Knoxville course

[ValleyHawk22]

Can anybody pass along some info about the course Knoxville is using for the district meet? We'll be running there for the first time, and we don't know much about it yet. Looks like some boys ran fast times there a couple weeks ago.

Thanks.
This post was edited on 10/11 8:26 PM by ValleyHawk22

 

[john norman howard speedway]

At the start line is where you start. You run around on the grass for awhile (about 15-16 minutes if you're a decent runner). Then you cross the finish line and you're done.

What does it matter what the course is like? Everyone there runs the same course. Train hard and COMPETE!!! Don't make things more complicated than they are. Cross country!!! Not track. Cross country!!!! Get it?

 

[WyattEarp2]

It is very hilly. Some long downhills, and long uphills.

about the only flat you're on is the start for 250 yds, and the finish for 250 yds.

 

[Jako18]

The course does matter, obviously you didn't run if you don't think it does.......

 

[cidhawkeye]

Try the decaf next time. A legit question was asked, when responding like that it makes people not want to participate.

 

[dug58]

If the course doesn't matter don't tell anyone where thye are until the morning of district and state. And why should the host school get an adavantage by knowing the course?

Getting information is part of coaching. Kids and coaches talk about courses.

 

[john norman howard speedway]

What matters more than the course in a race, is the distance. Boys run 5k. Regardless of the course, if you haven't trained properly, knowing the course is going to do you no good. Hill repeats, aerobic intervals, anaerobic intervals, threshold runs, and long HARD runs (not weekly mile enhancing jogs) all need to be done regardless of flat or hilly courses. Walking or jogging a course tells you virtually nothing. Running sub 5 minute miles on a course is completely different. Most high school coaches have not competed at a high enough level, if at all to know what they're talking about. High school and even most college coaching is mediocre at best. Strategy is based on the type of runner, not the coach, not the course. Strength and endurance runners go to the front, surge the uphills, and hammer the downhills. Speed guys sit in a pack, let someone else do the work, and then kick. Give me a guy that's willing to work and enjoys the pain over a more physically mature hotshot with "talent" and I'll give you a champion. I've competed (and still do) and I've coached (and still do).

 

[john norman howard speedway]

P.S. I have yet to see a strategy worked to perfection. There are other runners, which means an athlete is not free to do what they want except the guy that goes to the front and stays there until the finish. Runners have to react to the race situation regardless of terrain or they might as well stay home and run around the block. Train hard to make the race easy and COMPETE.

 

[Jako18]

Leading a race is THE stupidest way to win unless there is no competition. As Bill Bowerman would say in Without Limits "It may work for you in the high school but at the college level is a disaster." Sorry but Prefontaine rarely comes and I guarantee you that none of your runners OR you have the ability to run a race the way he did, or at his caliber, and that is fine.
This post was edited on 10/13 5:10 PM by Jako18

 

[bdrube]

Strategy is based on the type of runner, yet not the course? Seems to contradict itself. The terrain of a course is directly related to the type of runner in terms of strategy. Obviously you may coach, but you must be one of the mediocre at best if you can't figure that one out.

 

[long-may-u-run]

Originally posted by john norman howard speedway:
What matters more than the course in a race, is the distance. Boys run 5k. Regardless of the course, if you haven't trained properly, knowing the course is going to do you no good. Hill repeats, aerobic intervals, anaerobic intervals, threshold runs, and long HARD runs (not weekly mile enhancing jogs) all need to be done regardless of flat or hilly courses. Walking or jogging a course tells you virtually nothing. Running sub 5 minute miles on a course is completely different. Most high school coaches have not competed at a high enough level, if at all to know what they're talking about. High school and even most college coaching is mediocre at best. Strategy is based on the type of runner, not the coach, not the course. Strength and endurance runners go to the front, surge the uphills, and hammer the downhills. Speed guys sit in a pack, let someone else do the work, and then kick. Give me a guy that's willing to work and enjoys the pain over a more physically mature hotshot with "talent" and I'll give you a champion. I've competed (and still do) and I've coached (and still do).

Wow! Care to name the school and champions you have produced? Usually, someone who has done it doesn't feel the need to emphatically announce to the world how great they are. There are not a whole lot of secrets in distance running. There is nothing wrong with wanting to know what a course is like. You can certainly base strategy on knowing the course ahead of time. But that is just my uninformed humble opinion.

 

[long-may-u-run]

Originally posted by john norman howard speedway:
P.S. I have yet to see a strategy worked to perfection. There are other runners, which means an athlete is not free to do what they want except the guy that goes to the front and stays there until the finish. Runners have to react to the race situation regardless of terrain or they might as well stay home and run around the block. Train hard to make the race easy and COMPETE.

