There is a long discussion on Don Bosco playing 8-man when close to the cut off number of 115. Also, the factor of a lot of blowouts through out the year and even in the semifinals. What should be done to make the 8-man Class better?
POLL: How to Fix 8-man?
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I got a good idea: Quit complaining about the BEDS and play the damn game. I aint from Bosco but damn everyone thinks that Bosco is only successful cause the number of kids in their school? Believe it or not, they do work hard in the off season and deserve to be in the championship game. If you hate Bosco so much then make sure your team works harder to beat them. Complaining on Preps doesn't do any good for your team besides put excuses in their mouths and championship teams do not make excuses.
This was just food for thought....I believe more people would like to see more competitive games especially in the dome than just keep all things the same....
Aaron I agree, as others have said on here there are pretty good differences in BEDS numbers in all classes in all sports. Don Bosco is just a good team. I have no dog in this fight at all. I do like the 9 man idea. Very popular in Minnesota and South Dakota. You could have a two class 8 player system such as the state of Kansas does. I hate losing in any sport but success doesn't just happen, it might if you ultra talented but hard work goes along way. I always tell kids I have coached, don't give me excuses why you can't give me reasons why you can.
it just seems to be more blowouts in the 8-man game than than other classes...it does happen, but a lot less....another question.....Is it true football coaches keep their starters in way longer than other sports like say basketball? Do you see basketball coach keeping their starters in until the 4th quarter if they are up by 50+ points? I don't see it
If I was a football coach I would play my starters for a certain duration regardless of score. If I got up big I would be sure to change my play calling and start mixing and matching starters/non starters, but have of the battle is making sure your team is used to playing a full game. I'd hate to lose a game in the dome or finals because my teams has only been playing 2-3 quarters the whole year. In the championship game I wouldn't pull seniors until very late regardless of score again. Not very many kids get to play at the next level, especially 8-man kids. In the semifinal game, if I was up big I'd still probably wait until the 3rd quarter was over.
Using that logic, we should ask what we can do to make A better, since there were two blowouts in their semi final roundOriginally posted by basketball777:
This was just food for thought....I believe more people would like to see more competitive games especially in the dome than just keep all things the same....
Semifinal blowouts happen in all classes. It's not just endemic in 8-man. I can't think of anything that would create more competitive games in the Dome. Some teams just don't match up well and if one team executes better.....BAM, you get scores of 63-21, 48-13, 78-19. Changing enrollment requirements would just change which schools are the largest in 8-man and you would still see someone get thumped on statewide TV. 9-man would just mean i've got one more blocker to take out your extra defender and spring my speedy guys for long TDs. No way we would ever see 6-man replace 8-man. 6-man has it's place in sparsely areas where sharing programs aren't an option, because the nearest neighboring school is 45 minutes or more away.
Yes this years 8man semis were blow outs but so far every game in the dome in any class has been a blow besides the Washington-Solon game in 3A. As fans that kinda sucks and makes it less enjoyable to watch but you can't take anything from any of the teams who have been dominate. That is a result from good schemes and hard work year round. Don Bosco is a good team and deserves to be in the dome. This shouldn't even be a discussion. They earned it so leave them alone. There eligible for 8man so they play 8man.
we could check all the games for all the class to see but my guess is that blowout happen a lot more often a the 8-man level....do you believe that the players love to play games were they are up 50+ point during the season and never get tested and then go to the dome and get it returned on them...not sure they enjoy that...DB was not the point....they are a great team and deserve to be where they are at...the question can 8-man be changed in some way to make the whole thing more competitive...some believe that makes the class better...what do ya'll think?
I just voted for "other" but at the same time I have no problems leaving things just the way they are.. My vote for "other" was based on something I read on another topic here in the 8 man forum. Rather than using the entire class sizes to determine which class a team is in, why not classify teams based on how many MALE students are in the BEDS classes 9-11 for each school. Small schools(read 8 man or class A) are more likely to have classes more out of balance gals vs guys than any of the other classes and thus just because of a high amount of female students in a class or classes can force a school to play football at a level that it has no chance to compete at or in some cases has so many male students that they should be up a level. It goes both ways. Just another opinion.
What other states are doing....
