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MVC and MAC to discuss district football on Wednesday

If Xavier goes 3A, I'll miss some of the fans that post here.

What I won't miss are the away games I go to where I have to park my car 1/2 mile down the road, walk 1/2 mile to the field, walk around the football field to the away bleachers, often through kids, high schoolers, football players, and cheerleaders, to sit on some run down wooden bleachers while the home team gets the cadillac seats. If the layout was designed that way, brilliant. I'm wore out before I even get to sit down. Bathroom and concession breaks are just as bad. Xavier fans are really into the game, and it's always been a pleasure going to their games.

The boys in Boone just need to hire Screwloose or at least cut him a check every year.
 
In District 9, the Davenport Central vs Cedar Rapids Jefferson game would stir some memories for folks.

As to Cadillac seats at Xavier, that would be a bit of an exaggeration...perhaps Chevette.
 
Originally posted by EpenesaEpenesa:
Latest word. Talked to a coach in the MVC. Going to districts. Assumption, Wahlert and Xavier are all dropping to 3A. Initially they were doing the crossover games and keeping the MAC and MVC, but nobody could agree to schedules.
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I wonder what the holdup is with scheduling, and who specifically is having trouble with the idea.

Also, just spitballing here, but what would be stopping the MVC from telling the MAC to go pound sand? If it's true, as has been mentioned several times, that the IAHSAA won't impose districts on the east side without the schools requesting it, couldn't a 12-team MVC do just fine on their own?

Xavier, Wahlert and Assumption go 3A. The MVC goes to two 6-team divisions, with 5 division games and 4 cross-division, so each team plays all but two of the teams in the conference.

The MAC would be left with 9 teams and nowhere to pick up additional 4A games. So they likely end up taking a hit for playing 3A opponents for at least one game, and never get a team near the top of the playoff seedings again.

Would screwing over the MAC be enough of an issue for the state to impose districts over the MVC's complaints? I really don't know. Seems like the MAC would be bending over backward to accommodate the MVC in crossover games. And maybe they are, maybe it's a couple of MVC schools being stubborn and throwing a wrench in the whole thing.
 
Originally posted by tylercoan:
If Xavier goes 3A, I'll miss some of the fans that post here.

What I won't miss are the away games I go to where I have to park my car 1/2 mile down the road, walk 1/2 mile to the field, walk around the football field to the away bleachers, often through kids, high schoolers, football players, and cheerleaders, to sit on some run down wooden bleachers while the home team gets the cadillac seats. If the layout was designed that way, brilliant. I'm wore out before I even get to sit down. Bathroom and concession breaks are just as bad. Xavier fans are really into the game, and it's always been a pleasure going to their games.

The boys in Boone just need to hire Screwloose or at least cut him a check every year.
Click to expand...
If you think the conditions for visiting fans are a pain at Xavier, you should see what things are like for visiting teams. Kennedy won't even use the locker rooms at Xavier to dress, they suit up at Kennedy and bus down the street. Jeff and Wash might do the same thing, I don't know.

The school building is very nice, but the diocese cut some corners financially when they built the school back in 1997-98. The auditorium is way too small, and the athletic facilities are cramped, not to mention the fan bathroom facilities. The visitors bleachers put up in 1998 were old bleachers from LaSalle High School, so they have been in dire need of help for a long time. Thankfully they were replaced last season.

And the location? One way in, not enough parking, it's a nightmare. I'm with you on that.
 
Okay, I've found the answer to one of own questions. While the MVC apparently could continue on as a 12-team conference, leaving the MAC to fend for themselves, having only 21 4A teams on the east side would probably cost them a playoff slot. The IAHSAA would likely give 17 slots to a 24-team west side, and only 15 to the 21-team east side. So that's why the MVC schools aren't interested in that plan, and would choose districts over that.