I have! And that is why I enjoy the TEAM aspect of xc as much or more than the single superstar on race day.

 

[B-K_Teach]

I too would like to know who you are. I too am a coach and I too still compete. I would never say such outlandish rubish.

 

[cc coach]

Wanting to know what a course is like is relevant - sure, being in good shape is more important. But, once you ARE in good shape, some knowledge of the course is very valuable. Is it hilly? Is it flat? Is it 200 meters short? Is it rough? All of that matters. We run on a course where the entire first mile is deceptively up hill and tougher than you realize - it DEFINITELY pays to know that, and not get carried away early in the race. Can't fault someone for wanting to get their kids prepared for what to expect in a race.

Also - if you are going to preach about the "proper" way to train, you should probably reconsider two of your assertions:
Long "Hard" runs, and "Train hard to make the race easy."

Both are probably the most common errors associated with HS distance training. Zero research that either one of those philosophies is beneficial in any way over the long haul. True "long" runs should NOT be "hard." They should be 1:30-2:00 slower than race pace. And, training paces should be based off of race performance as opposed to trying to predict race performance off of how hard you practice.

 

[john norman howard speedway]

Multiple all Americans, couple of national champions, and an age group world record holder.

Consistant hard training with proper recovery makes the hard training routine. "Hard training" is based on the individual and fitness level, but that is not how high school athletes are "coached", and I use that term very loosely. Keeping athletes healthy is the number one priority and coaches can't seem to get it. Most running injuries are overuse injuries which means the athlete is doing too much training in one area. At the end of the season, coaches get frantic because their team hasn't performed, which compounds the problem.

Yes courses and weather affect performance, but are over rated as far as importance compared to being physically fit, mentally tough, and focused.

 

[bdrube]

Care to name any of those All Americans or National Champions? Because anyone that is anonymous can make that claim. I'd love to, but most people know who I am.

And it is not always the fault of the coach when it comes to overuse, I'd say that is just as much fault of the runner as the coach. Especially in males, the ego gets in the way of backing off when you should. We''ve all been there and it's no ones fault but our own.

 

[john norman howard speedway]

bdrube- No brag, just fact. When the coach lays out the program, especially with high school runners, it is the coaches fault. You are right, athletes are ultimately responsible for their own health and fitness. I'll give you a good example though. Athlete tells coach his achilles is sore. Coach tells athlete to take some advil and ice achilles. By looking at the way the athlete was standing, it was obvious that new shoes were needed. The outer sole was completely worn away at the outer heel and the midsole was worn away significantly. The uppers still were in good shape. Young runner didn't know better, coach should have. Also, coach shouldn't be prescribing ANY medication.

Jako, if you're not willing to race from the front, that's fine, but before you say it's stupid, take a look at the Kenyans, Steve Jones, Geoff Smith, Rob DeCastillo, Carlos Lopes, Bill Rodgers, Alberto Salazar, Thom Hunt, Jon Thomas, Kiel Uhl, Ryan McMurrin, Stephan Dak, Joe Morgan, Mark Nenow, Aurturo Barrios, etc., etc., etc. None of them ever waited around for anyone else.
This post was edited on 10/14 3:08 PM by john norman howard speedway
This post was edited on 10/14 3:10 PM by john norman howard speedway

 

[bdrube]

Very, very few people can handle leading from the gun. And most the people that do it, especially the HSers you named were just that much better than everyone. You get Uhl in a 8:45-8:55 race he probably breaks 9 his senior year, yet he settled for 9:0x because he had to do all the work. It is a proven fact that leading a race the entire way is not the most condusive way to winning, and on the big stage it fails a lot more than it succeeds.

I'd say a fair amount of hs xc/track coaches (along with other sports) aren't necessarily in it because of the passion and extreme knowledge of the sport. The additional pay is probably the reason.

I'm not saying it is not ever the coaches' fault, it certainly is in cases. But, when you have 55 kids or whatever, you can't really individualize unless that is your only job. And even then, a lot of collegiate coaches are just to lazy to do it. But, as an athlete you also know your body better than the coach does. It's easy to get roped into 6:05 pace on an "easy" day because someone you are better than is feeling good that day. That's the athletes fault for being an idiot.

 

[captain_sparrow]

Notice how he has yet to name who his amazing athletes are.

 

[cc coach]

Yeah . . . .I can pretty much assure you that HS coaches are not in it for the "extra pay." I could go paint some houses for 20-25$$ an hour cash, or, I could coach CC and track for about $3-5 an hour in my check - taxed. That is pretty much a no-brainer.