Minn, N.Dakota and S.Dakota...all have a 9 man class
Mizzo and Okie...have 2 classes of 8 man
Wis...has one 8 man class
Neb...has 2 classes of 8 man and one class of 6 man
Minn, N.Dakota and S.Dakota...all have a 9 man class
Mizzo and Okie...have 2 classes of 8 man
Wis...has one 8 man class
Neb...has 2 classes of 8 man and one class of 6 man
Actually, Missouri only has one 8-man class.
Kansas, Nebraska & Oklahoma do have two classes, but have more teams in 8-man despite lower enrollment thresholds for the division (KS 104, NE 114 & OK 76)
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Kansas, Nebraska & Oklahoma do have two classes, but have more teams in 8-man despite lower enrollment thresholds for the division (KS 104, NE 114 & OK 76)
Posted from Rivals Mobile
All this shows is that most of the posters on this board have no idea of what they speak about. They just seem to twist facts to fit their ideas. Most of which are crap.
The only thing I want to see changed with BEDS, and it's got nothing to do with just 8-man (although issue is most prevalent in 8-man) is to stop using total enrollment and go by the number of boys in school. Now, if the schools that have big rosters still qualify under whatever line you want to draw, more power to them. If a school has 50 boys and they're getting 40+ kids out, good for them, I've got no problem with that. But it's ridiculous to see some 11-man schools struggle to get 20 kids out and can't hope to compete, when they might not have all that many potential participants.
I'd say figure out what the rough minimum roster size needed to compete in Class A (for the purposes of this exercise, we'll say 30). Take that number and double it (assuming a school will get 50% participation among boys), and that's your cutoff. If a school (Don Bosco, for example) has less than 60 boys in school but still gets 40-50 kids out for football, more power to them. I'd love to see schools getting 75% or more; that's the sign of a good program.
I'd say figure out what the rough minimum roster size needed to compete in Class A (for the purposes of this exercise, we'll say 30). Take that number and double it (assuming a school will get 50% participation among boys), and that's your cutoff. If a school (Don Bosco, for example) has less than 60 boys in school but still gets 40-50 kids out for football, more power to them. I'd love to see schools getting 75% or more; that's the sign of a good program.
hey tm...I agree as your post essentially says in a little more detail what I said on my earlier post.
Based on how these playoffs are shaping up, we should be asking ourselves how to make other classes like 8-man.
Go to three classes of 11 man and 2 classes of 8 man. The 72 largest schools would be class 3 A. With the remaining 11 man teams divided between the next two classes.
Have 8 districts in 11 man Class 3 A- 4 in each district with top 4 from each district making the playoffs. The rest of 11 man divided equally between the two classes. 8 districts and top 4 from each district into the playoffs
Largest 8 man class or schools between 150 and 100 known as 8 man A class 1
Smallest 8 man made up of schools 99 or fewer know as 8 man A
Have 8 districts in each 8 man class. Top two in each district to playoffs.
Have 8 districts in 11 man Class 3 A- 4 in each district with top 4 from each district making the playoffs. The rest of 11 man divided equally between the two classes. 8 districts and top 4 from each district into the playoffs
Largest 8 man class or schools between 150 and 100 known as 8 man A class 1
Smallest 8 man made up of schools 99 or fewer know as 8 man A
Have 8 districts in each 8 man class. Top two in each district to playoffs.
No more terrible then any of the other ideas put forth so far in this thread.
Why should class 4A only have 48 teams and still have 32 of them making the playoffs. And they are special in the east half of the state. working with no districts. Talk about the pussification of the sport.
Then we complain about all those teams with the weak records getting into the playoffs. 5 Classes of 11 man in the state is way to many.
Am I being sarcastic. Yep. But maybe a few fans out there need to start manning up. The system is set up for the kids. Not the fans. Which is exactly the way it should be.
Why should class 4A only have 48 teams and still have 32 of them making the playoffs. And they are special in the east half of the state. working with no districts. Talk about the pussification of the sport.
Then we complain about all those teams with the weak records getting into the playoffs. 5 Classes of 11 man in the state is way to many.
Am I being sarcastic. Yep. But maybe a few fans out there need to start manning up. The system is set up for the kids. Not the fans. Which is exactly the way it should be.
I have no horse in the race here, but I do think there have been some schools take advantage of the situation.
When 8man football was started it was for schools that maybe only had 20 kids or so out for football, but over time it became a place were good 11 man teams could drop down and make it to the dome, and I don't really like that. I am not saying it is right or wrong I am just saying I don't like it.