The other question I continue to have ... why is Lewis Central assured of staying in 3A? Maybe their upcoming freshman class is smaller and will drop their BEDS below 700, I don't have that information. But the Metro Sports Report is adamant in saying the state won't move them up to 4A. The last three years their number has been 688-678-702, so maybe they know they are going to drop back under 700 for this year. If that's the case, I guess it answers that question, too.
 
Originally posted by KidSilverhair:

Originally posted by EpenesaEpenesa:
Latest word. Talked to a coach in the MVC. Going to districts. Assumption, Wahlert and Xavier are all dropping to 3A. Initially they were doing the crossover games and keeping the MAC and MVC, but nobody could agree to schedules.
Click to expand...
I wonder what the holdup is with scheduling, and who specifically is having trouble with the idea.
Click to expand...
Assumption.
 
I won't miss the absolute worst press box in the MVC. I'm thinking Xavier asked a group of students at the time to build a press box for them at the time the field was put in and it's still there today. Held together by duct tape.
 
Xavier = Heelan?

It sure seemed like when Heelan left the MRAC, that the process toward creating 4 districts started in the West.

So Xavier is starting the process in the East. Xavier is going back to their Regis roots.

If the 4A Catholic schools in the MVC and MAC are all leaving 4A football..it will affect the 3A districts strengths. It seems like either Xavier or Assumption would be placed in the district which has Keokuk, Ft Madison, etc. I would assume the other team would be placed in the same district as Solon if they remain in the 3A football class.
 
Originally posted by EpenesaEpenesa:

Assumption.
Click to expand...
If that's the case and they know Davenport Assumption is going to 3A, I wonder if the MAC schools are debating the 3A points penalty, if they plan on keeping the point system. On top of that, if there are only three non-district games, which is assured for Davenport Assumption if they are in 3A(and six district games), I'd guess there's at least four MAC schools who all want them on the schedule still(three Davenport public schools and Bettendorf?).
 
Originally posted by screwloose:
Originally posted by EpenesaEpenesa:

Assumption.
Click to expand...
If that's the case and they know Davenport Assumption is going to 3A, I wonder if the MAC schools are debating the 3A points penalty, if they plan on keeping the point system. On top of that, if there are only three non-district games, which is assured for Davenport Assumption if they are in 3A(and six district games), I'd guess there's at least four MAC schools who all want them on the schedule still(three Davenport public schools and Bettendorf?).
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Im not sure. Are these schools going to want to play a 3A school? Are the CR schools going to want to play a 3A Xavier? It will be interesting to see how these non district schedules shake out.
 
That's why I think if they implement the point system back over the entire state, at least for at-large qualifying, every team should be allowed one 3A non-district game without penalty. The Sioux City schools can play Heelan, Quad Cities schools can play Assumption, Dubuque schools could play Wahlert, etc.
 
If the entire state is districts then the point system goes away. Does 4a keep 48 teams? or do the next highest 3a schools bump up?
 
Why does the point system have to go away? It will only go away if the state insists on using that lame ass rank-and-file district qualification. As much as I hate the 4A Point System as it works now, it's a lot better way of determining playoff teams as opposed to straight strict district qualifying.

And if you would have read that link, the state is NOT going to 48 teams in 4A, they don't plan on moving anybody up.
 
It doesn't have to go away but the current way is to match up teams with a sister district. I don't see them changing that. Why would they? It is too easy and allows teams to play teams in the area without penalty. Sure it will allow some terrible teams in but if you have 32 teams out of now 45 you cant help that.
 
I would think that any conflict between the MVC not wanting to play the MAC in the regular season, the MAC would just say screw the MVC we are going district Football. By the way, we are going to take the MVC with us whether they want to or not.
There is no way the Athletic Association will let 3/4 of the state be in district football and one conference.
 
Originally posted by tnobd:

Xavier = Heelan?

It sure seemed like when Heelan left the MRAC, that the process toward creating 4 districts started in the West.

