biased enough to deny that the income levels of the students households can be a relevant factor in determining athletic success.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Should the state step in and mandate that Valley split into two schools? It only seems fair? Should we bus some poor kids into Solon? It only seems fair.

 

[rkhemp]

CID, please provide me a link with all these states that have dropped the multiplier and have nothing dividing their classes but by the number of students in their classrooms.

Also, if you want the members of the association to vote on a multiplier for OE then that's fine with me as well. Unfortunately for you, I have never spoken to a coach or an administrator who finds that to be a problem. As a matter of fact, I can't recall a single time it has been brought up except by you.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Were these public school administrators who you were talking with or both? Did you happen to ask the private school folks that if a multiplier were implemented would they want to look at making modifications to OE?

There are no states that have dropped a multiplier that haven't taken any other action
Arkansas dropped it now they just move all private schools above 80 students up a class
Georgia dropped the multiplier and now splits small schools into public and private, nothing for large schools

Colorado, Kansas, Maine, Nebraska, Ohio and Oregon have not adopted proposed multipliers or separation

The following states don't have a multiplier for football
Alaska
Arizona
California
Connecticut
Delaware
District of Columbia (not a state)
Hawaii *depends on the island
Idaho
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisianna
Maine
Massachusetts
Michigan
Mississippi
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Mexico
Ohio
North Dakota
Oklahoma
Oregon
Pennsylvania
Rhode Island
South Dakota
Utah
Vermont
Washington
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming

Some of these states are looking at things but last I read they have nothing for private/public splits, a couple have success systems put into place but the majority have nothing.

 

[Cardinal2012]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
Should the state step in and mandate that Valley split into two schools? It only seems fair? Should we bus some poor kids into Solon? It only seems fair.

Didn't the state do that to Ankeny or was that Ankeny's decision? Not that success in sports was the reason.

 

[rkhemp]

So it is safe to say CID, that there isn't a state that has used a multiplier and said, " This hasn't worked out how we expected it. Let's go back to our old ways."

And I haven't spoken to any private school about a multiplier or OE. But my understanding is private schools do not hold a majority of the membership in the association, am I right? I also feel a multiplier would not hurt the private schools. Kids don't attend private schools just to compete in sports, am I right?

 

[cyard31]

reminds me of a lawyer --- please remember to answer "yes" or "no"
"So" Mr. rhkemp "do you still beat your wife"?

 

[Vroom_C14]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
So asking to play an in city 4A opponent could lead to a multiplier? If anybody could see why those games makes sense it would be the boy$ in Boone. The boo$ters would love that game. I know when they play in baseball... Wait, what was that? They play every year in baseball? And no multiplier is in place? Even though they split this year? Oh yeah the gates for those game$ are just a touch better than traveling to Bellvue. On a side note I will bang the drum of OE, because it may be one of the more hypocritical situations out there.

Bang away!

I didn't say "asking to play" I said if you play and beat them (like Regina did to Xavier - who just dropped from 4A) and throw in the fact that you play and split in them in other sports... could be fuel to the fire.

how many years has Regina asked to play the big boys?

 

[rkhemp]

Originally posted by cyard31:
reminds me of a lawyer --- please remember to answer "yes" or "no"
"So" Mr. rhkemp "do you still beat your wife"?

I've never beaten my wife. And why do you think I am a guy? Are you a sexist pig?

 

[cyard31]

yes or no answer only.
& Oink OInk

 

[cidhawkeye]

So it is safe to say CID, that there isn't a state that has used a multiplier and said, " This hasn't worked out how we expected it. Let's go back to our old ways."

"There are no states that have dropped a multiplier that haven't taken any other action"

I am no expert, nor am I here to question your comprehension skills but I believe that when I typed "there are no states that have dropped a multiplier that haven't taken any other action" that could mean that not only is it safe to say that but I said it about as clearly as I could.

But my understanding is private schools do not hold a majority of the membership in the association, am I right?

You are definitely on a hot streak with your statements in this thread. Why I had never pondered it but gee I guess you would be correct that the public schools do have a majority.

"I also feel a multiplier would not hurt the private schools."
Umm then I guess I question the motivation of doing it. Just to say you did something?

"Kids don't attend private schools just to compete in sports, am I right?"
Just when you were on a hot streak you went off the rails a bit, there are some kids that do go to private schools for sports, much the same way that some kids OE just for sports.


There are currently 35 states that have no multiplier at all. Does that mean we shouldn't go against the majority on this?