A couple of things I would change, 1st off I don't know why we don't go to male only beds numbers for boys sports and female only for girls sports this makes full sense to me. I know a class A school with an enrollment of about 140 and 45 in the senior class but only 13 boys. I am sure there are plenty examples of this both ways.
Secondly there needs to be a stricter enrollment requirement, I think 115 is a fine number or about 75-80 boys number (9-12 instead of 10-12) but they need to enforce this, honestly maybe they should make slight changes to districts each year, Don Bosco was at 118 this year, a number higher than 115 they should have been put in class A. (I am not against the Dons here, just stating a fact)
Finally the state needs to take a survey of schools in January or February on how many boys they expect to play football, if they school says somewhere around 40 or more maybe the state should discourage the playing of 8 man. To me having 40 kids out, that is enough for a Varsity and JV squad playing 11 man football.
Do I expect the boys in Boone to look at changing districts every year, of course not that would be way too much work for them.
When 8man football was started it was for schools that maybe only had 20 kids or so out for football, but over time it became a place were good 11 man teams could drop down and make it to the dome, and I don't really like that. I am not saying it is right or wrong I am just saying I don't like it.
A couple of things I would change, 1st off I don't know why we don't go to male only beds numbers for boys sports and female only for girls sports this makes full sense to me. I know a class A school with an enrollment of about 140 and 45 in the senior class but only 13 boys. I am sure there are plenty examples of this both ways.
Secondly there needs to be a stricter enrollment requirement, I think 115 is a fine number or about 75-80 boys number (9-12 instead of 10-12) but they need to enforce this, honestly maybe they should make slight changes to districts each year, Don Bosco was at 118 this year, a number higher than 115 they should have been put in class A. (I am not against the Dons here, just stating a fact)
Finally the state needs to take a survey of schools in January or February on how many boys they expect to play football, if they school says somewhere around 40 or more maybe the state should discourage the playing of 8 man. To me having 40 kids out, that is enough for a Varsity and JV squad playing 11 man football.
Do I expect the boys in Boone to look at changing districts every year, of course not that would be way too much work for them.
I'm okay with the 2-year cycle for districts. When a school qualifies in the first year of the cycle and then is a couple kids over in the second, I don't see any significant advantage being gained there.
And I definitely don't agree with basing it on actual participation. For one thing, there's little need for population/enrollment-based classification if you do that. But it's also INCREDIBLY difficult to predict at a lot of schools. Just base it on male enrollment and leave it at that. If a school like Don Bosco gets a big percentage of their boys out for football, more power to them. IMO, that's a mark of a great program and schools shouldn't be penalized for that.
Fist of all i would like to say that I think there are a lot of wonderful ideas being mentioned. That being said, I honestly don't believe that there is much that needs changing within the game of 8 man football. I feel that we need to look at what is right with the sport and not so much what is wrong with it. 8 man creates many opportunities for small schools to play a competitive game of football that we all love to watch. That being acknowledged, there are a few things that I would suggest, the first being the beds rule. It is a clear and cut rule and should be implemented as such. I have no problem with a school petitioning to stay within the beds of a class be it 4-A or 8 man, I do however believe that if said school is granted this petition they should be ineligible for the post season until they are under the beds count when it is taken prior to the start of the school year in August. This means that a school could play in the class they have petitioned for but remain ineligible for the post season until their numbers would allow them to be in the class without needing a petition. This would create better competition based on the idea that schools will not be willing to petition to stay in a smaller class while holding the cost of giving up a possible playoff birth in the class that they should be in. Naturally this rule would not apply to a school that wants to stay in a larger class as they would already be considered at a disadvantage by the beds numbers. The second idea that could help 8 man would be a division of the class. Split 8 man into two classes. hold the bed at 123-90 and 89 and below. this would allow for mare small class A schools to drop down as they have been wanting to, and it will create better competition for smaller schools, 89 and below. in any case you will always have blow out games, that is a product of preparedness and off season work. 8 man is now the largest class in Iowa having nearly 70 sanctioned teams. I think it is great for the sport. Two classes would create stronger divisions while still allowing schools to play non district games between both 8 man classes, this will allow for smaller travel schedules as well as better non district competition and it does not end any of the major school rivalries within the state. Just food for thought, I hope you have enjoyed reading this post as much as I have enjoyed writing it.
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