So Xavier is starting the process in the East.
Click to expand...
I just want to say that according to how I read Winker's comments in the article, if the MVC stayed intact with all 14 schools and the current MVC-only schedule, Xavier would stay. They aren't leading the charge out ... they're waiting on Wahlert's decision. So Xavier isn't "starting" the process.

The MAC (Assumption?) brought up this topic. Wahlert is anxious to get back in their correct enrollment classification. I don't think a Heelan-Xavier comparison is anywhere near accurate, as far as which domino was first to fall.

(As to why Xavier isn't interested in staying with a 13-team MVC, or in dealing with MAC teams on their schedule - I do not know the reasons behind that.)
 
You know, looking at South Dakota's Playoff Point System, I really like it. Here's how it works, if it were translated to Iowa 4A...

Team gets 45 points for a win.
Team gets 25 points for a loss.
Team loses 5 points for playing a school in 3A. *So basically a win is 40 and a loss is 20 points instead*

Teams also get 3 bonus points for every win their opponents have during the regular season, not counting the wins against your own team. Formula would be: BONUS = Opponents' wins - personal losses

Seems a lot more fair than the archaic system the IHSAA uses, which gives equal bonus to a team who's 5-4 as a team who's 9-0.

And here is how 4A West and East would have seeded out using this Point System.

WEST...
01. WDM Dowling(9-0) 58.33
02. WDM Valley(7-2) 56.89
03. Ames(9-0) 55.33
04. Urbandale(7-2) 54.22
05. Southeast Polk(6-3) 53.67
06. Waukee(8-1) 53.44
07. Ank Centennial(6-3) 52.00
08. SC East(6-3) 50.44
09. Indianola(6-3) 49.22
10. Johnston(5-4)49.11
11. Ankeny(4-5) 46.89
12. CB Lincoln(5-4) 46.33
13. SC North(4-5) 46.00
14. DM Hoover(4-5) 42.89
15. Mason City(2-7) 42.33
16. Fort Dodge(3-6) 42.33
xx. SC West(2-7) 42.00
xx. Marshalltown(1-8) 41.67
xx. DM Roosevelt(3-6) 41.33
xx. DM Lincoln(2-7) 40.78
xx. Ottumwa(3-6) 39.89
xx. DM East(2-7) 39.78
xx. CB Jefferson(1-8) 38.00
xx. DM North(0-9) 33.67

EAST...
01. Pleasant Valley(9-0) 57.00
02. Dav Assumption(8-1) 54.78
03. CR Xavier(8-1) 54.44
04. IC West(8-1) 54.11
05. Bettendorf(7-2) 52.56
06. CR Kennedy(6-3) 51.67
07. IC High(7-2) 51.56
08. CR Washington(6-3) 51.33
09. Cedar Falls(6-3) 50.00
10. CR Prairie(5-4) 49.11
11. Muscatine(5-4) 48.11
12. North Scott(5-4) 48.11
13. Dub Hempstead(4-5) 46.22
14. Clinton(4-5) 45.89
15. Dav Central(4-5) 45.89
16. Wat West(4-5) 45.56
xx. Marion Lin-Mar(2-7) 43.78
xx. Dub Senior(4-5) 43.56
xx. Burlington(2-7) 41.44
xx. CR Jefferson(1-8) 40.56
xx. Dub Wahlert(2-7) 40.11
xx. Dav North(1-8) 39.22
xx. Dav West(0-9) 37.00
xx. Wat East(0-9) 36.00
 
Kidsilver,
My reasoning for selecting Xavier as the key "domino" is that it seems like the Xavier spokesmen dominated the article. It sounded like Wahlert had made the decision to move to 3A football regardless of the other schools discussion. So the IHSAA could probably live with that imbalance regarding the 8 playoff spots. I didn't see a lot of information from Assumption so I assume that Xavier had the most influence about this decision to go to 3A football, for all three of the Catholic schools involved in both conferences. The dioceses that operate these schools could be making a collective decision to move to 3A football too?

I still think it is amazing how important these three programs were to the MAC and MVC...especially if their 4A exits force district football to the Eastern schools.
 