 

[cidhawkeye]

So Regina beating Xavier this year is different than playing and beating Solon the previous two years when it was a 1A-3A matchup? Or beating Solon the year they were the 3A champs when Regina was a 2A school? That may have been fuel for the fire following your logic. Coach Miller could have very easily gotten out of this matchup years ago and nobody would have batted an eye or blamed him. Did he publicly say anything about private school advantage? Not to my knowledge, did he turn down the game request? Nope, did he come up with a great game plan and win a huge game this year? Yes. So he chose to get better, much the way Regina did when Solon blasted them 42-7 twice in one year. They chose to step their game up. It's a novel concept that flies in the face of the "get the good teams to get worse or move them out so we can be competitive crowd"

How many years has Regina asked to play the big boys? I know as long as Marv has been there they have. They have played them at the Fresh level and the JV level. They play Bettendorf at the Freshman level and I believe are 4-2 against them. That is just another can of gasoline for the fire I guess.

I did like the Bang Away picture very creative. Now if I could only get a picture of a dead horse and people like you beating that dead horse.

 

[rkhemp]

So, which would you prefer CID. Being 4-2 against bigger schools, or beating small schools by 50 points because you pull or starters out at half? That is a pretty fair question that I asked earlier and haven't got any response to.

And your lessons on reading comprehension are impeccable. Please keep it up as I was unfortunate to have been public educated.

 

[Vroom_C14]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
So Regina beating Xavier this year is different than playing and beating Solon the previous two years when it was a 1A-3A matchup? Or beating Solon the year they were the 3A champs when Regina was a 2A school? That may have been fuel for the fire following your logic. Coach Miller could have very easily gotten out of this matchup years ago and nobody would have batted an eye or blamed him. Did he publicly say anything about private school advantage? Not to my knowledge, did he turn down the game request? Nope, did he come up with a great game plan and win a huge game this year? Yes. So he chose to get better, much the way Regina did when Solon blasted them 42-7 twice in one year. They chose to step their game up. It's a novel concept that flies in the face of the "get the good teams to get worse or move them out so we can be competitive crowd"

How many years has Regina asked to play the big boys? I know as long as Marv has been there they have. They have played them at the Fresh level and the JV level. They play Bettendorf at the Freshman level and I believe are 4-2 against them. That is just another can of gasoline for the fire I guess.

I did like the Bang Away picture very creative. Now if I could only get a picture of a dead horse and people like you beating that dead horse.

Playing and beating Solon the past few years (especially when they won the 3A title) has certainly not dampened the spirit of the sayers that want a multiplier. Continuing the dominance over 3A teams I would think would certainly make the state contemplate things.

I am sure coach Miller wouldn't shy away from competition, he never has and as the AD stated in the paper "I guess we need to step up our game".

As far as "get the good teams to get worse" is something I have never championed - I have repeatedly stated I would like to see more competitive games (and one would think coaches and players would as well).

Regarding who Regina's JV\Fr play, a lot of schools play other schools just to get play time in. But what you are doing by saying Regina's JV\Fr can play and beat a school 6-10x larger than them leans in the favor of those that say "unfair".

I say good for those kids!

 

[cidhawkeye]

I prefer going 6-0 in competitive games.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Now if I could only figure out how to put the word multiplier on the horse and give the guys around the horse proper names I would be on my way. Maybe I can go to the 34 other states that don't have a multiplier and see if their message boards can give me a tutorial on how to do this.

 

[DarkThunder#61]

I've been meaning to post this for a while now (that's how long I've had it sitting open on my computer.......a while). I had a few more things to add to it, but I think I messed up the class numbers somewhere on that so I'll keep that list off for now:


Here's some "educated guessing" on what the numbers would look like if there were a 1.5 multiplier. I'll only list 8-man schools that apply (please correct me where I'm wrong).

Currently smallest and largest school per class in football-

Smallest 4A: North Scott- 713
Largest 3A: Newton- 639
Smallest 3A: Algona; Solon- 315 (Greene County- 300 + Paton-Churdan- 39)
Largest 2A: MOC-Floyd Valley- 315
Smallest 2A: Cascade, Western Dubuque; Okoboji-Milford- 200 (West Burlington- 198 + Notre Dame- 100)
Largest 1A: Unity Christian- 199
Smallest 1A: Van Meter- 158 (West Monona, Onawa- 156 + Whiting- 36)
Largest A: Maquoketa Valley, Delhi- 157
Smallest A: WACO, Wayland- 93

What private schools would look like and who would move up from each class they're currently in with a multiplier-

