District Football Killed Class 4A

[franky1967]

Ive followed 4A football for a very long time. I have seen changes made to 4a football that did not make sense and I truly believe this is the a direct cause of low numbers in football across the state.

In 1986 they expanded the playoff field to 16 teams, this was a good thing as a lot of 7-2 and 6-3 teams were left out of the playoffs.

In 2000 they went with the east and west split in the playoffs, meaning each side of the state would be represented in the title game. I think this was a bad thing as it took the excitement out of the playoffs.

In 2008 the playoff field was expanded to 32 teams. I liked the idea, but they should have went with 24 teams in all classes. I think this would have been the best thing for 4a football.

In 2014 the death of the last Conference play in the state, the Mississippi/Valley.

If you look at the few things I posted it is understandable why kids dont choose to play football anymore. This also affects its fan base as well..

For kids, why go out for football only to just play in the regular season? You look at the districts and you can almost tell before the season who will be playing in the playoffs.

For the Parents and fans, why encourage your kid to play when you already know that the chances for a schools success is very little at best.

The best thing to do at the 4a level is to expand 4a Football Playoffs to 24 teams,
Get rid of the district playoff format and in the Semi-Finals go back to the old style where each side of the state might not be represented in the 4a title game.

 

[CF_93]

I think they need to go to a modified point system, similar to what they had before, and count ALL games, not just the 5 district games. I've posted this several times over the last few years. Basically, (and forgive me if my memory is becoming a bit swiss cheesed on the finer details of the old point system), you get bonus points for every team you beat in 4A that finishes with a 5-4 record. That same point value could be used for every 3A team you beat that finishes 7-2 or 8-1. Thus, the same point values awarded for beating teams who finish 4-5 or worse in 4A could also be applied to teams you beat in 3A who finish with records between 3-6 and 6-3. 2-7 or worse would be a lower value, etc.

Now that we have playoff games exclusively on Fridays, there shouldn't be as big of an issue with traveling a little further for a playoff game, vice traveling clear across the state on a Wednesday or Monday night as it was in the past. So let's just seed the entire state #1-16, and match them up accordingly, home based on high seed.

 

[tnobd]

Franky, you have been consistent with your theme on this board that the regional 4A split in playoff format was a mistake. However at this point, with the strength of the Des Moines suburban teams there might be an all Central Iowa final if that was done today. I do agree with your observation about the prediction of playoff teams now as they have created a group of 4A teams that will always participate in the playoffs by placing the best 2 programs in each district. I don't see that the IHSAA will disband 4A district football...but it seems like 24 playoff participants and larger districts would create more regular season interest and help participation numbers.

 

[roosterk]

50%+ of the teams know before the first snap they won't be making the playoffs. The aren't playing for the play offs. They are playing because they enjoy the game or because they are playing because it's their friends favorite game.

Really 2/3's of the class should make the playoffs. Might as well make take all the team, make the class 32, drop the stupid 8 districts down to 4, every game count towards play off seating. But only 4 teams will win a district so less winners.

Really be the best of 24 teams and your a state champion. Everybody's a winner I guess.

 

[tnobd]

I'll give Franky a thumbs up. He has been a long time 4A IP Football poster. I can't blame him from missing the 4A Mississippi Valley Football Conference days...it seemed like the most cohesive 4A conference in its days and the AD's appeared to be the most united until the conferences all disolved. I liked the MVC's realignment every couple of years to create change like a district. I wonder how many 4A AD's would have voted on both sides of the state for district 4A football, if they had known the playoff qualifiers would be dropped in half, due to the player safety reasons the IHSAA cited? I think schools like Ft Dodge, Indianola, Muscatine and a few city Des Moines high schools would have thought twice about districts if they knew that qualifiers would have been reduced in a few years?

 

[franky1967]

So Roosterk, a day will come when a 6-3 team will knock a 7-2 team out of the playoffs. It will happen this year Newton will be left out as it watches (4) 6-3 teams make the playoffs.

I can tell you from being around for awhile that The East side of the State is playing against traditionally rich playoff schools.

I dont think the West side has that History, You have Dowling and Valley. Neither won of them won a State Championship before the East/West split.

It appears everybody wants to keep things small, so the strong can keep pounding on the weak. When the playoffs where at 32 there were some upsets on the East side of the State.

Why should a 6-3 team make the playoffs when 4 or more with the same or better record get left out. I like CF_93 idea and at least go back to the old point system.