Screwloose,

There is merit in the point system when determining playoff opponents in districts, conferences, and leagues based on geography. The only issue I have with the system you just suggested is the penalty for playing a lower class team. The other classes have no such penalty and I don't think most other states uses it that have multiclass football schedules. I think the penalty for playing lower class teams that are not quality programs, would be to not advance past the first round of the playoffs. Locally I see interclass games played all the time and the one observation I see is that if you play the best teams, and you qualify for the playoffs, that these teams always advance in the early rounds of the playoffs, regardless of the enrollment class of their opponents.
This post was edited on 12/14 10:22 AM by tnobd
 
Originally posted by tnobd:

Kidsilver,
My reasoning for selecting Xavier as the key "domino" is that it seems like the Xavier spokesmen dominated the article. It sounded like Wahlert had made the decision to move to 3A football regardless of the other schools discussion. So the IHSAA could probably live with that imbalance regarding the 8 playoff spots. I didn't see a lot of information from Assumption so I assume that Xavier had the most influence about this decision to go to 3A football, for all three of the Catholic schools involved in both conferences. The dioceses that operate these schools could be making a collective decision to move to 3A football too?

I still think it is amazing how important these three programs were to the MAC and MVC...especially if their 4A exits force district football to the Eastern schools.
Click to expand...
Winker is the main commenter in the article because it's from the Metro Sports Report, which only covers the Cedar Rapids metro area. The MSR would obviously focus on Xavier's position in all this.
 
I've had a couple of additional thoughts, especially after talking to a former Xavier player who is really against the Saints dropping out of 4A.

First, the point of the eastern schools being so against the idea of losing a playoff slot should they drop to 21 schools. Even 15 of 21 is still around 71% of the teams in the playoffs, which is higher than the present 67% (16 of 24). Putting the west at 17 of 24 is, again, right around 71%. That "loss" of a playoff spot really isn't a loss if you look at it that way.

Which leads to my second point: if Assumption is the sticking point in schedule talks, why wouldn't the MAC tell them to just go play 3A and be done with it? If they are the only (or at least most serious) sticking point, why not cut 'em loose? It would seem to be eminently doable to set up cross-conference games between a 12-team MVC and a 9-team MAC. If the MAC wanted 8 games between themselves and one game each vs a MVC team, then 9 of the MVC teams would play a MAC team each year. Make it two games per MAC school, and there's 18 games to split amongst the 12 MVC teams. Not really insurmountable at all. As I said earlier, MVC divisional games are the only ones that count for divisional titles. Each MVC team would have four non-divisional games, which could easily be split between the opposite MVC division and the MAC.

So anyway, I'm still puzzled by the reasons that are being publicly (and privately) stated for what's going on. Assumption shouldn't be throwing a wrench into cross-conference play, since they don't need to be involved in that scheduling anyway, And the "loss" of an east-side playoff spot really isn't a loss at all - it's just keeping it proportionally equal to the west side.

Not that this means anything considering the decisions coming down. I just think not all of these ADs are really thinking it all the way through - again, given my own personal vast, deep, long-term experience as an AD myself (which is none, of course).
 
Really, if you think about it, Kid, and they stayed as conferences...nine MAC schools and 12 MVC schools works out perfectly. The Black Hawk County teams are really not in a close proximity to playing those from the MAC. So the other nine MVC schools could play MAC teams and the Black Hawk County teams could play Mason City, Fort Dodge and Marshalltown instead.

Cedar Falls - Marshalltown
Waterloo West - Fort Dodge
Waterloo East - Mason City

Dubuque Senior - Davenport North
Dubuque Hempstead - Clinton
Cedar Rapids Jefferson - Davenport West
Cedar Rapids Kennedy - Davenport Central
Cedar Rapids Prairie - Burlington
Cedar Rapids Washington - Muscatine
Marion Lin-Mar - North Scott
Iowa City High - Bettendorf
Iowa City West - Pleasant Valley
 
Overall, the simplest gains can come from aligning the rules for all enrollment classifications. There are more complicated options.