8-man:
Holy Trinity Catholic (77 to 115.5; of course they share with Fort Madison, so would you then add that total onto Fort Madison's?....Interesting. Right off the bat we have a private school possibly influencing the BEDS numbers of a public school, more than they already do)
Notre Dame, Burlington (100 to 150; Again, they share with West Burlington, which pushed them into 2A. However, if you add the extra 50 from the multiplier this would give West Burlington a total of 348, which would then put them in 3A. So you basically have a school small enough to play 8-man causing a 1A-sized school to bump to 3A because of a multiplier, should that rule actually apply.....interesting.)
Don Bosco, Gilbertville (105 to 157.5; would move to Class A)

Class A:
Bishop Garrigan, Algona (111 to 166.5; would move to Class 1A)
LeMars Gehlen (111 to 166.5; would move to Class 1A)
Mason City Newman (125 to 187.5; would move to Class 1A)
Clarinda Academy (131 to 196.5; would move to Class 1A)
Council Bluffs St. Albert (145 to 217.5; would move to Class 2A)

Class 1A:
Iowa City Regina (178 to 267; would move to 2A)
St. Edmond (178 to 267; would move to 2A)
Pella Christian (183 to 274.5; would move to 2A)
Des Moines Christian (186 to 279; would move to 2A)
Western Christian, Hull (192 to 288; would move to 2A)
Woodward Academy (197 to 295.5; would move to 2A)
Unity Christian (199 to 298.5; would move to 2A)

Class 2A:
Dyersville Beckman (213 to 319.5; would stay in 2A because of other schools added)
Carroll Kuemper (214 to 321; would move to 3A)
Waterloo Columbus (226 to 339; would move to 3A)

Class 3A:
Davenport Assumption (365 to 547.5; would stay in 3A)
Sioux City Bishop Heelan (393 to 589.5; would stay in 3A)
Dubuque Wahlert (408 to 612; would stay in 3A)
Cedar Rapids Xavier (530 to 795; would move to 4A)



Basically the multiplier would be mainly for the private schools in Class A and 1A to move up a class. Would that satisfy any of you?

 

[Vroom_C14]

Originally posted by DarkThunder#61:
I've been meaning to post this for a while now (that's how long I've had it sitting open on my computer.......a while). I had a few more things to add to it, but I think I messed up the class numbers somewhere on that so I'll keep that list off for now:


Here's some "educated guessing" on what the numbers would look like if there were a 1.5 multiplier. I'll only list 8-man schools that apply (please correct me where I'm wrong).

Currently smallest and largest school per class in football-

Smallest 4A: North Scott- 713
Largest 3A: Newton- 639
Smallest 3A: Algona; Solon- 315 (Greene County- 300 + Paton-Churdan- 39)
Largest 2A: MOC-Floyd Valley- 315
Smallest 2A: Cascade, Western Dubuque; Okoboji-Milford- 200 (West Burlington- 198 + Notre Dame- 100)
Largest 1A: Unity Christian- 199
Smallest 1A: Van Meter- 158 (West Monona, Onawa- 156 + Whiting- 36)
Largest A: Maquoketa Valley, Delhi- 157
Smallest A: WACO, Wayland- 93

What private schools would look like and who would move up from each class they're currently in with a multiplier-

8-man:
Holy Trinity Catholic (77 to 115.5; of course they share with Fort Madison, so would you then add that total onto Fort Madison's?....Interesting. Right off the bat we have a private school possibly influencing the BEDS numbers of a public school, more than they already do)
Notre Dame, Burlington (100 to 150; Again, they share with West Burlington, which pushed them into 2A. However, if you add the extra 50 from the multiplier this would give West Burlington a total of 348, which would then put them in 3A. So you basically have a school small enough to play 8-man causing a 1A-sized school to bump to 3A because of a multiplier, should that rule actually apply.....interesting.)
Don Bosco, Gilbertville (105 to 157.5; would move to Class A)

Class A:
Bishop Garrigan, Algona (111 to 166.5; would move to Class 1A)
LeMars Gehlen (111 to 166.5; would move to Class 1A)
Mason City Newman (125 to 187.5; would move to Class 1A)
Clarinda Academy (131 to 196.5; would move to Class 1A)
Council Bluffs St. Albert (145 to 217.5; would move to Class 2A)