Teams are traveling just as far for regular season games as they will for playoff games so I dont see a reason why they just dont get rid of the split. Seed all 16 Teams and let them travel.

 

[EHS1505]

When Sioux City doesn't make the playoffs... seeding 1-16 could make sense and be more entertaining from a fans perspective. When one of them makes it, seeding 1-16 could result in 11 hours on a bus. Sioux City to Bettendorf (or Bett to Sioux City) is 5 hours and 25 minutes. No team travels 5 1/2 hours one way during the regular season. Any part of the state can make it to Des Moines in 3 hours... if they did 1-16 seeding they would need an addendum to limit travel to 3 hours. That wouldn't guarantee the split remained, but it would almost be forced to happen organically. You can point to the fact that Sioux City football hasn't been great as of late, but athletics are cyclical in nature and things like schools splitting or being created (Centennial, Liberty, Waukee #2 eventually) can lead to shifts in power, even if only a season or two. Those issues would need to be planned for and addressed in the guidelines.

 

[franky1967]

Lets say Sioux City team makes the SemiFinals and Finals, they have to travel 5hrs. Both times.

If they played a team in the far east they could always play at a midpoint somewhere.

 

[roosterk]

If you go 24 teams per all classes you are talking 12 classes. Dowling won't even be the top class.

4A needs to stay greater than 24 IMO, go to 36, 6 district of 6 schools, 5 regular season game,4 non-district, 16 to playoffs, top 2 per district plus 4 wild cards.

3A down to 1A, 6 districts of 8 teams for 48. 7 district games, 1 non-district. 32 qualify for playoffs, 1 thru 5 plus 2 wild cards. Other 16 matched up in non-district final game.

Break the remaining schools into thirds, top ;third class A, next 2 thirds 8A and 8B. Playoffs same as 3A-1A, maybe 0 non-district games.

8 player records remain 8-player regardless if playing in A or B.

 

[Drewolson24]

If you go 24 teams per all classes you are talking 12 classes. Dowling won't even be the top class.

4A needs to stay greater than 24 IMO, go to 36, 6 district of 6 schools, 5 regular season game,4 non-district, 16 to playoffs, top 2 per district plus 4 wild cards.

3A down to 1A, 6 districts of 8 teams for 48. 7 district games, 1 non-district. 32 qualify for playoffs, 1 thru 5 plus 2 wild cards. Other 16 matched up in non-district final game.

Break the remaining schools into thirds, top ;third class A, next 2 thirds 8A and 8B. Playoffs same as 3A-1A, maybe 0 non-district games.

8 player records remain 8-player regardless if playing in A or B.

Like the idea, but why don't you like more non-district game options for 3A-1A? What about rivalries, and the option to play new opponents who you have some say in playing instead of set district schedule

 

[roosterk]

Could just as easy be 8 district of 6, but and just take the top 4 teams to the playoffs, but will have teams with losing records making it in. The 1 vs 4/5/6 game in either system won't be very good. But that game might have happened anyway in the current system but just as a non-district game earlier in the season. 32 is probably just too many teams.


With 6 districts of 8 the top 2/3 teams are usually going to be pretty good. All but 2 3rd place finished would make it in. I think 16 might be the better number for all classes.

If I was on 4th-8th district finishing team or watching I'd rather have the final game be against another 4-8 team non-district than a #1 in the playoffs

 

[roosterk]

Looking at the list of schools by enrollment, not sure really need to reduce the district size of 3A down to 1A. The shift of 12 from 4A down is enough for 2 years. Makes the 4A break right around 900 beds. 2176/900 = 2.4 ratio(currently 3.3).

3A would be 900 down to around 342, 900/342 = 2.6.
2A 342/218 = 1.6,
1A 218/159 = 1.4
A 159/122 = 1.3. The rest would be 122 down to 45 2.7. about 73 teams.

If split the everything below 1A into thirds, would be about 43 teams per class. BEDS cut off 11 to 8 would be around 120.

Class A would be 153/120 = 1.3 (I'd expect some 8A eligible teams to play up so maybe 48-56 actual teams)
8A would be 120/97 = 1.2
8B 97/45 = 2.1

 

[roosterk]

If went to 36 in 4A and 48 teams 3A thru 1A,
3A 900/371 = 2.4
2A 370/250 = 1.5
1A 250/183 = 1.4
That would leave about 153 teams left to make A and 8 player.