1. IHSAA stated that 4A districts in the East would be considered if schools were interested.
2. MAC schools were interested, thus discussions began
3. Dubuque Wahlert wants to get out of 4A football, thus this is brought up in discussions.
4. Cedar Rapids Xavier evaluates their best option and chooses, this is also subject to discussions.
5. Davenport Assumption evaluates their best option and chooses, this is also subject to discussions.
6. MVC decides upon whether to carry on as a twelve team league versus districts. If CRX and DW go 3A. Discussions.
7. MAC decides upon whether to carry on as a nine team league versus districts. If DA goes 3A. Discussions.

2014 rolls around and the teams that play each other are different than 2013. The majority of the 6 billion people on the planet are not concerned. At this time next year, blogging on this topic is markedly reduced as people scramble to find and fund adequate health insurance.

Seems like things will begin to shake out December 20th, next Friday.
 
What about five geographic districts of nine?

DISTRICT 1...
Council Bluffs Jefferson
Council Bluffs Lincoln
Sioux City East
Sioux City North
Sioux City West
Urbandale
Waukee
West Des Moines Dowling
West Des Moines Valley

DISTRICT 2...
Des Moines East
Des Moines Hoover
Des Moines Lincoln
Des Moines North
Des Moines Roosevelt
Indianola
Johnston
Southeast Polk
Ottumwa

DISTRICT 3...
Ames
Ankeny
Ankeny Centennial
Cedar Falls
Fort Dodge
Marshalltown
Mason City
Waterloo East
Waterloo West

DISTRICT 4...
Cedar Rapids Jefferson
Cedar Rapids Kennedy
Cedar Rapids Prairie
Cedar Rapids Washington
Dubuque Hempstead
Dubuque Senior
Iowa City High
Iowa City West
Marion Lin-Mar

DISTRICT 5...
Bettendorf
Burlington
Clinton
Davenport Central
Davenport North
Davenport West
Muscatine
North Scott
Pleasant Valley
 
Well, yeah, but District 5 is just the MAC without Assumption. How does that gain them anything? If they were asking for districts, and then got this for an answer ... I'd probably laugh. Heartily.

Especially if they all requested Assumption as their non-district game. :D
 
What really sucks is if 4A ends up with an odd number again, which is likely, we're gonna be subjected to at least one bye every week and worst, the season beginning in Week 0. I have to believe if nobody gets moved up and there's 45 teams, Ottumwa is going to get moved over, making the split 23/22. I really find it hard to believe they would split the playoff berths 17/15.
This post was edited on 12/15 5:44 AM by screwloose
 
If Ottumwa is invited or "moved" to the Eastern alignments, it makes sense to make that change since I have always thought they should have been in an Eastern 4A conference. They were part of an Eastern conference before the establishment of the football classes in the 70s. They were even a 4A independent for many years playing in a 3A conference or district to fill their schedule.

I found Loco's timeline post interesting. I think he is a proponent of districts.

I agree with Kidsilver that 4A folks ....ADs and the IHSAA board should look at this deal thoroughly. The solution should be for the long term...not a short term fix until more 4A schools are added or dropped. I think the solution is 4A district play since the districts could be reevaluated every 2 years like the other classes.

4A football has been treated like management by exception for 4 decades. There have been multiple conference's that have been formed, reorganized, and disbanded in that time period. There have even been interstate conferences involved in 4A football. IMO 4A football in has always been a metro activity in Iowa...focusing on creating conferences that serve the metro areas over the smaller towns with 4A enrollment.

I have viewed this board since 2002...there have been countless posts concerning the number of schools, conferences, and alignments for 4A football. Looking back I think the issues in 4A football for scheduling could have been solved by using districts.