I think the thing that is sort of missed so far, is this one, little, sort of important tidbit - The job of a HIGH SCHOOL coach is NOT to attempt to turn out national caliber runners. Our job is to primarily work with kids who simply want the experience of being involved in an extracurricular activity. 90% of everyone who ever participates in a high school sport is involved in it as a basic participant. Involvement in HS level extracurricular activities (you know, the ones funded by education $$) is meant to enhance and encourage participation at the HS level. The 23:00 5K runner deserves the exact same good experience as the 16:00 5k runner. HS participation is not meant to be a training avenue for the 1 in a 100 or 1 in a 1000 individual who wants to compete at an elite level. The simple fact is that the VAST majority of kids are not going to be "year round" runners. They are participants in a variety of activities, one of which is running for a few months. This notion that it is the public education sector's responsibility to turn out properly trained, elite level athletes is utterly stupid. HS sports provide and opportunity for kids to be involved, which in turn, seems to enhance their achievement in the classroom (although, that is probably debatable). Short of that - HS sports are pretty hard to justify at all.

 

[B-K_Teach]

It appears this thread has been hijacked by a troll. Nothing of recent has been worthwhile read here, move along.

 

[se xc1]

I wouldn't say that. I always find bdrube and cc coach's posts good reading along with Mr. Vickers. When someone that knows less than them makes goofy statements, I look forward to them bringing common sense to the subject matter. Now if you guys don't mind, I just noticed the crap below my beautiful uppers and I need to get some sleep before I get up bright and early to buy some new shoes!

 

[Duddley Do Right]

CC Coach, I really hope you are not a coach and that is just a handle on here. You seem exactly like the majority of mediocre to poor XC coaches with no passion for the sport. Exactly the type of person I would not allow my children to run for. Since your likely a teacher how exactly is the short term knowledge game going for you? There is unbelievable amount of lessons learned through the hard work and discipline required to be great at the sport and as you might not know those characteristics are severely lacking in society with a majority of kids being obese, why run when you can get fat and push people for a couple seconds on the football field.

 

[CoachW-xc]

Duddley, I know I am coming into this thread late in the game, but please tell me I should be reading your post with as sarcasm. Calling out CC coach like that?
I do not have the time, nor the patience to post a proper response to that. I guess I too am one of those "mediocre to poor" coaches who have to get to a 6:30am Saturday practice.

 

[cc coach]

Dudley - I think you are missing my point - I agree with what you state as follows:

"There is unbelievable amount of lessons learned through the hard work and discipline required to be great at the sport"

I only disagree in respect to the last portion of this statement - the "required to be great" part. Almost every kid who ever participates in ANY sport will NEVER be "great." It has to do with the simple fact of ability and it also has to do with the fact that they may not want to spend a huge chunk of their time attempting to be "great" at running. Maybe their major priorities lie elsewhere - the classroom, music, drama, other sports, hobbies outside of school, etc. If running really is their primary passion, I think it is a responsibility of a coach to help develop that as much as possible. However, for the vast, vast number of kids involved it is NOT the central focus in their life. And, all I am saying is that it is a coach's job to make sure that the experience of the 90% is not overshadowed by the ego of coaches wishing they got to only work with the 10%. Why does a kid have to "want to be great at running" - why isn't enough that kids enjoy running and exercise as a portion of a well-rounded life?
There are lessons to be gained in extracurriculars - but, they are not only there for the "great" runners. Those same lessons can be gathered in other extracurricular activities, in school, and throughout their life. EVERYONE deserves the lessons, and more often than not, the lessons are better learned by the average to below average runners than they are by the "great" runners.

I am not going to get into a game of trying to justify whether I am, or am not a good coach. Personally, I really only care if kids I coach are happy with me as a coach. But I will say this - there are 4 things that I am most proud of as a coach, and they really have little to do with how "great" any of the runners I coached were -
1.)The number of runners who began their careers as 22-25 minute 5k runners, and ended their careers at the state meet or as 17/18 minute runners.
2.)The number of "participants" and "nonrunners" who were 3 month runners in HS, and come back and tell me about the marathons and half marathons they recently ran.
3.)The number of kids we have out for CC/Track.
4.)The former runners who go into coaching down the road.

 

[cc_gru]

umm... I too must me a "mediorcre to poor" coach... I agree with CC Coach's post. There is so much more to learn from cross country.