Class 1A:
Iowa City Regina (178 to 267; would move to 2A)
St. Edmond (178 to 267; would move to 2A)
Pella Christian (183 to 274.5; would move to 2A)
Des Moines Christian (186 to 279; would move to 2A)
Western Christian, Hull (192 to 288; would move to 2A)
Woodward Academy (197 to 295.5; would move to 2A)
Unity Christian (199 to 298.5; would move to 2A)

Class 2A:
Dyersville Beckman (213 to 319.5; would stay in 2A because of other schools added)
Carroll Kuemper (214 to 321; would move to 3A)
Waterloo Columbus (226 to 339; would move to 3A)

Class 3A:
Davenport Assumption (365 to 547.5; would stay in 3A)
Sioux City Bishop Heelan (393 to 589.5; would stay in 3A)
Dubuque Wahlert (408 to 612; would stay in 3A)
Cedar Rapids Xavier (530 to 795; would move to 4A)



Basically the multiplier would be mainly for the private schools in Class A and 1A to move up a class. Would that satisfy any of you?

Remember those that move in are moving someone out.

 

[DarkThunder#61]

Originally posted by Vroom_C14:
Remember those that move in are moving someone out.

Indeed. And while for the most part I believe I got all the schools' new classes correct, I messed up on the count for one of the classes when moving teams down, so I need to go back and double check.

It's a little messy because of schools that choose to play up a class or schools that consolidate/share for sports.

 

[BlameIt]

it would be a 1.25 multiplier, not a 1.5

 

[Cardinal2012]

Clarinda Academy and Woodward Academy are unique situations in themselves.

 

[Pinehawk]

Read this in the Press-Citizen today in their article about West Branch:



"St. John, Finnegan, Grosvenor and McIlrath all returned as starters from last year's team that went a somewhat un-West Branch like 6-4 and didn't make it out of the opening round of the playoffs.

Giese, an all-stater at Wilton last season, joined the group during the summer and fit in immediately.

The addition of the 6-foot-3, 270-pound Giese has made the already talented Bear offensive line one of the biggest and best in 1A."


People can debate a multiplier all they want, but there can be no doubt that open enrollment and players moving among teams (as also seen with Solon's QB Jacob Black last season) has a direct and meaningful effect on the success of many teams.

Black joined Solon last year for one season, and they made the 3A quarterfinals. Giese joined WB this year, for one season, and they became 1A title contender.
Meanwhile, Wilton, the team Giese left, falls apart and goes 3-6 this year after going 9-2 last year and making it to the 2nd round of the playoffs.
If the State considers any changes in future years, they will need to address public school recruiting as well.

 

[cidhawkeye]

I am not certain but one of those returning may be an OE as well.

 

[Vroom_C14]

How about Grimm from ICW to ICR during their first run for his senior year?

 

[cidhawkeye]

So one in a 5 year stretch? Might as well list McBeth as well, throw Jack Leonard in as well. Is that horse really dead or is he just faking it?

 

[fbfan05]

As long as open enrollment is allowed in Iowa public schools then there is no reason to have a multiplier.

Open enrolling is no different than deciding to go to a private school.
This post was edited on 11/3 6:13 PM by fbfan05

 

[Vroom_C14]

Did Grimm pay for that senior year or was the fee waived? WHy would parents opt to pay 5k+ for 1 final year of schooling?

 

[Greenvapor]

I cannot believe all you whiners out there. You are going to whine no matter what. What you need to understand their will never be a multiple in the state of Iowa no matter how much you whine. Why keep whining over a dead issue. What would all of you if all the private schools in the state of Iowa closed? Whine about how your taxes are going up and up? Like private schools or not, one thing is for sure, private schools save public schools a lot of money. You can whine all you want but I will be at the state tournaments cheering all the teams there, in less The Gaels happen to be fortunately. I would have thought this thread would have died by now. I have been blessed enough to be associated with private schools since I was the age of 5 in some for or another.

 

[cidhawkeye]

He was there for two years and gave up a year of football for it. Perhaps you should ask his family who paid and whether they thought it was a good experience for them.

 

[cyard31]

VR 14 i'll bet a limo picked him up for school every morning.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Have to throw Cooper in as well, all he did was lead the state in hitting in baseball, going 1 for 1

 

[Vroom_C14]

Originally posted by cidhawkeye:
He was there for two years and gave up a year of football for it. Perhaps you should ask his family who paid and whether they thought it was a good experience for them.

Do you speculate on why Black came to Solon? We can all throw around what we "think" are the reasons, but only the kid and family know for certain. Much like anyone else that has made the choice to go to a private school or OE to a public.

Last comment on this thread from me - best of luck those left in the game.