 

[EHS1505]

Lets say Sioux City team makes the SemiFinals and Finals, they have to travel 5hrs. Both times.

If they played a team in the far east they could always play at a midpoint somewhere.

Cedar Falls is only 3 hours and 44 minutes and that will drop another 10-15 minutes within the next few years. Highway 20 project has cut drive times down quite a bit to cities along that route. Looking at 7 hours compared to 11. I just don't think the state will ever seed 1-16. I like different match-ups, but there still needs to be some reasonable considerations.

 

[franky1967]

I agree with you on that, wont happen, but that still does not mean they have to have a East/West split. They could go back to the old point system for starters and then modify each round as it is played.

Thats pretty much how they did it up until 2000

 

[PNation]

I wish that the state would go to a system where schools essentially are able to play whoever they want and then go to points when it comes to qualifying for the playoffs. Essentially what they did before 1992.

What I see is teams in the corners of the state traveling long distances for district games. Decorah for example the closest school in their district is Charles City which is like 80 mins. But they could easily play 2A schools that are in the NEIC with them. You see this in all classes, where teams have long travel for district opponents. In 1A MFL MarMac and Lake Mills are in the same district that is 2.5 hours, when both schools have teams in 2A and A that they could easily play. I think this would help Sioux City and Council Bluffs schools as well. I would bet that Heelan and SBL would love to play all 3 of the Sioux City public schools.

I would say that the one downfall would be the same thing that you saw back in the day, according to the point system the state used a 5-4 class 1A school that played mostly 2A schools is better then a 9-0 1A school that played 1A and A schools. Thats where things get difficult.

I know I strayed away from just 4A football here, but I think its something that needs to happen overall.

 

[CF_93]

The east/west split is a bit antiquated, now that playoff games are played exclusively on Friday nights. The whole idea of it was to minimize travel in those first two rounds, and get the kids back home in a reasonable amount of time since they had school the next day, when playoff games were played on Wednesday and Monday nights. Suffice it to say, that’s no longer an issue.

 

[ISUChip]

Did the MAC coaches and ADs welcome district football? Knowing you were always going to play the same 9 teams, year in and year out, had to be a drag.

 

[franky1967]

Your correct on this CF93, I look at the lower classes where several 8-1 teams get left out of the playoffs.

All they are doing is treating district football like they are Ranchers herding Cattle. One pre determined path.

I would have our districts be called rolling conferences where every game counts and go by the old point system.

Im sure their are a handful of schools that would not want this to change. Most the Schools are playing in districts where the other schools will never see the light of day.

Im trying to figure out why CF,West and East are always in the same district. I dont see the Iowa City Schools or Valley/Dowling in the same district. They could put CF in a West side district and still play East and West. They could do the same with East or West going towards a Dubuque District.

 

[KidSilverhair]

Did the MAC coaches and ADs welcome district football? Knowing you were always going to play the same 9 teams, year in and year out, had to be a drag.

I was just looking back at the thread from December 2013 when we were talking about district football possibly coming to the east side. Suffice it to say, that was driven almost entirely by the MAC schools (and a little bit by Wahlert, who just couldn't compete in 4A in the MVC). The MAC schools with the exception of Bettendorf felt that they couldn't get the proper preparation playing each other all season to compete against the MVC schools once the playoffs started (and that actually seemed to be true, with 1- or 2-loss MAC teams consistently losing to MVC opponents in the playoffs that had considerably worse records).

So maybe not so much because it was a drag playing the same teams each and every season, but having a season that prepared you well for playoff competition - that seemed to be the main driver behind the MAC even bringing up districts. There's plenty more in that old 2013 discussion, but in general, I think the MAC schools are fine with the district system.

 

[roosterk]

The wildcards stopped 8-1 teams from not making the playoffs switch except for 8-player where they choose not to have it. I think Lone Tree last year was the only one. 8-player has a few more teams than the 56 of the other but 7 districts would have been better and that wouldn't of happened.

 

[cruhawk]

Cedar Falls is only 3 hours and 44 minutes and that will drop another 10-15 minutes within the next few years. Highway 20 project has cut drive times down quite a bit to cities along that route. Looking at 7 hours compared to 11. I just don't think the state will ever seed 1-16. I like different match-ups, but there still needs to be some reasonable considerations.

Finishing highway 20 will turn a Sioux City to Iowa City trip into a 4 hour deal, and to the Quad Cities into a 5 hour trip. Even with 20 in its current unfinished state, it's still quicker than I-29 & I-80.