I have a first-year year runner who set a new PR last week - it was a huge accomplishment for him - he made his goal #3 for the year. In his journey the last three months, he also has made long lasting friendships and bonds with his teammates - and when he walks the halls in school, he isn't alone -he has more confidence in the classes and is doing so much better - this isn't because he is a sub 16:00 runner - this is because of the new found family and support system he has gained the last three months. He ran under 24:00! We all set high goals for our top kids and strive to do the best job we know how to do, to get them to achieve at the highest level, but as a coach, we are also responsible for ALL of our athletes.

btw - to get on the topic -
If I was taking a team to Knoxville, I would want to know what to expect from the course - there is a mental aspect to coaching HS'ers also - and remember you need to coach your entire team - not just the few kids who are studs. I get to go to Dike with my runners. There are 29 teams there, with probably 120-140 kids per race - so less than 1/9 of the teams will earn a state birth, and less than 1/12 of the individuals will earn a trip to State. Of these runners - there are only a small handful of them blessed with the genetics, work ethic, attitude, family support, and coach/teammates/school system, that all come together for them to win the meet, BUT don't think that the kid who finishes #12 or #60 has not worked hard or been coached well this season. My wife will be at the NF district - {I'm glad I'm not there} - if I was there, I would prepare my runners differently than I would for Dike because the courses are quite different.

(on a side note: good luck CC Coach at the NF district, definitely loaded on both boys and girls side for you - should be a barn burner on the girls side!)

Good luck this week to all the real coaches - who are there for their runners each night, not to win championships, but because they want the best for their runners, they give up countless hours from their families and own kids, to help their athletes become good all around people, and in the mix, might provide them with a love for running...

 

[se xc1]

Well said CC Coach and CC Gru. I know CC Coach and if you knew where he coached, you would know he is a GREAT coach and has accomplished much. CC Gru, I will be at Dike as well, so please come introduce yourself as I don't know who you are. I believe my name tells you who I am. I believe our girls race, like NF's district, is incredibly competitive. Run well Thursday!

 

[captain_sparrow]

Good luck to se xc1 and Coach_W at Districts. And to all the other coaches on here that I don't personally know.

I wish I knew something about the Knoxville course so that I could help out the original poster.

 

[cc_gru]

se xc - I Coach Starmont - my wife Coaches at NF, and I have a brother at Osage - therefore I have looked closely at both DNH's teams and NF's teams.

See you on Thursday

 

[se xc1]

Osage has a very good team this year on the boys side. See you Thursday.

 

[WyattEarp2]

I replied about the course earlier before this discussion took off, but here goes.....The course is very hilly. Long stretches of both uphills and downhills. There are very few flat spots. The boys course is a little short, while the girls is about 30m long.

 

[cc coach]

Good luck to you guys as well - just business as usual in NE Iowa for district cross country
As loaded as the both districts are, I was impressed that there was some obvious efforts taken to level the playing field to some degree. North Linn could have easily been at Dike, and I was thinking Hudson and Northeast were likely candidates for West Union. That would have really made for nasty districts.
Hope everyone has a good finish to the season.

 

[long-may-u-run]

Originally posted by john norman howard speedway:
Multiple all Americans, couple of national champions, and an age group world record holder.

Consistant hard training with proper recovery makes the hard training routine. "Hard training" is based on the individual and fitness level, but that is not how high school athletes are "coached", and I use that term very loosely. Keeping athletes healthy is the number one priority and coaches can't seem to get it. Most running injuries are overuse injuries which means the athlete is doing too much training in one area. At the end of the season, coaches get frantic because their team hasn't performed, which compounds the problem.

Yes courses and weather affect performance, but are over rated as far as importance compared to being physically fit, mentally tough, and focused.

Still no names? I can always tell a high school kid who is coached by someone like you. "Surge the hills and hammer the downhills" stuff. These kids are pumping their arms for all they are worth on every hill in the first mile and a half. The coach is screaming to "pump your arms" on every hill. By the 2.... 2 and a half mile point they are toast. If you have 2 kids of equal talent, I will coach my runner to maintain equal "effort" throughout the race and you tell yours to surge and hammer. My athlete will beat yours more often than not. I can't believe someone of your stature is afraid to say who they are. Especially because of your abundance of confidence in your philosophy.

 

[B-K_Teach]

Stop feeding the troll. And good luck to the original poster that took interest in the Knoxville course. I hope you/your team have fulfilling races.

 

[ValleyHawk22]

I hadn't checked this thread for a few days, so it's been fun catching up with the posts written since then. Our team underperformed earlier this year on a course that we were running for the first time, so my original post was an attempt to prevent a repeat of that (we got out too slow before coming to a bottleneck, followed by about a mile on a narrow trail...not enough race left at the end to make up the lost ground).

Thanks for the responses to the original question, and good luck to everyone at their meet Thursday.