The issues for using 4A districts are the details as Screwloose mentioned. I think you need a minimum of 48 schools. If Xavier, DW, and Assumption were always 3A schools by enrollment then the three schools that would replace them, have played at the top end of 3A football for a lot of years. The IHSAA has no problem moving teams up and down in the other classes, even though some of the schools have had trouble competing at the higher classes for short periods of time. If the other classes do not like the percentage of schools that qualify for the 4A playoffs, then they should petition the IHSAA board to distribute the classes evenly in 11 man football from Class A through 4A or quit complaining about it. If the IHSAA members truly think the private schools in all classes should be playing up a class then they should establish a multiplier for private schools.

If I remember correctly the playoff point system was established for all classes in the 70s, because with just 4 and 8 qualifier's at that time, they had to disqualify teams that played inferior schedules. In 4A football you had to win all your games and if you had one loss you had to be in the Des Moines Metro Conference or belong to the Mississippi Conference that existed at that time. 4A football was the only class that kept that form of the point system after districts were established. IMO the 4A point system worked well with 8 qualifiers on each side of the state, but was rendered useless with 32 qualifiers...unless you are talking about the final 8 qualifiers.

This post was edited on 12/15 7:55 PM by tnobd
 
It's time guys. I just have a feeling this is the end of the MVC and MAC. Too many schools want changes, and districts are going to be the answer.
 
Yep, sounds like it. I still think the ADs are overreacting to this potential 17/15 split of playoff slots (given a 24/21 split of 4A teams, that means 7 western teams miss the playoffs, and only 6 eastern teams miss out, so ... tell me again why that's so terrible?), but it ain't my call.

I saw the mention of the 8-game schedule again, with the teams that miss the playoffs given a 9th game once the playoff slots are filled, but ... if 4A goes to 45 teams, and 32 make the playoffs, and only 13 miss out ... where do you get the game for that 13th team? Odd numbers don't work so well with that notion.

I still think they ought to just have a standard, EVEN number of teams assigned to each class. Naturally, if you have an odd number of schools competing statewide, one of the classes would end up with an odd number, but make the top 48 4A, the next 56 (or 48, whatever) 3A and so on down the line. Deal with any potential odd number lower down the class ranks.

Again, I personally will be a bit sad to see the MVC go, but district play won't be the end of the world. It might end up being kind of fun. (No five-team districts, though, please, if you can help it ... having only 4 games count toward playoff eligibility seems crazy).
 
Screwloose

The IHSAA needs to move at least 2- 4A schools east and add CBLC to the West districts for balance....I realize that allows a 5 team district on both sides. I assume Ottumwa and Mason City would be moved at that point to the East. But the IHSAA could do the whole thing the right way and select the top 48 schools in enrollment and create the 8 districts per geography...but that doesn't sound like it will happen? If they don't reclassify teams this year they will be waiting another 2 years to make changes.
This post was edited on 12/16 9:56 AM by tnobd
 
I find it interesting they're going to use ten-year records to form their "tier system" to balance things out. My old numbers need to be revised. I have work to do...
 
Information is CBLC's recent beds count is in the 730's and they are 4a in every sport except football....they apparently would prefer playing 4a football. Not sure why the state doesn't accomadate them by moving them up.
 
And also interesting that the notion of the east side setting up their own districts (and retaining control of scheduling) was in there. I didn't realize that was an option. So, if they do that, does the state change the playoff qualifying for them, too, even if the state isn't doing the districts for them?

Not to mention the idea of three 5-team districts. Hate that. Only four games to determine if you're in the playoffs? Might as well flip a coin.
 
"That means no more conference football records, no more all-conference football teams, no more conference sophomore games[/B], no more conference football champions. It's all going down the drain."

Does this mean that there won't be sophomore games anymore? I guess I haven't noticed in the west if they still play sophomore games. If that's the case, we're going to see some big football teams numbers wise.
 
I believe they have games for the freshman and sophomore teams with varsity 4A district opponents in the West. I believe they try to schedule the same games that the varsity has with the sophomores and try to stick with area games for the freshman.
 
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